To be honest I don't understand why people hate on pvp so much. Too hard to play against players as opposed to AI? I've heard countless arguments from both sides and to be honest I believe that in the end competitive PvP (esports) is what's going to allow a game to thrive.
For example. When The Burning Crusade for WoW came out, the arena following was HUGE. A lot of general pvp demographic knew the top players and the top teams by name. In the Blizzcon 2008 tournaments there was just as many people watching the 3v3 arena matches as there are people watching the Starcraft/WC3 matches. So what about Blizzcon 2011? You guessed it, small turn-out indeed. WoW still has a tremendous amount of players. But the players are just zombies in that game now. Sure there are die hard PvE guilds with die hard PvE players who only log on during raid hours, but come on, there's a reason why the game is slowly dying despite the creative innovations implemented in the PvE encounters.... BECAUSE THERE IS NO HYPE. There is no venue platform where die hard fans are screaming at the top of their lungs, chanting for their team. PvE brings excitement to an individual, not as a group.
So I ask, please don't turn D3 into a game that's only surviving because of numerous expansions. And please let it survive because of the passion that the players have for the game.
TL;DR: PvP eSports is the way to go; just as watching an NFL game is better than watching people playing Madden against AI's.
World of Warcraft arena in paticular has been excluded from multiple esports, for example MLG, events due to it's high unbalancedness (+ several details, such as no spectator mode). Perhaps with less classes and lot less class-flavorness in D3 we will have a stable balanced arena.
Ok who am I kidding, it's gonna be unbalanced as fuck.
World of Warcraft arena in paticular has been excluded from multiple esports, for example MLG, events due to it's high unbalancedness (+ several details, such as no spectator mode). Perhaps with less classes and lot less class-flavorness in D3 we will have a stable balanced arena.
Ok who am I kidding, it's gonna be unbalanced as fuck.
and it should be.
As polls and these and other forums have proven ... in the eye of the mainstream diablo fan ...
World of Warcraft arena in paticular has been excluded from multiple esports, for example MLG, events due to it's high unbalancedness (+ several details, such as no spectator mode). Perhaps with less classes and lot less class-flavorness in D3 we will have a stable balanced arena.
Ok who am I kidding, it's gonna be unbalanced as fuck.
I completely agree that WoW is and was unbalanced. But there was a time where it was close to being balanced and at that time new balancing changes were implemented in every patch, big or small. Nowadays I barely see a PvP change in an entire patch.
And yes you're right that d3 is most likely going to be unbalanced, but if Blizz cares enough to try to balance it like in TBC of WoW, then the fans will care.
World of Warcraft arena in paticular has been excluded from multiple esports, for example MLG, events due to it's high unbalancedness (+ several details, such as no spectator mode). Perhaps with less classes and lot less class-flavorness in D3 we will have a stable balanced arena.
Ok who am I kidding, it's gonna be unbalanced as fuck.
and it should be.
As polls and these and other forums have proven ... in the eye of the mainstream diablo fan ...
PvE > PVP
I really don't want to turn this into a pve vs. pvp debate because I know you're not going to listen to what I have to say and I also know you don't have anything infallible/circumstantial that will change my mind about pve.
PvP is hands down my biggest reason for even wanting to play this game.
Fighting monsters is boring and repetitive, it doesn't really matter how good you make the monster AI, it doesn't matter how many dungeons you create, it's a predictable endless loop of pointlessness. Better gear for killing more monsters? How lame.
Now, if there is an incentive there to drive better and better PvP, the competitiveness of hunting a truly worthy opponent, another human who has worked hard on his gear and his skills to beat you in the arena, now that is something worth playing for.
Absolutely 100% agree with the OP, Esports is the single most amazing thing in the world of gaming, we want and need this from you blizzard, don't let us down.
I agree with the pro- pvp people in this thread. And besides - Diablo 3 PvP can't be as unbalanced as Diablo 2 PvP anyways...
Ah... the countless hours I spent with my Hammerdin in front of the bridge of Act 1 - fighting spinning Barbs and Amazons with duped items! Those were the times...and to be honest I didn't see that many people complaining.
