And it's a good argument you're posing. "Since humans were all dumb back then, the prophets went easy on them and turned the facts into nice little fairy tales that they could swallow". Humans were very dumb indeed, with their bows and arrows, iron and steel armors; infrastructure, agriculture, the math they knew that reached to an early college education today. Very dumb indeed.
Look, if you could tone down the sarcasm a bit that would be wonderful. It's condescending sarcastic attitudes like this that make me want to close this thread. If you are going to discuss this, discuss it, don't bash the beliefs of others. Be mature please.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
And it's a good argument you're posing. "Since humans were all dumb back then, the prophets went easy on them and turned the facts into nice little fairy tales that they could swallow". Humans were very dumb indeed, with their bows and arrows, iron and steel armors; infrastructure, agriculture, the math they knew that reached to an early college education today. Very dumb indeed.
I may have underestimated the intelligence of ancient people, but I believe you are overestimating it. There were innovated geniuses who made breakthroughs in math, started to understand crop rotation, and developed new weaponry, however these people were not the majority. For religion to spread it must appeal the the masses, and the average person would have received no formal education and would not understand why any of those things work (although they might be able to replicate them) so I do find it hard to believe they would understand evolution and the concept of billions of years.
I believe you said it best here:
It's only a lack of education or a low IQ that would cause people to not understand such trivial things.
Since I believe you are right and human's intellectual capacity has not changed much throughout the years that would point to a lack of education. The average person would have revived no education besides possibly learning a skill that would give them work for the rest of their lives. Without a basic education it they would have no idea what the bible would be talking about if it mentioned billions of years or evolution and because of this it would be detrimental to the spread of Christianity if these things were included.
Jesus must've been sceptical even about using the number 6000 since that would take many minutes to count up to and people might lose count or grow bored of the challenge.
The people that invented all these things were the only ones that could conceive numbers so large, or think outside the box and question, even for a second, that maybe the universe doesn't revolve around us (Jesus must've been giving humans an ego-boost with this one).
The idea isn't so absurd as you may think though. Religious folk do tend to be the less educated and more narrow minded of the human populace, so conceiving numbers that big could have been out of their grasp. The prophets were smart though, they knew their target audience was huge, and still is today.
Until the day everyone gets an education right through to the end of college...
Yes, because nobody with a college education is religious.
Until the day everyone gets an education right through to the end of college...
I'm sorry, but that is just plain bigotry right there, I know tons of people who are religious AND have a college education, teachers, game designers, engineers, mathmeticians, even scientists, jsut because one is more intellectual and educated does not automatically mean religion = stupid.
Religion should not be protected, should be freely discriminated against, and is not on the same plane as gender or race. Most major religions discriminate against gender, religion, and sometimes nationality. That whole idea loops on itself.
Funny, my dad has a Master's in computer science and he's religious.
I'm in college right now, the more I learn of biology the less I believe evolution makes sense.
When will evolutionists realize they are merely following a fad and responding to a neurosis caused to them by their religious parents/school or whatever? Look at any teenage gathering, you're all the same, you're following a FAD. Bashing Inspectors, worshiping Dawkins or whoever it is you like to worship.
The amount of people that actually understand religion or evolution is so fucking minor you shouldn't even dare raise yourself over neither concept. Yet I never heard any religion basher say they don't follow religion because they don't get it. And it's usually because they don't get it. Lol.
The people you're bashing for following religion stupidly are Inspectors. They need a manual and they want to live by that manual, no matter how dumb it is or how baldy they understand it. For some it's law, for some religion, other things. Stop blaming religion for what is actually done by Inspectors (and their controllers). Any crime of man lies on man, not on religion.
Actually he is right. Anybody with a scientific degree is usually not religious. Most college professors are atheist, usually those in mathematics, physics, chemistry, philosophy, biology (especially this one), etc. There is no taboo in science, and saying that there is might be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.
Actually he is right. Anybody with a scientific degree is usually not religious. Most college professors are atheist, usually those in mathematics, physics, chemistry, philosophy, biology (especially this one), etc. There is no taboo in science, and saying that there is might be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.
I'm studying lab medicine and I still believe in God and have complete faith in my religion. Science explains the big bang and all that crap, it still fails to explain where all the shit that "banged" came from. If it managed to find that out, where did the things that resulted in the things that resulted in the big bang come from? And so on. God is the final answer, and all one has to have is faith to believe in it all. If God went on CNN and went like "hey you blasphemous fuckers, how about you stop listening to all your black Metal shit, put down your liquor bottle, and worship me, EH?" it would be absolutely fucking silly, and there'd be no thing as faith then, and everyone would simply worship God; and where's the "test" in that?
All that I see in this thread is people discussing Christianity. What about Judaism? What about Islam? Can you please tell me how Islam has failed? You seem hellbent on showcasing Christianity's failure, can you please tell me Islam's "wrongs" ? Let's assume for the sake of example, that the Bible is wrong here and there because it has been written again and again by that guy and that guy, with plenty of differences between people with regards to several subject. Islam only has the Quran. Islam only has two sects, differing in slight things, all things considered. Since some of you like to think that they know everything, and therefore everyone who is religious or even believes in God is a fucking nutcase, please tell me what you KNOW about Islam, what you think it has gotten wrong in its Holy book, what you think science has disproved in the Quran...etc. Oh wait, you haven't read the Quran? You don't know anything about Islam bar the fact that Muslims are turban wearing terrorists? Heh, thought so.
