The reason I made an account is that I really liked the OP idea (once again clapping for it).
I am on the side of whats best for D3 and the RMAH is a parasite for D3. Just as the bots are. They can kill both with one patch, you name it.
And loot 2.0 will be a failure as long as they don't realize that you don't have to balance Diablo - its not an RTS. You should have weaker and stronger builds, thats the whole point of it and thats what Jay Wilson never managed to understand. But for these builds to become stronger, you don't need to pick the right skills, you need to have the right items. Items which have build improving properties. And from the gamescom screens I didn't saw such, so I am really skeptical about loot 2.0.
You do need to balance. We live in an age of information overload and paralysis of analysis where unless you are min/maxing you are "doing it wrong". As soon as X become more useful and or efficient than Y the game devolves into everyone is doing Y or feeling that they "have" to do Y. The idea of balance is so that ABC and XYZ all have reasonable deltas (which is also a joke now since the tolerance in the community is appalling).
Also I don't honestly get how people can throw in the towel on loot 2.0 based on the small and mostly anecdotal evidence presented thus far. I get that it's easier, or the "cool thing" to be all doom and gloom on Blizzard but, I don't know, maybe wait and once more data is available come to a conclusion? No? Ok, your call.
Great idea! Problem is this will devalue the items at the RMAH and blizzard won't allow that.
They already did that with BoA. Or does that not fit your stupid hate agenda?
Think before you post.
It's his first post and he is on our side. Why are you so aggressive? Do you two have a history that I don't know?
"He's on our side"?
His first post on a diablo fansite and it's the regurgitated claim that Blizzard let's the RMAH dictate their loot design choices, which is not only entirely false, but has been proven so through Blizzard's actions.
He's not on my side. He can go stand in the corner with the rest of the tin-hat, Blizz-flaming 1 post members that come and go just to troll their Bnet bullshit.
Well, "great idea!" sounds like a "+1" to me. Don't understand your hate
@Mutilate24 You are exactly right - everyone will go for that XYZ imba build. In fact if they make loot 2.0 as diverse as possible, we will have countless XYZ imba builds. The problem is that to make such a build yourself, you'll have to farm with years (or your bot for those who runs such) to get those build improving properties you want. So the most devoted players will have the strongest builds and OP idea adds to this too.
@ruksak They can scale whatever they want dude and the Mystic changes nothing (as long as its not free to reroll the stats).
My main issue with this approach is that lots of items are going to end up being vendor trash with a system like this. Let's say you are farming on a main that is able to easily farm mid to high MP. You get an awesome Skorn (or whatever) drop but it's not an upgrade or side grade for you. In the current game you have options now, flip that item on the AH to make some gold which may then allow you to buy another item that would be an upgrade (people seem to forget that the AH does not supply itself and selling an item for gold and then buying another item is the same thing as trading an item for another item. How many minds did I just blow right there, be honest?). Or you could give it to a friend who would benefit from that item. With your system that awesome Skorn will probably end up being completely devalued once it leaves your possession.
It's a cool idea, but I think it's shortsighted and unfortunately comes across with a "me me me" attitude. Opinions and all of that, right?
If you really want to take this to the next level you need to add some sort of UI element that toggles between the Pristine and Worn variations. My suggestion would be to allow the item to be traded at no consequence but have the "downgrade" triggered by posting on the AH. That's really the goal here, right? To push people away from that mean spirited AH?
Well, "great idea!" sounds like a "+1" to me. Don't understand your hate
It's not hate. It's intolerance. I'm not going to tolerate such foolishness without an explanation. This isn't Bnet, a den of angst ridden 12 year old children. If you're going to make a claim like that, you'd better be prepared to back it up.
@ruksak They can scale whatever they want dude and the Mystic changes nothing (as long as its not free to reroll the stats).
How can you say that? The Mystic is the second implementation that can render true BiS items, none of which can be traded on the AH's. If Blizz is creating so many avenues for players to create their own BiS OMFGodly items, and these items are account bound, what makes you think that's meant to drive people to the AH?
Because it's a gold sink? I've never touched the RMAH and never will, yet, I can craft with impunity, the only limitation is my supply of DE (another account bound, non-AH item).
Sorry for being so snippy, brother, but that tin-hat shit don't fly 'round these parts.
My main issue with this approach is that lots of items are going to end up being vendor trash with a system like this. Let's say you are farming on a main that is able to easily farm mid to high MP. You get an awesome Skorn (or whatever) drop but it's not an upgrade or side grade for you. In the current game you have options now, flip that item on the AH to make some gold which may then allow you to buy another item that would be an upgrade (people seem to forget that the AH does not supply itself and selling an item for gold and then buying another item is the same thing as trading an item for another item. How many minds did I just blow right there, be honest?). Or you could give it to a friend who would benefit from that item. With your system that awesome Skorn will probably end up being completely devalued once it leaves your possession.
