So many post regarding paragon keeps popping up on various forums across different site, all saying the same thing. Paragon power creep is to strong.
Wait...
Let me re-phrase that. Botters power creep is to strong. Yes. This is the main advocate I see in all the threads. About fair leader boards or paragon being to strong.
A fair leader board is the one who gets the highest legitly, regardless of paragon level or skill. That's the way the leader board is designed, and in my opinion the way it should be.
So why is this topic so hot? It brings botters into the spotlight, and hey! I hate botters, i need my pitfork and get this paragon level out of the way so botting becomes useless!
Now, from my understanding, the way the game is designed;
- You level to 70
- Grind
- ????
- Profit (gears and some paragons)
- Grind
- Grind
- PARAGON5!!!
But what happens when you gear plateau, and what the majority of the forums threads regarding paragon are about is removing paragon, what do?
How do you become stronger when there is no way to get stronger. Food for thought.
So... Botting. Why does it affect you? It... actually doesn't. It only affects very few players so there is no reason for blizzard to remove paragons.
The ones who who compete at the top of the leader boards are probably fairly skilled players with a greater understanding of the game. So lets take 2 players.
Player Bot - Bots paragon 1000, probably has near BiS
Player Legit - Grinds paragon 800, probably has near BiS
Who do you think of these 2 players will be higher on the leader board? The one who actually played the game, understands the game should be higher.
Now to go even deeper. A huge thread on the diablofans I read, a leader board player and pretty popular guy since he streams probably and since he knows his stuff. makes videos and theorycrafts and stuff was gaining lot of following on this issue. So what's his problem? Is he worried a casual player botting is going to take his top leader board score because he is botting?
Wait... What? That's what all the paragon hate is for? A noob botting his way to number 1?
And that right there is the REAL problem with the paragon hate train.
Top contenders botting to beat other top contenders. When all that does matter is the power creep designed by the paragon system.
So you want to REMOVE/REVAMP an entire system for... (a safe number) 100 playersout of the 10 000+ who play D3.
Please.
TLDR;
The hate train for paragons is due to popular top leader board players expressing their hate for the power creep saying paragon > skill. This is simply untrue. Skilled players who are top contenders for the leader boards botting are the real problem.
- Player Noob bot(1000 paragons) CANNOT beat Player Skilled Legit(800 paragon)
Revamping an entire system for less than 100 people(realisticly) is far from ideal and a different approach should be taken.
Perhaps more content can be added. like a G-rift style dungeon that removes paragon levels can be implemented but offers little reward?
Hypothetical leaderboard -- Grift 49 is "last place and a dude has 400 paragon is in that spot"
I am a pretty crappy player, I am paragon level 650 on seasons and I can do grift 50 because of paragons allow me to, am I not entitled to hold that "last place" even though the other guy is more skilled then me?
I am a pretty crappy player, I am paragon level 650 on seasons and I can do grift 50 because of paragons allow me to, am I not entitled to hold that "last place" even though the other guy is more skilled then me?
Uhhhhhh... what? Are you saying that because your paragon 650, you got the last spot because of your paragon level? Do you miss the point of leaderboards?
In answer to your question, no, you are entitled to nothing. If the other guy is more skilled than you, he will do better than you, regardless of paragon level. To sum it all up, just no, to everything.
You do realize this is an ARPG. Your entire argument about skill is completely contrary to the format of roleplaying games. You grind and grind and grind to get more power, skill has little to do with anything in RPG's. The game doesn't take much skill at all, it takes a little knowledge which you can learn quickly, and lots of time grinding gear and paragon. Bots are pretty good at grinding and can play 24/7 so they are on the leader boards. If you want bots banned then that makes sense but arguing for a leader board that displays skill means that you don't want the game to be an RPG.
The bigger issue is that botting generated tons of GR keys which were then used to run tons of speed GR's which gave inflated XP to support leechers who now have 50% more main stat than a typical well geared player. That's 50% more dps that no amount of skill can make up for. Whether a particular top player bots or not is almost irrelevant because they get speed GR keys from people who do, and pretty much everyone who plays multiplayer has benefited from all the "free keys" for speed GR's that botters farm up.
