considering that they will probably have the 1/1, 5/5, 10/10, 20/20 thing going on, i think they should either have less skill points, or a lot more skills...that would make it better than having all the builds the same.
The reason Diablo 2 has skill trees is because they didn't want every class being fundamentally the same.
Yeah maybe at the realease of the game. But then we had: hammerdins, frozen orb static, ww barb, multizons, IM+revive necs and CE necs.
Those were the majority.. u hardly ever saw anything else. Things changed a bit in LOD when act5 became more friendly to fire and lightning sorcs than act4 was. And also many skills were boosted.
Anyways I think many of the skills that require lower amounth of skill points are some sort of utility skills that almost any build want to take and nowadays if u take 1 point of something it is hardly usefull, you almost always want to max it. So you just skip it since you really wanna focus on the damaging skills for example. Now if it would require less points it would be easier to take it and there u have a nice some sort of utility skill. Maybe barbs charge could be one or the leap?
Then the main skills would still be 20 points? And getting good damage with those would still require a lot of point investments so there would be different builds. But still there would be a lot of utility skills for every class so the playing wouldn't be so simple. You can leap, stun and charge effectively and still have that mega WW to kill tough monsters.
Well pretty hard to even imagine what the spells/skills will be like right now but I'm damn sure blizzard will make it a good one.
Yes i know it puts me in the category of "zomg too much like WoW" but really its just my preference. One thing i loved about D2 was the ability to pump skills up to rediculous amounts. Another fear is that they may do away with + to skills, so we won't see 30/20 or 10/5 type skills...
Anyone else have a similar or opposite opinnion, i'd like to hear it.
-Dart
Well you remember abilities like Teleport, Burst of Speed, Curse of X, Piercing shot?
Theres a lot more but they were all abilities that just required one point and were completely over powered... however you would be mad to max them out... there were some skills that gained 1 bonus (say like lower resist) over 3-5 skill placements near the end.... whats the point?
I think this is by far the best change, so long as they implement it well... The ability you learn from placing 1 points.... needs to be backed up by = gains per point there after for the next 19 points.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"If we're actually making the game worse with no other reason than to be different from WoW, then it's a bad choice." - Jay Wilson (D3 lead designer)
This discussion seems a bit useless to me. I have a bit similar thoughts to Yoshida. Some people here say they want 0/20 and want to be able to invest lots of points to a skill. Well, why 20? Why is 20 perfect? Why not 5, 10, 100, 25, 45, 7? Only because diablo2 had it, doesn't mean it's the perfect number.
I don't even know if I should take this serious. Do you really think Blizzard will make the game so that you can max out all skills? So funny.
More people said that you will be able to max all skills, and chars won't be unique anymore. How can you say this? It got nothing to do with 0/5, 0/10, 0/100.
Because like Yoshida said, we don't know how many skills there are. We don't even know if we still get 1 point for each level, and if we do, then we don't know the level cap. So we don't know how many skill points we get.
I don't really know the reason to be honest to make a different cap for skills. But 90% of the posts I have seen here got nothing to do with it. But I guess they first think about what power they want a maxed skill to have, and then they give a cap according to that. Then 1 point in skill A(0/5) will have the same power as 1 point in skill B(0/10). But skill B will be more powerful then A once you get to 6 points spent. Skill A might become too unbalanced if it would also have a cap of 10.
What we don't want to see is that 1 point in a 0/5 skill is worth the same as 2 points in a 0/10 skill.
EDIT: Like some people pointed out, I also think the 0/5 skills could be some sort of 'utility skills'
While I try not to assume too much about what is under-development, these comments irk me.
You seem to think Blizzard could do no wrong, which is a lot of assuming on your end, as well. I think Blizzard could totally bomb D3 if left to their own devices. This is because no one at Blizzard Entertainment was remotely involved with the design of Diablo or Diablo II. This is the same team that made WoW, which is basically a bastardization and dumbing down of MMOs. WoW, while successful, has taken the MMO industry backwards another 4 years with it's heavy focus on raiding and required hours to get anything from the game.
So, yes, I am totally worried of what Blizzard could do to Diablo 3. However, from the video, the gameplay looks and feels like Diablo. I will not comment on the art direction, but everything else looks alright.
Still, input from the players will help D3 be the perfect game, not "trusting Blizzard". They do want our input.
Think about why they might be less, they might be % based skills which give a large amount of say critical strike % and if the skill could have a max of 20, you might be getting 3-4% crit per level rather than 15% each level. When skills have such tiny increments it's hard to justify putting a lot of extra points into it because 'usually' the first level doesn't start at say 3-4% it usually starts at 20% or whatever for a variety of skills then progresses by 5%.. Without big gains from level to level people just throw one point in it and move on.. Oh it's 5 points max instead of 20, it's actually worth maxing because I'm getting a decent upgrade every point rather than it sucking 15 extra levels points before getting a marginal upgrade.
