(mature responses only!) (please read all before responding) so listening to a diablo cast with force and sixen about inferno mode. sixen said he would really like to debate with someone on how inferno mode is end-game. well I'm here sir, and more then happy to talk it out with you calmly and maturely.
sixen made a point of comparing it to World of Warcraft (calm down people) and saying how basically heroics and raids count as end-game but inferno mode doesn't, because its not really "different" then the other 3 difficulties. playing the same quests just super hard. but this is exactly what diablo is all about, the game getting harder and harder till you get one-shotted by a goblin unless your decked out. and by making it level capped to 61 its extremely hard the whole time, if act 1 in inferno was insanely nearly impossibly hard, and it got harder and harder, then act 4 would basically be pointless and impossible for anyone no matter what. so it stays hard because you can't level up any further.
so farming heroics for gear is completely different then farming inferno for gear? please tell me how, its nearly the exact same thing, all end-game in wow and rift and diablo and most any and all RPG's IS a grindfest for gear, and staying true to the spirit of diablo inferno mode is JUST as much "end game" as farming heroics/raids countless times for gear is in WoW. in fact its even more fun and BETTER then WoW because the drops are random and your not trying to kill the SAME dragon 500 times to drop that sweet helmet you want for the past 5 months just to have it ninja'd over and over by people who don't need it. the fact that you can SOLO the entire end game content makes it way more enjoyable, imagine if you could solo heroics and raids, it just took longer, you wouldn't have to sit there for 5-8 hours finding a pug just for it to fail epically, or spend weeks trying to find a raiding guild just to not be able to make it to any of the timed raids because you actually have a life or work, lol.
this is my strong opinion, not trying to troll just would like to debate about this with people who have opposite opinions or new incite to this subject, sixen said he wanted to debate, id more then welcome his input on this. <3
I didn't watch the video, but comparing it to WoW sounds a bit shallow and ignorant. Grinding dungeons is...what you did in Diablo 2. You grinded baal, chaos sanc, and pindleskin. With inferno, you have the entire game at your disposal. What exactly is bad about that?
I didn't watch the video, but comparing it to WoW sounds a bit shallow and ignorant. Grinding dungeons is...what you did in Diablo 2. You grinded baal, chaos sanc, and pindleskin. With inferno, you have the entire game at your disposal. What exactly is bad about that?
I'll probably get flamed for this, but in my opinion Inferno shouldn't drop any gear. You should make do with the gear you got from Hell and there should be several achievements throughout Inferno so other people could see how far you've come with a certain character through Inferno so there's some prestige to it.
Maybe Inferno could drop gems and runes and all that, but no armor, weapons, etc.
I doubt Blizz will make it like this though.
no i get what your saying completely, but how does making it drop those things and give achievements, but no gear make it so much different? you wouldn't want to have an amazingly sweet helmet you can only find in inferno mode and show it off to people? that in itself would be an achievement everyone could witness in any game you joined. just my opinion on the gear aspect. maybe not drop ENTIRE new sets of gear so you replace EVERYTHING, you know? just maybe a couple things, or hey just weapons? ya that would be cool, runes, gems, and the best weapons in the game.
I haven't had the chance to listen to the cast yet, but I believe some of the major differences between D3 and WoW include:
You can actually solo inferno difficulty (I'm not sure why people say otherwise, it hasn't been said or implied that you had to be in a party to make it through inferno).
As you said, gear is randomized. In wow, you roll on need/greed for 1 item.
There are no instances, the whole game is an instance. As such exploring different areas is encouraged (unlike wow).
There's probably more, I just can't think of any right now.
I'll probably get flamed for this, but in my opinion Inferno shouldn't drop any gear. You should make do with the gear you got from Hell and there should be several achievements throughout Inferno so other people could see how far you've come with a certain character through Inferno so there's some prestige to it.
Maybe Inferno could drop gems and runes and all that, but no armor, weapons, etc.