Nonseason will be totally screwed unless Blizzard does something to reduce the effect of paragons over 1k, especially since XP will be harder to get with the changes they've made on PTR. Super high paragon players will stay there while everyone else will have a harder time catching up. It will be a positive affect on S4 though because XP gain will be even among the party and you'll be doing a lot more T10 rifting (additive XP still) to get ~1.3 GR keys per run that can't be recycled.
Okay, I'm gonna put this plain and simple. Yes, it's a power creep, yes botting sucks, but the increase is nowhere near as bad as everyone makes it out to be.
In comparable gear to Gaby, with any indiscretions aside, he's over 1400 now in S3? I'm not quite 800 yet, but comparing our characters, he's only got a sheet dps increase of 300k on me... 300k... the equivalent of an emerald in a weapon. That's almost double my plvl... for a gem, yes it's a decent boost, but still.
I have to agree with the casual players bit though, how long through S2 were the top tiers complaining about jailer? Now that the casuals have reached 40-50+ jailer's getting a 50% damage nerf? Yup. Caters to casuals, so what are we all worried about?
Top paragon level players are not botters. If you play legit in a group of 4 and farm speed GR you will get 5 times more xp than what the best bots can do. Whole arguement is pointless.
People express their dissatisfaction with the system because it's flawed. It forces people to farm the same content 24/7... If there was a balance between the different types of content in the game in terms of xp gained, then people would be able to farm different types of content without feeling forced to farm just this ONE THING. That's the main problem that many people seem to be missing. Botting has nothing to do with this.
Also, if someone bots and gets really high plvl, he will get banned. In EU for an example, there aren't more than a few thousands of people who are close to or are above plvl 1k... Botters can be spotted quite easily if they go overboard (and sometimes even if they don't).
Oh and you are wrong... paragon > skill is actually true. Please tell me more about how you can skillfully beat a plvl 2k player when you are plvl 800... yeah good luck. And you might not know, but it's not mainly about solo... In a group where the average plvl is 1.5k, this group can beat the shit out of trials or GR levels that a plvl 800 group will never be able to - or only be able to with extreme fishing and luck.
There's nothing wrong with a system that rewards players for playing the game more... The problem is that this specific system completely overshadows any other sort of character progression i nthe game and it has become the only way to actually play while being effecient once you have the gear.
Top paragon level players are not botters. If you play legit in a group of 4 and farm speed GR you will get 5 times more xp than what the best bots can do. Whole arguement is pointless.
People express their dissatisfaction with the system because it's flawed. It forces people to farm the same content 24/7... If there was a balance between the different types of content in the game in terms of xp gained, then people would be able to farm different types of content without feeling forced to farm just this ONE THING. That's the main problem that many people seem to be missing. Botting has nothing to do with this.
Also, if someone bots and gets really high plvl, he will get banned. In EU for an example, there aren't more than a few thousands of people who are close to or are above plvl 1k... Botters can be spotted quite easily if they go overboard (and sometimes even if they don't).
Oh and you are wrong... paragon > skill is actually true. Please tell me more about how you can skillfully beat a plvl 2k player when you are plvl 800... yeah good luck. And you might not know, but it's not mainly about solo... In a group where the average plvl is 1.5k, this group can beat the shit out of trials or GR levels that a plvl 800 group will never be able to - or only be able to with extreme fishing and luck.
There's nothing wrong with a system that rewards players for playing the game more... The problem is that this specific system completely overshadows any other sort of character progression i nthe game and it has become the only way to actually play while being effecient once you have the gear.
Thank you for your input, and saying the same thing... Literally watching people poste the same crap is tiring. You're talking about 400 paragon differences. Of course it's huge. Reduce your scope by at least 250 and then you might get on the same page as the rest. Should a p200 be as powerful as a p600? No, but skill can close that gap...
The he only thing that requires attention is gem levels. And the gem leveling process.