It's been a long time since I played d2 but back then it was mostly stack 20 into a few skill then throw around as many 1's as you could into appropriate skills to make good use of +skill items. Who knows if +skill items are coming back and who knows how big the tree will be, but you can be sure that you won't be able to max everything good. They'll probably do a lot more pre-reqs than what d2 had, just 1 point in skills to get to the next one, mainly to stop you throwing 5 points into something to get down 5 tiers in the tree. The tree's will undoubtedly be huge, well huge compared to d2 as they were pretty tiny on the scope of games that use a similar skill tree system.
Quote from "timmen" »
That was a nice comment and mature written at least. But I don't see any arguments against mine. I don't think Blizzard could go really wrong, and you do, that's just a difference in opinion. But I still don't see how people think that we will be able to max out all skills in diablo 3.
It theoretically got 'nothing' to do with the cap on a skill. Nothing in the gameplay video implies we will be able to max all skills.
This thread is another one like many I have seen. It is not input to make the game better, like you seem to think. It is more a type of whine.
If we cannot know something, then we should make the thread like 'I don't want to be able to max out all skills in diablo3', but here it's like 'I am annoyed because we will be able to max out all skills'. Do you see the difference? That was just an example.
I have seen good threads too on this forum to give input for Blizzard. 'What do we want to see in Diablo3'. Threads like these are 'neutral' and give constructive input. The many threads that start already with a negative tone are ridiculous.
Pretty much agree entirely with you here as well, too many people are on the d3 hating bandwagon solely for that reason. Some do have valid points, but a lot are just badly structured hate posts.
sorry late and i didnt read the whole thread, got to page 4 and i skipped to the end, sooo if im repeating what some one else has already said, I am sorry.
Im guessing that they are doing this to skills so that we have more maxed skills, we have a skill bar at the bottom that fits 8 skills, (why would you use an inefective skill that only has 1 point in it).
in D2, you really only used 3-6 skills. depending on char/build.
in D3 it looks like they want every character to have a broader horizon, and use 8+ skills. which IMO is a real cool idea.
:offtopic:sorry if im not all that clear with what im saying, im tired. Gnight.
I can assume there will be 98 skill points minimum, if not this game is heading down a path I'm not sure it would recover from. They may skip the skill point quests, but honestly the quests in Diablo 2 were worth doing because of the permanent rewards to you and not a piece of gear you would replace in 2 levels anyways. So I really hope they keep that system.
In order to keep the system of character customization in builds that D2 had, they would need to add a ton of skills per tree (if they use trees, which I assume they would) in order to keep people from maxing every skill in every tree.
I keep trying to point this out. Nobody seems willing to think about it.
Assume the following things about skills in Diablo III:
each class has 3 trees
each tree has 10 skills
each tree has one skill that is 1 rank max
each tree has two skills that are 5 ranks max
each tree has three skills that are 10 ranks max
each tree has 4 skills that are 20 ranks max
characters get 100 skill points minimum
Now some math:
3 skills * 1 max rank each = 3
6 skills * 5 max ranks each = 30
9 skills * 10 max ranks each = 90
12 skills * 20 max ranks each = 240
3 + 30 + 90 + 240 = 363 possible skills choices
I still see a lot of room for customization here. And I certainly do NOT see a chance for every Barbarian to have the 6 best skills and their synergies (assuming they are in the game) maximized.
Either way you have to make choices on what you want to put points into. With this system it just means that using a few points might go a lot longer way.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The certain prospect of death could sweeten every life with a precious and fragrant drop of levity, and now you
strange apothecary souls have turned it into an ill-tasting drop of poison that makes the whole of life repulsive." -Nietzsche
Depends how it plays out in-game really.
Judging prematurely is of no benefit to anyone.
We'll have to wait and see until we have more info and/or gameplay videos.
For all we know those skills may be changing everyday.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Diablo 3 is graphically and artistically great, there needs to be variety in the game, instead of only plain and dark areas!
+Wouldn't it be better and more interesting if from a sunny beautiful day, mist starts covering the screen, rain starts falling, thunders and lightning striking and it starts to darken, instead of constant dark!?
I keep trying to point this out. Nobody seems willing to think about it.
Assume the following things about skills in Diablo III:
each class has 3 trees
each tree has 10 skills
each tree has one skill that is 1 rank max
each tree has two skills that are 5 ranks max
each tree has three skills that are 10 ranks max
each tree has 4 skills that are 20 ranks max
characters get 100 skill points minimum
Now some math:
3 skills * 1 max rank each = 3
6 skills * 5 max ranks each = 30
9 skills * 10 max ranks each = 90
12 skills * 20 max ranks each = 240
3 + 30 + 90 + 240 = 363 possible skills choices
I still see a lot of room for customization here. And I certainly do NOT see a chance for every Barbarian to have the 6 best skills and their synergies (assuming they are in the game) maximized.
