Just echoing what others have said, Paragon is a poor way to judge someone. If they lucked out and got the pieces they need, a level 100 paragon guy could be nearly as powerful as a paragon 500 who hasn't been so lucky.
Quote from Okakeri
116k damage? Unless you are going for 100% support (healer/tank/CC), you are holding yourself and your group back by doing that and entering high torment lvls (You are basically getting carried). Of course, if you are a healer/tank/CC, then thats all well and good.
I am going 100% CC/support with my WD. I've got high toughness and lots of CD reduction.
I've been tweaking it regularly and trying different variations out, but last night, for example, I used:
Fear (Face of Death)
Frozen Piranhas
Mass Confusion (Paranoia)
Big Bad Voodoo (Slam Dance)
Hex (Jinx)
Spirit Barrage (Phantasm)
with Tiklandian Visage and Frostburn as my main items. With this I can keep enemies Feared/Frozen almost indefinitely while buffing ally damage considerably. With high CD reduction from items, the right passives and Last Breath I can spam MC frequently and keep BBV up with little downtime.
I once saw a para 200 wizard wearing all rares with only 70k dps, yes, seventy thousand dps. In disbelief and being the nosey person I am, i decided to check his profile and noticed all his characters also wore rares, no legends. I realised this dude hadn't discovered the "Book of caine" and was selling his legends.
Anyway, I think one easy-to-implement idea would be to block ppl entering a level if they don't meet certain criteria ( numbers are arbitrary so dont scold me)
T1 : Buffed DPS greater than 200K ? and/or buffed Toughness greater thanX million ?
The numbers will need to be tweaked for different classes - taking into account some classes may have inherently lower dps/toughness than other classes at the same level. Regardless, this criteria will ensure everyone is capable in terms of killing/survivability in the level they choose to play.
I play mainly T4 and come across alot of high para players with bad gear. They may not be "leeching" but they are definitely not pulling they weight. this criteria will address that.
Each solution has its flaws but they are both better than what we have now for sure.
The biggest problem I've found in public games is nobody wants to open the rift. Usually takes joining 4-5 games before I get one where someone actually opens the thing.
Aside from that, public is overall pretty terrible still. Many players simply don't understand certain specs and just kick players, including some very good players that can already solo the 4man T6. it's so sad that it's actually funny sometimes.
Quote from Okakeri 116k damage? Unless you are going for 100% support (healer/tank/CC), you are holding yourself and your group back by doing that and entering high torment lvls (You are basically getting carried). Of course, if you are a healer/tank/CC, then thats all well and good.
I am going 100% CC/support with my WD. I've got high toughness and lots of CD reduction.
I've been tweaking it regularly and trying different variations out, but last night, for example, I used:
Fear (Face of Death)
Frozen Piranhas
Mass Confusion (Paranoia)
Big Bad Voodoo (Slam Dance)
Hex (Jinx)
Spirit Barrage (Phantasm)
with Tiklandian Visage and Frostburn as my main items. With this I can keep enemies Feared/Frozen almost indefinitely while buffing ally damage considerably. With high CD reduction from items, the right passives and Last Breath I can spam MC frequently and keep BBV up with little downtime.
You know what is the real problem of Diablo nowadays? People thinking that DIII is WoW.
Diablo is not and mmorpg where you need supports to progress. I bet they would do 200% better and faster with full Jade set equipped WD throwing 20mil DoTs here and there.
People still think that you need tank/healer/support for this game, lol. This is diablo. Realy. Guys. Try and go T5 with Tanky guy with no dps, healer without any good dps abilities and 2 pure dps. Then do the same rift with 4 full dps characters. Diablo is the game that cares only about "killing them BEFORE they can kill you". The faster you do it, the better.
Unless you are underequipped party of people playing Hardcore higher rifts, you don't need "supports" that CC monsters all the time.
Wake up or go play some mmorpgs.
So there are actually people around who realize this :).
The only "viable" supports were CMWW wizards. It's ok to lack some damage if in return you can permastun ANYTHING. Yet even then your dps shouldn't be more than 20% below the average other player.
If you think you're role in a party is more to support than to DPS: You're getting carried!
