It is a bummer that games are being led by the PvE kids. I don't understand why the game cant be balanced separately, for both PvE and PvP. The lack of attention to PvP just seems like laziness.
If you think this is an easy task, you should work in gaming, since to my knowledge no design team has ever done it successfully.
That's obviously because they are just too lazy. I mean it's not like if they make a better game they will end up having more sales or something.
I am just suggesting they have separate stats for skills/classes inside/outside of the arena. Not to have some golden formula that works perfectly in both. PvP can only be done in the arena, so I still don't see how this can be such an issue.
I am just suggesting they have separate stats for skills/classes inside/outside of the arena. Not to have some golden formula that works perfectly in both. PvP can only be done in the arena, so I still don't see how this can be such an issue.
Right, they just have to basically design and balance two games instead of one. It's not any extra work at all.
It amazes me that the topic creator manages to decide why people still play D2, all on his own accord, and uses this to argue that D3 should focus more on PvP.
Randomization is in my opinion the far biggest reason why people still play D2, simply put, you can always find better gear. There's always something you can do, try getting a character to 99, it's insane. Not to mention trading, with such a messy trading system as that which currently exists in D2, it's rather easy to increase your wealth by trading, seeing as it's always possibly to buy low and sell high.
PvP is just a fraction of the game, I'm not saying it's not fun, but it's not the entire game. Nor will it be in D3, D3 focuses solely on PvE, it's a story, based on lore, which is why there have been people playing the franchise for over 10 years, it's a damn good story. PvP is just added in D3 to give people something to do for fun, it's not supposed to be an e-sport, and if that hurts your feelings, then you should really find a different game.
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"The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep." Robert Frost, 1923
It amazes me that the topic creator manages to decide why people still play D2, all on his own accord, and uses this to argue that D3 should focus more on PvP.
Randomization is in my opinion the far biggest reason why people still play D2, simply put, you can always find better gear. There's always something you can do, try getting a character to 99, it's insane. Not to mention trading, with such a messy trading system as that which currently exists in D2, it's rather easy to increase your wealth by trading, seeing as it's always possibly to buy low and sell high.
PvP is just a fraction of the game, I'm not saying it's not fun, but it's not the entire game. Nor will it be in D3, D3 focuses solely on PvE, it's a story, based on lore, which is why there have been people playing the franchise for over 10 years, it's a damn good story. PvP is just added in D3 to give people something to do for fun, it's not supposed to be an e-sport, and if that hurts your feelings, then you should really find a different game.
First of all I didn't make the original post, I made the poll, the author of the post does make some assumptions which I do not entirely agree with... I just think having options is always good. Lore or not when u do it 100 times you won't care about it anymore, unless they keep adding content which doesn't seem likely cause it is D3 not WoW.
The way Blizzard is talking about Diablo 3 pvp is rubbing me the wrong way... It's like.. "Sure we want Diablo 3 to have PvP but hell no we won't do anything to support balancing it... get over it."
It feels like they are adding a feature just to "have it" yet not doing anything special to make it successful.
The one comment about "Omg the Barb is OP!" and blizz is like "yea he probably is"...
This kind of approach will not help make your game as successful as it can be.
The way Blizzard is talking about Diablo 3 pvp is rubbing me the wrong way... It's like.. "Sure we want Diablo 3 to have PvP but hell no we won't do anything to support balancing it... get over it."
It feels like they are adding a feature just to "have it" yet not doing anything special to make it successful.
The one comment about "Omg the Barb is OP!" and blizz is like "yea he probably is"...
This kind of approach will not help make your game as successful as it can be.
Their whole attitude makes me pretty angry.
Well when the entire game is revolved around PvE their appraoch makes perfect sense, besides it is way too impractical to try and balence everything for pvp in this approach.
Having ''plans'' to implement something doesn't mean it will happen, especially when the lead designers has such a carebear view on the game, you can argue all want aswell, I'm talking about the fact that Diablo was developed as a pve/pvp game, this is TRUE, saying that pvp is ''secundary'' as Mr. Wilson stated, is a LIE.
Btw, i lol'ed on how you think that me, not having a active D2 account is important on this matter. i´ve played this series for 13 years, i don't know how things are today, im talking on how they were back when the game was ''alive'' so to speak
So if there's a large possibility it is going to happen, why write thread after furious thread that "it isn't going to happen, fuck Blizzard"?
Is Jay Wilson saying Diablo and Diablo II were not designed with equal PvE and PvP, or is he saying Diablo III is not? From my interpretation, he isn't denying that PvP was a large part of Diablo and Diablo II, he just doesn't want it to be a large part of Diablo III. Once again, touching on the fact that these are separate games.
