Seeing that some top tier sets have been previewed on the Community Site, I've started crunching some numbers.
If a player would obtain 4 pieces (all items except the Mojo) of the Zunimassa's Spirit, and the complete Manajuma's Ritual, he/she would gain, on average, the following stats:
3099.75 Armor
+0.785 Attacks Per Second
+55.5 Poison Resistance
+40 Resistance to all elements
+38 Life After Each Kill
+58 Mana per Kill (Witch Doctor Only)
+700.5 Mana (Witch Doctor Only)
+38% Critical Hit Damage
+12% Movement Speed
+90.5% Life
Regenerates 24.9 Life per Second
Attackers Take +31 Damage
+285.5% Damage
+22.5% Casting Speed
+214.5 Defense
20% Damage Dealt is Converted to Life
+23 to all Attributes
+245 Life
27% Better Chance of Finding Magical Items
+8 Random Properties
The maximum stats that could be gained are:
3723 Armor
+60 Poison Resistance
+40 Resistance to all elements
+39 Life After Each Kill
+59 Mana per Kill (Witch Doctor Only)
+800 Mana (Witch Doctor Only)
+40% Critical Hit Damage
+12% Movement Speed
+100% Life
Regenerates 28.4 Life per Second
Attackers Take +32 Damage
+25% Casting Speed
+217 Defense
20% Damage Dealt is Converted to Life
+23 to all Attributes
+245 Life
29% Better Chance of Finding Magical Items
+8 Random Properties
Leaving your weapon with:
135.71 to 589.18 Damage
Average: 362,445
2.21 Attacks Per Second
--------------
801.00345 Damage per second
Now. I applied the average damage to some runed skills. The following is the list of 6 highest DPS skills:
Very nice calculations. Great to see damage per mana ;). What is the point of this build? Is it to support groups as pure dps, while other tank for you and heal?
This is more of a glass-cannon type of a build. You can kite, while you are low hp (bats, haunt, dart), or do huge AoE (bats, toads, spiders, grasp), but you shouldn't let anyone get near you. So I would say you should use this only if you have a tank.
You could replace a skill (I would suggest firebats because toads tend to be better) with a tanky summon, like alabaster dogs or any non-gold gargantuan so that you maintain most of you're power, drop a channeled/expensive skill and gain a few meat shields to keep the damage at bay. Alabaster dogs also heal you!
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If that made sense to you, Bravo! I think I even confused myself...
Too much focused on dmg, you won't be able to use everything you got at once. Besides such build completly lacks utility and survivability. I would bet on it being completly unviable in solo setting inferno and inferior to many different builds for group setting.
I would bet on it being completly unviable in solo setting inferno and inferior to many different builds for group setting.
Yup. It's getting a little late for me to point out all the glaring deficiencies of logic in this build, but I might get around to it tomorrow if no one's beat me to it (not to be a dick).
Compared with the amount of mana needed, the next list of skills contains the most economic:
Grasp of the Dead (crimson) - 78,78/mana
Corpse Spider (indigo) - 40,77/mana (if a baby spider bites 1x each sec)
Plague of Toads (crimson) - 24,60/mana
Haunt (any) - 20,52/mana
Poison Dart (crimson) - 9,12/mana
Zombie Charger (alabaster) - 4,98/mana
Let's keep in mind you claim this is the "statistically highest DPS" build for the WD:
Let's get semantics out of the way first. There's no statistics in this thread (so far), so the title is misleading and erroneous. Your build is just a hodgepodge of skills which, according to your calculations, do the most damage. There's a difference. Probably a significant one (statistics joke!).
You seem to only take weapon damage into account when calculating your numbers (there are several other stats that affect damage, of course). For the sake of simplicity, we'll ignore this fact for now, though if you want to make the "statistically highest DPS" build, you wouldn't be able to.