Diablo is not and mmorpg where you need supports to progress. I bet they would do 200% better and faster with full Jade set equipped WD throwing 20mil DoTs here and there.
What's even worse is that a Zuni WD has pretty high uptime on BBV, has very good Piranhas availability, just doesn't bring Mass Confusion or Hex (lol single target), but actually does a ton of damage.
What's the point of gaining a 20% damage boost on monsters if your group is essentially sacrificing 25% of its total DPS to get it. It's really simple math. Really simple math. Adding 20% but subtracting 25% is a net damage loss. And, in reality, since you have to use a Death's Breath for this build you're sacrificing either TFs proc or you're sacrificing up to 30% elite damage, neither of which is insignificant.
Then, add in the fact that in most cases using MC on white monsters is an outright waste since they die so quickly anyway that 20% faster is bordering on meaningless, and you start to realize that you're not actually bringing as much buffing/debuffing as you think and that +20/-25% starts to become +5%/-40% and the "need" for those buffs is actually legitimized because of your garbage damage contribution to the group. It's almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy.... by gimping your damage so much stuff actually lives long enough for these gimmicky tactics to seem like they're legit.
Alright, first... Public games are not that bad. At least not the lower torments. Yes, there are leeches. Yes, there are people who join a game, finish the rift, and immediately leave (and I want to punch them all in the face about 500 times). Yes, there are people who will just stand there, waiting for you to spend frags to open a rift for them. Yes, there are people who will even AFK for extended periods of time.
However the biggest issue are the rift keystone leeches. Never want to open one, always impatient, and always furiously mashing the keyboard asking everyone else to spend their fragments.
As for a requisite prior to entering a particular torment .... What does paragon have to do with it? Put in a stat or gear check. Make them have to solo the previous tier successfully. Something. I've seen plenty of people, both high and low paragon, with good and bad gear. Paragon level does not mean they do or do not have gear.
To the people who say none sense like, "don't PUG" ...... This may come as a shock, but not everybody is 20 years old, partying it up every night in college, with 100+ friends at arms length to make a group with. Some people actually have to find friends with which to form groups, and to do that, they have to actually meet people. Crazy concept, I know.
Why would you join public games in the first place? People use public 90% of the time just to leech off others.
If you like to carry people do it, if not, you're better off playing solo.
As many ( including myself ) suggested above, a feasible solution would be to add level entry criteria based on dps, toughness or some combination of them and other parameters X,Y,Z. This would address the issue to a great extent. It may not be perfect but it would be close enough. We already know from using websites like diablogrogress.com, that the different facets of character's power can be quantified so that's not an issue.
Quite frankly, I think your comment is extremely negative and no at all constructive. I honestly don't understand why people with your views even join forums. If we all thought like you "like it or lump it", games such as D3 and other software would never be able to evolve from user feedback which is the most important feedback which any software vendor will tell you.
Personally, I find soloing quite boring and if I was to just play solo, I may aswell uninstall the game because I certainly would not want to play again.
Alright, first... Public games are not that bad. At least not the lower torments. Yes, there are leeches. Yes, there are people who join a game, finish the rift, and immediately leave (and I want to punch them all in the face about 500 times). Yes, there are people who will just stand there, waiting for you to spend frags to open a rift for them. Yes, there are people who will even AFK for extended periods of time.
However the biggest issue are the rift keystone leeches. Never want to open one, always impatient, and always furiously mashing the keyboard asking everyone else to spend their fragments.
Could not agree with you more. I am delighted they made the rift cost 1 keystone per player in the next patch. An excellent example of the game "evolving" from previous user feedback.
The biggest problem I've found in public games is nobody wants to open the rift. Usually takes joining 4-5 games before I get one where someone actually opens the thing.
Aside from that, public is overall pretty terrible still. Many players simply don't understand certain specs and just kick players, including some very good players that can already solo the 4man T6. it's so sad that it's actually funny sometimes.
So why don't you open the rift? That's another thing I'm looking forward to with this patch - If you want to run a rift, you'll have to pony up a stone. No more of this hopping from game to game until someone opens a rift because you refuse to spend your stones. I'll take a T6 leech any day of the week over someone rift leeching.