You do realize this is an ARPG. Your entire argument about skill is completely contrary to the format of roleplaying games. You grind and grind and grind to get more power, skill has little to do with anything in RPG's. The game doesn't take much skill at all, it takes a little knowledge which you can learn quickly, and lots of time grinding gear and paragon. Bots are pretty good at grinding and can play 24/7 so they are on the leader boards. If you want bots banned then that makes sense but arguing for a leader board that displays skill means that you don't want the game to be an RPG.
The bigger issue is that botting generated tons of GR keys which were then used to run tons of speed GR's which gave inflated XP to support leechers who now have 50% more main stat than a typical well geared player. That's 50% more dps that no amount of skill can make up for. Whether a particular top player bots or not is almost irrelevant because they get speed GR keys from people who do, and pretty much everyone who plays multiplayer has benefited from all the "free keys" for speed GR's that botters farm up.
Nonseason will be totally screwed unless Blizzard does something to reduce the effect of paragons over 1k, especially since XP will be harder to get with the changes they've made on PTR. Super high paragon players will stay there while everyone else will have a harder time catching up. It will be a positive affect on S4 though because XP gain will be even among the party and you'll be doing a lot more T10 rifting (additive XP still) to get ~1.3 GR keys per run that can't be recycled.
aRPGs
Many RPG have significant amounts of skill involved for player performance. Especially the tabletop posterchildren of the genre. aRPGs are very much a subgenre which requires no skill. In contrast to the relatively high degree of player skill (often in the form of decision making) required in games from other subgenres.
Many RPG have significant amounts of skill involved for player performance. Especially the tabletop posterchildren of the genre. aRPGs are very much a subgenre which requires no skill. In contrast to the relatively high degree of player skill (often in the form of decision making) required in games from other subgenres.
You're going way off topic but I was referring to the video game genre because this is a video game... Pretty much every RPG video game involves tons of grinding to gain power and any "decision making" takes 2 seconds to google the answer. Table top is totally unrelated.
Many RPG have significant amounts of skill involved for player performance. Especially the tabletop posterchildren of the genre. aRPGs are very much a subgenre which requires no skill. In contrast to the relatively high degree of player skill (often in the form of decision making) required in games from other subgenres.
You're going way off topic but I was referring to the video game genre because this is a video game... Pretty much every RPG video game involves tons of grinding to gain power and any "decision making" takes 2 seconds to google the answer. Table top is totally unrelated.
I can think of a number of non-tabletop RPGs where a major component of success is strategy. You have the option of grinding to outlevel content in most RPGs but in other games of the genre player skill ends up important.
See almost all tactical RPGs. And a decent chunk of endgame in certain jRPGs (where strategy is the only thing winning your fights against OHKO enemies).
Many of the top players have been spending this entire season on one leeching character simply speedclearing greater rifts. Now, end of season, they relog to characters they've gotten geared by other players in their speedfarming groups; characters which they have no more than a few hours played on, and are grabbing top leaderboard spots from people who have played the respective classes for hundreds upon hundreds of hours.
The power advantage a top paragon player has over an average paragon player is like the top paragon player being full max-rolled ancient while the average paragon is still wearing badly rolled non-ancient pieces. It's absolutely huge and no factor of skill is going to outweigh it.
Just cap Paragon levels and put the emphasis back onto gear. It's that simple. End game shouldn't be about how many hours I can sink into mindless grinding or how efficient my bot program is.
Make RNG and player skill the deciding factor of characters strength.
One easy fix, no use of paragon points in Grifts, or put the players with the same plvl on that said leader board, so in other words don't put 1k plvl on same leader board as plvl 800 or even 400 plvl, and the removal of plvl would break the game all together imo,
Hello everyone!
Sorry my English (writing)!
First item: I like the unlimited Paragon system (not depending on both items and I can enjoy it for a long time ...). PS: I can not play many hours in the day!
_ I believe no limit on Paragon become the best game in many ways ... Being able to evolve "always" allows you do not get "stuck" in the drop system, this depends on luck and time to play ...