Yeah exactly. Also, if it does indeed work like the WoW talent trees then you'll be forced to spend points in the lower tier (probably utility oriented) 1/5/10 rank skills to get to the upper 0/20 main skills, so you'll still have to specialize in one tree and maybe be able to get a secondary one, but there is no way in hell that Blizzard will let you get all the good skills from every tree.
Personally I hated having to waste 60 skillpoints in some useless synergies to be able to get max damage in my main one, and only be able to get 1-2 main skills that I had to spam through the rest of the game. This new system will add a lot more flavor to playing each class. For example, with the new barbarian you could use whirlwind while in close range, seismic slam for long range and leap when the mobs are in a hard to reach place, and still do a decent amount of damage with each of them. Not only will this smarten up the PvE gameplay, it will also make PvP way more fun since you'll have to rely more on skill rather than build choice.
Where is the source that everyone is getting this talent tree information from? How do we know that certain talents will be less than 20 points and not like D2. I haven't seen a source regarding this, so if anyone could link me to it I would greatly appreciate it.
What do you guys think about requiring maybe 5/20 of lightning 1 to get the option of lightning 2. Something to almost allow spending of skills early on to make your lower toon more powerful without gimping your final char.
It would be an alternative to synergies.
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"The gaming public now has focus on Diablo again, and with it comes the modern-age of trolling and jackassery."
Where is the source that everyone is getting this talent tree information from? How do we know that certain talents will be less than 20 points and not like D2. I haven't seen a source regarding this, so if anyone could link me to it I would greatly appreciate it.
If anyone happens to have a SS of this info would they care to share it?
I am converting the video from FLV to AVI now so that I can import it to Movie Maker and take screens of the frames. It'll be 10 minutes or so before I have the pics uploaded.
Ok, I'm going to chime in and possibly sound like an asshole(fair warning).
Me, personally, would have liked to see NO skill caps at all. Where you can just level up you skill points to your heart's content. If you wanted to put 100 points in teeth, you could. That way there is no set number to tell you to stop, you have to decide for yourself. I feel like this would lead to the largest variety in builds.
That being said, that would make balancing skills impossibly hard. On top of that, I don't feel like the the 20 point skill limits are remotely close to being an iconic part of the game, I barely think skill trees themselves qualify seeing as how they weren't even in the first game.
So, I close by saying, I trust that blizzard will do what will produce the most balanced gameplay, seeing as how it is one of their strong suites.
That being said, that would make balancing skills impossibly hard. On top of that, I don't feel like the the 20 point skill limits are remotely close to being an iconic part of the game, I barely think skill trees themselves qualify seeing as how they weren't even in the first game.
Yeah I agree but I still want all the skills to have the maximum level but have all the skills viable, I think 5/5 would only be appropriate for passive skills, but that might not work either because than they become a no-brainer and you don't have to choose between either maxing that passive skill or getting a synergy for your main attack.
balancing is a never ending battle I'm afraid, and it's always brutal, with many casualties.
Yeah maybe at the realease of the game. But then we had: hammerdins, frozen orb static, ww barb, multizons, IM+revive necs and CE necs.
Those were the majority.. u hardly ever saw anything else. Things changed a bit in LOD when act5 became more friendly to fire and lightning sorcs than act4 was. And also many skills were boosted.
Anyways I think many of the skills that require lower amounth of skill points are some sort of utility skills that almost any build want to take and nowadays if u take 1 point of something it is hardly usefull, you almost always want to max it. So you just skip it since you really wanna focus on the damaging skills for example. Now if it would require less points it would be easier to take it and there u have a nice some sort of utility skill. Maybe barbs charge could be one or the leap?
Then the main skills would still be 20 points? And getting good damage with those would still require a lot of point investments so there would be different builds. But still there would be a lot of utility skills for every class so the playing wouldn't be so simple. You can leap, stun and charge effectively and still have that mega WW to kill tough monsters.
Well pretty hard to even imagine what the spells/skills will be like right now but I'm damn sure blizzard will make it a good one.
RIP: Demon Hunter: lvl 50 | Barb: lvl 60 (plvl 5) | Monk: lvl12 & lvl70 (plvl 200)
Well you remember abilities like Teleport, Burst of Speed, Curse of X, Piercing shot?
Theres a lot more but they were all abilities that just required one point and were completely over powered... however you would be mad to max them out... there were some skills that gained 1 bonus (say like lower resist) over 3-5 skill placements near the end.... whats the point?
I think this is by far the best change, so long as they implement it well... The ability you learn from placing 1 points.... needs to be backed up by = gains per point there after for the next 19 points.
