I'm not making this a poll because I'm sure half the people that vote wouldn't actually think about it enough.
I was just thinking about what was discussed in the Diablocast this week in regards to crafting PvP gear, and Force mentioned resilience gear. He was then told it wasn't going to happen by one of the others, to which he then suggested he hoped there would at least be some high hp and survivability gear for the arena.
Drawing direct comparisons from Wow's arena, Diablo has no healers. There are no holy pallys, or resto druids that can just heal forever through seamless amounts of insane DPS until after 20mins they run OOM. As such survivability for a Double dps team in diablo (which is everything really) would require far less survivability than their Wow counterpart.
In Wow for example, A frost mage can sustain decent dps on a warrior while virtually shutting him out of the game, and should he be teamed with no healer, hes pretty much a dead boxing bag. Do you really want that to happen to barbarians vsing wizards in Diablo. Sure i don't think that a wizard should get pumped in 2 hits from the barb(altho i know every1 kinda wants it a little bit). It should be a relatively fair fight.
Giving squishes survivability in wow was necessary so that they could deal with Dmg healer teams and still remain competitive. I do acknowledge gear having more resistance in Diablo, which compared to wow, will give a physical class more of an advantage.
Keen to hear everyone's thoughts, especially people who pvp'd or still pvp in wow(in some serious arena).
Personally, I don't want PvP-based stats such as Resilience; to me, it is just one extra thing to collect and grind for just to have fun. I hated that in WoW; all I wanted to do was blow people up in my spare time when I'm not concentrating on PvE but use my PvE gear, save for a few possible exceptions of talisman, gems, jewelry, and maybe an armor piece or two. It's not that I don't care enough about PvP to get a dedicated gear set, but just that I feel PvE gear should be on par with PvP gear in both realms. If a piece is more useful in one than the other, that's fine, but not when pieces are made for PvP.
However, I am all for PvE-based stats that hold higher priority in PvP, such as Health, Defense, Resists, Accuracy, and especially auxiliary stats that affect overall combat such as Movement Speed. As a personal preference, I will most likely PvP with a full on PvE gear with maybe some exceptions as listed above: talisman, gems, jewelry, etc.
My prediction is that Diablo III will not have PvP-specific stats, but may have a few end-game pieces of equipment that is definitely more useful in PvP than in PvE. The only pieces of equipment that I would support being fully PvP-based are talisman, gems, jewelry, and perhaps weapons designed for PvP, such as weapons with bleed, knockback, slow, or other. The gems, talisman, and other micro gear stats would still give hardcore PvP players something to grind for to be "complete" but it shouldn't hold a huge edge against average PvP players that use mostly PvE gear. This also makes weapon choice more situational and maybe interesting tactics combining weapons with skills(not sure how it would work for casters though).
Diablo III PvP should be way more about character set-up than it is about gear. Not saying gear shouldn't be important, but definitely how your character plays will be a much larger factor. Blizzard is putting in so much effort to make character development fun, unique, and more individualistic, I don't see why they wouldn't want this to be the main attraction to both PvE and PvP.
Concerning PvP - in WoW it was completely a team effort. One guy would tank, another would DPS, someone would heal, someone would buff and so on. In D3 it's going to be more of a DPS battle. Whichever team dishes out the most damage the fastest will win. Sure some of the monk's auras can help but the monk will be sacrificing damage for it. The teams are also a lot smaller in D3 (I think the most is 4v4, correct me if I'm wrong). PvP in D3 will be in a completely different field to WoW.
I agree with Helfeather, the skills will make enough of a difference for those that want to PvP 24/7. We don't need gear to separate the groups further. No doubt there will be gear that's better for PvP still. It's just a matter of finding out what works best.
I'm going to be someone who PvE's most of the time, but enters the arena when I get bored or want something different. PvP offers a unique challenge but I don't want it to be something I have to use a cookie cut build for. I want to jump from PvE to PvP and have some chance of winning a match every now and again.
I don't mind PvP gear as long as it doesn't influence PvE. I don't want to kill a boss and he drops a PvP item. That sucks for a PvE player. PvP gear for winning a lot in arena? Go ahead. But that PvP gear better not work in the PvE side of the game.