I doubt Blizz will make it like this though.
no i get what your saying completely, but how does making it drop those things and give achievements, but no gear make it so much different?
I think what they're trying to do with the Inferno level, is make the playthrough so long with a character, that once people beat Hell they can't resist to move on to Inferno and this level will be so long and difficult that it'll take many moons to complete. It's only grinding if people go through an area again and again. I'm sure you wouldn't go through Inferno areas twice since the risk of dying lies just around the next corner.
Or maybe we should just get used to the fact that grinding is part of the Diablo franchise. People can do what they want as far as I'm concerned. If they think going through the same area again and again is fun then so be it. But with Inferno, I think we'll see far less grinding in Hell.
true, why grind in hell when inferno has 10x better drops. and also i don't think it'll take "many moons" especially if its solo able, if you can go through hell act 1-act 4 in practically a day, i doubt inferno would take more then a few days or week max to beat it then you'll just do whatever parts you enjoyed the most (or just the whole thing again) to get the absolute best gear possible. so grinding is inevitable, in fact jay wilson said the point of inferno was for grinding, but making it hard throughout so theres just more stuff to grind so your not repeating the same boss 1000x times, your repeating the entire game.
I haven't had the chance to listen to the cast yet, but I believe some of the major differences between D3 and WoW include:
You can actually solo inferno difficulty (I'm not sure why people say otherwise, it hasn't been said or implied that you had to be in a party to make it through inferno).
As you said, gear is randomized. In wow, you roll on need/greed for 1 item.
There are no instances, the whole game is an instance. As such exploring different areas is encouraged (unlike wow).
There's probably more, I just can't think of any right now.
of course there are many many differences between wow and diablo, those are good points you made. but the point of the debate is if Inferno could be considered "end game content" or not. what are your thoughts on that.
I agree with sixen, it is not end game and if it was they wouldn't say there was more end game to come. Sixens point was they didn't make end game they just made another difficulty and I believe he also said they coulda just made nightmare you reach 60 and hell flat. He is right they didn't make anything new. So essentially if you complete inferno then what are you grinding gear for? If you kill diablo on inferno then why would you need better gear he is already killable? the only true incentive at the end of inferno is to sell gear on RMAH.
I like inferno but it needs to come with some patched in content shortly after release cause once I beat inferno I have technically beat the game and there is no reason to play that character. I know they will release some new areas and content for end game. They just can't make release with those already in game.
You also need to remember video games have changed since 2000 when D2 came out back then we were happy just grinding away for the sake of grinding gear and trading. Now we have higher standards and we expect to be grinding gear so I can clear dungeon A then use Gear from Dungeon A for B and so on.
+1 to OP. I definately think inferno is viable for end game. It will be so fun once I finally beat inferno I will prolly go back to my favorite area (area I like playing the most or is most fun) and you know just play the game from there, this is much better than finding the most efficient way to do runs, instead you can farm or run what you think was the most fun and when you do find those epic items it will be so much more meaningful IMO. Now I also don't think inferno is the ONLY endgame feature I think pvp will play a fairrly big role in endgame as well. All in all I think inferno will give players just as much time played as D2 runs gave players.
For Blizzard to say Inferno is "end-game" does sorta seem like a cheap cop-out. There are literally tons of end-game ideas out there yet they implemented none of them and instead are just adjusting monsters to lvl 61... seems sort of lazy to me.
To me end-game content should be a sort of fun or challenging competitive Test! You shouldn't be still building your character in an end-game, you should be putting your character and skills to the Ultimate Test - Whether it be against other players, a never-ending horde, or an uber boss- it should still push your character to the limit and hopefully, over the limit.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Blizzard used to care about releasing Diablo III, then they all took an arrow in the knee...
Inferno is endgame, but even with four players it's not as organization-heavy as raiding or even a heroic dungeon.
Each is a successful metagame in it's own right, I don't see a reason to criticize one over the other. We're talking about apples and oranges. Clearly a raid paradigm isn't for D3. Clearly such a casual approach to endgame doesn't work for WoW.