While I try not to assume too much about what is under-development, these comments irk me.
You seem to think Blizzard could do no wrong, which is a lot of assuming on your end, as well. I think Blizzard could totally bomb D3 if left to their own devices. This is because no one at Blizzard Entertainment was remotely involved with the design of Diablo or Diablo II. This is the same team that made WoW, which is basically a bastardization and dumbing down of MMOs. WoW, while successful, has taken the MMO industry backwards another 4 years with it's heavy focus on raiding and required hours to get anything from the game.
So, yes, I am totally worried of what Blizzard could do to Diablo 3. However, from the video, the gameplay looks and feels like Diablo. I will not comment on the art direction, but everything else looks alright.
Still, input from the players will help D3 be the perfect game, not "trusting Blizzard". They do want our input.
Words I hate in Gaming Culture:
Epic
Hardcore
E-Sports
It's been a long time since I played d2 but back then it was mostly stack 20 into a few skill then throw around as many 1's as you could into appropriate skills to make good use of +skill items. Who knows if +skill items are coming back and who knows how big the tree will be, but you can be sure that you won't be able to max everything good. They'll probably do a lot more pre-reqs than what d2 had, just 1 point in skills to get to the next one, mainly to stop you throwing 5 points into something to get down 5 tiers in the tree. The tree's will undoubtedly be huge, well huge compared to d2 as they were pretty tiny on the scope of games that use a similar skill tree system.
Pretty much agree entirely with you here as well, too many people are on the d3 hating bandwagon solely for that reason. Some do have valid points, but a lot are just badly structured hate posts.
Im guessing that they are doing this to skills so that we have more maxed skills, we have a skill bar at the bottom that fits 8 skills, (why would you use an inefective skill that only has 1 point in it).
in D2, you really only used 3-6 skills. depending on char/build.
in D3 it looks like they want every character to have a broader horizon, and use 8+ skills. which IMO is a real cool idea.
:offtopic:sorry if im not all that clear with what im saying, im tired. Gnight.
Assume the following things about skills in Diablo III:
strange apothecary souls have turned it into an ill-tasting drop of poison that makes the whole of life repulsive." -Nietzsche
For example
Energy Bolt - 20
Heal - 30
Max Mp - 10
I guess D2 can make the cap a multiplier of 5 like 5/15/20, WHICH IS TOTALLY COOL =D. I'm sure a lot of other rpgs had this skill system.
Ok ppl. Now dont say things like "Maplestory is for noobs"... LOL
Judging prematurely is of no benefit to anyone.
We'll have to wait and see until we have more info and/or gameplay videos.
For all we know those skills may be changing everyday.
Diablo 3 is graphically and artistically great, there needs to be variety in the game, instead of only plain and dark areas!
+Wouldn't it be better and more interesting if from a sunny beautiful day, mist starts covering the screen, rain starts falling, thunders and lightning striking and it starts to darken, instead of constant dark!?
Yeah exactly. Also, if it does indeed work like the WoW talent trees then you'll be forced to spend points in the lower tier (probably utility oriented) 1/5/10 rank skills to get to the upper 0/20 main skills, so you'll still have to specialize in one tree and maybe be able to get a secondary one, but there is no way in hell that Blizzard will let you get all the good skills from every tree.
Personally I hated having to waste 60 skillpoints in some useless synergies to be able to get max damage in my main one, and only be able to get 1-2 main skills that I had to spam through the rest of the game. This new system will add a lot more flavor to playing each class. For example, with the new barbarian you could use whirlwind while in close range, seismic slam for long range and leap when the mobs are in a hard to reach place, and still do a decent amount of damage with each of them. Not only will this smarten up the PvE gameplay, it will also make PvP way more fun since you'll have to rely more on skill rather than build choice.
It would be an alternative to synergies.
Bashiok - Blizzard Poster
If anyone happens to have a SS of this info would they care to share it?
Me, personally, would have liked to see NO skill caps at all. Where you can just level up you skill points to your heart's content. If you wanted to put 100 points in teeth, you could. That way there is no set number to tell you to stop, you have to decide for yourself. I feel like this would lead to the largest variety in builds.
That being said, that would make balancing skills impossibly hard. On top of that, I don't feel like the the 20 point skill limits are remotely close to being an iconic part of the game, I barely think skill trees themselves qualify seeing as how they weren't even in the first game.
So, I close by saying, I trust that blizzard will do what will produce the most balanced gameplay, seeing as how it is one of their strong suites.
Yeah I agree but I still want all the skills to have the maximum level but have all the skills viable, I think 5/5 would only be appropriate for passive skills, but that might not work either because than they become a no-brainer and you don't have to choose between either maxing that passive skill or getting a synergy for your main attack.