Your list of "highest DPS" skills are actually the highest damage skills per cast (assuming all your numbers are otherwise correct; I'm not gonna go through the trouble of checking them). This has significant implications when you're claiming to be calculating DPS. Let's take Haunt for example. You actually calculate the DPS of Haunt with any rune as 145 (though this isn't correct either, as an Alabaster rune significantly increases its DPS, but decreases its DPC), but then list it as doing 2175 damage, the second highest on the list. This is over 15 seconds though. Haunt will never be the WD's second-highest DPS skill. It's going to be extremely difficult to calculate an accurate DPS number for a lot of WD skills, because there are so many variables that go into it (Haunt will always do its damage to the target you cast it on, for example, but Plague of Toads just hops around until an enemy steps on one, reducing its DPS all the while).
None of your numbers take into account targets. Most AoE skills, for example, will probably result in much, much higher DPS in most - not all - situations than a single-target skill like Poison Dart. That's just how Diablo works.
Your claim of "statistically highest DPS" is further flawed by the fact that you take two skills (Grasp and Spiders) that don't, even based on your calculations, do good DPS. They're efficient in terms of mana, sure, but that doesn't make them good spells for high DPS.
Skill rotations will play a huge role in determining DPS and this isn't taken into account at all. You won't be able to cast Plague of Toads while you're channeling Firebats, for example.
I'm sure there are more similar points that could be brought up, but I think this is sufficient for starters.
I would bet on it being completly unviable in solo setting inferno and inferior to many different builds for group setting.
Yup. It's getting a little late for me to point out all the glaring deficiencies of logic in this build, but I might get around to it tomorrow if no one's beat me to it (not to be a dick).
Compared with the amount of mana needed, the next list of skills contains the most economic:
Grasp of the Dead (crimson) - 78,78/mana
Corpse Spider (indigo) - 40,77/mana (if a baby spider bites 1x each sec)
Plague of Toads (crimson) - 24,60/mana
Haunt (any) - 20,52/mana
Poison Dart (crimson) - 9,12/mana
Zombie Charger (alabaster) - 4,98/mana
Let's keep in mind you claim this is the "statistically highest DPS" build for the WD:
Let's get semantics out of the way first. There's no statistics in this thread (so far), so the title is misleading and erroneous. Your build is just a hodgepodge of skills which, according to your calculations, do the most damage. There's a difference. Probably a significant one (statistics joke!).
You seem to only take weapon damage into account when calculating your numbers (there are several other stats that affect damage, of course). For the sake of simplicity, we'll ignore this fact for now, though if you want to make the "statistically highest DPS" build, you wouldn't be able to.
Your list of "highest DPS" skills are actually the highest damage skills per cast (assuming all your numbers are otherwise correct; I'm not gonna go through the trouble of checking them). This has significant implications when you're claiming to be calculating DPS. Let's take Haunt for example. You actually calculate the DPS of Haunt with any rune as 145 (though this isn't correct either, as an Alabaster rune significantly increases its DPS, but decreases its DPC), but then list it as doing 2175 damage, the second highest on the list. This is over 15 seconds though. Haunt will never be the WD's second-highest DPS skill. It's going to be extremely difficult to calculate an accurate DPS number for a lot of WD skills, because there are so many variables that go into it (Haunt will always do its damage to the target you cast it on, for example, but Plague of Toads just hops around until an enemy steps on one, reducing its DPS all the while).
None of your numbers take into account targets. Most AoE skills, for example, will probably result in much, much higher DPS in most - not all - situations than a single-target skill like Poison Dart. That's just how Diablo works.
Your claim of "statistically highest DPS" is further flawed by the fact that you take two skills (Grasp and Spiders) that don't, even based on your calculations, do good DPS. They're efficient in terms of mana, sure, but that doesn't make them good spells for high DPS.
Skill rotations will play a huge role in determining DPS and this isn't taken into account at all. You won't be able to cast Plague of Toads while you're channeling Firebats, for example.
I'm sure there are more similar points that could be brought up, but I think this is sufficient for starters.
I held the statistics for myself, as I think that most people would find it boring, and in the intrest of not making walls of dry text, I didn't add them.