In recent games where I've come across leeches, I've stopped fighting to let them do some of the work. In a couple of games yesterday, 2 leeches left after dying 3 or 4 times within a short space of time. It sounds bad but its a good way to let them know what you think of them without kicking. If a player is good enough for level X, he/she can continue playing alone ( albeit at a slower pace )
Your paragon level has fuck all to do with what torment difficulty you can do. If you have amazing luck with gear you could be paragon 0 and be in T6 pubs.
this^
And this is exactly the problem, this is what most of them thinks.
You ain´t fooling anyone by standing back and throwing spells which does no damage. Surviving is not enough.
^ this right here is an example of an imbecile. Watch as said monkey throws banana peels and trips on itself. Have you ever heard of WD pet build. All I do is launch Locust swarm and let my pets tick the damage. Yes. I can go afk and still carry. Do you want to know what their edps is without asking. Think about, something you apparently dont know how to do, turn on display monster health. Stand there is afk and let them try and kill the elite on their own. The ironic things is, their edps could be even higher than yours, and you are the one slowing the group down.
This thread is nothing more than a child whinning about nothing. If you can carry then fine, As long as they are willing to rift it forward then leave them be because they add "higher drop chance." The only time you should be complaining is if the rifts you are doing are in HC mode. But I highly doubt it, you children complain like softcore scrubs.
Your paragon level has fuck all to do with what torment difficulty you can do. If you have amazing luck with gear you could be paragon 0 and be in T6 pubs.
this^
And this is exactly the problem, this is what most of them thinks.
You ain´t fooling anyone by standing back and throwing spells which does no damage. Surviving is not enough.
^ this right here is an example of an imbecile. Watch as said monkey throws banana peels and trips on itself. Have you ever heard of WD pet build. All I do is launch Locust swarm and let my pets tick the damage. Yes. I can go afk and still carry. Do you want to know what their edps is without asking. Think about, something you apparently dont know how to do, turn on display monster health. Stand there is afk and let them try and kill the elite on their own. The ironic things is, their edps could be even higher than yours, and you are the one slowing the group down.
This thread is nothing more than a child whinning about nothing. If you can carry then fine, As long as they are willing to rift it forward then leave them be because they add "higher drop chance." The only time you should be complaining is if the rifts you are doing are in HC mode. But I highly doubt it, you children complain like softcore scrubs.
I don't think this thread is whining. Yes, some people are using rather coarse language and writing with a bit too much emotion but the complaint is still the same and a legitimate one ~ Some players are taking advantage of more powerful players to gain the rewards of playing in higher levels which they are incapable of playing themselves. They are impatient and want quick rewards which to me is a form of exploitation.
If I want to help my friend level, then yes, I can do. I create a private game, invite him/her, invite a couple more friends and away we go. However, to expect every other person who does not want to be taken advantage of to have to kick or leave the game is unacceptable. With the current game search process as it is and the number of "leeches" mean the probability of entering a game with a leech is fairly high.
Last night I entered at least three T5 games in a row with sub 100 paragon players loitering in the town centre. Whilst tending to my gems which took a few minutes, I noticed a stream of higher level players entering and leaving immediately which I supect were deterred by the leeches.
I have nice gear and high dps but T5 for me is still tough but I like it as I am pushing my characters boundaries and measuring how good I am. To carry a player when I feel I am already pushing my character to the limit is impossible. If I drop down to T2, then yes, I could carry 1 or even 2 but not at T5 or T6 where there seem to be alot of them.
You know what is the real problem of Diablo nowadays? People thinking that DIII is WoW.
Diablo is not and mmorpg where you need supports to progress. I bet they would do 200% better and faster with full Jade set equipped WD throwing 20mil DoTs here and there.
You never played with an ep pullmonk right? A well geared support monk toss out like 40k healing on each partymember nonstop, buffs the damage of the teammates thru the roof and helps big ways with ep to keep up a high killspeed. There is a reason why ep gets nerfed/redesigned. But anyways.
BTT
If you have troubles with peole in pub games either votekick them or leave yourself and join a new game. And there is always your own friendlist, clan or communities to find people to play with.