As Ophion said you can simply favor more survivability in your PvP gear and build, and instead of resilience, which basically modifies certain skills like DoTs, D3 will instead just modify those skills in PvP. Snares and stuns and the like will function differently in the arena (and any other PvP modes implemented). So theres no need for a PvP stat. And it allows them to not reward gear for PvP activities which keeps the emphasis on PvE.
Any game mechanic that can make or break a fight ALONE should not be included. I remember getting 95% fire resistance. This pretty much was a guarenteed loss for any fire sorceress. Also, changing gear just to face 1 class is pretty lame too. Oh your a cold sorceress? I'll just wear my cold resistance shield and you lose.
No pvp specific items plz!
Evaluating the best pvp stats for your character and seeking for those specific stats on e.g. a rare item was and will be one awesome reason for why diablo is so great. Isn't it?
Nay. I dot think PvP gear would be a good idea. Seperate things to much. I want to be able to PvP and not have a disadvantage because I dont want to get PvP gear.
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I agree. I really hated that about WOW. If you wanted to PVP, you couldn't PVE and vice versa. You had to choose your poison. I enjoy all my poison together tyvm.
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-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Concerning PvP - in WoW it was completely a team effort. One guy would tank, another would DPS, someone would heal, someone would buff and so on. In D3 it's going to be more of a DPS battle. Whichever team dishes out the most damage the fastest will win. Sure some of the monk's auras can help but the monk will be sacrificing damage for it. The teams are also a lot smaller in D3 (I think the most is 4v4, correct me if I'm wrong). PvP in D3 will be in a completely different field to WoW.
I agree with Helfeather, the skills will make enough of a difference for those that want to PvP 24/7. We don't need gear to separate the groups further. No doubt there will be gear that's better for PvP still. It's just a matter of finding out what works best.
I'm going to be someone who PvE's most of the time, but enters the arena when I get bored or want something different. PvP offers a unique challenge but I don't want it to be something I have to use a cookie cut build for. I want to jump from PvE to PvP and have some chance of winning a match every now and again.
You cant really tank in PvP, There is no threat. I think you have raised a valid point in that each class's roll is the same in D3 and that is 2 kill and survive, where as in wow you had healers and dps in arena. I think games will look to last no more than 3 or so mins in D3 but i don't see how it will be huge difference(im thinking similar to a double dps vs Double dps in wow). I don't think you can stop cookie cutters completely, there is always going to be a better way of doing things, however i do hope there is a larger variety in d3 and it does look like it will be the case.
Any game mechanic that can make or break a fight ALONE should not be included. I remember getting 95% fire resistance. This pretty much was a guaranteed loss for any fire sorceress. Also, changing gear just to face 1 class is pretty lame too. Oh your a cold sorceress? I'll just wear my cold resistance shield and you lose.
This happened in S1 of WoW arena 2, where warrior pally teams would wear shadow res, as the 2 most common teams were Spriest Lock and War pally, So you either were against a spriest lock and roll em, or against another warrior pally wearing massive Shadow resist and every1 would hit like a girl.
I'm glad most people believe in no PvP gear, now lets pray they listen, and manage to balance well.
There is bound to be SOME gear that is better for PVP, and there will be some gear that will be suited better to PVE. I just hope the differene isint so huge that skill cant compensate for it.
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I don't think you can stop cookie cutters completely, there is always going to be a better way of doing things, however i do hope there is a larger variety in d3 and it does look like it will be the case.
Cookie cutter builds aren't horrible. They provide a starting point for most beginners who don't understand the underlying mechanics in a game. The big problem is when the game is designed around MAKING other builds useless. i.e. When the amazon lost her effective piercing guided arrow (this is me talking about D2 Classic). When the game designers hamper specific skills or stats so severly, it turns cookie cutter builds into the standard with no room for any real creativity.
D3 seems to have a good approach. The amount of variety we are going to see with traits, gems, etc is going to making it highly likely that there is bound to be more than 2-3 different effective builds per class.
Any sort of serious competitive PvP system needs to have that separation or it becomes a joke.
I don't think (or want to for that matter) this will happen in Diablo 3, simply because PvP is not as "serious" business as it is in WoW. PvP in WoW is more like chess, using your abilities to negate the other guys abilities, keeping the pressure up to drain their resources and spiking your damage output to force a kill. This can be a lengthy process. PvP in Diablo was usually fast and furious, nothing like WoW.