Endgame is ultimately what you make of it. Blizzard has provided 100x more "endgame," content than they had with D2 and yet I spent years playing D2. Personally, I don't see a negative. Yeah, ultimately every gear-driven rpg is a hamster-wheel that you run over and over again. What's new? Where is the cause for concern or debate?
I feel as though i'm being presented with a blue sky and have been told it's somehow gone wrong.
I agree with sixen, it is not end game and if it was they wouldn't say there was more end game to come. Sixens point was they didn't make end game they just made another difficulty and I believe he also said they coulda just made nightmare you reach 60 and hell flat. He is right they didn't make anything new. So essentially if you complete inferno then what are you grinding gear for? If you kill diablo on inferno then why would you need better gear he is already killable? the only true incentive at the end of inferno is to sell gear on RMAH.
I like inferno but it needs to come with some patched in content shortly after release cause once I beat inferno I have technically beat the game and there is no reason to play that character. I know they will release some new areas and content for end game. They just can't make release with those already in game.
You also need to remember video games have changed since 2000 when D2 came out back then we were happy just grinding away for the sake of grinding gear and trading. Now we have higher standards and we expect to be grinding gear so I can clear dungeon A then use Gear from Dungeon A for B and so on.
did you even read what i wrote? i said to read the entire thing before replying, because if you did you would of read my comparison of wow "end game" and diablo, and its how diablo is made. they wouldn't say more end game to come? world of warcraft has CONSTANT updates to "end game" so that argument is completely invalid. and if your doing raids to get the best gear then your getting that gear to what... repeat that raid or the heroics OVER AND OVER, because like you said, if its already beatable, whats the point? exactly how diablo is with inferno, its exactly the same thing. your getting gear from act 1 to continue to act 2 and so on to be able to beat it easier and continue owning monsters for fun, exactly how you would repeat heroics and raids once you have the gear for fun. you haven't really made any valid points against what I've already said, please read the thread and consider the opposing points before you just post your one-side opinion, if everyone didn't consider the points of each persons argument then respond as such to each point it wouldn't be a debate, it would be a bunch of people spamming their opinion.
For Blizzard to say Inferno is "end-game" does sorta seem like a cheap cop-out. There are literally tons of end-game ideas out there yet they implemented none of them and instead are just adjusting monsters to lvl 61... seems sort of lazy to me.
To me end-game content should be a sort of fun or challenging competitive Test! You shouldn't be still building your character in an end-game, you should be putting your character and skills to the Ultimate Test - Whether it be against other players, a never-ending horde, or an uber boss- it should still push your character to the limit and hopefully, over the limit.
using wow as a comparison because everyone (but mostly about sixen) considers it end game. and in wow "end game" you are still building your character, honing your skills and getting the best gear exactly how inferno is. so i don't see how that point makes inferno not end game when its comparable to heroics and raids like I've pointed out.
Is inferno end game?... It IS end game in an ARPG viewpoint because ARPGs like champions of norrath, baldurs gate, diablo, titan quest, etc. are all about grinding until you get the best stuff and then mastering how to play your "perfect" character through the hardest difficulty runs and PvP. I don't understand how a special level, events within the game, daily quests or anything else would be any different.
Sixen said something about raids being end game for WoW and yeah it's either that or delving into PvP basically... but the equivalent in Diablo 3 would be to just add 1 extra hard new dungeon with the best loot. While Inferno isn't brand new content I'd say Blizzard did something above and beyond that by making the entire game like a raid which is pretty cool. If something like a raid qualifies "end game content" I'd say inferno difficulty easily makes it into that category.
I think based on what Sixen said about end game he'd like a unicorn level or something totally unique like that where all the monsters have like 5 levels on you and you cant get the drops anywhere else and they're also so much better than the stuff you can get in the "campaign" mode that they're absolutely game breaking when you go back for new play-throughs...
In all seriousness though, I don't get how inferno wouldn't be considered "end game content" for a game like Diablo... it's completely what the game is all about.