_ The system also allows you to reach new convey the Grift (with restrictions that are changed every Season), makes the game more fluid and does not limit the player (evolves anyone who knows, ...);
If we evaluate the game without unlimited Paragon:
* The drop would have to be changed. Who played the game in the "past" with low drop rate know how complicated it is to get some items. In this case will continue similar to the current system, who else can play better items (current - more Paragon). Example: player that has played an entire season and failed to drop one SMK Ancestral, or Ancestral Furnace, or Aether Walker Ancestral ... Imagine if changing the drop rate ... Maybe after a year playing will get the item, ...
* Always, always going to have players who play hours in the day. It is certain that they will have better items and achieved better positions in rank. In this case and want to play some good items. only if very lucky !;
* Between 30% and 40% of players of any game not know "exp to farm" is normal. It has games that if you buy a "package", you will evolve faster, then those who have money and time will achieve these goals faster ... (We do not spend "nothing" - only with the expansion.);
* Whether "end" with a game, limiting it. You will only play who has perfect items and even for a time, or a new player who started playing not long ago, or because friends ... What many companies do is create new servers in these cases ...
* Game that player has reached the maximum level, achieved the best items, will do what next? Getting cosmetics? The answer is easy!
Etc ...
_ I have some opinions if the game had to change some things, but for now is great! Waiting for patch 2.3 and a new expansion!
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Made a thread on D3 forums http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/18300096222?page=1#0. Will report here.
It's gonna be long. TLDR on bottom
So many post regarding paragon keeps popping up on various forums across different site, all saying the same thing. Paragon power creep is to strong.
Wait...
Let me re-phrase that. Botters power creep is to strong. Yes. This is the main advocate I see in all the threads. About fair leader boards or paragon being to strong.
A fair leader board is the one who gets the highest legitly, regardless of paragon level or skill. That's the way the leader board is designed, and in my opinion the way it should be.
So why is this topic so hot? It brings botters into the spotlight, and hey! I hate botters, i need my pitfork and get this paragon level out of the way so botting becomes useless!
Now, from my understanding, the way the game is designed;
- You level to 70
- Grind
- ????
- Profit (gears and some paragons)
- Grind
- Grind
- PARAGON5!!!
But what happens when you gear plateau, and what the majority of the forums threads regarding paragon are about is removing paragon, what do?
How do you become stronger when there is no way to get stronger. Food for thought.
So... Botting. Why does it affect you? It... actually doesn't. It only affects very few players so there is no reason for blizzard to remove paragons.
The ones who who compete at the top of the leader boards are probably fairly skilled players with a greater understanding of the game. So lets take 2 players.
Player Bot - Bots paragon 1000, probably has near BiS
Player Legit - Grinds paragon 800, probably has near BiS
Who do you think of these 2 players will be higher on the leader board? The one who actually played the game, understands the game should be higher.
Now to go even deeper. A huge thread on the diablofans I read, a leader board player and pretty popular guy since he streams probably and since he knows his stuff. makes videos and theorycrafts and stuff was gaining lot of following on this issue. So what's his problem? Is he worried a casual player botting is going to take his top leader board score because he is botting?
Wait... What? That's what all the paragon hate is for? A noob botting his way to number 1?
And that right there is the REAL problem with the paragon hate train.
Top contenders botting to beat other top contenders. When all that does matter is the power creep designed by the paragon system.
So you want to REMOVE/REVAMP an entire system for... (a safe number) 100 playersout of the 10 000+ who play D3.
Please.
TLDR;
The hate train for paragons is due to popular top leader board players expressing their hate for the power creep saying paragon > skill. This is simply untrue. Skilled players who are top contenders for the leader boards botting are the real problem.
- Player Noob bot(1000 paragons) CANNOT beat Player Skilled Legit(800 paragon)
Revamping an entire system for less than 100 people(realisticly) is far from ideal and a different approach should be taken.
Perhaps more content can be added. like a G-rift style dungeon that removes paragon levels can be implemented but offers little reward?