It's a cool idea, but I think it's shortsighted and unfortunately comes across with a "me me me" attitude. Opinions and all of that, right?
If you really want to take this to the next level you need to add some sort of UI element that toggles between the Pristine and Worn variations. My suggestion would be to allow the item to be traded at no consequence but have the "downgrade" triggered by posting on the AH. That's really the goal here, right? To push people away from that mean spirited AH?
Another solution to the problem you said might be to implement an affix that does what the OP suggested.
An additional affix that can roll on rare / legendary items that improves all other affix stats by X%, but when the items is traded that affix disappears.
@Mutilate24 You are exactly right - everyone will go for that XYZ imba build. In fact if they make loot 2.0 as diverse as possible, we will have countless XYZ imba builds. The problem is that to make such a build yourself, you'll have to farm with years (or your bot for those who runs such) to get those build improving properties you want. So the most devoted players will have the strongest builds and OP idea adds to this too.
If anything the OP's suggestion exacerbates the issue. Diablo is a loot game with a heavy trading component. It's not reasonable to assume you will get everything you want (the key is want here) by yourself. The AH, regardless of its less than stellar implementation, offers players a nice and tidy point of access to trading. Take it away and the trading will continue, and probably move "offline" as it did in Diablo 2. Suggestions like the OPs are a strike against the AH/RMAH, simple as that. The trading component needs to be there and needs to be done in a way where Blizzard can keep it contained. I know I don't have the desire, or time to "farm for years" but I still enjoy the item hunt anyway. I certainly don't want to be pigeonholed if I do find something really nice, but not specifically nice for me.
Another solution to the problem you said might be to implement an affix that does what the OP suggested.
An additional affix that can roll on rare / legendary items that improves all other affix stats by X%, but when the items is traded that affix disappears.
You end up with the same issue. I trade or just flat out give away a lot of stuff to friends and it would suck to know that my awesome item is going to take an arbitrary stat hit because I personally am not using it anymore. That's not fun or beneficial to the game in anyway. Again, opinions.
Awesome post!! Personally finding my own gear was always a favorite part of my diablo experiences. So far I have only found a single item I chose to use for any period of endgame time. Everything else has been AH trading. This makes it much more likely to find stuff worth keeping. And of course you can still ah it if its not worthwhile for you! +1!
My main issue with this approach is that lots of items are going to end up being vendor trash with a system like this. Let's say you are farming on a main that is able to easily farm mid to high MP. You get an awesome Skorn (or whatever) drop but it's not an upgrade or side grade for you. In the current game you have options now, flip that item on the AH to make some gold which may then allow you to buy another item that would be an upgrade (people seem to forget that the AH does not supply itself and selling an item for gold and then buying another item is the same thing as trading an item for another item. How many minds did I just blow right there, be honest?). Or you could give it to a friend who would benefit from that item. With your system that awesome Skorn will probably end up being completely devalued once it leaves your possession.
It's a cool idea, but I think it's shortsighted and unfortunately comes across with a "me me me" attitude. Opinions and all of that, right?
Thanks for the response. But what's the difference between selling an item on the AH with the Pristine System opposed to the current system? If you were selling the Skorn in the current system, wouldn't it be the same value as in the Pristine System? It's not like everyone will be finding Skorns and the demand on the AH will die.
If you really want to take this to the next level you need to add some sort of UI element that toggles between the Pristine and Worn variations. My suggestion would be to allow the item to be traded at no consequence but have the "downgrade" triggered by posting on the AH. That's really the goal here, right? To push people away from that mean spirited AH?
I have also thought about manual trades not affecting Pristine. I'm not sure, but something doesn't feel right about letting those extra stats transfer all around. Maybe it would work fine though.
@Mutilate24 You are exactly right - everyone will go for that XYZ imba build. In fact if they make loot 2.0 as diverse as possible, we will have countless XYZ imba builds. The problem is that to make such a build yourself, you'll have to farm with years (or your bot for those who runs such) to get those build improving properties you want. So the most devoted players will have the strongest builds and OP idea adds to this too.
If anything the OP's suggestion exacerbates the issue. Diablo is a loot game with a heavy trading component. It's not reasonable to assume you will get everything you want (the key is want here) by yourself. The AH, regardless of its less than stellar implementation, offers players a nice and tidy point of access to trading. Take it away and the trading will continue, and probably move "offline" as it did in Diablo 2. Suggestions like the OPs are a strike against the AH/RMAH, simple as that. The trading component needs to be there and needs to be done in a way where Blizzard can keep it contained. I know I don't have the desire, or time to "farm for years" but I still enjoy the item hunt anyway. I certainly don't want to be pigeonholed if I do find something really nice, but not specifically nice for me.