I'm not saying that there is no "support" builds around, I'm just saying UNLESS you are going under-geared for high torments in HC(but then another question occurs: why do you do high torments rifts without proper eq? Ain't it better and faster to do lower rifts but much faster?) this monk will never be better than Leap Barb or Jade WD or Pillar / Kick monk. It just won't. It may seems like there is a need for one ep pull monk in the group because when you play with him you need to compensate for the lack of DPS with some kind of support and healing.
What is the need of healing when you can kill the monsters before they can actually hurt you? Or they can't hurt you more than a health globe / potion is able to heal?
cheers.
The part i react to here is "this monk will never be better than Leap Barb or Jade WD or Pillar / Kick monk. It just won't. Itmayseemslike there is a need for one ep pull monk in the group because when you play with him you need to compensate for the lack of DPS with some kind of support and healing."
This right here is complete crap. What that PP monk brings to the table is:
Immense damage from EP (When 1 mob with it dies, it takes with it other mobs with EP making a chainexplosion killing everything in range)
Control and gathering of mobs for easier aoe damage, making every aoe skill in the game you are in more efficient
Percentbased buffs for damage.
30% from inner sanctuary
20% from exploding palm
20% from mantra of conviction
The cleartimes of rifts is greatly increased when you got a support monk with barely any paperdmg at all in the group, and thats a fact!
If you and 4 friends got the gear to clear t6 as if it was t1, then by any means dont bring a pp monk because its clearly not needed. But 99.9999999% of players in t6 arent decked out in perfect legendaries like you. I have played with and played as a support monk, and I got no issues with spirit, and cleartimes are improved. You can theorycraft all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that a zdps/pp monk carries its weight and improves any group.
Spirit is no issue with permanent epiphany and the legendary helm The minds eye.
Exactly where is it you're not telling anyone how to play the game?
" but if you want fun and efficiency then the math is there to help you."The math clearly states zdps monks overall buff the groupdamage and efficiency compared to a 4th dps.
You are on this as if a pp monk was a bandaid for lowergeared players, yet you fail to see that it improves really geared players aswell.
What I am saying here is, what a zdps monk brings to the game, is the ability for other dps to compensate for the lack of a 4th, by doing groupwise more dmg than the group would with a 4th dps.
With only the mantra and strongarm, each dps is doing about 50% more dmg. If each dps does equal dmg, they would roughly be doing 25% each. Take away 25% of the group dmg and add a zdps monk, then give each of the other dps 12.5% more of the groups damage, and you end up on 112.5%. Now lets add the other buffs, and add around 90% more dmg for each player. This would roughly mean 22.5% more groupdmg per dps, ending on 142.5% dmg compared to a 4dps groups 100%.
I'm clearly not a mathwiz, and my understanding of this might be way off, but untill someone proves me wrong, this is what I will believe.
I'm clearly not a mathwiz, and my understanding of this might be way off, but untill someone proves me wrong, this is what I will believe.
You are discounting that a 4th DPS can bring buffs as well. Don't get me wrong, the PP monk is *designed* to bring those buffs and its amazing how many people think (for example) that their reapers wraps will provide more group dps from more cluster arrows than strongarm + knockback* would achieve by buffing everyone by 30% but hey. So in reality, yeah sure PP monks are bringing more than 4th DPS. But only because most people play "solo" in group games re: build
*Okay so DH wans'ta great choice but the point stands. Wizards, WDs. Crusaders, all able to bring group buffs/use strongarms, and 9 times out of 10 that will provide more damage to the group than using their solo-play build...
Oh right, actually discounting any dps bringing buffs aswell. Guess I'm back to EP doing the best damage ingame atm then.
You're not wrong
As the other user pointed out, when the damage from the group is high enough for the content, EP/PP monk becomes less useful as he doesn't have time to reach potential. When things are alive for 5+ seconds though, its easy for the PP monk to pull ahead. You're not wrong with your arguments; it all depends on the level of gear : difficulty ratio. When that is in favour of the damage, a fourth (supporting, all group players should support the power is too much to ignore) DPS will provide more speed, whether thats a DPS monk or sprint barb or Jade Doctor (15% Piranado +30% SA +30% - and 20% IAS BBV) they will help more than the palm monk.
