Today I want to make a quick video talking about the meta game and what you can expect long term. The reason I put out T6 speed farm videos with builds optimized specifically for fast clearing vs. greater rifts is because the latter has a finite end. Unless you can invest 10+ hours per day grinding for the top leaderboard spot, once you upgrade your gems there's nothing left outside of gaining more paragon levels and perfecting your gear, both of which happen faster in T6.
Although there are more things to do in D3 now than ever - seasons, non-seasons, wardens/ubers, bounties, rifts, greaters rift - the endgame is similar to what it was, just a lot more enjoyable. Enjoy!
With an optimized group, exp and gear grind is more efficient on 40 ish rifts. We still do fast split t6 rifts, which is fastest for shards, but not the most optimal for exp and gear.
there is no way 40+ is more efficient. Its nice that you think this highly of yourself though. Enough to covertly brag about what you pretend to be able to do.
There's nothing to brag about. If you have a good group capable of clearing the lower 40s without fail, then its more efficient exp wise. Gear wise, arguable, but the amount of exp you gain on the higher rifts is enormous. You dont have to clear that quickly as long as you can clear in the allotted time.
Put it this way, on rifts 44-46 or so, I gain about 3/4 of a bar of exp. That comes out to about 1.5b exp in less than 15mins (usually 13-14mins).
T6 speed rifts you gain about 300m in about a 4-5 min run.
I realize not everyone has the optimal group composition for higher rifts (if you want to know what optimal is look at the leaderboards for 4man teams, its no secret), but if you do it is more efficient.
@RasAlgethi: I agree that if you compare those two, GRs are better for XP and possibly on par in terms of gear.
However, imho T6 are still ahead, for several reasons:
1) Blood shards, as some mentioned already, can be used to specifically target a slot (even if it's amulets - with the amount of shards you get per hour, it doesn't really matter). And you still get a bit more on T6 (average 100) than on GR45 (average 220 or 250, IIRC).
2) In T6 rifts, one in group can take a break or play a bit "inefficient" without making too much of a difference. In a really fast GR45 run you can't allow for the tank/CC/DPS to go afk or it won't end well (best case some DPS loss, worst case wipe that costs you 1-2 minutes on a bad map). On GR45+ everyone needs to be more or less entirely committed to the runs, you can't switch out people frequently as easily, you can't just smash buttons without caring about the content. In T6, it's more like "brainless farming". It's a matter of preference - I like to do high GR for when we push content (i.e., improve our ranking), and go for T6 otherwise.
3) You need to do T6 anyways to get trial keys. I personally have hundreds, but there's always someone in group who has only 20 or 30 left...
4) In GR45+, there's only very few specs/classes you can play. In T6, almost every class works.
5) I think your time comparison if off. If you optimize your group setup that much that you can finish GR45 in 14 minutes on average, then I'd expect you to optimize your group setup for T6 such that you can finish those in 3-4 minutes or less on average (on good maps you can easily finish a T6 rift in 2-3 minutes which brings your "average" down significantly, so everything above 4 minutes average is equivalent to having an GR45 average of 18-20 minutes). Furthermore, you can't jump straight into a GR45 rift - you have to do the trial first, which takes about 3 minutes, including preparation and everything it bumps your GR45 average up to at least 17 minutes.
TL;DR: If you have a fixed group of 4 people that always play together, don't mind to stay focused for 4-5 hours, don't mind to play the same spec the entire time, and somehow farm their trial keys on their own, GR45 might be better. It also certainly helps to turn higher GRs into a routine, which is definitely a plus. If you, however, like to relax a bit and want about the same amount of gear, possibly play other classes, specs, with other people, and don't want to be focused, T6 is better for everything except XP.
@OP: Could you please make sure your posts/videos have the content in written form as well? Or does that text already cover everything? Imho, the most important thing that people forget when doing "T6 SPEED rifting" is to get classes that can actually do speed runs. That means no sentry DHs. In a decent T6 group, a DH won't be able to put down more than one sentry before any pack is dead. Imho, what you definitely want for T6 speed rifting are
1) An SWK monk with MoC-Annihilation for speed
2) A barb with Forced March and Chilanik's Chain for even more speed
3+4) Any two DPS classes that have direct damage (no Hydra wiz, no sentry DH, no pet WD); my guess is that Jade WD and Stampede crusader are probably the two best DPS classes for T6 at this point, but many other options work as well.
Bagstone, I dont disagree with any of that. Truth is I find I spend most of my time now doing T6 rifts since my gems are leveled but usually for a few hours a day when all the people I normally run high rifts with are on, we'll do efficient high runs which are better for exp. And that's all my point was.