Not really, Christianity has the potential to change, the pillars of said change are already set, the Vatican accepting scientific pursuit readily, modern issues challenging old Christian ideals, even the followers themselves, around 60-70% of the Christian followers believe in a God yes, but not truly the Christian God.
So, if they don't believe in the Bible, or believe in the Christian deity...what makes them Christian?...
My hypothesis: If they do not believe in the Bible or believe in the Christian deity, they are no longer Christians.
Did I ever suggest forgive, no. Granted I don't really blame the current Catholic organization for atrocities commit around half a century ago, but note that I said learn from past mistakes. We learned from the Crusades that imperial conquest for the sake of religion = bad. We learned from the Holocaust that we must never remain isolationist in a world fileld with turmoil.
Exactly. We learned. They didn't. They continue to do stupid stunt after stupid stunt, and people continue to defend them for no reason.
Pay attention to explanation I gave in the same post, explaining the 'taboo' I speak of.
Again, I say this. There is no taboo of Science. You may imagine there is, and alot of religious folks do think there is some taboo of Science, but there isn't.
And if you continue to think there is, then please, give me evidence. (And make sure it's actual evidence.)
And it's a good argument you're posing. "Since humans were all dumb back then, the prophets went easy on them and turned the facts into nice little fairy tales that they could swallow". Humans were very dumb indeed, with their bows and arrows, iron and steel armors; infrastructure, agriculture, the math they knew that reached to an early college education today. Very dumb indeed.
Look, if you could tone down the sarcasm a bit that would be wonderful. It's condescending sarcastic attitudes like this that make me want to close this thread. If you are going to discuss this, discuss it, don't bash the beliefs of others. Be mature please.
I don't agree with Umpa often, but on this, I do. Religion, let your guns fly, but don't be mean to the people, know what I mean? The people don't deserve it. :/
(Side note, you two have the same number characters in your name. (Sorry, I know that's off topic. Just noticed it. Haha. ) )
Religion should not be protected, should be freely discriminated against, and is not on the same plane as gender or race. Most major religions discriminate against gender, religion, and sometimes nationality. That whole idea loops on itself.
I agree with that. The rest, not so much. But that part I agree on. :thumbsup:
Actually he is right. Anybody with a scientific degree is usually not religious. Most college professors are atheist, usually those in mathematics, physics, chemistry, philosophy, biology (especially this one), etc. There is no taboo in science, and saying that there is might be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.
I'm studying lab medicine and I still believe in God and have complete faith in my religion. Science explains the big bang and all that crap, it still fails to explain where all the shit that "banged" came from. If it managed to find that out, where did the things that resulted in the things that resulted in the big bang come from? And so on. God is the final answer, and all one has to have is faith to believe in it all. If God went on CNN and went like "hey you blasphemous fuckers, how about you stop listening to all your black Metal shit, put down your liquor bottle, and worship me, EH?" it would be absolutely fucking silly, and there'd be no thing as faith then, and everyone would simply worship God; and where's the "test" in that?
All that I see in this thread is people discussing Christianity. What about Judaism? What about Islam? Can you please tell me how Islam has failed? You seem hellbent on showcasing Christianity's failure, can you please tell me Islam's "wrongs" ? Let's assume for the sake of example, that the Bible is wrong here and there because it has been written again and again by that guy and that guy, with plenty of differences between people with regards to several subject. Islam only has the Quran. Islam only has two sects, differing in slight things, all things considered. Since some of you like to think that they know everything, and therefore everyone who is religious or even believes in God is a fucking nutcase, please tell me what you KNOW about Islam, what you think it has gotten wrong in its Holy book, what you think science has disproved in the Quran...etc. Oh wait, you haven't read the Quran? You don't know anything about Islam bar the fact that Muslims are turban wearing terrorists? Heh, thought so.
What makes Christians 'Christian' is Jesus "those who believe in me are to be granted eternal life", the Christian Bible (New Testament) is entirely Jesus' story (written by different accounts), so basically no matter what (be it your a criminal, murderer, humantiarian, or average joe) if you truly believe in Jesus Christ and that he is the Son of God and died on the cross for all of our sins (past, future, and present) then you shall be granted eternal life, that's Catholicism/Christianity in a nutshell.
And I did give specific examples, again the 'taboo' of science is our morality. Our morality is the reason why people don't diesct other people for the sake of studying anatomy (like Da Vinci did) or why we don't clone humans even though we have the technology to do so. As long as this morality exists (and it will as long as we are human beings) then religion shall exist, why? Because religion is basically the refelction of humanity's moral values.
Sorry guys, i didn't read all the thread because it's to huge right now. But i would like to point out one thing.
I realised that the people on the "science party" is surely on high school or something. Some people think stuff like "Newton's physics = perfect. Newton's physics = science. Science = perfect". Seriously, science is much larger set then newton's physics or any other secondary school stuff you're basing on.
