Coming from M6 I never thought much of it as being a problematic affix. Of course you could shoot away from it and still get some damage in from sentries but it wasn't unusual to land a CA while reflect was up now and then and it took maybe a quarter of my life. If that. I've switched to a UE fire Arsenal build and a single MS while reflect is up one shots me. What's changed? I was never very clear on the mechanics of Reflect Damage to begin with because it never was a problem. Is it simply because a single MS shot does so much more damage than a single CA did? At this point for me I'm basically skipping them in anything over 40 because they just take too much time due to a single mistake killing me.
I use the UE Ball Lightning Build. Though I still die with regularity against a reflect pack, sometimes you just have to do damage and die for the greater good. I actually just spam MS when the reflect is on, since it hurts a lot less than the Ball Lightning.
MS-Arsenal has a proc coefficient of 18%, CA-SS/CA-MS has a proc coefficient of 20%. Reflect damage directly scales with the proc coefficient (you can test this on Siegebreaker).
Let's say hitting with a proc coefficient of 100% (e.g. Entangling Shot) will deal 100k damage to you.
Some scenarios:
1 target:
MS: 18 (AoE) + 18 (Rocket) = 36
CA: 20 (AoE) + 20 (Rocket) = 40
2 targets:
MS: 36 (AoE) + 36 (Rockets) = 72
CA: 40 (AoE) + 40 (Rockets) = 80
3 targets:
MS: 54 (AoE) + 54 (Rockets) = 108
CA: 60 (AoE) + 60 (Rockets) = 120
At this point let's say every additional target has only a 50% chance to get hit by Cluster Arrow (because it's a small aoe effect) and you use Shooting Stars, so no more additional rockets for both MS and CA.
4 targets:
MS: 72 (AoE) + 54 (Rockets) = 126
CA: 70 (AoE) + 60 (Rockets) = 130
5 targets:
MS: 90 (AoE) + 54 (Rockets) = 144
CA: 80 (AoE) + 60 (Rockets) = 140
At this point let's say every additional target has a 25% chance to get hit by the CA impact.
6 targets:
MS: 108 (AoE) + 54 (Rockets) = 162
CA: 85 (AoE) + 60 (Rockets) = 145
7 targets:
MS: 126 (AoE) + 54 (Rockets) = 180
CA: 90 (AoE) + 60 (Rockets) = 150
8 targets:
MS: 144 (AoE) + 54 (Rockets) = 198
CA: 95 (AoE) + 60 (Rockets) = 155
9 targets:
MS: 162 (AoE) + 54 (Rockets) = 216
CA: 100 (AoE) + 60 (Rockets) = 160
10 targets:
MS: 180 (AoE) + 54 (Rockets) = 234
CA: 105 (AoE) + 60 (Rockets) = 165
To sum it up, the difference is very small for few targets and get increasingly worse for more targets if you use MS, but in the end it's just a ~10-20% more damage you take from reflect compared to before. Obviously, you can't use your sentries to deal with reflect anymore while you're shooting against a wall, but they weren't doing that much without your self cast damage anyway. A good thing about UE is that you have ~double the discipline at your disposal (because of mandatory rolls on items + Preparation - Invigoration), so skipping has become an option now if you manage to stabilize after that, which is a lot easier to do because you don't need ramp-up time (in the form of setting up 5 sentries) and the ~tripled discipline regeneration you have compared to M6. Since we are using Focus + Restraint as well as no Preparation - Punishment (less risk of capping hatred) and (at least on season) no Taeguk anymore, engaging reflect packs shouldn't cause a lot of trouble anyway compared to 2.1.2.
Thanks for the extremely informative post, wudijo. And I'm assuming nothing's been changed in regards to Reflects caps right? It's still a max of 10% of the mobs health total?
Think Dead Man's Legacy may hold a big factor of the spike's of lethal damage as well.
Actually I haven't tested yet if DML makes you proc twice as much, it would make sense if you are really having a lot more problems than previously with M6.
Also, I don't know anything about reflect caps, because I usually get oneshot by a single proc of anything anyway. I doubt there is such a thing actually.
How did you not have problems with reflect in marauder? On higher rifts I die almost instantly if I even touch a pack with reflect on.