Good post bag, just want to inject that a 4.15bp DH is nice for speed runs. Granted not everyone that plays DH has the required ias/tasker/weapon but that single sentry I lay down before vaulting past the mobs usually kills them all before I vault the 2nd time.
If only my WD luck was better and I had rings/amulet I could gem without destroying my chc/chd/elemental.
Look, I'm not saying DHs are completely useless. It doesn't matter if 2.84 or 4.15, the point is they can put down ONE sentry that shoots ONCE and maybe hit the mob ONCE. However, if you have an SWK monk dash into a pack and explode, and at the same time a Raekor barb jump straight into a pack, the pack will be dead before you're even there (you have to vault, then put sentries; a barb deals his damage with his charge itself, a monk can trigger SWK a split second after the dash). When we have a really fast T6 group going the DHs just say themselves they feel useless. Even a Stampede crusader (my favorite T6 class at the moment) is usually faster than a DH, from what several DHs have told me.
The point of T6 is that you can play any class, and as such a DH ain't that bad. It's just that sentry DH and Firebird's wiz really shine the longer the mobs live, and that's the opposite of T6 where almost everything dies within a second (maybe 2 seconds for big extra health packs). Most of the time you find yourself running around, and the most important thing therefore is to have Annihilation and Forced March for movement speed. If you don't have at least either a monk or a barb in group you will be significantly slower than any other T6 kill combination.
Stampede is faster than marauder thanks to mobility the horse gives. If the rift is empty, you just switch the weapon to get perma-horse and go trough level with maximum speed able to clip through creeps (the horse clips through creeps and destroys objects). You can't vault permanently without specific build / gear with DH, you can horse permanently with stampede but just switching weapon.
Also, the Pain gem allows you to clear trash by just popping one stampede and going further.. the gem kills every white there is.
You can just swap to Danetta's xbows and basically have the same effect. Horse might be faster, not sure (not a big crusader player here...).
But from what i've seen, stampede spam deals tons of damage and is arguably the fastest in clearing t6 right now.
You can just swap to Danetta's xbows and basically have the same effect. Horse might be faster, not sure (not a big crusader player here...).
But from what i've seen, stampede spam deals tons of damage and is arguably the fastest in clearing t6 right now.
Danetta's without suitable passives/skills don't really work, imho. Every time I try that on my DH I feel that I'm either much much much slower than on my other "mobility" setups (Swiftmount Crusader, even DS/Epiphany monk) or I have to sacrifice DPS (which of course is a no-go). As a crusader, you can use exactly your max DPS setup - no skills or passives necessary at all - and be at high-speed; only swap one (not two, as in the case of Danetta) weapon.
That's what silvach said, and I completely agree, just haven't thought about that. Danetta's only really shine with the right skill set, which will always cost you "some" DPS.
@Topic: Can someone who watched the video (I can't) give a summary of what OP said about class setups? Would be really interesting. Can't watch the video.
Danetta without the right passives is still very fast. Movement speed makes the animation faster which is why taking hot pursuit and tactical advantage is awesome. But still, Danetta without any changes to the "regular" dps build is still very fast. I do this all the time, including in key farming.
As a crusader, you can use exactly your max DPS setup - no skills or passives necessary at all - and be at high-speed; only swap one (not two, as in the case of Danetta) weapon.
That's the major drawback of Danettas imo. I use my DH for most of the non-rift stuff (Keywardens, Bounties) and have to manually swap the weapon setup all the time. Swapping the main hand is bad enough, the offhand however requires not only a right-click but a full drag'n'drop-maneuver. I suppose many players macro that somehow, but I'm not sure if that isn't too much against the ToS.
So in essence the Danetta set screams for the basic D2 feature of weapon-swap. And that's by far not the only benefit of this function. Crusaders could swap to their horse-weapon, any class could swap from a damage setup to a shield-setup, opening up a ton of tactical applications.
@OP: Could you please make sure your posts/videos have the content in written form as well? Or does that text already cover everything?
I typically provide a synopsis, but I can add a tl;dr in the future as well. 'Full' content in written form would amount to an audio transcript, which can get quite lengthy.
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With regards to the other posts, my goal with this video wasn't to show an optimal group composition or anything - people just start assuming. I was simply talking about my thoughts on endgame past the finite end of greater rifts. I will be releasing progressively higher xp/hour group multi-run videos so you can compare to greater rifts. I already have one done - not an optimized group but just casual play - at 5.5b/hr. Apparently some optimized/organized groups in our clan have said they're capable of breaking 7-8b/hr, but we'll see.