Sciense is nothing more then an phylosophial investigation. Its based on conjectures, models and abstraction. In the end science is just human's interpretation of events and nature. Yes, it's the best interpretation, but far from perfect. Just study more advanced sciences and see how a scientfic model does not contain reality as whole. I cleary saw that by studing basic statistics and the application of regression models. People literaly tryes to "fit" real events inside equations and go out testing it to see if the test is good enough to be trusted. The "real equations", the ones that express the full behavior of nature are impossible to be found because of hidden stochastic factors.
Yes, science is the greatest form of knowledge. But a knowlegde to exist or being valid does not need scietific comprovation. Some scientific investigation contradicts traditional religious stand points, but never the existance of God or the value of faith. Science cannot prove that God does not exist, and you don't need scientific comprovation to believe in God or in gods.
Note: I'm an atheist. But i'm not because of science or this pathetic militance of Dawkins/Christopher Hitchens. I don't know if Dawkins is a competent scientist cause i'm not a biologist and can't judge, but i know his a terrible phylosophy-scientist (and all discusion of science vs. non-science knowlegd is mediated by the phylosophy of science discipline wich i'm familiar with).
I'm studying lab medicine and I still believe in God and have complete faith in my religion. Science explains the big bang and all that crap, it still fails to explain where all the shit that "banged" came from. If it managed to find that out, where did the things that resulted in the things that resulted in the big bang come from? And so on. God is the final answer, and all one has to have is faith to believe in it all. If God went on CNN and went like "hey you blasphemous fuckers, how about you stop listening to all your black Metal shit, put down your liquor bottle, and worship me, EH?" it would be absolutely fucking silly, and there'd be no thing as faith then, and everyone would simply worship God; and where's the "test" in that?
No it's not. If you're really studying lab science then you should know about the scientific method. You should know what unknowns are. Just because YOU think God is the only answer, does not mean that someone with a rational scientific mind can't see other answers. Do you know anything about the universe? How do you know how the universe formed? How do you know what was before it? The difference between you and me is that I am patient. I don't go straight to the entire "God is the ONLY answer" bullshit. I understand that I know NOTHING about the world around me, or even the world that isn't around me. Your perception on this is only one sided, and that to me, is a terrible way to get into whatever scientific field you're getting into.
Actually he is right. Anybody with a scientific degree is usually not religious. Most college professors are atheist, usually those in mathematics, physics, chemistry, philosophy, biology (especially this one), etc. There is no taboo in science, and saying that there is might be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.
I'm studying lab medicine and I still believe in God and have complete faith in my religion. Science explains the big bang and all that crap, it still fails to explain where all the shit that "banged" came from. If it managed to find that out, where did the things that resulted in the things that resulted in the big bang come from? And so on. God is the final answer, and all one has to have is faith to believe in it all. If God went on CNN and went like "hey you blasphemous fuckers, how about you stop listening to all your black Metal shit, put down your liquor bottle, and worship me, EH?" it would be absolutely fucking silly, and there'd be no thing as faith then, and everyone would simply worship God; and where's the "test" in that?
All that I see in this thread is people discussing Christianity. What about Judaism? What about Islam? Can you please tell me how Islam has failed? You seem hellbent on showcasing Christianity's failure, can you please tell me Islam's "wrongs" ? Let's assume for the sake of example, that the Bible is wrong here and there because it has been written again and again by that guy and that guy, with plenty of differences between people with regards to several subject. Islam only has the Quran. Islam only has two sects, differing in slight things, all things considered. Since some of you like to think that they know everything, and therefore everyone who is religious or even believes in God is a fucking nutcase, please tell me what you KNOW about Islam, what you think it has gotten wrong in its Holy book, what you think science has disproved in the Quran...etc. Oh wait, you haven't read the Quran? You don't know anything about Islam bar the fact that Muslims are turban wearing terrorists? Heh, thought so.
What makes Christians 'Christian' is Jesus "those who believe in me are to be granted eternal life", the Christian Bible (New Testament) is entirely Jesus' story (written by different accounts), so basically no matter what (be it your a criminal, murderer, humantiarian, or average joe) if you truly believe in Jesus Christ and that he is the Son of God and died on the cross for all of our sins (past, future, and present) then you shall be granted eternal life, that's Catholicism/Christianity in a nutshell.
And I did give specific examples, again the 'taboo' of science is our morality. Our morality is the reason why people don't diesct other people for the sake of studying anatomy (like Da Vinci did) or why we don't clone humans even though we have the technology to do so. As long as this morality exists (and it will as long as we are human beings) then religion shall exist, why? Because religion is basically the refelction of humanity's moral values.
I don't want to sound rude, but do you have any idea what the hell you're talking about?
There were innovated geniuses who made breakthroughs in math, started to understand crop rotation, and developed new weaponry, however these people were not the majority. For religion to spread it must appeal the the masses
You're making it sound as though Jesus is selling a product and only cares about the return, that is, to target the largest audience - which unsurprisingly was the uneducated.
Why would Jesus create the biggest lies in human history? So much for being perfect...
No really, this argument is moot because of the shear fact that Jesus never forced anyone to believe in him, it was their choice and he wasn't going to force their free will. To say that he changed the facts so that it would appeal to the masses sounds like an endeavour that would be made by humans, not Jesus or god.