Well, it was easier to at least still do some damage through your sentries while not directly hitting the pack with your own spender, then get a few shots in while reflect was down, rinse and repeat. With this setup I'm finding reflect much worse because there is nothing to do while reflect is up really but kite. And I'm finding that the pets did a lot more tanking than I originally suspected, because just kiting while reflect is up with even slightly fast mobs it ends up being a death sentence.
I have tested DML on Siegebraker last night and in fact you do get double reflects. So that's probably the reason why you're having so much more trouble than before.
I dropped a Crashing Rain a couple days ago so last night I figured I'd try out a Natalya's build. Even in very non-optimized gear the damage is pretty silly and I found, oddly, that even though Stampede is consistently is hitting for billions it does way less damage to you when reflect is up than either EF- Focus or MS. I really don't get the underlying mechanics of reflect damage. Perhaps, with Stampede anyway, the knockback had some effect on Reflect.
that even though Stampede is consistently is hitting for billions it does way less damage to you when reflect is up than either EF- Focus or MS. I really don't get the underlying mechanics of reflect damage. Perhaps, with Stampede anyway, the knockback had some effect on Reflect.
MS-Arsenal has a proc coefficient of 18%, CA-SS/CA-MS has a proc coefficient of 20%. Reflect damage directly scales with the proc coefficient (you can test this on Siegebreaker).
Let's say hitting with a proc coefficient of 100% (e.g. Entangling Shot) will deal 100k damage to you.
My assumption is that Rov coefficient is very low, either way , i die really fast off strafe damage while both nat 6 set and bastion of will buffs are up, if i'm in wing it mode.
Kinda off topic but to all the dh's out there that play with a zdps crus in group, attempting high GR; You can point out the following fact to your crusader friend: It is possible to pull reflect packs away from the stream of lightning balls. Under the right conditions, a crusader can save the dh's by moving the pack to the side for a bit and then possibly pulling them back again. It requires some things to be viable though, like a non-cave map, not a crazy density map, coordination with the wd, not a pack with horde and mainly small packs of 3 champs.
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Coming from M6 I never thought much of it as being a problematic affix. Of course you could shoot away from it and still get some damage in from sentries but it wasn't unusual to land a CA while reflect was up now and then and it took maybe a quarter of my life. If that. I've switched to a UE fire Arsenal build and a single MS while reflect is up one shots me. What's changed? I was never very clear on the mechanics of Reflect Damage to begin with because it never was a problem. Is it simply because a single MS shot does so much more damage than a single CA did? At this point for me I'm basically skipping them in anything over 40 because they just take too much time due to a single mistake killing me.
Amen to that !!!! i miss marauders mindlessly put down turrets and whammy !!!! bye bye reflect.....
Now its like oh noes reflect dmg GG i cant spam need to use my brain hahahaha
I use the UE Ball Lightning Build. Though I still die with regularity against a reflect pack, sometimes you just have to do damage and die for the greater good. I actually just spam MS when the reflect is on, since it hurts a lot less than the Ball Lightning.
MS-Arsenal has a proc coefficient of 18%, CA-SS/CA-MS has a proc coefficient of 20%. Reflect damage directly scales with the proc coefficient (you can test this on Siegebreaker).
Let's say hitting with a proc coefficient of 100% (e.g. Entangling Shot) will deal 100k damage to you.
Some scenarios:
1 target:
MS: 18 (AoE) + 18 (Rocket) = 36
CA: 20 (AoE) + 20 (Rocket) = 40
2 targets:
MS: 36 (AoE) + 36 (Rockets) = 72
CA: 40 (AoE) + 40 (Rockets) = 80
3 targets:
MS: 54 (AoE) + 54 (Rockets) = 108
CA: 60 (AoE) + 60 (Rockets) = 120
At this point let's say every additional target has only a 50% chance to get hit by Cluster Arrow (because it's a small aoe effect) and you use Shooting Stars, so no more additional rockets for both MS and CA.
4 targets:
MS: 72 (AoE) + 54 (Rockets) = 126
CA: 70 (AoE) + 60 (Rockets) = 130
5 targets:
MS: 90 (AoE) + 54 (Rockets) = 144
CA: 80 (AoE) + 60 (Rockets) = 140
At this point let's say every additional target has a 25% chance to get hit by the CA impact.