I am aware that other stats should be taken into account, but I don't have access to them, so I left them out, but since all are applied equally to all skills, they are not as important as they could seam.
Haunt is the second highest damage skill, as you have noticed, and if runed with alabaster, the damage is actually decreased, but (as you have already noted) the DPS is higher. This skill is on the list, because: you can cast 3 at the same time (3x higher DPS), it can jump from a target to a target, overall, in a battle with an inferno, hard to kill monster, they will deliver most or all of their possible damage. Looking at damage per cast, and damage per mana spent, Haunt is surely in the top 6, especially if runed with gold runestone.
All of the numbers were calculated for a single target, as you cannot predict how many enemies there will be in a PvE fight. I wanted to calculate the numbers for other situations as well, but it seamed to random for most of AoEs (especially plague of toads). Those calculations should have accounted for different densities of mobs and different amounts of targets in them, but it was too much work.
The other reason I didn't do them is that if you have numbers for a single target damage AoE, you will get the base of all the potential damage it could do given the range. In all, Plague of Toads should be THE HIGHEST AoE DPS spell in WD's arsenal.
The mana efficiency of a skill can easily determine it's DPS and Damage, because if you run out of mana while using it, you will quickly be left using your weapon. But never mind that. The point is that the mana efficiency is just an added bonus, ass you may have noticed, they do not appear on the damage scale.
Neither will you be able to channel firebats while casting plague of toads.
The whole list of skills is aimed to give you a general idea of damage each skill can do. Some of the skills are not meant to be used in PvP, and some in PvE. The build I made was not intended to be used in either as is. It's just a blueprint. A base for upgrading. I cannot claim that it will deliver the highset DPS in EVERY situation, not that it will give you better survivability, as it surely won't.
The biggest surprise for me was the Poison Dart. It shouldn't be used in any situation other than PvP or boss fights, but the fact still remains, it IS one of the highest potential damage dealers that you can use.
As for Spiders. I'm not sure how the alabaster skill will work, but due to its mana efficiency, it is deserving of its place in that Top 6.
If you are that interested in the calculations, I will upload them to googledocs and post the link here.
BTW
If we are going to be "searching for a hair in the egg" as the elderly in my country would say, then you could have noted the following:
Why was only the top gear put into the equation?
Why aren't there any Shoulder Pads, Belts, Amulets and where is the other Ring?
Where is your reference to the total pull of mana? etc.
That kind of accuracy I reserve only for scientific work that I would/will do. Wasting time on precise calculations of skills in a video game that is still in development and susceptible to change (the skills and skills stats especially) is not something that I should be doing. In the interest of what I just wrote, I should refer to the rules 11, 12, 14, 15, 20, 25 and 26.
i. You're not taking in consideration the cast animation. For example, plague of toads is much, much slower then most WD spells while poison dart is really fast. Corpse Spiders are also really slow.
ii. You're not taking in consideration the hittability and the risk evolved in casting stuff like plague of toads. This spell does not only have a slow cast speed, but the prejectiles (toads) are slow and go out in random directions. Consider it a melee spell.
iii. 4 of 6 spells in your build are spammable and cannot overlap their damage. You cannot cast Toads, firebats, darts and spiders at the same time. Using one or two or all four of those skills won't increase your damage at all. It's like using Bash, Cleave and Frenzy at the same barb build.
iv. You don't have means to stop enemies from killing you. Your only CC is grasp of the dead and it has a small area and a cooldown. It won't stop a boss from charging and crushing you, it won't help you when a monster summon 5 minions just behind you, it won't save you when monsters are coming from all directions or have a few ranged attackers in their ranks.
v. You're using Blood Ritual but you have zero means to recover health. Not to mention that you're increasing the MP cost (and the damage your spells do to you) with Pierce the Veil. Thats really unsynergic and dangerous. And your damage is not even that high (someone using just poison dart + acid cloud will problably outdamage you).