What is much more likely is that when the prophets were writing the bible, they needed to answer the questions of where the Earth came to be, and since no one knew, they made up a story to answer it. It's a good ploy though, because there was no conceivable way of how humans could ever debunk this in any foreseeable future (I doubt they really cared if the religion were to survive into the 3rd millenium or not).
Funny, my dad has a Master's in computer science and he's religious.
And some people that don't have any degrees aren't religious. There will always be overlaps but the majority of college educated individuals would vote against the Earth being created 6000 years ago and other facts from the bible. Take note that this doesn't include those that believe god could be the creator of the universe. That is, the initiator of the big bang.
I'm in college right now, the more I learn of biology the less I believe evolution makes sense.
I would like to hear your reasons as to why evolution progressively makes less sense. I only have a high school education on the theory of evolution and what I've been taught so far seems quite plausible, considering that evolution on small scales can be observed everywhere.
When will evolutionists realize they are merely following a fad and responding to a neurosis caused to them by their religious parents/school or whatever? Look at any teenage gathering, you're all the same, you're following a FAD. Bashing Inspectors, worshiping Dawkins or whoever it is you like to worship.
The same argument can be used against Christianity. Except in this case the theory of evolution has evidence to support it, and seems logical. What does Christianity have? The word of mouth passed on over 2000 years? And religion was a fad at one point too, but at least now science has finally been able to answer some serious questions and given that many more people are getting an education now, the fad is quickly creeping over to the basic foundations of human development and innovation, science.
And some people that don't have any degrees aren't religious. There will always be overlaps but the majority of college educated individuals would vote against the Earth being created 6000 years ago and other facts from the bible.
And majorities have been correct about ANYTHING since when?
You do realize the science field is bigoted towards religious folk? Being religious there is career suicide. Just like being atheist in a BSA troop. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen. There's a stigma in science, and the stigma is so big and overreaching that it goes as far as this forum and people telling me I'm an idiot just because I don't believe in evolution (how scientific of you, bah).
I would like to hear your reasons as to why evolution progressively makes less sense. I only have a high school education on the theory of evolution and what I've been taught so far seems quite plausible, considering that evolution on small scales can be observed everywhere.
I've stated my reasons many times but if all you want to say to someone who does not agree with you is that they're an idiot, that person is eventually going to stop talking.
If you are 100% convinced in evolution that it is the absolute truth your views will not be faultered.
I do not have the scientific background to argue for or against evolution, really. But whenever I examine any biological anything the question I get stuck on is "how the EFF could have this happened by accident?" Which you're going to throw away and laugh at like everyone else.
Because all you "scientific" folk can do is laugh. Which is why I KNOW you're following a fad.
The same argument can be used against Christianity.
I'm not protecting Christianity, I'm criticizing you.
Just because many Christians are Inspectors (read: lazy and irresponsible) doesn't mean you have to stoop down to their level and be JUST LIKE THEM except in reverse.
Also, since there are still people who haven't heard it yet, I'm not Christian. My religion has no name. So it's useless for you to attack Christianity on me because I really do not care about Christianity.
Science and religion are separate fields. They do not exclude each other, and they may sometimes be in conflict but that doesn't really mean anything. Religion has a different purpose other than science. Religion specifically deals with questions science a) can't answer in your lifetime can't answer at all. I don't care that 400 years from now we'll discover that we CAN travel in time if I'll die by then. Religion and philosophy is all I have access to in MY LIFETIME.
It has nothing to do with education, I'm afraid. People are not any more educated now than they were before. I know what party colleges you go to. Thousands of years ago we had Aristotle and Socrates and Epicurus, who are much smarter than most of this "educated (atheist)" forum put together.
Actually he is right. Anybody with a scientific degree is usually not religious. Most college professors are atheist, usually those in mathematics, physics, chemistry, philosophy, biology (especially this one), etc. There is no taboo in science, and saying that there is might be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.
I'm studying lab medicine and I still believe in God and have complete faith in my religion. Science explains the big bang and all that crap, it still fails to explain where all the shit that "banged" came from. If it managed to find that out, where did the things that resulted in the things that resulted in the big bang come from? And so on. God is the final answer, and all one has to have is faith to believe in it all. If God went on CNN and went like "hey you blasphemous fuckers, how about you stop listening to all your black Metal shit, put down your liquor bottle, and worship me, EH?" it would be absolutely fucking silly, and there'd be no thing as faith then, and everyone would simply worship God; and where's the "test" in that?
All that I see in this thread is people discussing Christianity. What about Judaism? What about Islam? Can you please tell me how Islam has failed? You seem hellbent on showcasing Christianity's failure, can you please tell me Islam's "wrongs" ? Let's assume for the sake of example, that the Bible is wrong here and there because it has been written again and again by that guy and that guy, with plenty of differences between people with regards to several subject. Islam only has the Quran. Islam only has two sects, differing in slight things, all things considered. Since some of you like to think that they know everything, and therefore everyone who is religious or even believes in God is a fucking nutcase, please tell me what you KNOW about Islam, what you think it has gotten wrong in its Holy book, what you think science has disproved in the Quran...etc. Oh wait, you haven't read the Quran? You don't know anything about Islam bar the fact that Muslims are turban wearing terrorists? Heh, thought so.
