The source is counciousness operating infinitely in the whole spectrum of light.
I think its time we let go our old beliefs and restrains. We can still read into the holy books that already have but always remember that they are a subject of interpretation. These books can offer us great knowledge.
Untill we wont develop a language that cannot be interpreted we will be still disagreeing about things and even some things which may look as defenite to some, might still look unreasonable to others... Interpretation.
Saying that according to current evidence that God does not exist is a tough one because you need to define what is God for you. For an example, i could believe that conciousness is simply always existing metaphysicaly. I could believe that the nature we precieve around us, is actually light that shines in specific waves and creates certain illusions for us to see, hear etc.
I could totally say that this is enough evidence for me to believe that there actually is a conciousness energy. Not a deity and not a being, but simply energy waves. And that is what could be called, Intelligent infinity.
An entity like Yahweh could only be a being operating in this field of light and precieved by us as a creator of worlds. Just because we are so tiny, its actually kind of funny. An ant could live its whole life unaware of your presence, even if you were standing right untop of her.
The field of Ufo'logy and archeology are connected to our modern understanding of the universe. Not to talk about modern physics etc. I think that only when space proggrams will run by private corporations and commitees, all of the information could be disclosed to the public. As long as our space proggrams are dare i say, militaristic, then we will only be fed with piles of bullshit.
I just think that people should be more open minded.
God does not require an origin... Science does. In my initial post I mentioned that science is stuck in a self contained paradox. For the rules of relativistic science to hold true, then the universe itself must be contained within this rules. If these rules do hold true (without a god), we should not exist at all as there is no way for the origin to occur. ---> Matter cannot be created without energy. Energy cannot be created... simply change forms. <------
This is why I lean towards some sort of divine being rather than being an Atheist. It's a fact I feel like a lot of people ignore when going on religious tirades.
This is why I get so annoyed with alot of aethiests. I cannot describe how many I have seen go off in a frenzy about how close minded and ignorant people are that believe in god. I just feel that MOST (not all) aethiests are just as fanatical and ignorant as the religious nut-jubs they condemn.
I can respect aegnosticism (even if you believe that the universe was created by a giant space whale dropping a turd), but am perplexed by aethiesm. First, science is a higher power. Second, if there is no higher power at all... then what is the point of being an ethical person (and please note that statisically speaking aethiests are liberal politically).
I live well because it makes me happy, and since I don't believe in any sort of afterlife, or higher being I live for myself, and my loved ones because those are the things that effect my happiness. This life to me is all that is, afterword is nothing. I'm not going to be in the ground saying, "Well it sucks being dead". Death isn't something I fear, since after all from my view, when I die I won't have a mind to worry about it with. I do what I can in this life because it makes me happy.
At least your view guides you to do good things, be it one reason or another. You have not read my first post in this thread, or else you wouldn't have asked your part two question about why I do good, and not bad. I explain that deeper there if you're still left wanting an answer.
I just feel living on faith is a shame to your human gift of reason, why assume there is an afterlife, or a higher being? If you're wrong you've lived your life with false hopes, even though if you are wrong it won't matter in death. It's rational to live by facts, because if something else exists, than what a pleasant surprise, but if it doesn't than you've been as right as you could be with your races' hard earned knowledge.
I honestly feel it's a sign of weak rational development to believe otherwise, it very simply doesn't make sense. I could come up with infinite metaphysical solutions to life, but what good would that do? It dishonors everything your ancestors have worked for by developing the workd in which you live. By saying this, I want to also state I don't judge personality off of this topic, so anyone who I offend should know that. I may strongly disagree with you, but that dose not mean I don't like you. I separate this kind of stuff from outside topics with people, since just because we disagree doesn't mean we should bicker.
I can respect aegnosticism (even if you believe that the universe was created by a giant space whale dropping a turd), but am perplexed by aethiesm. First, science is a higher power. Second, if there is no higher power at all... then what is the point of being an ethical person (and please note that statisically speaking aethiests are liberal politically).
Not to undermine your questions or points, but that last paragraph is very uneducated. Honestly to explain where Science stands in this you have to A. have a logical foot on the ground, then B. partake in either a class on the matter, or do research online. If you views really are how you live by, than you won't accept any reasoning you find on the matter anyway.
The thing that irks me about metaphysical based views is you undermine all of mans' accomplishments. Nothing is real is pretty much what you're saying. Science isn't factual, and should be disregard. I don't understand the reasoning behind any of this. At this very moment 2+2=4, and has for as long as we know. Why not use that to your advantage?
“We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about.” - Albert Einstein
Second, if you do not believe in a higher power at all... then why do you believe in morals or ethics? If there is no extraworldly punishment for what we conceptualize as evil... why do YOU not live a hedonistic selfish life? Why do YOU conform to the rules of society when they do not personally benefit you? Theoretically, if there is no such thing as sin... then there is no reason to not commit these acts. Lying, Stealing, Cheating, Raping, Murder... they are all perfectly fine acts, as there is absolutely no reason to be an ethical person.