I don't agree with that first line up there. I played Ragnarok Online for years, living almost entirely for PvP, which I would consider pretty damn competitive. There was no PvP gear or rewards back then(not sure about now), but all equipment is found through PvE. There were certain stats you would prefer over others, but essentially everything you wanted for PvE was pretty much what you used in PvP as well.
I would agree with the chess thing. WoW and D3 will be completely different in PvP game play aspects due to how the game itself functions in PvE. WoW players are used to spending several minutes to hours at a time concentrating on taking down one or several targets, so PvP team play is naturally like PvE bossing in that you have to manage your actions and the actions of your target(s). In D3, PvE game play will be spamming, dishing out damage, and avoiding damage. From the internal PvP videos released so far, that looks about right.
The problem with WoW is you HAD to have a different gear set for pve & pvp because you would have 10 people fighting a boss that has like 9 million hit points. You have 100k hp players doing 20k + dps. If you didn't have gear to reduce damage.. arena would be instagib.
This won't be the case for Diablo 3 thank god. The battle mechanics don't rely on 3-4 people spamming heals non stop to survive a boss fight.. which makes me believe the boss creatures in d3 will be close in stats to the players fighting it... only slightly stronger. This will make overall balance so much easier for blizzard because pvp and pve won't be on two completely opposite ends of the spectrum like WoW.
I have a feeling gear will remind us a lot of Diablo 2 gear. Take a look at the gear in Diablo 2.. none of it is specific for PvM or PvP... but you can find stats favorable to both. Damage Reduction, Run Walk Speed, Aura when equipped. etc. If your gear rocks for PvE chances are it will rock for PvP also.
i liked PVP gear in wow, it worked, and well. Could you imagine arena had they not introduced pvp gear? There would be no room for skill it would be just nuke win. Vanilla wow was the peak of pvp tho, was so much fun back then :D.
I think Diablo Arena will be a chess style. Classes will just have survivability built into them and not require a healer spamming as much. Arena would be really dull if it was just wack wack no skill. I really don't think they intended wow arena 2 be much of an E-sport but hey look at it go. I think Diablo might not be as good/big but it will still go that direction.
I also completely agree shadow, D3 is looking good for variety.
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Thanks Caniroth for the awesome sig!
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I was just thinking about what was discussed in the Diablocast this week in regards to crafting PvP gear, and Force mentioned resilience gear. He was then told it wasn't going to happen by one of the others, to which he then suggested he hoped there would at least be some high hp and survivability gear for the arena.
Drawing direct comparisons from Wow's arena, Diablo has no healers. There are no holy pallys, or resto druids that can just heal forever through seamless amounts of insane DPS until after 20mins they run OOM. As such survivability for a Double dps team in diablo (which is everything really) would require far less survivability than their Wow counterpart.
In Wow for example, A frost mage can sustain decent dps on a warrior while virtually shutting him out of the game, and should he be teamed with no healer, hes pretty much a dead boxing bag. Do you really want that to happen to barbarians vsing wizards in Diablo. Sure i don't think that a wizard should get pumped in 2 hits from the barb(altho i know every1 kinda wants it a little bit). It should be a relatively fair fight.
Giving squishes survivability in wow was necessary so that they could deal with Dmg healer teams and still remain competitive. I do acknowledge gear having more resistance in Diablo, which compared to wow, will give a physical class more of an advantage.
Keen to hear everyone's thoughts, especially people who pvp'd or still pvp in wow(in some serious arena).
Thanks Caniroth for the awesome sig!
However, I am all for PvE-based stats that hold higher priority in PvP, such as Health, Defense, Resists, Accuracy, and especially auxiliary stats that affect overall combat such as Movement Speed. As a personal preference, I will most likely PvP with a full on PvE gear with maybe some exceptions as listed above: talisman, gems, jewelry, etc.
My prediction is that Diablo III will not have PvP-specific stats, but may have a few end-game pieces of equipment that is definitely more useful in PvP than in PvE. The only pieces of equipment that I would support being fully PvP-based are talisman, gems, jewelry, and perhaps weapons designed for PvP, such as weapons with bleed, knockback, slow, or other. The gems, talisman, and other micro gear stats would still give hardcore PvP players something to grind for to be "complete" but it shouldn't hold a huge edge against average PvP players that use mostly PvE gear. This also makes weapon choice more situational and maybe interesting tactics combining weapons with skills(not sure how it would work for casters though).