So I ask you a question you "PVE IS THE BEST! DEATH TO PVP IN D3"- type of guys - Are you afraid of the competition? Why does PvP bother you when you have your PvE boss? I mean, nobody is going to pressure you to play PvP anyways.
So keep your damn childish opinions to yourself!
Indeed, why does the PvE mainly players always have to go on the defence when it comes to PvP. It is possible to have both you know..
Diablo 3 could easly be a top PvP and PvE game. Making PvP better does not equal making PvE worse try to understand that...
And how is farming AI more fun then fighting real thinking people?
The only reason most games survive for years and years after release is because of a competitive PvP community.
PvP is hands down my biggest reason for even wanting to play this game.
Fighting monsters is boring and repetitive, it doesn't really matter how good you make the monster AI, it doesn't matter how many dungeons you create, it's a predictable endless loop of pointlessness. Better gear for killing more monsters? How lame.
Now, if there is an incentive there to drive better and better PvP, the competitiveness of hunting a truly worthy opponent, another human who has worked hard on his gear and his skills to beat you in the arena, now that is something worth playing for.
Absolutely 100% agree with the OP, Esports is the single most amazing thing in the world of gaming, we want and need this from you blizzard, don't let us down.
Then Diablo 3 isn't for you. The series has never emphasized on PVP and the only reason PVP really lasted in diablo 2 was due to the fact that, the PVE fun item hunt became pointless due to mass dupes, mass bots. Which made getting items rediculiously easy therefore you could have whatever build you wanted in a day and in most cases a level 90+ character. (You can deny it all you want, but it's the truth). The key word is it became "convienient" the PVE aspect of the game was very little needed to enjoy the addition of PVP because of the above mentioned problem.
I have strong hopes that diablo 3 will not be like this, new battle.net system (stronger hacks/exploit monitoring) on blizzards side anyway. With any luck the fun item hunt/dungeon crawler/hack and slash will stay good for many years to come, and keep the "addition" of PVP going aswell as the PVE.
Atleast thats my opinion. (btw I don't hate PVP, I just don't agree that's what diablo is about)
i just play for the sheer excitement of the campaign and item hunting,
i dont hate pvp, i just dont need to prove to someone that im better than them is all.
all i see pvp good for is a good tatic in stress relief from an annoying day at work
so instead of punching your boss in the face and getting fired for it, im taking
it out on people in game or something of that nature. however i do agree with one
of the posts above me that trying to change someones mind renders useless. cause
youll do the same as me, get home install game , play how you wanna play. the end. :Thumbs Up:
i want streaming hardcore pvp tournaments... badly. im firmly in the pve camp overall, but i'm also definitely looking forward to pvp when i need a break from seeing the same places over and over again. pvp never really gets boring because the game's AI can't compete with a motivated human.
The reason i don't care for PvP is that it does not drive the content, and in turn is a waste of dev's time. If you want PvP go play a PvP game like MW3.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"There comes a time, thief, when the jewels cease to sparkle, gold looses it's luster, and the throne room becomes a prison" -King Osric
im glad they axed pvp until after realease becuse truthfully pvp has nothing to do with diablo it became popular because of the lore and the hack and slash and the feeling of teaming up with your friends to kill monsters i never once thought to myself man i wish they had pvp in diablo
Diablo was always a PVE game. Kinda think that the reason why diablo was delayed this far back is because of the pvp system, but hey I could be wrong. When arena was introduce to WoW, a lot of pve'rs had to change their rotation because a lot of pvp'rs were complaining that Rogues are op, hunters, mages, etc. and what did they do, they nerfed them effecting pve'rs. I can see it now in a pvp perspective and history will repeat itself, Barbs are too op, not fair nerf them, blah, blah blah. And what happens, blizzard will nerfed them and Pve'rs will be upset because of the change. I can understand you want to pvp, but you got to realise that Diablo and Diablo 2 were Action RPG pve (in diablo 2, pvp wasn't implemented but people found a way, cuz i use to do it, but still liked to pve).