Very weak point. The overwhelming majority of prison inmates are religious and if you would argue that they become so after being incarcerated, then there is the even sadder reality that over half of the prison population are affected by recidivism.
Actual (practical) reasons not to:
lie- it decreases your credibility on the long run especially if you are discovered. Ever heard of the story of 'The boy who cried wolf'? Something like that. Being viewed as an untrustworthy person affects your chances of finding friends or a partner which are kind of desirable for a life in society nowadays.
Steal- You get sent to jail. Duh. No but seriously.
Rape- On top of being illegal, it is not the best way of spreading your genes or getting sexual gratification- you can get yourself badly hurt, acquire a deadly disease or increase the chance of reprisal in the form of having your dick cut off by the family of the victim or the victim her/himself. As you can see- very bad on the long term. Not to mention that there are various studies that have highlighted the main driving reason for rape is actually revenge.
Murder- It's very bad for health.
Anyway my main point is that if any of those acts become common place, they threaten the cohesion of the group you live in. The fact of the matter is that we are not driven by logic alone but by emotion too. Retribution alone will cause irreversible destruction.
So there is very much an actual reason not to do any of these beyond mere ethics/morality. Nothing to do with god.
You can't base your argument on that fact that you can't create matter form nothing, therefor there is a god (divine being, or whatever). We as humans have such little knowledge of the universe.
Black holes,as we understand them, bend light, which defies one of our laws of physics. They also may or may not destroy matter, which would break another law of physics. If these things can happen, then how can we be sure that you cannot create something out of nothing.
The fact that our laws of physics do not apply in all situations doesn't really prove anything, but we cannot make our choices based on laws that do not apply to everything in the universe.
I live well because it makes me happy, and since I don't believe in any sort of afterlife, or higher being I live for myself, and my loved ones because those are the things that effect my happiness. This life to me is all that is, afterword is nothing. I'm not going to be in the ground saying, "Well it sucks being dead". Death isn't something I fear, since after all from my view, when I die I won't have a mind to worry about it with. I do what I can in this life because it makes me happy.
At least your view guides you to do good things, be it one reason or another. You have not read my first post in this thread, or else you wouldn't have asked your part two question about why I do good, and not bad. I explain that deeper there if you're still left wanting an answer.
I just feel living on faith is a shame to your human gift of reason, why assume there is an afterlife, or a higher being? If you're wrong you've lived your life with false hopes, even though if you are wrong it won't matter in death. It's rational to live by facts, because if something else exists, than what a pleasant surprise, but if it doesn't than you've been as right as you could be with your races' hard earned knowledge.
I honestly feel it's a sign of weak rational development to believe otherwise, it very simply doesn't make sense. I could come up with infinite metaphysical solutions to life, but what good would that do? It dishonors everything your ancestors have worked for by developing the workd in which you live. By saying this, I want to also state I don't judge personality off of this topic, so anyone who I offend should know that. I may strongly disagree with you, but that dose not mean I don't like you. I separate this kind of stuff from outside topics with people, since just because we disagree doesn't mean we should bicker.
I can respect aegnosticism (even if you believe that the universe was created by a giant space whale dropping a turd), but am perplexed by aethiesm. First, science is a higher power. Second, if there is no higher power at all... then what is the point of being an ethical person (and please note that statisically speaking aethiests are liberal politically).
Not to undermine your questions or points, but that last paragraph is very uneducated. Honestly to explain where Science stands in this you have to A. have a logical foot on the ground, then B. partake in either a class on the matter, or do research online. If you views really are how you live by, than you won't accept any reasoning you find on the matter anyway.
The thing that irks me about metaphysical based views is you undermine all of mans' accomplishments. Nothing is real is pretty much what you're saying. Science isn't factual, and should be disregard. I don't understand the reasoning behind any of this. At this very moment 2+2=4, and has for as long as we know. Why not use that to your advantage?
I don't understand how you claim that statement is uneducated. If anything, I am overeducated. You, just like the majority of all aethiests I encounter refuse to define science as your "god". If I am going to agree with you and say that 2+2 ALWAYS equals 4... then you need to agree with me that in order for the big bang to occur something needed to exist before it ( and eventually at some point infinite years ago.. had to create the cycle that we are simply a part of). The energy for this event/singularity had to be in the universe before that point and therefore your science is only as theoretical as what you percieve god to be.
Its not that I don't believe science... Its that 100% of science is simply theoretical. String theory is theoretical. Black holes are theroetical. Higgs-Boson particles are Theoretical. The universe being 13Billion years old... is theoretical. The fact that DNA is a series of random events/ mutations from RNA is theoretical.
Have you seriously never had an ephiphany/moment that your life just feels (even if momentarily) surreal? If you have then you should know that the fact that we are self aware and even having this conversation is momentous.