But as soon as that ration is more balanced the monk pulls ahead with the ability to "transfer the DPS dealt" - but even then the efficiency is grossly affected by the mobs and map tilesets (can't cyclone 'fat boys' and dungeons/halls of agony style corridors can be a bitch for grouping compared to, say fields of misery). With the gross amount fo transferable damage given by FoA and +phys%/elite% modifiers there's no wonder they are top of the "legitimate" GRifts times (discounting basically anything 40+ as 'exploited' - w/e different argument). Pretty sure that's gonna get nerfed "TO THE GROUND" though
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Gear matters so much more than paragon.
I for one mostly play with my brother or solo, public games are not usually worth the time.
I've been tweaking it regularly and trying different variations out, but last night, for example, I used:
Fear (Face of Death)
Frozen Piranhas
Mass Confusion (Paranoia)
Big Bad Voodoo (Slam Dance)
Hex (Jinx)
Spirit Barrage (Phantasm)
with Tiklandian Visage and Frostburn as my main items. With this I can keep enemies Feared/Frozen almost indefinitely while buffing ally damage considerably. With high CD reduction from items, the right passives and Last Breath I can spam MC frequently and keep BBV up with little downtime.
Anyway, I think one easy-to-implement idea would be to block ppl entering a level if they don't meet certain criteria ( numbers are arbitrary so dont scold me)
T1 : Buffed DPS greater than 200K ? and/or buffed Toughness greater thanX million ?
T2 : Buffed DPS greater than400K ?and/or buffed Toughness greater thanX million ?
T3 : Buffed DPS greater than600K ?and/or buffed Toughness greater thanX million ?
T4 : Buffed DPS greater than800K ?and/or buffed Toughness greater thanX million ?
T5 : Buffed DPS greater than1000K ?and/or buffed Toughness greater thanX million ?
T6 : Buffed DPS greater than1200K ?and/or buffed Toughness greater thanX million ?
The numbers will need to be tweaked for different classes - taking into account some classes may have inherently lower dps/toughness than other classes at the same level. Regardless, this criteria will ensure everyone is capable in terms of killing/survivability in the level they choose to play.
I play mainly T4 and come across alot of high para players with bad gear. They may not be "leeching" but they are definitely not pulling they weight. this criteria will address that.
Each solution has its flaws but they are both better than what we have now for sure.
Aside from that, public is overall pretty terrible still. Many players simply don't understand certain specs and just kick players, including some very good players that can already solo the 4man T6. it's so sad that it's actually funny sometimes.
The only "viable" supports were CMWW wizards. It's ok to lack some damage if in return you can permastun ANYTHING. Yet even then your dps shouldn't be more than 20% below the average other player.
If you think you're role in a party is more to support than to DPS: You're getting carried!
What's the point of gaining a 20% damage boost on monsters if your group is essentially sacrificing 25% of its total DPS to get it. It's really simple math. Really simple math. Adding 20% but subtracting 25% is a net damage loss. And, in reality, since you have to use a Death's Breath for this build you're sacrificing either TFs proc or you're sacrificing up to 30% elite damage, neither of which is insignificant.
Then, add in the fact that in most cases using MC on white monsters is an outright waste since they die so quickly anyway that 20% faster is bordering on meaningless, and you start to realize that you're not actually bringing as much buffing/debuffing as you think and that +20/-25% starts to become +5%/-40% and the "need" for those buffs is actually legitimized because of your garbage damage contribution to the group. It's almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy.... by gimping your damage so much stuff actually lives long enough for these gimmicky tactics to seem like they're legit.
However the biggest issue are the rift keystone leeches. Never want to open one, always impatient, and always furiously mashing the keyboard asking everyone else to spend their fragments.
As for a requisite prior to entering a particular torment .... What does paragon have to do with it? Put in a stat or gear check. Make them have to solo the previous tier successfully. Something. I've seen plenty of people, both high and low paragon, with good and bad gear. Paragon level does not mean they do or do not have gear.
To the people who say none sense like, "don't PUG" ...... This may come as a shock, but not everybody is 20 years old, partying it up every night in college, with 100+ friends at arms length to make a group with. Some people actually have to find friends with which to form groups, and to do that, they have to actually meet people. Crazy concept, I know.