It kinda annoys me that you proclaim your Vermin Doctor have the higest DPS when he actually don't have the higest DPS, don't even have ways to survive to actually deal any DPS and even claim that you're statiscally correct =/
considering you can't spam all 6 spells at once or even 3 really replace 2 of them with dogs and then sacrifice, which is THE most powerful spell in the game besides a crimson'd lvl 7 meteor. 800% dmg explosion with a alabaster rune i think it is to give a chance for dogs to resurrect would make this build 10x more viable and easier to menuver without losing any dps. maybe even gaining DPS because you could potentially spam sacrifice (at least a couple times) because it has no CD and the dogs will have a very high chance to reappear. and you can re cast zombie dogs every 1 min and explode them again 2-3 times or possibly if your lucky even more.
i. You're not taking in consideration the cast animation. For example, plague of toads is much, much slower then most WD spells while poison dart is really fast. Corpse Spiders are also really slow.
ii. You're not taking in consideration the hittability and the risk evolved in casting stuff like plague of toads. This spell does not only have a slow cast speed, but the prejectiles (toads) are slow and go out in random directions. Consider it a melee spell.
iii. 4 of 6 spells in your build are spammable and cannot overlap their damage. You cannot cast Toads, firebats, darts and spiders at the same time. Using one or two or all four of those skills won't increase your damage at all. It's like using Bash, Cleave and Frenzy at the same barb build.
iv. You don't have means to stop enemies from killing you. Your only CC is grasp of the dead and it has a small area and a cooldown. It won't stop a boss from charging and crushing you, it won't help you when a monster summon 5 minions just behind you, it won't save you when monsters are coming from all directions or have a few ranged attackers in their ranks.
v. You're using Blood Ritual but you have zero means to recover health. Not to mention that you're increasing the MP cost (and the damage your spells do to you) with Pierce the Veil. Thats really unsynergic and dangerous. And your damage is not even that high (someone using just poison dart + acid cloud will problably outdamage you).
It kinda annoys me that you proclaim your Vermin Doctor have the higest DPS when he actually don't have the higest DPS, don't even have ways to survive to actually deal any DPS and even claim that you're statiscally correct =/
I didn't proclaim anything for MY vermin doctor. Please read all posts before posting yourself.
The intention of this topic was to give you a general idea of the amount of damage that each spell does. The numbers are very different now. I might repost this thread with higher accuracy information later during the week.
If a player would obtain 4 pieces (all items except the Mojo) of the Zunimassa's Spirit, and the complete Manajuma's Ritual, he/she would gain, on average, the following stats:
3099.75 Armor
+0.785 Attacks Per Second
+55.5 Poison Resistance
+40 Resistance to all elements
+38 Life After Each Kill
+58 Mana per Kill (Witch Doctor Only)
+700.5 Mana (Witch Doctor Only)
+38% Critical Hit Damage
+12% Movement Speed
+90.5% Life
Regenerates 24.9 Life per Second
Attackers Take +31 Damage
+285.5% Damage
+22.5% Casting Speed
+214.5 Defense
20% Damage Dealt is Converted to Life
+23 to all Attributes
+245 Life
27% Better Chance of Finding Magical Items
+8 Random Properties
The maximum stats that could be gained are:
3723 Armor
+60 Poison Resistance
+40 Resistance to all elements
+39 Life After Each Kill
+59 Mana per Kill (Witch Doctor Only)
+800 Mana (Witch Doctor Only)
+40% Critical Hit Damage
+12% Movement Speed
+100% Life
Regenerates 28.4 Life per Second
Attackers Take +32 Damage
+25% Casting Speed
+217 Defense
20% Damage Dealt is Converted to Life
+23 to all Attributes
+245 Life
29% Better Chance of Finding Magical Items
+8 Random Properties
Leaving your weapon with:
135.71 to 589.18 Damage
Average: 362,445
2.21 Attacks Per Second
--------------
801.00345 Damage per second
Now. I applied the average damage to some runed skills. The following is the list of 6 highest DPS skills:
Plague of Toads (crimson) - 1730/toad (5191 total)
Haunt (any) - 145/s (2175 total)
Firebats (crimson) - 1649/s
Poison Dart (crimson) - 1605
Wall of Zombies (alabaster) - 1414
Acid Cloud (crimson) - 1414
Compared with the amount of mana needed, the next list of skills contains the most economic:
Grasp of the Dead (crimson) - 78,78/mana
Corpse Spider (indigo) - 40,77/mana (if a baby spider bites 1x each sec)
Plague of Toads (crimson) - 24,60/mana
Haunt (any) - 20,52/mana
Poison Dart (crimson) - 9,12/mana
Zombie Charger (alabaster) - 4,98/mana
This led me to making this build: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#ZcVaWY!Zdc!ZbZZYZ
This is more of a glass-cannon type of a build. You can kite, while you are low hp (bats, haunt, dart), or do huge AoE (bats, toads, spiders, grasp), but you shouldn't let anyone get near you. So I would say you should use this only if you have a tank.