You base your life off what you consider achievements of mankind (science). These achievements have been proven wrong again and again overtime... and as such... there is not such thing a scientific postivie... only a scientific negative. Also, wasn't albert einstein a christian?
You can't base your argument on that fact that you can't create matter form nothing, therefor there is a god (divine being, or whatever). We as humans have such little knowledge of the universe.
Black holes,as we understand them, bend light, which defies one of our laws of physics. They also may or may not destroy matter, which would break another law of physics. If these things can happen, then how can we be sure that you cannot create something out of nothing.
The fact that our laws of physics do not apply in all situations doesn't really prove anything, but we cannot make our choices based on laws that do not apply to everything in the universe.
Everything bends light :P. It's a big part of the theory of relativity ;). Light bends with space-time, which gravity itself bends. Other things bend light, like reflective objects, thus how rainbows are made, light being spread and bend into the viewable spectrum.
I'm not sure where you're placing your view though, but I just wanted to say that :P.
“We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about.” - Albert Einstein
Second, if you do not believe in a higher power at all... then why do you believe in morals or ethics? If there is no extraworldly punishment for what we conceptualize as evil... why do YOU not live a hedonistic selfish life? Why do YOU conform to the rules of society when they do not personally benefit you? Theoretically, if there is no such thing as sin... then there is no reason to not commit these acts. Lying, Stealing, Cheating, Raping, Murder... they are all perfectly fine acts, as there is absolutely no reason to be an ethical person.
Very weak point. The overwhelming majority of prison inmates are religious and if you would argue that they become so after being incarcerated, then there is the even sadder reality that over half of the prison population are affected by recidivism.
Actual (practical) reasons not to:
lie- it decreases your credibility on the long run especially if you are discovered. Ever heard of the story of 'The boy who cried wolf'? Something like that. Being viewed as an untrustworthy person affects your chances of finding friends or a partner which are kind of desirable for a life in society nowadays.
Steal- You get sent to jail. Duh. No but seriously.
Rape- On top of being illegal, it is not the best way of spreading your genes or getting sexual gratification- you can get yourself badly hurt, acquire a deadly disease or increase the chance of reprisal in the form of having your dick cut off by the family of the victim or the victim her/himself. As you can see- very bad on the long term. Not to mention that there are various studies that have highlighted the main driving reason for rape is actually revenge.
Murder- It's very bad for health.
Anyway my main point is that if any of those acts become common place, they threaten the cohesion of the group you live in. The fact of the matter is that we are not driven by logic alone but by emotion too. Retribution alone will cause irreversible destruction.
So there is very much an actual reason not to do any of these beyond mere ethics/morality. Nothing to do with god.
Read my statement again. EVERY rationale you listed is wordly. You stated that we make decisions based on emotions in addition to logic. If you want, I could start quoting sociology and explain how you only believe in the cohesion of the group based on the way you were raised. If you had been raised feral... emotion would play no part in your decision to not "sin".
You did not give me a single good reason why if I should live my life ethically. If I did not get caught for any of it... then I could not recieve the wordly punishment you listed. I should honestly just be a hedonist and spend my life trying to self gratify since there is absolutely nothing after this right?
I live well because it makes me happy, and since I don't believe in any sort of afterlife, or higher being I live for myself, and my loved ones because those are the things that effect my happiness. This life to me is all that is, afterword is nothing. I'm not going to be in the ground saying, "Well it sucks being dead". Death isn't something I fear, since after all from my view, when I die I won't have a mind to worry about it with. I do what I can in this life because it makes me happy.
At least your view guides you to do good things, be it one reason or another. You have not read my first post in this thread, or else you wouldn't have asked your part two question about why I do good, and not bad. I explain that deeper there if you're still left wanting an answer.
I just feel living on faith is a shame to your human gift of reason, why assume there is an afterlife, or a higher being? If you're wrong you've lived your life with false hopes, even though if you are wrong it won't matter in death. It's rational to live by facts, because if something else exists, than what a pleasant surprise, but if it doesn't than you've been as right as you could be with your races' hard earned knowledge.
I honestly feel it's a sign of weak rational development to believe otherwise, it very simply doesn't make sense. I could come up with infinite metaphysical solutions to life, but what good would that do? It dishonors everything your ancestors have worked for by developing the workd in which you live. By saying this, I want to also state I don't judge personality off of this topic, so anyone who I offend should know that. I may strongly disagree with you, but that dose not mean I don't like you. I separate this kind of stuff from outside topics with people, since just because we disagree doesn't mean we should bicker.
I can respect aegnosticism (even if you believe that the universe was created by a giant space whale dropping a turd), but am perplexed by aethiesm. First, science is a higher power. Second, if there is no higher power at all... then what is the point of being an ethical person (and please note that statisically speaking aethiests are liberal politically).