EDIT: ALSO!!!!!! when you beat your heroic raids and are totally geared up in a game like WoW it's the same as completing the game fully... Beating Diablo on inferno is the same thing.. so I don't get that mentality either.
Is inferno end game?... It IS end game in an ARPG viewpoint because ARPGs like champions of norrath, baldurs gate, diablo, titan quest, etc. are all about grinding until you get the best stuff and then mastering how to play your "perfect" character through the hardest difficulty runs and PvP. I don't understand how a special level, events within the game, daily quests or anything else would be any different.
Sixen said something about raids being end game for WoW and yeah it's either that or delving into PvP basically... but the equivalent in Diablo 3 would be to just add 1 extra hard new dungeon with the best loot. While Inferno isn't brand new content I'd say Blizzard did something above and beyond that by making the entire game like a raid which is pretty cool. If something like a raid qualifies "end game content" I'd say inferno difficulty easily makes it into that category.
I think based on what Sixen said about end game he'd like a unicorn level or something totally unique like that where all the monsters have like 5 levels on you and you cant get the drops anywhere else and they're also so much better than the stuff you can get in the "campaign" mode that they're absolutely game breaking when you go back for new play-throughs...
In all seriousness though, I don't get how inferno wouldn't be considered "end game content" for a game like Diablo... it's completely what the game is all about.
EDIT: ALSO!!!!!! when you beat your heroic raids and are totally geared up in a game like WoW it's the same as completing the game fully... Beating Diablo on inferno is the same thing.. so I don't get that mentality either.
thanks a lot wizard, good points you made and i of course 100% agree. people who say its not end game (like sixen) honestly don't realize the true nature of diablo and its gameplay, I'm sure sixen has played diablo but his mind is so warped by an MMO (wow) that he looks at it like its an MMO and not like an ARPG like you pointed out, which is why i was up for the debate because i knew i was right from my stand point haha.
did you even read what i wrote? i said to read the entire thing before replying, because if you did you would of read my comparison of wow "end game" and diablo, and its how diablo is made. they wouldn't say more end game to come? world of warcraft has CONSTANT updates to "end game" so that argument is completely invalid. and if your doing raids to get the best gear then your getting that gear to what... repeat that raid or the heroics OVER AND OVER, because like you said, if its already beatable, whats the point? exactly how diablo is with inferno, its exactly the same thing. your getting gear from act 1 to continue to act 2 and so on to be able to beat it easier and continue owning monsters for fun, exactly how you would repeat heroics and raids once you have the gear for fun. you haven't really made any valid points against what I've already said, please read the thread and consider the opposing points before you just post your one-side opinion, if everyone didn't consider the points of each persons argument then respond as such to each point it wouldn't be a debate, it would be a bunch of people spamming their opinion.
First learn how to write instead of using one huge block of text which no one wants to read. Second you said in the OP keep it mature you are failing to do so. Third, I am entitled to my opinion and I was supporting sixen who obviously hasn't been able to comment yet. Finally, I did read your entire thread it was mainly you just repeating your opinion and talking in circles.
Inferno will be fun for awhile, however to the original question is it end game or filler? It is filler until Blizzard releases content patches. If it wasn't filler they would add something new instead of just giving the monsters a buff. It'll be hard for awhile and then it will be easy. Then they release new stuff. Repeat.
Is inferno end game?... It IS end game in an ARPG viewpoint because ARPGs like champions of norrath, baldurs gate, diablo, titan quest, etc. are all about grinding until you get the best stuff and then mastering how to play your "perfect" character through the hardest difficulty runs and PvP. I don't understand how a special level, events within the game, daily quests or anything else would be any different.
Sixen said something about raids being end game for WoW and yeah it's either that or delving into PvP basically... but the equivalent in Diablo 3 would be to just add 1 extra hard new dungeon with the best loot. While Inferno isn't brand new content I'd say Blizzard did something above and beyond that by making the entire game like a raid which is pretty cool. If something like a raid qualifies "end game content" I'd say inferno difficulty easily makes it into that category.