Yup. It's getting a little late for me to point out all the glaring deficiencies of logic in this build, but I might get around to it tomorrow if no one's beat me to it (not to be a dick).
OK, let's see...
Let's keep in mind you claim this is the "statistically highest DPS" build for the WD:
I'm sure there are more similar points that could be brought up, but I think this is sufficient for starters.
The whole list of skills is aimed to give you a general idea of damage each skill can do. Some of the skills are not meant to be used in PvP, and some in PvE. The build I made was not intended to be used in either as is. It's just a blueprint. A base for upgrading. I cannot claim that it will deliver the highset DPS in EVERY situation, not that it will give you better survivability, as it surely won't.
The biggest surprise for me was the Poison Dart. It shouldn't be used in any situation other than PvP or boss fights, but the fact still remains, it IS one of the highest potential damage dealers that you can use.
As for Spiders. I'm not sure how the alabaster skill will work, but due to its mana efficiency, it is deserving of its place in that Top 6.
If you are that interested in the calculations, I will upload them to googledocs and post the link here.
BTW
If we are going to be "searching for a hair in the egg" as the elderly in my country would say, then you could have noted the following:
That kind of accuracy I reserve only for scientific work that I would/will do. Wasting time on precise calculations of skills in a video game that is still in development and susceptible to change (the skills and skills stats especially) is not something that I should be doing. In the interest of what I just wrote, I should refer to the rules 11, 12, 14, 15, 20, 25 and 26.
i. You're not taking in consideration the cast animation. For example, plague of toads is much, much slower then most WD spells while poison dart is really fast. Corpse Spiders are also really slow.
ii. You're not taking in consideration the hittability and the risk evolved in casting stuff like plague of toads. This spell does not only have a slow cast speed, but the prejectiles (toads) are slow and go out in random directions. Consider it a melee spell.
iii. 4 of 6 spells in your build are spammable and cannot overlap their damage. You cannot cast Toads, firebats, darts and spiders at the same time. Using one or two or all four of those skills won't increase your damage at all. It's like using Bash, Cleave and Frenzy at the same barb build.
iv. You don't have means to stop enemies from killing you. Your only CC is grasp of the dead and it has a small area and a cooldown. It won't stop a boss from charging and crushing you, it won't help you when a monster summon 5 minions just behind you, it won't save you when monsters are coming from all directions or have a few ranged attackers in their ranks.
v. You're using Blood Ritual but you have zero means to recover health. Not to mention that you're increasing the MP cost (and the damage your spells do to you) with Pierce the Veil. Thats really unsynergic and dangerous. And your damage is not even that high (someone using just poison dart + acid cloud will problably outdamage you).
It kinda annoys me that you proclaim your Vermin Doctor have the higest DPS when he actually don't have the higest DPS, don't even have ways to survive to actually deal any DPS and even claim that you're statiscally correct =/
I didn't proclaim anything for MY vermin doctor. Please read all posts before posting yourself.
The intention of this topic was to give you a general idea of the amount of damage that each spell does. The numbers are very different now. I might repost this thread with higher accuracy information later during the week.