Not to undermine your questions or points, but that last paragraph is very uneducated. Honestly to explain where Science stands in this you have to A. have a logical foot on the ground, then B. partake in either a class on the matter, or do research online. If you views really are how you live by, than you won't accept any reasoning you find on the matter anyway.
The thing that irks me about metaphysical based views is you undermine all of mans' accomplishments. Nothing is real is pretty much what you're saying. Science isn't factual, and should be disregard. I don't understand the reasoning behind any of this. At this very moment 2+2=4, and has for as long as we know. Why not use that to your advantage?
I don't understand how you claim that statement is uneducated. If anything, I am overeducated. You, just like the majority of all aethiests I encounter refuse to define science as your "god". If I am going to agree with you and say that 2+2 ALWAYS equals 4... then you need to agree with me that in order for the big bang to occur something needed to exist before it ( and eventually at some point infinite years ago.. had to create the cycle that we are simply a part of). The energy for this event/singularity had to be in the universe before that point and therefore your science is only as theoretical as what you percieve god to be.
Its not that I don't believe science... Its that 100% of science is simply theoretical. String theory is theoretical. Black holes are theroetical. Higgs-Boson particles are Theoretical. The universe being 13Billion years old... is theoretical. The fact that DNA is a series of random events/ mutations from RNA is theoretical.
Have you seriously never had an ephiphany/moment that your life just feels (even if momentarily) surreal? If you have then you should know that the fact that we are self aware and even having this conversation is momentous.
You base your life off what you consider achievements of mankind (science). These achievements have been proven wrong again and again overtime... and as such... there is not such thing a scientific postivie... only a scientific negative. Also, wasn't albert einstein a christian?
I'm not saying you as a person are uneducated on this topic, you may very well be a perfusion on the topic. But your view on science being a religious concept lends itself to assuming you have not researched this topic through an education system. A simple dictionary can clearly define the two with their difference. Yes there was something before the Big Bang, and something before that, and so on. But I'd rather say, "I don't know what was there, but I'd like to one day find out" than "God was there". I'd rather leave the slate blank, since indeed that is the most logical thing to do, and than try to figure it out through science. Science has a base in which is the best thing we have to view reality from. Yes, I agree with you science is based on theory, but it's that process which has brought us everything we have today. What has your process brought us?
EDIT: Again I feel I have to state I'm not attacking you, I enjoy a good debate as long as all parties can hold their tempers :P.
“We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about.” - Albert Einstein
Everything bends light :P. It's a big part of the theory of relativity ;). Light bends with space-time, which gravity itself bends. Other things bend light, like reflective objects, thus how rainbows are made, light being spread and bend into the viewable spectrum.
I'm not sure where you're placing your view though, but I just wanted to say that :P.
It becomes further explained by quantum/ particle physics. We could also dive into that if we wanted :).
Everything bends light :P. It's a big part of the theory of relativity ;). Light bends with space-time, which gravity itself bends. Other things bend light, like reflective objects, thus how rainbows are made, light being spread and bend into the viewable spectrum.
I'm not sure where you're placing your view though, but I just wanted to say that :P.
It becomes further explained by quantum/ particle physics. We could also dive into that if we wanted :).
Indeed we could, it's a topic I'm very interested in (though far from professionally educated on). Anything past particle physics force me to draw from my personally researched knowledge, I've yet to take physics 4 X(. Quantum mechanics is a very new field too, and very based on untested theories. Though recently they've made a lot of headway with the particle collider I read.
“We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about.” - Albert Einstein
I'm not saying you as a person are uneducated on this topic, you may very well be a perfusion on the topic. But your view on science being a religious concept lends itself to assuming you have not researched this topic through an education system. A simple dictionary can clearly define the two with their difference. Yes there was something before the Big Bang, and something before that, and so on. But I'd rather say, "I don't know what was there, but I'd like to one day find out" than "God was there". I'd rather leave the slate blank, since indeed that is the most logical thing to do, and than try to figure it out through science. Science has a base in which is the best thing we have to view reality from. Yes, I agree with you science is based on theory, but it's that process which has brought us everything we have today. What has your process brought us?
Heres the thing.. I believe in and study modern science. I believe all the same stuff (science wise) you do.. I just believe that there is a God, and he is the root cause for the existence of the universe. I believe that he/it has impacted my life and that I should be thankful for certain events in my life that seem more than pure random chance.
As you stated earlier, there really is no harm in believing in god. If you die and there is no god... then no harm done. But what if you die and there IS a god? What if hell exists and you just damned yourself to it due to your staunch disbelief? Simply put, this is like the laptop + xbox deal going on in US right now. If you can recieve a free xbox with the purchase of your laptop (which you were going to buy anyways) why would you just simply deny it? Its free... and no cost to take it?
wow this such a simple discussion. If for an instance i say that God exists but then i go about my life as if he didnt, then doesnt matter wat i say i really dont believe that he exists b/c everything about my life depends on me and theres no room for GOd to intervene. If i say that he exists and throughout my life there are some things beyond my strenghts n i have to depend on God because im powerless, then that leaves room for God to intervene. i could go on but it would be pointless, unless you see God in ur history u'll never truly believe he exists.