Agreed.
Stopped reading. I hope you mean with skill?
Nope.
Hypothetical leaderboard -- Grift 49 is "last place and a dude has 400 paragon is in that spot"
I am a pretty crappy player, I am paragon level 650 on seasons and I can do grift 50 because of paragons allow me to, am I not entitled to hold that "last place" even though the other guy is more skilled then me?
More options can also be added for after p800 so main stat boosting isnt the only option.
Offensive can add:
% to Type damage
Defensive:
%life regen while standing in fire, poison, etc
Utiliy:
increased chance at mats dropping
+goblin spawn chance
Uhhhhhh... what? Are you saying that because your paragon 650, you got the last spot because of your paragon level? Do you miss the point of leaderboards?
In answer to your question, no, you are entitled to nothing. If the other guy is more skilled than you, he will do better than you, regardless of paragon level. To sum it all up, just no, to everything.
You do realize this is an ARPG. Your entire argument about skill is completely contrary to the format of roleplaying games. You grind and grind and grind to get more power, skill has little to do with anything in RPG's. The game doesn't take much skill at all, it takes a little knowledge which you can learn quickly, and lots of time grinding gear and paragon. Bots are pretty good at grinding and can play 24/7 so they are on the leader boards. If you want bots banned then that makes sense but arguing for a leader board that displays skill means that you don't want the game to be an RPG.
The bigger issue is that botting generated tons of GR keys which were then used to run tons of speed GR's which gave inflated XP to support leechers who now have 50% more main stat than a typical well geared player. That's 50% more dps that no amount of skill can make up for. Whether a particular top player bots or not is almost irrelevant because they get speed GR keys from people who do, and pretty much everyone who plays multiplayer has benefited from all the "free keys" for speed GR's that botters farm up.
Nonseason will be totally screwed unless Blizzard does something to reduce the effect of paragons over 1k, especially since XP will be harder to get with the changes they've made on PTR. Super high paragon players will stay there while everyone else will have a harder time catching up. It will be a positive affect on S4 though because XP gain will be even among the party and you'll be doing a lot more T10 rifting (additive XP still) to get ~1.3 GR keys per run that can't be recycled.
Okay, I'm gonna put this plain and simple. Yes, it's a power creep, yes botting sucks, but the increase is nowhere near as bad as everyone makes it out to be.
In comparable gear to Gaby, with any indiscretions aside, he's over 1400 now in S3? I'm not quite 800 yet, but comparing our characters, he's only got a sheet dps increase of 300k on me... 300k... the equivalent of an emerald in a weapon. That's almost double my plvl... for a gem, yes it's a decent boost, but still.
I have to agree with the casual players bit though, how long through S2 were the top tiers complaining about jailer? Now that the casuals have reached 40-50+ jailer's getting a 50% damage nerf? Yup. Caters to casuals, so what are we all worried about?
Top paragon level players are not botters. If you play legit in a group of 4 and farm speed GR you will get 5 times more xp than what the best bots can do. Whole arguement is pointless.
People express their dissatisfaction with the system because it's flawed. It forces people to farm the same content 24/7... If there was a balance between the different types of content in the game in terms of xp gained, then people would be able to farm different types of content without feeling forced to farm just this ONE THING. That's the main problem that many people seem to be missing. Botting has nothing to do with this.
Also, if someone bots and gets really high plvl, he will get banned. In EU for an example, there aren't more than a few thousands of people who are close to or are above plvl 1k... Botters can be spotted quite easily if they go overboard (and sometimes even if they don't).
Oh and you are wrong... paragon > skill is actually true. Please tell me more about how you can skillfully beat a plvl 2k player when you are plvl 800... yeah good luck. And you might not know, but it's not mainly about solo... In a group where the average plvl is 1.5k, this group can beat the shit out of trials or GR levels that a plvl 800 group will never be able to - or only be able to with extreme fishing and luck.