Diablo III PvP should be way more about character set-up than it is about gear. Not saying gear shouldn't be important, but definitely how your character plays will be a much larger factor. Blizzard is putting in so much effort to make character development fun, unique, and more individualistic, I don't see why they wouldn't want this to be the main attraction to both PvE and PvP.
I agree with Helfeather, the skills will make enough of a difference for those that want to PvP 24/7. We don't need gear to separate the groups further. No doubt there will be gear that's better for PvP still. It's just a matter of finding out what works best.
I'm going to be someone who PvE's most of the time, but enters the arena when I get bored or want something different. PvP offers a unique challenge but I don't want it to be something I have to use a cookie cut build for. I want to jump from PvE to PvP and have some chance of winning a match every now and again.
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Evaluating the best pvp stats for your character and seeking for those specific stats on e.g. a rare item was and will be one awesome reason for why diablo is so great. Isn't it?
If you want to arrange it
This world you can change it
If we could somehow make this
Christmas thing last
By helping a neighbor
Or even a stranger
And to know who needs help
You need only just ask
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
You cant really tank in PvP, There is no threat. I think you have raised a valid point in that each class's roll is the same in D3 and that is 2 kill and survive, where as in wow you had healers and dps in arena. I think games will look to last no more than 3 or so mins in D3 but i don't see how it will be huge difference(im thinking similar to a double dps vs Double dps in wow). I don't think you can stop cookie cutters completely, there is always going to be a better way of doing things, however i do hope there is a larger variety in d3 and it does look like it will be the case.
This happened in S1 of WoW arena 2, where warrior pally teams would wear shadow res, as the 2 most common teams were Spriest Lock and War pally, So you either were against a spriest lock and roll em, or against another warrior pally wearing massive Shadow resist and every1 would hit like a girl.
I'm glad most people believe in no PvP gear, now lets pray they listen, and manage to balance well.
Thanks Caniroth for the awesome sig!
Oops, was thinking of instances and PvE when I said that. I didn't PvP in the arena much as I usually got owned.
"Except real money trading has always been present in Diablo 2. Except now it's going to be officially supported which will reduce scams, prevent the funding of the black market so your kids will no longer be exposed to dangerous life ruining drugs like the cancer causing marijuana."
Cookie cutter builds aren't horrible. They provide a starting point for most beginners who don't understand the underlying mechanics in a game. The big problem is when the game is designed around MAKING other builds useless. i.e. When the amazon lost her effective piercing guided arrow (this is me talking about D2 Classic). When the game designers hamper specific skills or stats so severly, it turns cookie cutter builds into the standard with no room for any real creativity.
D3 seems to have a good approach. The amount of variety we are going to see with traits, gems, etc is going to making it highly likely that there is bound to be more than 2-3 different effective builds per class.
I would agree with the chess thing. WoW and D3 will be completely different in PvP game play aspects due to how the game itself functions in PvE. WoW players are used to spending several minutes to hours at a time concentrating on taking down one or several targets, so PvP team play is naturally like PvE bossing in that you have to manage your actions and the actions of your target(s). In D3, PvE game play will be spamming, dishing out damage, and avoiding damage. From the internal PvP videos released so far, that looks about right.
This won't be the case for Diablo 3 thank god. The battle mechanics don't rely on 3-4 people spamming heals non stop to survive a boss fight.. which makes me believe the boss creatures in d3 will be close in stats to the players fighting it... only slightly stronger. This will make overall balance so much easier for blizzard because pvp and pve won't be on two completely opposite ends of the spectrum like WoW.
I have a feeling gear will remind us a lot of Diablo 2 gear. Take a look at the gear in Diablo 2.. none of it is specific for PvM or PvP... but you can find stats favorable to both. Damage Reduction, Run Walk Speed, Aura when equipped. etc. If your gear rocks for PvE chances are it will rock for PvP also.
I think Diablo Arena will be a chess style. Classes will just have survivability built into them and not require a healer spamming as much. Arena would be really dull if it was just wack wack no skill. I really don't think they intended wow arena 2 be much of an E-sport but hey look at it go. I think Diablo might not be as good/big but it will still go that direction.
I also completely agree shadow, D3 is looking good for variety.
Thanks Caniroth for the awesome sig!