Just to be clear. I am not against the AH completely. I actually prefer it to manual trades, the chat is a mess (to me!). I am looking for a solution that balances the Auction House with Gear Found Playing. There is no balance now. Everyone uses 99.99% gear from the AH, if you are looking to have the best gear you can. I think with my idea, players will have about 10-50% Found Gear from Playing, and the rest from the Auction House. Hardcore players might eventually have mainly Found Gear from Playing (what a thought). That is my goal anyways.
Thanks for the response. But what's the difference between selling an item on the AH with the Pristine System opposed to the current system? If you were selling the Skorn in the current system, wouldn't it be the same value as in the Pristine System? It's not like everyone will be finding Skorns and the demand on the AH will die.
The main issue is, once you do find that nice "pristine" Skorn, you have become 20% more powerful in that slot. The game isn't exactly super-difficult as it is, so you are, for all intents and purposes, creating a MASSIVE point of balance concern.
Do you balance monsters around these "pristine" items, or do you just let people who get pristine items have an even easier gameplay experience?
I mean you're basically proposing a Skorn that has max stats of 1600-1700 DPS, 240% critical damage, 7.20% life leech, and a BONUS property. How does such a massive increase in stats work with monsters that have to be killable? Is MP10 going to become only for "pristine"-geared toons? Or will "pristine" items just make it that if you're farming MP10 you'll be able to do it 20% faster, thus mandating "pristine" items for efficiency?
Not a bad idea, in fact it's pretty good. I posted a similar suggestion a while ago as well. My idea was that you had the option to imbue an item at the blacksmith, this increased all stats by X% and made it account bound. To imbue was expensive and needed reagents found from specific areas, to greater diversify endgame. I'd hate to find something for a friend and not be able to trade it to him, especially if he was in the same game, so I'm not sure trading should flat out ruin an item by labelling it "worn".
Like others have said, loot 2.0 is on it's way and I have faith in Blizzard that they will vastly improve the game once again with the introduction of a new and improved loot system. At least I hope.
Thanks for the response! I just wanted to touch on your point that the item would be ruined from trading it. The item would be exactly what it would've been if Pristine didn't exist, once it's traded. It's wouldn't be "worse" than now. It's just extra great to the Hero that Discovered it.
Maybe I misunderstood your idea but it sounds like:
Find awesome Skorn, it has awesome bonuses because I found it.
Go to sell/trade the same Skorn and it loses extra attributes and ~20% stats.
Is that right? If so, then the issue is that the item becomes devalued at trade. Sure, that Skorn could still be sold or traded but an items value is inherent to its stats so all of a sudden my BiS item becomes middle of the pack at best. A quick glance at the economy shows middle of the pack stuff is all but useless. I want to have that flexibility to know that if I get a really good item I can use it or get "full market value" for it so I can potentially get something else that I could use. That's all.
Not to beat a dead horse but again the AH does not supply itself and I think it's a tad disingeuine to phrase things in a way that makes it seem like people are just going to the AH and buying items like you would from an in game vendor. Sure people buy items from the AH, but it's a player driven economy and you are in essence trading.
The Mystic seems like a better balance as it gives the players choice. There is a little risk versus reward excitement with it, or at least based on what we know now. The Pristine versus Worn system doesn't give me choice; it takes some away if I am being honest.
I'm not meaning to take a big old dump on your idea, and I hope it's not reading that way. Just offering up my opinions on the matter.
Edit: Shaggy's point is excellent as well and another point that would need to be taken into consideration with a system like this.
Thanks for the response. But what's the difference between selling an item on the AH with the Pristine System opposed to the current system? If you were selling the Skorn in the current system, wouldn't it be the same value as in the Pristine System? It's not like everyone will be finding Skorns and the demand on the AH will die.
The main issue is, once you do find that nice "pristine" Skorn, you have become 20% more powerful in that slot. The game isn't exactly super-difficult as it is, so you are, for all intents and purposes, creating a MASSIVE point of balance concern.
Do you balance monsters around these "pristine" items, or do you just let people who get pristine items have an even easier gameplay experience?
I mean you're basically proposing a Skorn that has max stats of 1600-1700 DPS, 240% critical damage, 7.20% life leech, and a BONUS property. How does such a massive increase in stats work with monsters that have to be killable? Is MP10 going to become only for "pristine"-geared toons? Or will "pristine" items just make it that if you're farming MP10 you'll be able to do it 20% faster, thus mandating "pristine" items for efficiency?