Win. Lol CNN... had me laughing so hard at work.
On a complete side note, I love how people discuss Christianity and don't even know the core beliefs of Christianity... Faith/Belief alone is not the plan of salvation according to the New Testament.
What makes Christians 'Christian' is Jesus "those who believe in me are to be granted eternal life", the Christian Bible (New Testament) is entirely Jesus' story (written by different accounts), so basically no matter what (be it your a criminal, murderer, humantiarian, or average joe) if you truly believe in Jesus Christ and that he is the Son of God and died on the cross for all of our sins (past, future, and present) then you shall be granted eternal life, that's Catholicism/Christianity in a nutshell.
And I did give specific examples, again the 'taboo' of science is our morality. Our morality is the reason why people don't diesct other people for the sake of studying anatomy (like Da Vinci did) or why we don't clone humans even though we have the technology to do so. As long as this morality exists (and it will as long as we are human beings) then religion shall exist, why? Because religion is basically the refelction of humanity's moral values.
I don't want to sound rude, but do you have any idea what the hell you're talking about?
Yes I do *sigh*, please come up with better debating strategy rather than poor ad hominem, if you desire to counter my argument (which clearly you do on the intent of that post) then please bring in examples, maybe some quotes from myself to actually try and prove why you don't think I'm making sense for whatever reason.
So far you haven't, here's the following examples:
1) you first criticized me for contradicting myself and you haven't brought evidence/proofs/quotes from myself to support that statement
2) you bring up the concept that religion and science can't coexist with each other which actually is hyprocritical because previous in this thread you actually understood my religion (Deism) and agreed it was logical to coexist with science
3) you asked this same question twice and not once have you brought any examples to backup your statement.
If you wish to argue/debate against me I ask you to do so in the correct way with proof of somekind rather than aggravated opinion which only targets me the speaker rather than the context of my posts/argument.
I realised that the people on the "science party" is surely on high school or something. Some people think stuff like "Newton's physics = perfect. Newton's physics = science. Science = perfect". Seriously, science is much larger set then newton's physics or any other secondary school stuff you're basing on.
If I am not mistaken, Newtonian Physics (Like F=ma) was found incorrect by Einstein. o.O
Note: I'm an atheist. But i'm not because of science or this pathetic militance of Dawkins/Christopher Hitchens. I don't know if Dawkins is a competent scientist cause i'm not a biologist and can't judge, but i know his a terrible phylosophy-scientist (and all discusion of science vs. non-science knowlegd is mediated by the phylosophy of science discipline wich i'm familiar with).
Actually, it is people like Dawkins and the FFRF that are making it so that Atheists don't have to hide "stay in the closet" so to speak. They are not always the most tactile people, but they do a job that many, if not most, are unwilling to do. And it makes me glad that there are more of them today then there used to be.
I would like to hear your reasons as to why evolution progressively makes less sense. I only have a high school education on the theory of evolution and what I've been taught so far seems quite plausible, considering that evolution on small scales can be observed everywhere.
Please don't. We spent days trying to explain to her that microevolution and macroevolution are the same thing, and she couldn't wrap her mind around it. I don't think any of us want another round. >.<
Science and religion are separate fields. They do not exclude each other, and they may sometimes be in conflict but that doesn't really mean anything. Religion has a different purpose other than science. Religion specifically deals with questions science a) can't answer in your lifetime can't answer at all. I don't care that 400 years from now we'll discover that we CAN travel in time if I'll die by then. Religion and philosophy is all I have access to in MY LIFETIME.
But why? Why do you follow something if you could put your mind, which I know very well is sharp, to a better use, to pushing the bounds of modern science, to help progress the Human Species forward to the next frontier, whether it be medicine, physics, biology, or other such thing. It makes no sense to simply say "It won't happen in my life, so why help?" It seems, to me at least, like a waste of a great mind.
Thousands of years ago we had Aristotle and Socrates and Epicurus, who are much smarter than most of this "educated (atheist)" forum put together.
And they Aristotle, Socrates, and Epicurus all thought that A ) The world was flat and B ) the Sun went around the Earth.
It's not that they were smarter then we, or that we are smarter then they, we have simply built upon their knowledge, with knowledge of our own. If you think they were smarter, you are mistaken. If you think we are smarter, you are, again, mistaken. They and we are alike. (When I say we, I don't men you and I, I mean men and women greater then us. Hawkins and Sagan and Kaku and other great minds.)
Edit: Hey AnathemicOne, is that new Avatar Alexstrasza? Or another generic elf/dragon?
There is a new aproach in today's world that combines the aspects of spirtuality with science. I like to believe in this and have hope that someday there will be no more seperation between the two. Because after all, the holy books are some kind of history books with alot of scientific material in them. Especially the Quran that is.
There is a new aproach in today's world that combines the aspects of spirtuality with science. I like to believe in this and have hope that someday there will be no more seperation between the two. Because after all, the holy books are some kind of history books with alot of scientific material in them. Especially the Quran that is.
Please don't take this the wrong way as I am trying to say this in a kind fashion (Which as many people know, is difficult for me ) but...what science is in the holy books? I don't remember reading that the universe is 14 billion years old, or that e=mc^2, or that light travels at 299,792,458 m/s... If I am mistaken and these facts are in the Bible and Quran and Torah and Bagavad Gita or other such holy books then please enlighten me, as I don't like not knowing stuff.