Personally, I dont really care either or if PvP is supported or not in D3. Probably not going to play it anyway. Diablo, to me, has always been about the monster slaying, and that's all I'm really looking for in D3.
In the light of how WoW arena was done (And what a joke it was), I dont think it's very wise of Blizzard to venture out on a new attempt of making an "eSport" segment in a PvE game. Because let's face it, that's what Diablo genre is really about, same as WoW.
Blizzard has proven time and time again with Wow that balancing so many classes and skills doesn't work very well. And with the addition of expansions it's just gonna get more out of hand.
If I want competition in a relatively balanced environment I'll play Sc2 or DotA2.
The occasional skirmish is all in good fun of course, but I don't really see the need for a Arena system in Diablo3. At least it wont be like WoW Arena where you get gear and stuff, it's just going to be for bragging rights in a rock-paper-scissor setting.
I personally have always been a PvP fanboy of any game that I play. However you have to take into consideration the framework of the game being discussed. While PvP being dominant in a game like Diablo 3 would absolutely amazing to have happen, a Lamborghini with my name on it appearing in my driveway would also be cool.
But like the Lamborghini, it will not happen because PvP has never had a foothold in this franchise. It's something the players turned to in order to keep the mood alive in the game. Diablo 3 is going to be exponentially larger than D1/D2/LoD combined. There is going to be a lot of content to clear, and honestly by the looks of it PvP will be much more enjoyable than in the previous games. It's just that PvE will still be dominant in this game, PvP won't be dead by any means, just won't be as important
To all the players of Diablo who say "Diablo has always been about the pve" - You don't know squat. It's true. Just because you're in your isolated Diablo 2 LOD private games farming meph/baal/pindle all day long doesn't make it a pve game...it just makes you ignorant for thinking that. When I played diablo 2, I played hardcore mode. Yes I grinded gear, but I grinded gear so that I can have duels IN HARDCORE MODE. I'm not making that statement because I'm saying "LOL I"M BETTER THAN YOU". I'm saying that because there was a dimension to the game that 95% of the players don't know about (most are scared to try hc...seriously)
When the rest of Diablo 2 was plagued with duped items, speed hacks, ebayed accounts, ebayed items, hardcore was not, and there were plenty of pvp going around. If you're still not convinced, at least look at the ladder system of Diablo. When the new seasons of the ladder opened up, players were playing non-stop trying to level and grind through the same pve contents over and over...not just because they liked pve (a lot didn't) but because they wanted to beat other players in the ladder for top level spots. Guess what, that is pvp. If you have never been into the competitive gaming scene, you just simply wouldn't understand. And even though the pvpers might be a minority, pvpers' passion will never lose to those into pve. And as I have said in my other post, it's the passion that keeps the game alive.
note: also see counterstrike 1.6. If you didn't like 1.6, you probably sucked or didn't play it competitively...just saying
To all the players of Diablo who say "Diablo has always been about the pve" - You don't know squat. It's true. Just because you're in your isolated Diablo 2 LOD private games farming meph/baal/pindle all day long doesn't make it a pve game...it just makes you ignorant for thinking that. When I played diablo 2, I played hardcore mode. Yes I grinded gear, but I grinded gear so that I can have duels IN HARDCORE MODE. I'm not making that statement because I'm saying "LOL I"M BETTER THAN YOU". I'm saying that because there was a dimension to the game that 95% of the players don't know about (most are scared to try hc...seriously)
When the rest of Diablo 2 was plagued with duped items, speed hacks, ebayed accounts, ebayed items, hardcore was not, and there were plenty of pvp going around. If you're still not convinced, at least look at the ladder system of Diablo. When the new seasons of the ladder opened up, players were playing non-stop trying to level and grind through the same pve contents over and over...not just because they liked pve (a lot didn't) but because they wanted to beat other players in the ladder for top level spots. Guess what, that is pvp. If you have never been into the competitive gaming scene, you just simply wouldn't understand. And even though the pvpers might be a minority, pvpers' passion will never lose to those into pve. And as I have said in my other post, it's the passion that keeps the game alive.
note: also see counterstrike 1.6. If you didn't like 1.6, you probably sucked or didn't play it competitively...just saying
I don't think anyone here is saying that PvP didn't exist in Diablo. What they are saying is that PvP has never been an official focus for any of the Diablo games. The Diablo series is not about gearing up to kill people in competitive PvP. Some might play Diablo for it, but they are doing so unsupported. Diablo 3 has always been a single player game, that you can play with others. The whole point of every Diablo game is to destroy the minions of hell to save the world. Expecting otherwise is just silly.