Yes, that is correct. But think about how rare it is to find that "Perfect drop Skorn" as it is. If YOU find it, it is going to reward you well. Currently, you'd probably sell it right away, no? But now, it motivates you to possibly keep it, OR make a killing off it.
Here's the thing. Finding that "Perfectly rolled Pristine Legendary" for YOUR build isn't going to be close to common. The once in a lifetime occasion you do find a perfectly rolled legendary, it most likely won't be the one you were looking for. You then have the option to adjust your build to take advantage of it, or sell it off as a Great but not Pristine Legendary into the economy.
I don't see this frequently breaking damage barriers and upsetting balance.
Thanks for the response. But what's the difference between selling an item on the AH with the Pristine System opposed to the current system? If you were selling the Skorn in the current system, wouldn't it be the same value as in the Pristine System? It's not like everyone will be finding Skorns and the demand on the AH will die.
The main issue is, once you do find that nice "pristine" Skorn, you have become 20% more powerful in that slot. The game isn't exactly super-difficult as it is, so you are, for all intents and purposes, creating a MASSIVE point of balance concern.
Do you balance monsters around these "pristine" items, or do you just let people who get pristine items have an even easier gameplay experience?
I mean you're basically proposing a Skorn that has max stats of 1600-1700 DPS, 240% critical damage, 7.20% life leech, and a BONUS property. How does such a massive increase in stats work with monsters that have to be killable? Is MP10 going to become only for "pristine"-geared toons? Or will "pristine" items just make it that if you're farming MP10 you'll be able to do it 20% faster, thus mandating "pristine" items for efficiency?
Your point is fair in theory but practice would crush it. The odds of finding a Skorn that is within range of 20% of the ones that are available on the AH and affordable are still extremely small. Look at those high end people who still use ilvl62 amulets from the AH instead of crafted ones.
This idea only tips the odds of finding good gear in our favor, which is brilliant. This does not create characters that are 120% times as powerful as before. Not even close, I doubt a 5% increase in power, maybe 1%.
edit: Snap7, your idea was nice, too, but this one is better. In your iteration, players could still obtain the items from the AH, in this one only the actual finder receives the bonus value.
You do need to balance. We live in an age of information overload and paralysis of analysis where unless you are min/maxing you are "doing it wrong". As soon as X become more useful and or efficient than Y the game devolves into everyone is doing Y or feeling that they "have" to do Y. The idea of balance is so that ABC and XYZ all have reasonable deltas (which is also a joke now since the tolerance in the community is appalling).
Also I don't honestly get how people can throw in the towel on loot 2.0 based on the small and mostly anecdotal evidence presented thus far. I get that it's easier, or the "cool thing" to be all doom and gloom on Blizzard but, I don't know, maybe wait and once more data is available come to a conclusion? No? Ok, your call.
The Mystic.
End of your nonsense.
Explain how the Mystic boats your claims that the RMAH is their priority? Go on, I can't wait to hear this.
ALSO: If you don't think they'll change the current BoA crafting system to scale up with the rest of the changes, you're fooling yourself.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
I translated your idea in italian and posted it on the italian forum.
Let's see what happens
Wow, thank you! You are awesome!
Ofc I did!
Well, "great idea!" sounds like a "+1" to me. Don't understand your hate
Btw:
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
@ruksak They can scale whatever they want dude and the Mystic changes nothing (as long as its not free to reroll the stats).
It's a cool idea, but I think it's shortsighted and unfortunately comes across with a "me me me" attitude. Opinions and all of that, right?
If you really want to take this to the next level you need to add some sort of UI element that toggles between the Pristine and Worn variations. My suggestion would be to allow the item to be traded at no consequence but have the "downgrade" triggered by posting on the AH. That's really the goal here, right? To push people away from that mean spirited AH?
It's not hate. It's intolerance. I'm not going to tolerate such foolishness without an explanation. This isn't Bnet, a den of angst ridden 12 year old children. If you're going to make a claim like that, you'd better be prepared to back it up.
How can you say that? The Mystic is the second implementation that can render true BiS items, none of which can be traded on the AH's. If Blizz is creating so many avenues for players to create their own BiS OMFGodly items, and these items are account bound, what makes you think that's meant to drive people to the AH?
Because it's a gold sink? I've never touched the RMAH and never will, yet, I can craft with impunity, the only limitation is my supply of DE (another account bound, non-AH item).
Sorry for being so snippy, brother, but that tin-hat shit don't fly 'round these parts.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
Another solution to the problem you said might be to implement an affix that does what the OP suggested.