Heres a question for you: What evolutionary benefit did Humans gain by being able to sense (see/hear/feel/taste) beauty? Why is it that we determine that music is auditorily pleasing? Art is is aesthetically pleasing... etc?
I'm not saying you as a person are uneducated on this topic, you may very well be a perfusion on the topic. But your view on science being a religious concept lends itself to assuming you have not researched this topic through an education system. A simple dictionary can clearly define the two with their difference. Yes there was something before the Big Bang, and something before that, and so on. But I'd rather say, "I don't know what was there, but I'd like to one day find out" than "God was there". I'd rather leave the slate blank, since indeed that is the most logical thing to do, and than try to figure it out through science. Science has a base in which is the best thing we have to view reality from. Yes, I agree with you science is based on theory, but it's that process which has brought us everything we have today. What has your process brought us?
Heres the thing.. I believe in and study modern science. I believe all the same stuff (science wise) you do.. I just believe that there is a God, and he is the root cause for the existence of the universe. I believe that he/it has impacted my life and that I should be thankful for certain events in my life that seem more than pure random chance.
As you stated earlier, there really is no harm in believing in god. If you die and there is no god... then no harm done. But what if you die and there IS a god? What if hell exists and you just damned yourself to it due to your staunch disbelief? Simply put, this is like the laptop + xbox deal going on in US right now. If you can recieve a free xbox with the purchase of your laptop (which you were going to buy anyways) why would you just simply deny it? Its free... and no cost to take it?
made a few mistakes there, God would only hold you accountable for what you kno so you wouldnt necessarily go to hell if you dont believe in hell, besides the hell to be worried about is the hell experienced on earth, n im talking about an individual hell in which person is never at peace, always stressed by things that go away once ur dead, is never satisfied and nothing ever truly beings him happiness. And you also have to remeber that God, at least Christian and Jewish God, is merciful and loving, in other words God is love. So if u do end up going to hell it has nothing to with God but everything to do with us, individually. We choose it, not God. I could go on but as i said b4 you have to see God in ur history to truly believe he exists. Well but since someone said its rational to live by facts ill add that the reasoning behind believing in God, for a true Christian is BASED on facts. I believe on God based on facts. doesnt mean im a true Christian tho, i doubt sometimes, but then again these doubts stem from my own weaknesses and powerlessness to control my life.
Simply put, this is like the laptop + xbox deal going on in US right now. If you can recieve a free xbox with the purchase of your laptop (which you were going to buy anyways) why would you just simply deny it? Its free... and no cost to take it?
God isn't the guy at Bestbuy handing you an Xbox though. I'm pretty sure that's not how it works. To me you're saying "better safe than sorry." but then you aren't really devoted to God or believe in God if you're just doing it to play it safe?
I'm not saying you as a person are uneducated on this topic, you may very well be a perfusion on the topic. But your view on science being a religious concept lends itself to assuming you have not researched this topic through an education system. A simple dictionary can clearly define the two with their difference. Yes there was something before the Big Bang, and something before that, and so on. But I'd rather say, "I don't know what was there, but I'd like to one day find out" than "God was there". I'd rather leave the slate blank, since indeed that is the most logical thing to do, and than try to figure it out through science. Science has a base in which is the best thing we have to view reality from. Yes, I agree with you science is based on theory, but it's that process which has brought us everything we have today. What has your process brought us?
Heres the thing.. I believe in and study modern science. I believe all the same stuff (science wise) you do.. I just believe that there is a God, and he is the root cause for the existence of the universe. I believe that he/it has impacted my life and that I should be thankful for certain events in my life that seem more than pure random chance.
As you stated earlier, there really is no harm in believing in god. If you die and there is no god... then no harm done. But what if you die and there IS a god? What if hell exists and you just damned yourself to it due to your staunch disbelief? Simply put, this is like the laptop + xbox deal going on in US right now. If you can recieve a free xbox with the purchase of your laptop (which you were going to buy anyways) why would you just simply deny it? Its free... and no cost to take it?
I'd be lying if I said you've come across clear in your view on science in that case. For most of the debate it seemed you more so believed in antirealism, that nothing really exists how we see it, pretty much the whole 2+2 doesn't equal 4 thing. And yes I did state there's no harm being done as long as A. your views lead you to do good, and B you don't force you views on others through force, but never the less I feel it's unhealthy to lend credit to something which is unprovable. I'd rather lend credit to myself, for making it through the hard time in one piece. That's another of my irks of religion in most cases, all too often credit is given away to the God, when it should be added to the persons' self esteem for toughing the problem out, or finding a solution.