Quite frankly, I think your comment is extremely negative and no at all constructive. I honestly don't understand why people with your views even join forums. If we all thought like you "like it or lump it", games such as D3 and other software would never be able to evolve from user feedback which is the most important feedback which any software vendor will tell you.
Personally, I find soloing quite boring and if I was to just play solo, I may aswell uninstall the game because I certainly would not want to play again.
This thread is nothing more than a child whinning about nothing. If you can carry then fine, As long as they are willing to rift it forward then leave them be because they add "higher drop chance." The only time you should be complaining is if the rifts you are doing are in HC mode. But I highly doubt it, you children complain like softcore scrubs.
THEY HATE US, CUZ THEY AIN'T US
If I want to help my friend level, then yes, I can do. I create a private game, invite him/her, invite a couple more friends and away we go. However, to expect every other person who does not want to be taken advantage of to have to kick or leave the game is unacceptable. With the current game search process as it is and the number of "leeches" mean the probability of entering a game with a leech is fairly high.
Last night I entered at least three T5 games in a row with sub 100 paragon players loitering in the town centre. Whilst tending to my gems which took a few minutes, I noticed a stream of higher level players entering and leaving immediately which I supect were deterred by the leeches.
I have nice gear and high dps but T5 for me is still tough but I like it as I am pushing my characters boundaries and measuring how good I am. To carry a player when I feel I am already pushing my character to the limit is impossible.
If I drop down to T2, then yes, I could carry 1 or even 2 but not at T5 or T6 where there seem to be alot of them.
This right here is complete crap. What that PP monk brings to the table is:
Spirit is no issue with permanent epiphany and the legendary helm The minds eye.
" but if you want fun and efficiency then the math is there to help you."The math clearly states zdps monks overall buff the groupdamage and efficiency compared to a 4th dps.
You are on this as if a pp monk was a bandaid for lowergeared players, yet you fail to see that it improves really geared players aswell.
What I am saying here is, what a zdps monk brings to the game, is the ability for other dps to compensate for the lack of a 4th, by doing groupwise more dmg than the group would with a 4th dps.
With only the mantra and strongarm, each dps is doing about 50% more dmg. If each dps does equal dmg, they would roughly be doing 25% each. Take away 25% of the group dmg and add a zdps monk, then give each of the other dps 12.5% more of the groups damage, and you end up on 112.5%. Now lets add the other buffs, and add around 90% more dmg for each player. This would roughly mean 22.5% more groupdmg per dps, ending on 142.5% dmg compared to a 4dps groups 100%.
I'm clearly not a mathwiz, and my understanding of this might be way off, but untill someone proves me wrong, this is what I will believe.
*Okay so DH wans'ta great choice but the point stands. Wizards, WDs. Crusaders, all able to bring group buffs/use strongarms, and 9 times out of 10 that will provide more damage to the group than using their solo-play build...
On a more serious note, your point about bringing solobuilds to groupplay is a very good one. And a PP monk bypasses that.
As the other user pointed out, when the damage from the group is high enough for the content, EP/PP monk becomes less useful as he doesn't have time to reach potential. When things are alive for 5+ seconds though, its easy for the PP monk to pull ahead. You're not wrong with your arguments; it all depends on the level of gear : difficulty ratio. When that is in favour of the damage, a fourth (supporting, all group players should support the power is too much to ignore) DPS will provide more speed, whether thats a DPS monk or sprint barb or Jade Doctor (15% Piranado +30% SA +30% - and 20% IAS BBV) they will help more than the palm monk.
But as soon as that ration is more balanced the monk pulls ahead with the ability to "transfer the DPS dealt" - but even then the efficiency is grossly affected by the mobs and map tilesets (can't cyclone 'fat boys' and dungeons/halls of agony style corridors can be a bitch for grouping compared to, say fields of misery). With the gross amount fo transferable damage given by FoA and +phys%/elite% modifiers there's no wonder they are top of the "legitimate" GRifts times (discounting basically anything 40+ as 'exploited' - w/e different argument). Pretty sure that's gonna get nerfed "TO THE GROUND" though