I think based on what Sixen said about end game he'd like a unicorn level or something totally unique like that where all the monsters have like 5 levels on you and you cant get the drops anywhere else and they're also so much better than the stuff you can get in the "campaign" mode that they're absolutely game breaking when you go back for new play-throughs...
In all seriousness though, I don't get how inferno wouldn't be considered "end game content" for a game like Diablo... it's completely what the game is all about.
EDIT: ALSO!!!!!! when you beat your heroic raids and are totally geared up in a game like WoW it's the same as completing the game fully... Beating Diablo on inferno is the same thing.. so I don't get that mentality either.
Pretty much correct. Inferno I think certainly is an "end game" but I feel that d2 and hopefully d3 will have multiple end game content.
D2 had PvP, gear perfecting, many builds, ubers, dclone, cow level etc. D3 appears to have these as well but will make grinding less boring. Obviously they might not have the last 3 I mentioned specifically, but I'd be shocked if they didn't have other variations similar to this. I also think that if they don't have some of these, they WILL add them in eventually as they did in D2.
Is inferno end game?... It IS end game in an ARPG viewpoint because ARPGs like champions of norrath, baldurs gate, diablo, titan quest, etc. are all about grinding until you get the best stuff and then mastering how to play your "perfect" character through the hardest difficulty runs and PvP. I don't understand how a special level, events within the game, daily quests or anything else would be any different.
Sixen said something about raids being end game for WoW and yeah it's either that or delving into PvP basically... but the equivalent in Diablo 3 would be to just add 1 extra hard new dungeon with the best loot. While Inferno isn't brand new content I'd say Blizzard did something above and beyond that by making the entire game like a raid which is pretty cool. If something like a raid qualifies "end game content" I'd say inferno difficulty easily makes it into that category.
I think based on what Sixen said about end game he'd like a unicorn level or something totally unique like that where all the monsters have like 5 levels on you and you cant get the drops anywhere else and they're also so much better than the stuff you can get in the "campaign" mode that they're absolutely game breaking when you go back for new play-throughs...
In all seriousness though, I don't get how inferno wouldn't be considered "end game content" for a game like Diablo... it's completely what the game is all about.
EDIT: ALSO!!!!!! when you beat your heroic raids and are totally geared up in a game like WoW it's the same as completing the game fully... Beating Diablo on inferno is the same thing.. so I don't get that mentality either.
Pretty much correct. Inferno I think certainly is an "end game" but I feel that d2 and hopefully d3 will have multiple end game content.
D2 had PvP, gear perfecting, many builds, ubers, dclone, cow level etc. D3 appears to have these as well but will make grinding less boring. Obviously they might not have the last 3 I mentioned specifically, but I'd be shocked if they didn't have other variations similar to this. I also think that if they don't have some of these, they WILL add them in eventually as they did in D2.
Yes yes I'm with you on that but they already confirmed they're going to do more! they're just shipping with inferno but they will release extra "end game" content with patches and such which should be very exciting.
And to Stev89 -> read my post, it should answer
"Inferno will be fun for awhile, however to the original question is it end game or filler? It is filler until Blizzard releases content patches. If it wasn't filler they would add something new instead of just giving the monsters a buff. It'll be hard for awhile and then it will be easy. Then they release new stuff. Repeat."
did you even read what i wrote? i said to read the entire thing before replying, because if you did you would of read my comparison of wow "end game" and diablo, and its how diablo is made. they wouldn't say more end game to come? world of warcraft has CONSTANT updates to "end game" so that argument is completely invalid. and if your doing raids to get the best gear then your getting that gear to what... repeat that raid or the heroics OVER AND OVER, because like you said, if its already beatable, whats the point? exactly how diablo is with inferno, its exactly the same thing. your getting gear from act 1 to continue to act 2 and so on to be able to beat it easier and continue owning monsters for fun, exactly how you would repeat heroics and raids once you have the gear for fun. you haven't really made any valid points against what I've already said, please read the thread and consider the opposing points before you just post your one-side opinion, if everyone didn't consider the points of each persons argument then respond as such to each point it wouldn't be a debate, it would be a bunch of people spamming their opinion.