I understand the whole, if I'm wrong oh well but if I'm write concept, but I feel it's not a strong base to stand on when living your life which requires so many choices. What if God hates men? Shit, it doesn't matter what we've done. What is God hates people who eat carrots? My point being there are infinite circumstances in which that view point could go wrong. So again, logically, it makes sense to only go off of what we know.
“We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about.” - Albert Einstein
Heres a question for you: What evolutionary benefit did Humans gain by being able to sense (see/hear/feel/taste) beauty? Why is it that we determine that music is auditorily pleasing? Art is is aesthetically pleasing... etc?
Well i do kno that when Im in the presence of something beatiful, like paintings, or incredibly designed room, I do feel more at peace. But when i leave the room or whatever, iust feel like fuck all this life sucks RAWRRAWRRAWR. sometimes. I also believe that God is in beauty.
Simply put, this is like the laptop + xbox deal going on in US right now. If you can recieve a free xbox with the purchase of your laptop (which you were going to buy anyways) why would you just simply deny it? Its free... and no cost to take it?
God isn't the guy at Bestbuy handing you an Xbox though. I'm pretty sure that's not how it works. To me you're saying "better safe than sorry." but then you aren't really devoted to God or believe in God if you're just doing it to play it safe?
According to the Jewish/Christian/Muslim religions you are correct, and I suppose drawing on the example of hell would infer that I meant you had to abide by one of those religions. However, I simply meant that it is possible that believing in god is a hedged bet, and that there is no damage done by doing so; whereas, believing against a god brings no realized benefits.
The topic of hell itself is a complex one, and as my Dad once stated (and he is extremely christian),"If hell is the way the bible describes it... then God has to be a Sadist."
Matter cannot be created without energy, and energy cannot be created... Only change forms. Simply put, science creates a paradox in which we should and cannot exist without a higher power. God may not be a being on a throne... He may not even have the capacity to be self aware... But science points to the fact that something sparked the universe/ multiverse/ big bang.
You can try to reply and question god's origin... But that logic is flawed. If he/it lies outside of the rules of realitivistic physics.. then time does not appt and no origin is required.
It is quite honestly more simple minded to claim there is no god than to worship the great pumpkin.
All you are saying is that we don't yet understand what the universe was like before the big bang. It must be possible for matter to be created, because matter "exists" right now. We only experience matter changing forms and being converted to energy, but somehow the matter got created in the first place. Our universe may be the result of a previous universe that collapsed back on itself, maybe there have been N universes prior to ours.
God is not a solution/answer to this mystery any more than ancient greeks blaming things on celestial movements.
In all this no matter how many universes there were you eventually have to come back to a beginning... at least as we understand time and space. Thus from a human perspective there has to have been something to kick start all of this... was it a divine creator... possibly (In fact I personally think so)... or was it something else... if so what is that something else?
Thats EXACTLY my point. Even if the universe continually collapses and expands... at some point time, matter, and energy needs an origin because it belongs to a universe governed by relativistic physics. In order for all that we know about science to be true... everything that we know and understand about relativistic phyiscs/ quantum physics needs to hold true under all cases within the universe. If this does not... then science itself is flawed and our entire understanding of the universe is flawed.
As I said earlier. God (which again is not a guy sitting on a throne) does not need to be governed by the laws of physics, and therefore does not need an origin. If god created time... why would he need to exist within it?
PS: Aethiesm is an oxy-moron. Most aethiests truely are not aethiests after all. Science is in and of itself a religion. Just like being unable to prove god, you are unable to prove science. You can never prove a fact 100%, you can only disprove something. This said, science is the fundamental creator for all these aethiests and therefore becomes a god.
You are wrong to say that we cannot prove things, only disprove them. This is truly incorrect. E.g. I can easily prove that there is an infinite amount of integers. I can prove that the earth is a sphere. etc.
What I dont understand about your position is how you automatically attribute something you dont understand (i.e. where the matter in the universe came from) to a special being "God". You say he is not a "man on a throne", however this is what popular religions depict him as. If you are calling "god" whatever was before the universe, then by way of labels, any atheist would be fine with that. The fact is, what you're saying doesn't matter because you are just making stuff up and giving it a label. What real religions/theology talk about god is an omnipresent being that exists RIGHT NOW all around us that is watching us and influencing us and accepting us into his everlasting kingdom.
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The source is counciousness operating infinitely in the whole spectrum of light.
I think its time we let go our old beliefs and restrains. We can still read into the holy books that already have but always remember that they are a subject of interpretation. These books can offer us great knowledge.
Untill we wont develop a language that cannot be interpreted we will be still disagreeing about things and even some things which may look as defenite to some, might still look unreasonable to others... Interpretation.