6 targets:
MS: 108 (AoE) + 54 (Rockets) = 162
CA: 85 (AoE) + 60 (Rockets) = 145
7 targets:
MS: 126 (AoE) + 54 (Rockets) = 180
CA: 90 (AoE) + 60 (Rockets) = 150
8 targets:
MS: 144 (AoE) + 54 (Rockets) = 198
CA: 95 (AoE) + 60 (Rockets) = 155
9 targets:
MS: 162 (AoE) + 54 (Rockets) = 216
CA: 100 (AoE) + 60 (Rockets) = 160
10 targets:
MS: 180 (AoE) + 54 (Rockets) = 234
CA: 105 (AoE) + 60 (Rockets) = 165
To sum it up, the difference is very small for few targets and get increasingly worse for more targets if you use MS, but in the end it's just a ~10-20% more damage you take from reflect compared to before. Obviously, you can't use your sentries to deal with reflect anymore while you're shooting against a wall, but they weren't doing that much without your self cast damage anyway. A good thing about UE is that you have ~double the discipline at your disposal (because of mandatory rolls on items + Preparation - Invigoration), so skipping has become an option now if you manage to stabilize after that, which is a lot easier to do because you don't need ramp-up time (in the form of setting up 5 sentries) and the ~tripled discipline regeneration you have compared to M6. Since we are using Focus + Restraint as well as no Preparation - Punishment (less risk of capping hatred) and (at least on season) no Taeguk anymore, engaging reflect packs shouldn't cause a lot of trouble anyway compared to 2.1.2.
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Thanks for the extremely informative post, wudijo. And I'm assuming nothing's been changed in regards to Reflects caps right? It's still a max of 10% of the mobs health total?
Think Dead Man's Legacy may hold a big factor of the spike's of lethal damage as well.
How did you not have problems with reflect in marauder? On higher rifts I die almost instantly if I even touch a pack with reflect on.
Actually I haven't tested yet if DML makes you proc twice as much, it would make sense if you are really having a lot more problems than previously with M6.
Also, I don't know anything about reflect caps, because I usually get oneshot by a single proc of anything anyway. I doubt there is such a thing actually.
Profile | Twitch | Youtube | Twitter | Recruitment: Zero Empathy are looking for the best players in Europe
Well, it was easier to at least still do some damage through your sentries while not directly hitting the pack with your own spender, then get a few shots in while reflect was down, rinse and repeat. With this setup I'm finding reflect much worse because there is nothing to do while reflect is up really but kite. And I'm finding that the pets did a lot more tanking than I originally suspected, because just kiting while reflect is up with even slightly fast mobs it ends up being a death sentence.
I have tested DML on Siegebraker last night and in fact you do get double reflects. So that's probably the reason why you're having so much more trouble than before.
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Covering fire still does more than ms with the dml quiver. No idea why generators still do so much reflect while spenders dont.
Also, what happened to the reflect indicator? We used to get spikes around us when their reflect was active.
I dropped a Crashing Rain a couple days ago so last night I figured I'd try out a Natalya's build. Even in very non-optimized gear the damage is pretty silly and I found, oddly, that even though Stampede is consistently is hitting for billions it does way less damage to you when reflect is up than either EF- Focus or MS. I really don't get the underlying mechanics of reflect damage. Perhaps, with Stampede anyway, the knockback had some effect on Reflect.
keep a counter in your head:D, they do it every 7s or so
or you can just skip it like a bitttch
Season 7 Hardcore Demon Huntard #14 @ GR78
Unhallowed Essence Multishot Guide
My assumption is that Rov coefficient is very low, either way , i die really fast off strafe damage while both nat 6 set and bastion of will buffs are up, if i'm in wing it mode.
Kinda off topic but to all the dh's out there that play with a zdps crus in group, attempting high GR; You can point out the following fact to your crusader friend: It is possible to pull reflect packs away from the stream of lightning balls. Under the right conditions, a crusader can save the dh's by moving the pack to the side for a bit and then possibly pulling them back again. It requires some things to be viable though, like a non-cave map, not a crazy density map, coordination with the wd, not a pack with horde and mainly small packs of 3 champs.