An additional affix that can roll on rare / legendary items that improves all other affix stats by X%, but when the items is traded that affix disappears.
You end up with the same issue. I trade or just flat out give away a lot of stuff to friends and it would suck to know that my awesome item is going to take an arbitrary stat hit because I personally am not using it anymore. That's not fun or beneficial to the game in anyway. Again, opinions.
Thanks for the response. But what's the difference between selling an item on the AH with the Pristine System opposed to the current system? If you were selling the Skorn in the current system, wouldn't it be the same value as in the Pristine System? It's not like everyone will be finding Skorns and the demand on the AH will die.
I have also thought about manual trades not affecting Pristine. I'm not sure, but something doesn't feel right about letting those extra stats transfer all around. Maybe it would work fine though.
Just to be clear. I am not against the AH completely. I actually prefer it to manual trades, the chat is a mess (to me!). I am looking for a solution that balances the Auction House with Gear Found Playing. There is no balance now. Everyone uses 99.99% gear from the AH, if you are looking to have the best gear you can. I think with my idea, players will have about 10-50% Found Gear from Playing, and the rest from the Auction House. Hardcore players might eventually have mainly Found Gear from Playing (what a thought). That is my goal anyways.
The main issue is, once you do find that nice "pristine" Skorn, you have become 20% more powerful in that slot. The game isn't exactly super-difficult as it is, so you are, for all intents and purposes, creating a MASSIVE point of balance concern.
Do you balance monsters around these "pristine" items, or do you just let people who get pristine items have an even easier gameplay experience?
I mean you're basically proposing a Skorn that has max stats of 1600-1700 DPS, 240% critical damage, 7.20% life leech, and a BONUS property. How does such a massive increase in stats work with monsters that have to be killable? Is MP10 going to become only for "pristine"-geared toons? Or will "pristine" items just make it that if you're farming MP10 you'll be able to do it 20% faster, thus mandating "pristine" items for efficiency?
Thanks for the response! I just wanted to touch on your point that the item would be ruined from trading it. The item would be exactly what it would've been if Pristine didn't exist, once it's traded. It's wouldn't be "worse" than now. It's just extra great to the Hero that Discovered it.
Find awesome Skorn, it has awesome bonuses because I found it.
Go to sell/trade the same Skorn and it loses extra attributes and ~20% stats.
Is that right? If so, then the issue is that the item becomes devalued at trade. Sure, that Skorn could still be sold or traded but an items value is inherent to its stats so all of a sudden my BiS item becomes middle of the pack at best. A quick glance at the economy shows middle of the pack stuff is all but useless. I want to have that flexibility to know that if I get a really good item I can use it or get "full market value" for it so I can potentially get something else that I could use. That's all.
Not to beat a dead horse but again the AH does not supply itself and I think it's a tad disingeuine to phrase things in a way that makes it seem like people are just going to the AH and buying items like you would from an in game vendor. Sure people buy items from the AH, but it's a player driven economy and you are in essence trading.
The Mystic seems like a better balance as it gives the players choice. There is a little risk versus reward excitement with it, or at least based on what we know now. The Pristine versus Worn system doesn't give me choice; it takes some away if I am being honest.
I'm not meaning to take a big old dump on your idea, and I hope it's not reading that way. Just offering up my opinions on the matter.
Edit: Shaggy's point is excellent as well and another point that would need to be taken into consideration with a system like this.
Yes, that is correct. But think about how rare it is to find that "Perfect drop Skorn" as it is. If YOU find it, it is going to reward you well. Currently, you'd probably sell it right away, no? But now, it motivates you to possibly keep it, OR make a killing off it.
Here's the thing. Finding that "Perfectly rolled Pristine Legendary" for YOUR build isn't going to be close to common. The once in a lifetime occasion you do find a perfectly rolled legendary, it most likely won't be the one you were looking for. You then have the option to adjust your build to take advantage of it, or sell it off as a Great but not Pristine Legendary into the economy.
I don't see this frequently breaking damage barriers and upsetting balance.
Your point is fair in theory but practice would crush it. The odds of finding a Skorn that is within range of 20% of the ones that are available on the AH and affordable are still extremely small. Look at those high end people who still use ilvl62 amulets from the AH instead of crafted ones.
This idea only tips the odds of finding good gear in our favor, which is brilliant. This does not create characters that are 120% times as powerful as before. Not even close, I doubt a 5% increase in power, maybe 1%.
edit: Snap7, your idea was nice, too, but this one is better. In your iteration, players could still obtain the items from the AH, in this one only the actual finder receives the bonus value.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450