First learn how to write instead of using one huge block of text which no one wants to read. Second you said in the OP keep it mature you are failing to do so. Third, I am entitled to my opinion and I was supporting sixen who obviously hasn't been able to comment yet. Finally, I did read your entire thread it was mainly you just repeating your opinion and talking in circles.
Inferno will be fun for awhile, however to the original question is it end game or filler? It is filler until Blizzard releases content patches. If it wasn't filler they would add something new instead of just giving the monsters a buff. It'll be hard for awhile and then it will be easy. Then they release new stuff. Repeat.
sure i was a bit aggressive and i apologize if you got offended, but this is a debate, and you repeating sixens opinion without any new valid points isn't contributing anything, i could repost my original thread as a response to what you said. and thats all i pointed out, you have thrown the first stone acting like a troll being the grammar police and attacking what i said which has no baring on the subject. if you can't have a mature conversation and make actual debatable points then don't post in mature threads please.
I have to agree with Phrozendragon that Inferno is endgame content. However, like all end game content... it gets repetitive over a certain amount of time and new end game is needed. Why do you think games like Ultima Online, World of Warcraft, and Diablo 2 are updated? Because constant ideas for endgame are needed. I stress "needed". Inferno will be temporary endgame content... that said... (IT IS END GAME CONTENT MATERIAL AND FITS WITH WHAT DIABLO 3 IS DOING BUT WILL NOT END WITH IT). End game content is a process of new maps and events becoming available overtime when needed. Something will come along in a patch or expansion that will extend end game content.
koryman101 brings up good points. I suspect that the type of end game content that becomes available in the future will be similar to Inferno with respect to the whole grinding and % chance random drops with lower rates of kill aspects. Thus renewing the play value for the game. I hope that pandemonium/infinate mob like events will pop up, and based on the progress you make in each attempt, you have a % chance to get a packaged mystery item that may hold a inferno like quality of gear.
I digress, Inferno is meant to challenge players the way Diablo 2 never could by extending the level of the monsters beyond our own. Inferno is also promoting teamwork to get through it. In diablo 2, you never really needed a team to get through the content. (I remember doing solo Baal runs with the paladin and sorceress). Inferno makes it so that even people who have Inferno type quality of gear will still have trouble with the difficulty and will need help to go through it. By forcing this upon players, not only is the rate of kills decreased but you also must have 4 players to get through it in any reasonable amount of time.
Cheers for the good debate,
Juystafan
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
sixen made a point of comparing it to World of Warcraft (calm down people) and saying how basically heroics and raids count as end-game but inferno mode doesn't, because its not really "different" then the other 3 difficulties. playing the same quests just super hard. but this is exactly what diablo is all about, the game getting harder and harder till you get one-shotted by a goblin unless your decked out. and by making it level capped to 61 its extremely hard the whole time, if act 1 in inferno was insanely nearly impossibly hard, and it got harder and harder, then act 4 would basically be pointless and impossible for anyone no matter what. so it stays hard because you can't level up any further.
so farming heroics for gear is completely different then farming inferno for gear? please tell me how, its nearly the exact same thing, all end-game in wow and rift and diablo and most any and all RPG's IS a grindfest for gear, and staying true to the spirit of diablo inferno mode is JUST as much "end game" as farming heroics/raids countless times for gear is in WoW. in fact its even more fun and BETTER then WoW because the drops are random and your not trying to kill the SAME dragon 500 times to drop that sweet helmet you want for the past 5 months just to have it ninja'd over and over by people who don't need it. the fact that you can SOLO the entire end game content makes it way more enjoyable, imagine if you could solo heroics and raids, it just took longer, you wouldn't have to sit there for 5-8 hours finding a pug just for it to fail epically, or spend weeks trying to find a raiding guild just to not be able to make it to any of the timed raids because you actually have a life or work, lol.