As for greater rifts, 1) the claims listed here are anecdotal without any actual timed runs to back them up and 2) you're completely negating the time it takes to do trials, AND as Bagstone mentioned T6 speed rifts are a lot more forgiving. If you're trying to compete for drops/xp in 40+ grifts, you have to be on the ball ALL the time, AND you're at the mercy of RNG. If the group ever wipes on a bad map, there's your xp/hr down the drain. I like the scaling blizz has implemented with greater rifts, but it's just not competitive with t6 speed rifting for ANYTHING. Yes you get legs at the end of a greater, but you get tons of legs doing speed t6 as well. Yes RNG is RNG and it's possible to go an entire t6 rift without a single leg, but it's also possible to get 10 in a run (I have, twice now). Grifts are a bit more normalized so you can 'expect' legendaries at the end, but you'll never hit the pinata.
or you could alt + right click and get your 2'nd danettas into your "offhand" - just a small hint
Thanks a lot!
OP: I'd prefer relevant gameplay when I watch a video on any topic. If you just talk and fool around, you might as well write it down. That's easier for most forum users, I suppose.
Your point is fair and the information I was looking for has been revealed through the answers in this thread (like which class, which spec etc). So thanks for starting the topic.
To piggyback off my 'fast T6 rifts are endgame' video, I'll be doing a small series - over time - of progressively higher xp/hour group runs. In this first video we do 3 timed runs and average 5.5 billion xp/hour. This is by no means an organized group, but it does give you an idea of what you can expect when playing with 3 well geared people. With heavy optimization, I believe somewhere between 7-8 billion is possible. Enjoy!
I'll be updating the OP with these videos as they become available ... wonder how high I can get.
Although there are more things to do in D3 now than ever - seasons, non-seasons, wardens/ubers, bounties, rifts, greaters rift - the endgame is similar to what it was, just a lot more enjoyable. Enjoy!
http://youtu.be/eM6bYfmHyvk
Timed runs:
5.5 billion xp/hr:
http://youtu.be/1YcOPS2oTFo
MeatHeadGaming - YouTube - Twitch - Facebook - Web
Put it this way, on rifts 44-46 or so, I gain about 3/4 of a bar of exp. That comes out to about 1.5b exp in less than 15mins (usually 13-14mins).
T6 speed rifts you gain about 300m in about a 4-5 min run.
I realize not everyone has the optimal group composition for higher rifts (if you want to know what optimal is look at the leaderboards for 4man teams, its no secret), but if you do it is more efficient.
However, imho T6 are still ahead, for several reasons:
1) Blood shards, as some mentioned already, can be used to specifically target a slot (even if it's amulets - with the amount of shards you get per hour, it doesn't really matter). And you still get a bit more on T6 (average 100) than on GR45 (average 220 or 250, IIRC).
2) In T6 rifts, one in group can take a break or play a bit "inefficient" without making too much of a difference. In a really fast GR45 run you can't allow for the tank/CC/DPS to go afk or it won't end well (best case some DPS loss, worst case wipe that costs you 1-2 minutes on a bad map). On GR45+ everyone needs to be more or less entirely committed to the runs, you can't switch out people frequently as easily, you can't just smash buttons without caring about the content. In T6, it's more like "brainless farming". It's a matter of preference - I like to do high GR for when we push content (i.e., improve our ranking), and go for T6 otherwise.
3) You need to do T6 anyways to get trial keys. I personally have hundreds, but there's always someone in group who has only 20 or 30 left...
4) In GR45+, there's only very few specs/classes you can play. In T6, almost every class works.
5) I think your time comparison if off. If you optimize your group setup that much that you can finish GR45 in 14 minutes on average, then I'd expect you to optimize your group setup for T6 such that you can finish those in 3-4 minutes or less on average (on good maps you can easily finish a T6 rift in 2-3 minutes which brings your "average" down significantly, so everything above 4 minutes average is equivalent to having an GR45 average of 18-20 minutes). Furthermore, you can't jump straight into a GR45 rift - you have to do the trial first, which takes about 3 minutes, including preparation and everything it bumps your GR45 average up to at least 17 minutes.
TL;DR: If you have a fixed group of 4 people that always play together, don't mind to stay focused for 4-5 hours, don't mind to play the same spec the entire time, and somehow farm their trial keys on their own, GR45 might be better. It also certainly helps to turn higher GRs into a routine, which is definitely a plus. If you, however, like to relax a bit and want about the same amount of gear, possibly play other classes, specs, with other people, and don't want to be focused, T6 is better for everything except XP.