PvP will exist in a more supported way then it has ever existed in previous Diablo games. It isn't however going to be the driving focus of the game. No, the focus of Diablo 3 is and will still be playing a single player ARPG with or without other people. I for one am glad that this is the case as that's what I want out of Diablo 3. I want an awesome story that I can play through multiple times and still enjoy it. I want possible content updates that let me get new quests and dungeons as the years progress. I don't really want a PvP dominated game were PvP balanced ends up dictating how abilities/items can work for fear of unbalancing PvP. This.. is what Diablo is.. and this is what you're buying. If you don't like that, perhaps you shouldn't purchase it.
For example. When The Burning Crusade for WoW came out, the arena following was HUGE. A lot of general pvp demographic knew the top players and the top teams by name. In the Blizzcon 2008 tournaments there was just as many people watching the 3v3 arena matches as there are people watching the Starcraft/WC3 matches. So what about Blizzcon 2011? You guessed it, small turn-out indeed. WoW still has a tremendous amount of players. But the players are just zombies in that game now. Sure there are die hard PvE guilds with die hard PvE players who only log on during raid hours, but come on, there's a reason why the game is slowly dying despite the creative innovations implemented in the PvE encounters.... BECAUSE THERE IS NO HYPE. There is no venue platform where die hard fans are screaming at the top of their lungs, chanting for their team. PvE brings excitement to an individual, not as a group.
So I ask, please don't turn D3 into a game that's only surviving because of numerous expansions. And please let it survive because of the passion that the players have for the game.
TL;DR: PvP eSports is the way to go; just as watching an NFL game is better than watching people playing Madden against AI's.
Ok who am I kidding, it's gonna be unbalanced as fuck.
and it should be.
As polls and these and other forums have proven ... in the eye of the mainstream diablo fan ...
PvE > PVP
I completely agree that WoW is and was unbalanced. But there was a time where it was close to being balanced and at that time new balancing changes were implemented in every patch, big or small. Nowadays I barely see a PvP change in an entire patch.
And yes you're right that d3 is most likely going to be unbalanced, but if Blizz cares enough to try to balance it like in TBC of WoW, then the fans will care.
I really don't want to turn this into a pve vs. pvp debate because I know you're not going to listen to what I have to say and I also know you don't have anything infallible/circumstantial that will change my mind about pve.
Fighting monsters is boring and repetitive, it doesn't really matter how good you make the monster AI, it doesn't matter how many dungeons you create, it's a predictable endless loop of pointlessness. Better gear for killing more monsters? How lame.
Now, if there is an incentive there to drive better and better PvP, the competitiveness of hunting a truly worthy opponent, another human who has worked hard on his gear and his skills to beat you in the arena, now that is something worth playing for.
Absolutely 100% agree with the OP, Esports is the single most amazing thing in the world of gaming, we want and need this from you blizzard, don't let us down.
Ah... the countless hours I spent with my Hammerdin in front of the bridge of Act 1 - fighting spinning Barbs and Amazons with duped items! Those were the times...and to be honest I didn't see that many people complaining.
So I ask you a question you "PVE IS THE BEST! DEATH TO PVP IN D3"- type of guys - Are you afraid of the competition? Why does PvP bother you when you have your PvE boss? I mean, nobody is going to pressure you to play PvP anyways.
So keep your damn childish opinions to yourself!
Diablo 3 could easly be a top PvP and PvE game. Making PvP better does not equal making PvE worse try to understand that...
And how is farming AI more fun then fighting real thinking people?
The only reason most games survive for years and years after release is because of a competitive PvP community.