this is my strong opinion, not trying to troll just would like to debate about this with people who have opposite opinions or new incite to this subject, sixen said he wanted to debate, id more then welcome his input on this. <3
my point exactly sir, you have my vote
no i get what your saying completely, but how does making it drop those things and give achievements, but no gear make it so much different? you wouldn't want to have an amazingly sweet helmet you can only find in inferno mode and show it off to people? that in itself would be an achievement everyone could witness in any game you joined. just my opinion on the gear aspect. maybe not drop ENTIRE new sets of gear so you replace EVERYTHING, you know? just maybe a couple things, or hey just weapons? ya that would be cool, runes, gems, and the best weapons in the game.
true, why grind in hell when inferno has 10x better drops. and also i don't think it'll take "many moons" especially if its solo able, if you can go through hell act 1-act 4 in practically a day, i doubt inferno would take more then a few days or week max to beat it then you'll just do whatever parts you enjoyed the most (or just the whole thing again) to get the absolute best gear possible. so grinding is inevitable, in fact jay wilson said the point of inferno was for grinding, but making it hard throughout so theres just more stuff to grind so your not repeating the same boss 1000x times, your repeating the entire game.
of course there are many many differences between wow and diablo, those are good points you made. but the point of the debate is if Inferno could be considered "end game content" or not. what are your thoughts on that.
I like inferno but it needs to come with some patched in content shortly after release cause once I beat inferno I have technically beat the game and there is no reason to play that character. I know they will release some new areas and content for end game. They just can't make release with those already in game.
You also need to remember video games have changed since 2000 when D2 came out back then we were happy just grinding away for the sake of grinding gear and trading. Now we have higher standards and we expect to be grinding gear so I can clear dungeon A then use Gear from Dungeon A for B and so on.
To me end-game content should be a sort of fun or challenging competitive Test! You shouldn't be still building your character in an end-game, you should be putting your character and skills to the Ultimate Test - Whether it be against other players, a never-ending horde, or an uber boss- it should still push your character to the limit and hopefully, over the limit.
Each is a successful metagame in it's own right, I don't see a reason to criticize one over the other. We're talking about apples and oranges. Clearly a raid paradigm isn't for D3. Clearly such a casual approach to endgame doesn't work for WoW.
Endgame is ultimately what you make of it. Blizzard has provided 100x more "endgame," content than they had with D2 and yet I spent years playing D2. Personally, I don't see a negative. Yeah, ultimately every gear-driven rpg is a hamster-wheel that you run over and over again. What's new? Where is the cause for concern or debate?
I feel as though i'm being presented with a blue sky and have been told it's somehow gone wrong.
did you even read what i wrote? i said to read the entire thing before replying, because if you did you would of read my comparison of wow "end game" and diablo, and its how diablo is made. they wouldn't say more end game to come? world of warcraft has CONSTANT updates to "end game" so that argument is completely invalid. and if your doing raids to get the best gear then your getting that gear to what... repeat that raid or the heroics OVER AND OVER, because like you said, if its already beatable, whats the point? exactly how diablo is with inferno, its exactly the same thing. your getting gear from act 1 to continue to act 2 and so on to be able to beat it easier and continue owning monsters for fun, exactly how you would repeat heroics and raids once you have the gear for fun. you haven't really made any valid points against what I've already said, please read the thread and consider the opposing points before you just post your one-side opinion, if everyone didn't consider the points of each persons argument then respond as such to each point it wouldn't be a debate, it would be a bunch of people spamming their opinion.
using wow as a comparison because everyone (but mostly about sixen) considers it end game. and in wow "end game" you are still building your character, honing your skills and getting the best gear exactly how inferno is. so i don't see how that point makes inferno not end game when its comparable to heroics and raids like I've pointed out.