@OP: Could you please make sure your posts/videos have the content in written form as well? Or does that text already cover everything? Imho, the most important thing that people forget when doing "T6 SPEED rifting" is to get classes that can actually do speed runs. That means no sentry DHs. In a decent T6 group, a DH won't be able to put down more than one sentry before any pack is dead. Imho, what you definitely want for T6 speed rifting are
1) An SWK monk with MoC-Annihilation for speed
2) A barb with Forced March and Chilanik's Chain for even more speed
3+4) Any two DPS classes that have direct damage (no Hydra wiz, no sentry DH, no pet WD); my guess is that Jade WD and Stampede crusader are probably the two best DPS classes for T6 at this point, but many other options work as well.
If only my WD luck was better and I had rings/amulet I could gem without destroying my chc/chd/elemental.
The point of T6 is that you can play any class, and as such a DH ain't that bad. It's just that sentry DH and Firebird's wiz really shine the longer the mobs live, and that's the opposite of T6 where almost everything dies within a second (maybe 2 seconds for big extra health packs). Most of the time you find yourself running around, and the most important thing therefore is to have Annihilation and Forced March for movement speed. If you don't have at least either a monk or a barb in group you will be significantly slower than any other T6 kill combination.
But from what i've seen, stampede spam deals tons of damage and is arguably the fastest in clearing t6 right now.
Danetta's without suitable passives/skills don't really work, imho. Every time I try that on my DH I feel that I'm either much much much slower than on my other "mobility" setups (Swiftmount Crusader, even DS/Epiphany monk) or I have to sacrifice DPS (which of course is a no-go). As a crusader, you can use exactly your max DPS setup - no skills or passives necessary at all - and be at high-speed; only swap one (not two, as in the case of Danetta) weapon.
That's what silvach said, and I completely agree, just haven't thought about that. Danetta's only really shine with the right skill set, which will always cost you "some" DPS.
@Topic: Can someone who watched the video (I can't) give a summary of what OP said about class setups? Would be really interesting. Can't watch the video.
So in essence the Danetta set screams for the basic D2 feature of weapon-swap. And that's by far not the only benefit of this function. Crusaders could swap to their horse-weapon, any class could swap from a damage setup to a shield-setup, opening up a ton of tactical applications.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
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With regards to the other posts, my goal with this video wasn't to show an optimal group composition or anything - people just start assuming. I was simply talking about my thoughts on endgame past the finite end of greater rifts. I will be releasing progressively higher xp/hour group multi-run videos so you can compare to greater rifts. I already have one done - not an optimized group but just casual play - at 5.5b/hr. Apparently some optimized/organized groups in our clan have said they're capable of breaking 7-8b/hr, but we'll see.
As for greater rifts, 1) the claims listed here are anecdotal without any actual timed runs to back them up and 2) you're completely negating the time it takes to do trials, AND as Bagstone mentioned T6 speed rifts are a lot more forgiving. If you're trying to compete for drops/xp in 40+ grifts, you have to be on the ball ALL the time, AND you're at the mercy of RNG. If the group ever wipes on a bad map, there's your xp/hr down the drain. I like the scaling blizz has implemented with greater rifts, but it's just not competitive with t6 speed rifting for ANYTHING. Yes you get legs at the end of a greater, but you get tons of legs doing speed t6 as well. Yes RNG is RNG and it's possible to go an entire t6 rift without a single leg, but it's also possible to get 10 in a run (I have, twice now). Grifts are a bit more normalized so you can 'expect' legendaries at the end, but you'll never hit the pinata.
MeatHeadGaming - YouTube - Twitch - Facebook - Web
OP: I'd prefer relevant gameplay when I watch a video on any topic. If you just talk and fool around, you might as well write it down. That's easier for most forum users, I suppose.
Your point is fair and the information I was looking for has been revealed through the answers in this thread (like which class, which spec etc). So thanks for starting the topic.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
To piggyback off my 'fast T6 rifts are endgame' video, I'll be doing a small series - over time - of progressively higher xp/hour group runs. In this first video we do 3 timed runs and average 5.5 billion xp/hour. This is by no means an organized group, but it does give you an idea of what you can expect when playing with 3 well geared people. With heavy optimization, I believe somewhere between 7-8 billion is possible. Enjoy!
I'll be updating the OP with these videos as they become available ... wonder how high I can get.
http://youtu.be/1YcOPS2oTFo
MeatHeadGaming - YouTube - Twitch - Facebook - Web