Then Diablo 3 isn't for you. The series has never emphasized on PVP and the only reason PVP really lasted in diablo 2 was due to the fact that, the PVE fun item hunt became pointless due to mass dupes, mass bots. Which made getting items rediculiously easy therefore you could have whatever build you wanted in a day and in most cases a level 90+ character. (You can deny it all you want, but it's the truth). The key word is it became "convienient" the PVE aspect of the game was very little needed to enjoy the addition of PVP because of the above mentioned problem.
I have strong hopes that diablo 3 will not be like this, new battle.net system (stronger hacks/exploit monitoring) on blizzards side anyway. With any luck the fun item hunt/dungeon crawler/hack and slash will stay good for many years to come, and keep the "addition" of PVP going aswell as the PVE.
Atleast thats my opinion. (btw I don't hate PVP, I just don't agree that's what diablo is about)
i dont hate pvp, i just dont need to prove to someone that im better than them is all.
all i see pvp good for is a good tatic in stress relief from an annoying day at work
so instead of punching your boss in the face and getting fired for it, im taking
it out on people in game or something of that nature. however i do agree with one
of the posts above me that trying to change someones mind renders useless. cause
youll do the same as me, get home install game , play how you wanna play. the end. :Thumbs Up:
In the light of how WoW arena was done (And what a joke it was), I dont think it's very wise of Blizzard to venture out on a new attempt of making an "eSport" segment in a PvE game. Because let's face it, that's what Diablo genre is really about, same as WoW.
Blizzard has proven time and time again with Wow that balancing so many classes and skills doesn't work very well. And with the addition of expansions it's just gonna get more out of hand.
If I want competition in a relatively balanced environment I'll play Sc2 or DotA2.
The occasional skirmish is all in good fun of course, but I don't really see the need for a Arena system in Diablo3. At least it wont be like WoW Arena where you get gear and stuff, it's just going to be for bragging rights in a rock-paper-scissor setting.
But like the Lamborghini, it will not happen because PvP has never had a foothold in this franchise. It's something the players turned to in order to keep the mood alive in the game. Diablo 3 is going to be exponentially larger than D1/D2/LoD combined. There is going to be a lot of content to clear, and honestly by the looks of it PvP will be much more enjoyable than in the previous games. It's just that PvE will still be dominant in this game, PvP won't be dead by any means, just won't be as important
When the rest of Diablo 2 was plagued with duped items, speed hacks, ebayed accounts, ebayed items, hardcore was not, and there were plenty of pvp going around. If you're still not convinced, at least look at the ladder system of Diablo. When the new seasons of the ladder opened up, players were playing non-stop trying to level and grind through the same pve contents over and over...not just because they liked pve (a lot didn't) but because they wanted to beat other players in the ladder for top level spots. Guess what, that is pvp. If you have never been into the competitive gaming scene, you just simply wouldn't understand. And even though the pvpers might be a minority, pvpers' passion will never lose to those into pve. And as I have said in my other post, it's the passion that keeps the game alive.
note: also see counterstrike 1.6. If you didn't like 1.6, you probably sucked or didn't play it competitively...just saying
I don't think anyone here is saying that PvP didn't exist in Diablo. What they are saying is that PvP has never been an official focus for any of the Diablo games. The Diablo series is not about gearing up to kill people in competitive PvP. Some might play Diablo for it, but they are doing so unsupported. Diablo 3 has always been a single player game, that you can play with others. The whole point of every Diablo game is to destroy the minions of hell to save the world. Expecting otherwise is just silly.
PvP will exist in a more supported way then it has ever existed in previous Diablo games. It isn't however going to be the driving focus of the game. No, the focus of Diablo 3 is and will still be playing a single player ARPG with or without other people. I for one am glad that this is the case as that's what I want out of Diablo 3. I want an awesome story that I can play through multiple times and still enjoy it. I want possible content updates that let me get new quests and dungeons as the years progress. I don't really want a PvP dominated game were PvP balanced ends up dictating how abilities/items can work for fear of unbalancing PvP. This.. is what Diablo is.. and this is what you're buying. If you don't like that, perhaps you shouldn't purchase it.