Lol carebear view, because they are trying enforce account security, increase character build variation and viability, make it so every player can see what's happening on the screen...what else have they done to belittle you, the player?
Also, it's spelled "secondary."
Oh, and where exactly did you read that there is a large possibility that its going to happen? Jay Wilson obviously doesn't care about pvp, for all we know, the current system is just perfect for him(hes even considering making HC duels not HC) but hey, since you're saying that is definitely happening(god knows when), then its all goooood.
And from my interpretation Jay Wilson is talking about Diablo in general, not D3 especifically, hes trying to sell it that the game was flawed before, and people are buying it, Simple as that.
Rofl, who even said anything about account, security, or builds, or the new skills system? Seriously, If you don't have anything to say, then you better don't.
.
Get real, folks, the diablo you all knew is dead, a few years ago i said right here in this forum that D3 had a pretty good chance of being blizzard first bust (i was flamed to death ofc), and what you know, its not even beta and its already looking that way.
1998 - King's Quest: Mask of Eternity - Quality Assurance
1998 - Blood II: The Chosen - Game Concept and Lead Designer
2003 - Impossible Creatures - Lead Designer and Story
2003 - Homeworld 2 - Additional Design Support
2004 - Warhammer 40k Dawn of War - Design and Story
2007 - Company of Heroes - Senior Designer
All these games are crap, except for Warhammer. Lets hope he doesn't have the same mentality like he did for his other game designing experience.
The one comment about "Omg the Barb is OP!" and blizz is like "yea he probably is"...
This kind of approach will not help make your game as successful as it can be.
Their whole attitude makes me pretty angry.
I think you have to accept that in any game where you allow a great amount of character diversity and customization it will be simply impossible to balance both PvE and PVP at the same time. The essence behind PvP is the measurement of skill and in order to truly measure once skill the playing field has to be pretty much uniform. The purer the uniformity, the more clearer the picture as to who is the best player. Customization in character and gear works directly against this principle.
Even if you could balance the game between the multitudes of possible permutations between character, build and gear for PvP, it would be pretty much impossible to balance it for PvE as well. All blizzard is doing, is recognizing this notion and stating that between that choice, they choose PvE.
Oh I completely understand that balancing it would be hard and the game is designed to fight monsters and that's fine... but that is not the excuse Jay is using. Jay obviously just doesn't like PvP and could care less about balancing it or even attempting to balance it.
The first two diablo games had a large pvp following and Blizzards cash cow game WOW also has a large following. To completely ignore making PvP meaninful and fun in Diablo 3 will only HURT the games future.
Think of how many people might not even buy Diablo 3 just because "pvp isn't balnaced and blizzard doesn't care". That could be a lot of sales slipping through their fingers.
1998 - King's Quest: Mask of Eternity - Quality Assurance
1998 - Blood II: The Chosen - Game Concept and Lead Designer
2003 - Impossible Creatures - Lead Designer and Story
2003 - Homeworld 2 - Additional Design Support
2004 - Warhammer 40k Dawn of War - Design and Story
2007 - Company of Heroes - Senior Designer
All these games are crap, except for Warhammer. Lets hope he doesn't have the same mentality like he did for his other game designing experience.
Yeah lets farm gear till our eyes explode and lets have no end game at all to play.
:/
Quote from "Conax" »
Fun Fact about Jay Wilson's experience:
1998 - King's Quest: Mask of Eternity - Quality Assurance
1998 - Blood II: The Chosen - Game Concept and Lead Designer
2003 - Impossible Creatures - Lead Designer and Story
2003 - Homeworld 2 - Additional Design Support
2004 - Warhammer 40k Dawn of War - Design and Story
2007 - Company of Heroes - Senior Designer
All these games are crap, except for Warhammer. Lets hope he doesn't have the same mentality like he did for his other game designing experience.
There has to be some reasonable middle ground between balancing for razor edge e-sport competition and maintaining a fun, enthralling, and overall respectable PvP system.
Jay Wilson's view on PvP in Diablo 3 is absolutely fanatical and if that's followed it's going to be a huge disservice to what this game could be in terms of drawing in a wider audience and providing a huge amount of replay value.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
Honestly the idea of balancing PvP for release is pretty laughable anyways. They're putting their time and effort into getting the core game right.
We probably won't know whats really 'broken' in PvP for months. This isn't like SC2 where everyone starts playing the final state from day1. Gear has such a huge effect in Diablo that we have to wait till people get the gear (and runes!) and then wait longer while people mess around with it.
For blizzard to try to seriously balance 5 classes, runes, and gear, it would take a massive investment of time and resources. I'm fine with the community being the guinea pigs on this one.