There's nothing wrong with a system that rewards players for playing the game more... The problem is that this specific system completely overshadows any other sort of character progression i nthe game and it has become the only way to actually play while being effecient once you have the gear.
Thank you for your input, and saying the same thing... Literally watching people poste the same crap is tiring. You're talking about 400 paragon differences. Of course it's huge. Reduce your scope by at least 250 and then you might get on the same page as the rest. Should a p200 be as powerful as a p600? No, but skill can close that gap...
The he only thing that requires attention is gem levels. And the gem leveling process.
They should just cap paragon at like 800 in seasons. No reason to give people even more reason to bot.
aRPGs
Many RPG have significant amounts of skill involved for player performance. Especially the tabletop posterchildren of the genre. aRPGs are very much a subgenre which requires no skill. In contrast to the relatively high degree of player skill (often in the form of decision making) required in games from other subgenres.
You're going way off topic but I was referring to the video game genre because this is a video game... Pretty much every RPG video game involves tons of grinding to gain power and any "decision making" takes 2 seconds to google the answer. Table top is totally unrelated.
I can think of a number of non-tabletop RPGs where a major component of success is strategy. You have the option of grinding to outlevel content in most RPGs but in other games of the genre player skill ends up important.
See almost all tactical RPGs. And a decent chunk of endgame in certain jRPGs (where strategy is the only thing winning your fights against OHKO enemies).
"RPG" is a giant genre even in video games.
Many of the top players have been spending this entire season on one leeching character simply speedclearing greater rifts. Now, end of season, they relog to characters they've gotten geared by other players in their speedfarming groups; characters which they have no more than a few hours played on, and are grabbing top leaderboard spots from people who have played the respective classes for hundreds upon hundreds of hours.
The power advantage a top paragon player has over an average paragon player is like the top paragon player being full max-rolled ancient while the average paragon is still wearing badly rolled non-ancient pieces. It's absolutely huge and no factor of skill is going to outweigh it.
Just cap Paragon levels and put the emphasis back onto gear. It's that simple. End game shouldn't be about how many hours I can sink into mindless grinding or how efficient my bot program is.
Make RNG and player skill the deciding factor of characters strength.
One easy fix, no use of paragon points in Grifts, or put the players with the same plvl on that said leader board, so in other words don't put 1k plvl on same leader board as plvl 800 or even 400 plvl, and the removal of plvl would break the game all together imo,
Hello everyone!
Sorry my English (writing)!
First item: I like the unlimited Paragon system (not depending on both items and I can enjoy it for a long time ...). PS: I can not play many hours in the day!
_ I believe no limit on Paragon become the best game in many ways ... Being able to evolve "always" allows you do not get "stuck" in the drop system, this depends on luck and time to play ...
_ The system also allows you to reach new convey the Grift (with restrictions that are changed every Season), makes the game more fluid and does not limit the player (evolves anyone who knows, ...);
If we evaluate the game without unlimited Paragon:
* The drop would have to be changed. Who played the game in the "past" with low drop rate know how complicated it is to get some items. In this case will continue similar to the current system, who else can play better items (current - more Paragon). Example: player that has played an entire season and failed to drop one SMK Ancestral, or Ancestral Furnace, or Aether Walker Ancestral ... Imagine if changing the drop rate ... Maybe after a year playing will get the item, ...
* Always, always going to have players who play hours in the day. It is certain that they will have better items and achieved better positions in rank. In this case and want to play some good items. only if very lucky !;
* Between 30% and 40% of players of any game not know "exp to farm" is normal. It has games that if you buy a "package", you will evolve faster, then those who have money and time will achieve these goals faster ... (We do not spend "nothing" - only with the expansion.);
* Whether "end" with a game, limiting it. You will only play who has perfect items and even for a time, or a new player who started playing not long ago, or because friends ... What many companies do is create new servers in these cases ...
* Game that player has reached the maximum level, achieved the best items, will do what next? Getting cosmetics? The answer is easy!
Etc ...
_ I have some opinions if the game had to change some things, but for now is great! Waiting for patch 2.3 and a new expansion!