There is a new aproach in today's world that combines the aspects of spirtuality with science. I like to believe in this and have hope that someday there will be no more seperation between the two. Because after all, the holy books are some kind of history books with alot of scientific material in them. Especially the Quran that is.
Please don't take this the wrong way as I am trying to say this in a kind fashion (Which as many people know, is difficult for me ) but...what science is in the holy books? I don't remember reading that the universe is 14 billion years old, or that e=mc^2, or that light travels at 299,792,458 m/s... If I am mistaken and these facts are in the Bible and Quran and Torah and Bagavad Gita or other such holy books then please enlighten me, as I don't like not knowing stuff.
Well, you wont find equations and numbers in the holy books but you will find scientific writings and explanations. Im gona use two examples that i remember at the moment and they are both from the Quran. I am not exactly sure but here goes, it is said that if a fly flies into your plate while you are eating, then squishing it and eating it is a good thing. That comes from the fact that a fly has many protiens and it counts as food. Some other thing was a saying that said something along these lines "If the man wants to reach the moon, he will do it by sceince and knowledge". These examples are just the tip of an iceberg. In the old testament there's a description about how to build many things such as a wall, a special type of wall that is. Anyway dude, like it or not but the holy books have sceince in them, we just got to look deeper and study more. Not everything is explained in a way that is 100% sure. There are still things that are re-explained even today.
You also have the fact that flies are covered in bacteria and other such things, along with the fact that they play in feces, which is not good. I for one would disagree with the Quran's "scientific" fact that flies are good, on the basis that flies are not good to eat. As for the Moon, that's not science that it requires science to get to the moon, it's common sense that it requires science to get to the moon.
I still don't see any science in the holy books.
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Look, if you could tone down the sarcasm a bit that would be wonderful. It's condescending sarcastic attitudes like this that make me want to close this thread. If you are going to discuss this, discuss it, don't bash the beliefs of others. Be mature please.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
I may have underestimated the intelligence of ancient people, but I believe you are overestimating it. There were innovated geniuses who made breakthroughs in math, started to understand crop rotation, and developed new weaponry, however these people were not the majority. For religion to spread it must appeal the the masses, and the average person would have received no formal education and would not understand why any of those things work (although they might be able to replicate them) so I do find it hard to believe they would understand evolution and the concept of billions of years.
I believe you said it best here:
Since I believe you are right and human's intellectual capacity has not changed much throughout the years that would point to a lack of education. The average person would have revived no education besides possibly learning a skill that would give them work for the rest of their lives. Without a basic education it they would have no idea what the bible would be talking about if it mentioned billions of years or evolution and because of this it would be detrimental to the spread of Christianity if these things were included.
Yes, because nobody with a college education is religious.
I'm sorry, but that is just plain bigotry right there, I know tons of people who are religious AND have a college education, teachers, game designers, engineers, mathmeticians, even scientists, jsut because one is more intellectual and educated does not automatically mean religion = stupid.
Funny, my dad has a Master's in computer science and he's religious.
I'm in college right now, the more I learn of biology the less I believe evolution makes sense.
When will evolutionists realize they are merely following a fad and responding to a neurosis caused to them by their religious parents/school or whatever? Look at any teenage gathering, you're all the same, you're following a FAD. Bashing Inspectors, worshiping Dawkins or whoever it is you like to worship.
The amount of people that actually understand religion or evolution is so fucking minor you shouldn't even dare raise yourself over neither concept. Yet I never heard any religion basher say they don't follow religion because they don't get it. And it's usually because they don't get it. Lol.
The people you're bashing for following religion stupidly are Inspectors. They need a manual and they want to live by that manual, no matter how dumb it is or how baldy they understand it. For some it's law, for some religion, other things. Stop blaming religion for what is actually done by Inspectors (and their controllers). Any crime of man lies on man, not on religion.
I'm studying lab medicine and I still believe in God and have complete faith in my religion. Science explains the big bang and all that crap, it still fails to explain where all the shit that "banged" came from. If it managed to find that out, where did the things that resulted in the things that resulted in the big bang come from? And so on. God is the final answer, and all one has to have is faith to believe in it all. If God went on CNN and went like "hey you blasphemous fuckers, how about you stop listening to all your black Metal shit, put down your liquor bottle, and worship me, EH?" it would be absolutely fucking silly, and there'd be no thing as faith then, and everyone would simply worship God; and where's the "test" in that?
All that I see in this thread is people discussing Christianity. What about Judaism? What about Islam? Can you please tell me how Islam has failed? You seem hellbent on showcasing Christianity's failure, can you please tell me Islam's "wrongs" ? Let's assume for the sake of example, that the Bible is wrong here and there because it has been written again and again by that guy and that guy, with plenty of differences between people with regards to several subject. Islam only has the Quran. Islam only has two sects, differing in slight things, all things considered. Since some of you like to think that they know everything, and therefore everyone who is religious or even believes in God is a fucking nutcase, please tell me what you KNOW about Islam, what you think it has gotten wrong in its Holy book, what you think science has disproved in the Quran...etc. Oh wait, you haven't read the Quran? You don't know anything about Islam bar the fact that Muslims are turban wearing terrorists? Heh, thought so.
Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions
So, if they don't believe in the Bible, or believe in the Christian deity...what makes them Christian?...
My hypothesis: If they do not believe in the Bible or believe in the Christian deity, they are no longer Christians.
Exactly. We learned. They didn't. They continue to do stupid stunt after stupid stunt, and people continue to defend them for no reason.
Again, I say this. There is no taboo of Science. You may imagine there is, and alot of religious folks do think there is some taboo of Science, but there isn't.
And if you continue to think there is, then please, give me evidence. (And make sure it's actual evidence.)
I don't agree with Umpa often, but on this, I do. Religion, let your guns fly, but don't be mean to the people, know what I mean? The people don't deserve it. :/
(Side note, you two have the same number characters in your name. (Sorry, I know that's off topic. Just noticed it. Haha. ) )
I agree with that. The rest, not so much. But that part I agree on. :thumbsup:
Edited because of coding error.
What makes Christians 'Christian' is Jesus "those who believe in me are to be granted eternal life", the Christian Bible (New Testament) is entirely Jesus' story (written by different accounts), so basically no matter what (be it your a criminal, murderer, humantiarian, or average joe) if you truly believe in Jesus Christ and that he is the Son of God and died on the cross for all of our sins (past, future, and present) then you shall be granted eternal life, that's Catholicism/Christianity in a nutshell.
And I did give specific examples, again the 'taboo' of science is our morality. Our morality is the reason why people don't diesct other people for the sake of studying anatomy (like Da Vinci did) or why we don't clone humans even though we have the technology to do so. As long as this morality exists (and it will as long as we are human beings) then religion shall exist, why? Because religion is basically the refelction of humanity's moral values.
I realised that the people on the "science party" is surely on high school or something. Some people think stuff like "Newton's physics = perfect. Newton's physics = science. Science = perfect". Seriously, science is much larger set then newton's physics or any other secondary school stuff you're basing on.
Sciense is nothing more then an phylosophial investigation. Its based on conjectures, models and abstraction. In the end science is just human's interpretation of events and nature. Yes, it's the best interpretation, but far from perfect. Just study more advanced sciences and see how a scientfic model does not contain reality as whole. I cleary saw that by studing basic statistics and the application of regression models. People literaly tryes to "fit" real events inside equations and go out testing it to see if the test is good enough to be trusted. The "real equations", the ones that express the full behavior of nature are impossible to be found because of hidden stochastic factors.
Yes, science is the greatest form of knowledge. But a knowlegde to exist or being valid does not need scietific comprovation. Some scientific investigation contradicts traditional religious stand points, but never the existance of God or the value of faith. Science cannot prove that God does not exist, and you don't need scientific comprovation to believe in God or in gods.
Note: I'm an atheist. But i'm not because of science or this pathetic militance of Dawkins/Christopher Hitchens. I don't know if Dawkins is a competent scientist cause i'm not a biologist and can't judge, but i know his a terrible phylosophy-scientist (and all discusion of science vs. non-science knowlegd is mediated by the phylosophy of science discipline wich i'm familiar with).
No it's not. If you're really studying lab science then you should know about the scientific method. You should know what unknowns are. Just because YOU think God is the only answer, does not mean that someone with a rational scientific mind can't see other answers. Do you know anything about the universe? How do you know how the universe formed? How do you know what was before it? The difference between you and me is that I am patient. I don't go straight to the entire "God is the ONLY answer" bullshit. I understand that I know NOTHING about the world around me, or even the world that isn't around me. Your perception on this is only one sided, and that to me, is a terrible way to get into whatever scientific field you're getting into.
I don't want to sound rude, but do you have any idea what the hell you're talking about?
Why would Jesus create the biggest lies in human history? So much for being perfect...
No really, this argument is moot because of the shear fact that Jesus never forced anyone to believe in him, it was their choice and he wasn't going to force their free will. To say that he changed the facts so that it would appeal to the masses sounds like an endeavour that would be made by humans, not Jesus or god.
What is much more likely is that when the prophets were writing the bible, they needed to answer the questions of where the Earth came to be, and since no one knew, they made up a story to answer it. It's a good ploy though, because there was no conceivable way of how humans could ever debunk this in any foreseeable future (I doubt they really cared if the religion were to survive into the 3rd millenium or not).
I would like to hear your reasons as to why evolution progressively makes less sense. I only have a high school education on the theory of evolution and what I've been taught so far seems quite plausible, considering that evolution on small scales can be observed everywhere.
The same argument can be used against Christianity. Except in this case the theory of evolution has evidence to support it, and seems logical. What does Christianity have? The word of mouth passed on over 2000 years? And religion was a fad at one point too, but at least now science has finally been able to answer some serious questions and given that many more people are getting an education now, the fad is quickly creeping over to the basic foundations of human development and innovation, science.
You do realize the science field is bigoted towards religious folk? Being religious there is career suicide. Just like being atheist in a BSA troop. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen. There's a stigma in science, and the stigma is so big and overreaching that it goes as far as this forum and people telling me I'm an idiot just because I don't believe in evolution (how scientific of you, bah).