Saying that according to current evidence that God does not exist is a tough one because you need to define what is God for you. For an example, i could believe that conciousness is simply always existing metaphysicaly. I could believe that the nature we precieve around us, is actually light that shines in specific waves and creates certain illusions for us to see, hear etc.
I could totally say that this is enough evidence for me to believe that there actually is a conciousness energy. Not a deity and not a being, but simply energy waves. And that is what could be called, Intelligent infinity.
An entity like Yahweh could only be a being operating in this field of light and precieved by us as a creator of worlds. Just because we are so tiny, its actually kind of funny. An ant could live its whole life unaware of your presence, even if you were standing right untop of her.
The field of Ufo'logy and archeology are connected to our modern understanding of the universe. Not to talk about modern physics etc. I think that only when space proggrams will run by private corporations and commitees, all of the information could be disclosed to the public. As long as our space proggrams are dare i say, militaristic, then we will only be fed with piles of bullshit.
I just think that people should be more open minded.
This is why I get so annoyed with alot of aethiests. I cannot describe how many I have seen go off in a frenzy about how close minded and ignorant people are that believe in god. I just feel that MOST (not all) aethiests are just as fanatical and ignorant as the religious nut-jubs they condemn.
I can respect aegnosticism (even if you believe that the universe was created by a giant space whale dropping a turd), but am perplexed by aethiesm. First, science is a higher power. Second, if there is no higher power at all... then what is the point of being an ethical person (and please note that statisically speaking aethiests are liberal politically).
At least your view guides you to do good things, be it one reason or another. You have not read my first post in this thread, or else you wouldn't have asked your part two question about why I do good, and not bad. I explain that deeper there if you're still left wanting an answer.
I just feel living on faith is a shame to your human gift of reason, why assume there is an afterlife, or a higher being? If you're wrong you've lived your life with false hopes, even though if you are wrong it won't matter in death. It's rational to live by facts, because if something else exists, than what a pleasant surprise, but if it doesn't than you've been as right as you could be with your races' hard earned knowledge.
I honestly feel it's a sign of weak rational development to believe otherwise, it very simply doesn't make sense. I could come up with infinite metaphysical solutions to life, but what good would that do? It dishonors everything your ancestors have worked for by developing the workd in which you live. By saying this, I want to also state I don't judge personality off of this topic, so anyone who I offend should know that. I may strongly disagree with you, but that dose not mean I don't like you. I separate this kind of stuff from outside topics with people, since just because we disagree doesn't mean we should bicker.
Not to undermine your questions or points, but that last paragraph is very uneducated. Honestly to explain where Science stands in this you have to A. have a logical foot on the ground, then B. partake in either a class on the matter, or do research online. If you views really are how you live by, than you won't accept any reasoning you find on the matter anyway.
The thing that irks me about metaphysical based views is you undermine all of mans' accomplishments. Nothing is real is pretty much what you're saying. Science isn't factual, and should be disregard. I don't understand the reasoning behind any of this. At this very moment 2+2=4, and has for as long as we know. Why not use that to your advantage?
Very weak point. The overwhelming majority of prison inmates are religious and if you would argue that they become so after being incarcerated, then there is the even sadder reality that over half of the prison population are affected by recidivism.
Actual (practical) reasons not to:
lie- it decreases your credibility on the long run especially if you are discovered. Ever heard of the story of 'The boy who cried wolf'? Something like that. Being viewed as an untrustworthy person affects your chances of finding friends or a partner which are kind of desirable for a life in society nowadays.
Steal- You get sent to jail. Duh. No but seriously.
Rape- On top of being illegal, it is not the best way of spreading your genes or getting sexual gratification- you can get yourself badly hurt, acquire a deadly disease or increase the chance of reprisal in the form of having your dick cut off by the family of the victim or the victim her/himself. As you can see- very bad on the long term. Not to mention that there are various studies that have highlighted the main driving reason for rape is actually revenge.
Murder- It's very bad for health.
Anyway my main point is that if any of those acts become common place, they threaten the cohesion of the group you live in. The fact of the matter is that we are not driven by logic alone but by emotion too. Retribution alone will cause irreversible destruction.
So there is very much an actual reason not to do any of these beyond mere ethics/morality. Nothing to do with god.
Black holes,as we understand them, bend light, which defies one of our laws of physics. They also may or may not destroy matter, which would break another law of physics. If these things can happen, then how can we be sure that you cannot create something out of nothing.
The fact that our laws of physics do not apply in all situations doesn't really prove anything, but we cannot make our choices based on laws that do not apply to everything in the universe.
I don't understand how you claim that statement is uneducated. If anything, I am overeducated. You, just like the majority of all aethiests I encounter refuse to define science as your "god". If I am going to agree with you and say that 2+2 ALWAYS equals 4... then you need to agree with me that in order for the big bang to occur something needed to exist before it ( and eventually at some point infinite years ago.. had to create the cycle that we are simply a part of). The energy for this event/singularity had to be in the universe before that point and therefore your science is only as theoretical as what you percieve god to be.