Sixen said something about raids being end game for WoW and yeah it's either that or delving into PvP basically... but the equivalent in Diablo 3 would be to just add 1 extra hard new dungeon with the best loot. While Inferno isn't brand new content I'd say Blizzard did something above and beyond that by making the entire game like a raid which is pretty cool. If something like a raid qualifies "end game content" I'd say inferno difficulty easily makes it into that category.
I think based on what Sixen said about end game he'd like a unicorn level or something totally unique like that where all the monsters have like 5 levels on you and you cant get the drops anywhere else and they're also so much better than the stuff you can get in the "campaign" mode that they're absolutely game breaking when you go back for new play-throughs...
In all seriousness though, I don't get how inferno wouldn't be considered "end game content" for a game like Diablo... it's completely what the game is all about.
EDIT: ALSO!!!!!! when you beat your heroic raids and are totally geared up in a game like WoW it's the same as completing the game fully... Beating Diablo on inferno is the same thing.. so I don't get that mentality either.
thanks a lot wizard, good points you made and i of course 100% agree. people who say its not end game (like sixen) honestly don't realize the true nature of diablo and its gameplay, I'm sure sixen has played diablo but his mind is so warped by an MMO (wow) that he looks at it like its an MMO and not like an ARPG like you pointed out, which is why i was up for the debate because i knew i was right from my stand point haha.
First learn how to write instead of using one huge block of text which no one wants to read. Second you said in the OP keep it mature you are failing to do so. Third, I am entitled to my opinion and I was supporting sixen who obviously hasn't been able to comment yet. Finally, I did read your entire thread it was mainly you just repeating your opinion and talking in circles.
Inferno will be fun for awhile, however to the original question is it end game or filler? It is filler until Blizzard releases content patches. If it wasn't filler they would add something new instead of just giving the monsters a buff. It'll be hard for awhile and then it will be easy. Then they release new stuff. Repeat.
D2 had PvP, gear perfecting, many builds, ubers, dclone, cow level etc. D3 appears to have these as well but will make grinding less boring. Obviously they might not have the last 3 I mentioned specifically, but I'd be shocked if they didn't have other variations similar to this. I also think that if they don't have some of these, they WILL add them in eventually as they did in D2.
Yes yes I'm with you on that but they already confirmed they're going to do more! they're just shipping with inferno but they will release extra "end game" content with patches and such which should be very exciting.
And to Stev89 -> read my post, it should answer
"Inferno will be fun for awhile, however to the original question is it end game or filler? It is filler until Blizzard releases content patches. If it wasn't filler they would add something new instead of just giving the monsters a buff. It'll be hard for awhile and then it will be easy. Then they release new stuff. Repeat."
sure i was a bit aggressive and i apologize if you got offended, but this is a debate, and you repeating sixens opinion without any new valid points isn't contributing anything, i could repost my original thread as a response to what you said. and thats all i pointed out, you have thrown the first stone acting like a troll being the grammar police and attacking what i said which has no baring on the subject. if you can't have a mature conversation and make actual debatable points then don't post in mature threads please.
koryman101 brings up good points. I suspect that the type of end game content that becomes available in the future will be similar to Inferno with respect to the whole grinding and % chance random drops with lower rates of kill aspects. Thus renewing the play value for the game. I hope that pandemonium/infinate mob like events will pop up, and based on the progress you make in each attempt, you have a % chance to get a packaged mystery item that may hold a inferno like quality of gear.
I digress, Inferno is meant to challenge players the way Diablo 2 never could by extending the level of the monsters beyond our own. Inferno is also promoting teamwork to get through it. In diablo 2, you never really needed a team to get through the content. (I remember doing solo Baal runs with the paladin and sorceress). Inferno makes it so that even people who have Inferno type quality of gear will still have trouble with the difficulty and will need help to go through it. By forcing this upon players, not only is the rate of kills decreased but you also must have 4 players to get through it in any reasonable amount of time.
Cheers for the good debate,
Juystafan