Since we're generally talking about biased polls, we're probably talking about all sorts of people.
I've stated my reasons many times but if all you want to say to someone who does not agree with you is that they're an idiot, that person is eventually going to stop talking.
If you are 100% convinced in evolution that it is the absolute truth your views will not be faultered.
I do not have the scientific background to argue for or against evolution, really. But whenever I examine any biological anything the question I get stuck on is "how the EFF could have this happened by accident?" Which you're going to throw away and laugh at like everyone else.
Because all you "scientific" folk can do is laugh. Which is why I KNOW you're following a fad.
I'm not protecting Christianity, I'm criticizing you.
Just because many Christians are Inspectors (read: lazy and irresponsible) doesn't mean you have to stoop down to their level and be JUST LIKE THEM except in reverse.
Also, since there are still people who haven't heard it yet, I'm not Christian. My religion has no name. So it's useless for you to attack Christianity on me because I really do not care about Christianity.
Science and religion are separate fields. They do not exclude each other, and they may sometimes be in conflict but that doesn't really mean anything. Religion has a different purpose other than science. Religion specifically deals with questions science a) can't answer in your lifetime can't answer at all. I don't care that 400 years from now we'll discover that we CAN travel in time if I'll die by then. Religion and philosophy is all I have access to in MY LIFETIME.
It has nothing to do with education, I'm afraid. People are not any more educated now than they were before. I know what party colleges you go to. Thousands of years ago we had Aristotle and Socrates and Epicurus, who are much smarter than most of this "educated (atheist)" forum put together.
Win. Lol CNN... had me laughing so hard at work.
On a complete side note, I love how people discuss Christianity and don't even know the core beliefs of Christianity... Faith/Belief alone is not the plan of salvation according to the New Testament.
unzip, strip, touch, finger, grep, mount, fsck, more, yes, fsck, fsck, fsck, umount, sleep
Yes I do *sigh*, please come up with better debating strategy rather than poor ad hominem, if you desire to counter my argument (which clearly you do on the intent of that post) then please bring in examples, maybe some quotes from myself to actually try and prove why you don't think I'm making sense for whatever reason.
So far you haven't, here's the following examples:
1) you first criticized me for contradicting myself and you haven't brought evidence/proofs/quotes from myself to support that statement
2) you bring up the concept that religion and science can't coexist with each other which actually is hyprocritical because previous in this thread you actually understood my religion (Deism) and agreed it was logical to coexist with science
3) you asked this same question twice and not once have you brought any examples to backup your statement.
If you wish to argue/debate against me I ask you to do so in the correct way with proof of somekind rather than aggravated opinion which only targets me the speaker rather than the context of my posts/argument.
If I am not mistaken, Newtonian Physics (Like F=ma) was found incorrect by Einstein. o.O
Actually, it is people like Dawkins and the FFRF that are making it so that Atheists don't have to hide "stay in the closet" so to speak. They are not always the most tactile people, but they do a job that many, if not most, are unwilling to do. And it makes me glad that there are more of them today then there used to be.
Please don't. We spent days trying to explain to her that microevolution and macroevolution are the same thing, and she couldn't wrap her mind around it. I don't think any of us want another round. >.<
But why? Why do you follow something if you could put your mind, which I know very well is sharp, to a better use, to pushing the bounds of modern science, to help progress the Human Species forward to the next frontier, whether it be medicine, physics, biology, or other such thing. It makes no sense to simply say "It won't happen in my life, so why help?" It seems, to me at least, like a waste of a great mind.
And they Aristotle, Socrates, and Epicurus all thought that A ) The world was flat and B ) the Sun went around the Earth.
It's not that they were smarter then we, or that we are smarter then they, we have simply built upon their knowledge, with knowledge of our own. If you think they were smarter, you are mistaken. If you think we are smarter, you are, again, mistaken. They and we are alike. (When I say we, I don't men you and I, I mean men and women greater then us. Hawkins and Sagan and Kaku and other great minds.)
Edit: Hey AnathemicOne, is that new Avatar Alexstrasza? Or another generic elf/dragon?
Please don't take this the wrong way as I am trying to say this in a kind fashion (Which as many people know, is difficult for me ) but...what science is in the holy books? I don't remember reading that the universe is 14 billion years old, or that e=mc^2, or that light travels at 299,792,458 m/s... If I am mistaken and these facts are in the Bible and Quran and Torah and Bagavad Gita or other such holy books then please enlighten me, as I don't like not knowing stuff.
Well, you wont find equations and numbers in the holy books but you will find scientific writings and explanations. Im gona use two examples that i remember at the moment and they are both from the Quran. I am not exactly sure but here goes, it is said that if a fly flies into your plate while you are eating, then squishing it and eating it is a good thing. That comes from the fact that a fly has many protiens and it counts as food. Some other thing was a saying that said something along these lines "If the man wants to reach the moon, he will do it by sceince and knowledge". These examples are just the tip of an iceberg. In the old testament there's a description about how to build many things such as a wall, a special type of wall that is. Anyway dude, like it or not but the holy books have sceince in them, we just got to look deeper and study more. Not everything is explained in a way that is 100% sure. There are still things that are re-explained even today.
Also, spirtuality is a form of sceince.
I still don't see any science in the holy books.