Its not that I don't believe science... Its that 100% of science is simply theoretical. String theory is theoretical. Black holes are theroetical. Higgs-Boson particles are Theoretical. The universe being 13Billion years old... is theoretical. The fact that DNA is a series of random events/ mutations from RNA is theoretical.
Have you seriously never had an ephiphany/moment that your life just feels (even if momentarily) surreal? If you have then you should know that the fact that we are self aware and even having this conversation is momentous.
You base your life off what you consider achievements of mankind (science). These achievements have been proven wrong again and again overtime... and as such... there is not such thing a scientific postivie... only a scientific negative. Also, wasn't albert einstein a christian?
Everything bends light :P. It's a big part of the theory of relativity ;). Light bends with space-time, which gravity itself bends. Other things bend light, like reflective objects, thus how rainbows are made, light being spread and bend into the viewable spectrum.
I'm not sure where you're placing your view though, but I just wanted to say that :P.
Read my statement again. EVERY rationale you listed is wordly. You stated that we make decisions based on emotions in addition to logic. If you want, I could start quoting sociology and explain how you only believe in the cohesion of the group based on the way you were raised. If you had been raised feral... emotion would play no part in your decision to not "sin".
You did not give me a single good reason why if I should live my life ethically. If I did not get caught for any of it... then I could not recieve the wordly punishment you listed. I should honestly just be a hedonist and spend my life trying to self gratify since there is absolutely nothing after this right?
EDIT: Again I feel I have to state I'm not attacking you, I enjoy a good debate as long as all parties can hold their tempers :P.
It becomes further explained by quantum/ particle physics. We could also dive into that if we wanted :).
Heres the thing.. I believe in and study modern science. I believe all the same stuff (science wise) you do.. I just believe that there is a God, and he is the root cause for the existence of the universe. I believe that he/it has impacted my life and that I should be thankful for certain events in my life that seem more than pure random chance.
As you stated earlier, there really is no harm in believing in god. If you die and there is no god... then no harm done. But what if you die and there IS a god? What if hell exists and you just damned yourself to it due to your staunch disbelief? Simply put, this is like the laptop + xbox deal going on in US right now. If you can recieve a free xbox with the purchase of your laptop (which you were going to buy anyways) why would you just simply deny it? Its free... and no cost to take it?
made a few mistakes there, God would only hold you accountable for what you kno so you wouldnt necessarily go to hell if you dont believe in hell, besides the hell to be worried about is the hell experienced on earth, n im talking about an individual hell in which person is never at peace, always stressed by things that go away once ur dead, is never satisfied and nothing ever truly beings him happiness. And you also have to remeber that God, at least Christian and Jewish God, is merciful and loving, in other words God is love. So if u do end up going to hell it has nothing to with God but everything to do with us, individually. We choose it, not God. I could go on but as i said b4 you have to see God in ur history to truly believe he exists. Well but since someone said its rational to live by facts ill add that the reasoning behind believing in God, for a true Christian is BASED on facts. I believe on God based on facts. doesnt mean im a true Christian tho, i doubt sometimes, but then again these doubts stem from my own weaknesses and powerlessness to control my life.
God isn't the guy at Bestbuy handing you an Xbox though. I'm pretty sure that's not how it works. To me you're saying "better safe than sorry." but then you aren't really devoted to God or believe in God if you're just doing it to play it safe?
I understand the whole, if I'm wrong oh well but if I'm write concept, but I feel it's not a strong base to stand on when living your life which requires so many choices. What if God hates men? Shit, it doesn't matter what we've done. What is God hates people who eat carrots? My point being there are infinite circumstances in which that view point could go wrong. So again, logically, it makes sense to only go off of what we know.
According to the Jewish/Christian/Muslim religions you are correct, and I suppose drawing on the example of hell would infer that I meant you had to abide by one of those religions. However, I simply meant that it is possible that believing in god is a hedged bet, and that there is no damage done by doing so; whereas, believing against a god brings no realized benefits.
The topic of hell itself is a complex one, and as my Dad once stated (and he is extremely christian),"If hell is the way the bible describes it... then God has to be a Sadist."
You are wrong to say that we cannot prove things, only disprove them. This is truly incorrect. E.g. I can easily prove that there is an infinite amount of integers. I can prove that the earth is a sphere. etc.
What I dont understand about your position is how you automatically attribute something you dont understand (i.e. where the matter in the universe came from) to a special being "God". You say he is not a "man on a throne", however this is what popular religions depict him as. If you are calling "god" whatever was before the universe, then by way of labels, any atheist would be fine with that. The fact is, what you're saying doesn't matter because you are just making stuff up and giving it a label. What real religions/theology talk about god is an omnipresent being that exists RIGHT NOW all around us that is watching us and influencing us and accepting us into his everlasting kingdom.