We're asking for more PvP options such as Last Man Standing. Who cares if its 100% balanced. If i dont remember it wrong Jay Wilson once said in an interview that "We can do it, we can balance it its not the problem. We just dont want it to become an e-sport".
I was just addressing the balance thing. I agree that more modes would be great.
Wilson's comment saying "we can balance it its not a problem" is complete bullshit though. You can't balance a game you just totally revamped the skill system for in a couple months.
I actually do somewhat care if it's balanced, as a former arena player with multiple gladiator titles and a rank1 title, I absolutely love competitive PvP. But also speaking as a former arena player, I'm used to things not being very balanced
PvP will be my game of choice for sure. Nothing makes a game last longer than a good PvP system. Jay Willson mentioned in an interview that "they know that people would want to turn Diablo 3 into an e-sport" even though thats not what we want:P And if the majority want it to be an e-sport then i see no reason not to give it to them. People decide themselves if they want to PvP hardcore or softcore or w-ever they want to do. Nothing is forcing them to play in a competetive way so even if LMS is in the arena, people chose themselves if they want to go pro or play casually.
D3 wont live 1/3 of D2 if there is a shitty PvP system. Its just facts and no matter what PvE content they have, it wont keep you satisfied for 10 years. PvP keeps games alive. How many players would Blizzard lose if they just removed anything and everything within PvP in WoW?
This is 100% true. If I don't get 1v1 PvP and only team PvP like Guildwars this game will last till I beat it and then it will vanish. Such an easy and simple mode to add and yet they haven't yet? Could care less about last man standing honestly, high level PvP will implement their own rules where when you die sit in the corner anyway. Would like more options tho, or just ditch the dumb arena in first place and give us duels in regular games back, instead of being so scared of the big bad pk.
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TT
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I am just suggesting they have separate stats for skills/classes inside/outside of the arena. Not to have some golden formula that works perfectly in both. PvP can only be done in the arena, so I still don't see how this can be such an issue.
Right, they just have to basically design and balance two games instead of one. It's not any extra work at all.
Randomization is in my opinion the far biggest reason why people still play D2, simply put, you can always find better gear. There's always something you can do, try getting a character to 99, it's insane. Not to mention trading, with such a messy trading system as that which currently exists in D2, it's rather easy to increase your wealth by trading, seeing as it's always possibly to buy low and sell high.
PvP is just a fraction of the game, I'm not saying it's not fun, but it's not the entire game. Nor will it be in D3, D3 focuses solely on PvE, it's a story, based on lore, which is why there have been people playing the franchise for over 10 years, it's a damn good story. PvP is just added in D3 to give people something to do for fun, it's not supposed to be an e-sport, and if that hurts your feelings, then you should really find a different game.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
Robert Frost, 1923
First of all I didn't make the original post, I made the poll, the author of the post does make some assumptions which I do not entirely agree with... I just think having options is always good. Lore or not when u do it 100 times you won't care about it anymore, unless they keep adding content which doesn't seem likely cause it is D3 not WoW.
It feels like they are adding a feature just to "have it" yet not doing anything special to make it successful.
The one comment about "Omg the Barb is OP!" and blizz is like "yea he probably is"...
This kind of approach will not help make your game as successful as it can be.
Their whole attitude makes me pretty angry.
Oh, and where exactly did you read that there is a large possibility that its going to happen? Jay Wilson obviously doesn't care about pvp, for all we know, the current system is just perfect for him(hes even considering making HC duels not HC) but hey, since you're saying that is definitely happening(god knows when), then its all goooood.
And from my interpretation Jay Wilson is talking about Diablo in general, not D3 especifically, hes trying to sell it that the game was flawed before, and people are buying it, Simple as that.
Rofl, who even said anything about account, security, or builds, or the new skills system? Seriously, If you don't have anything to say, then you better don't.
.
ps: *fixed*
1998 - King's Quest: Mask of Eternity - Quality Assurance
1998 - Blood II: The Chosen - Game Concept and Lead Designer
2003 - Impossible Creatures - Lead Designer and Story
2003 - Homeworld 2 - Additional Design Support
2004 - Warhammer 40k Dawn of War - Design and Story
2007 - Company of Heroes - Senior Designer
All these games are crap, except for Warhammer. Lets hope he doesn't have the same mentality like he did for his other game designing experience.
PvP will never be end game for me.
Oh I completely understand that balancing it would be hard and the game is designed to fight monsters and that's fine... but that is not the excuse Jay is using. Jay obviously just doesn't like PvP and could care less about balancing it or even attempting to balance it.
The first two diablo games had a large pvp following and Blizzards cash cow game WOW also has a large following. To completely ignore making PvP meaninful and fun in Diablo 3 will only HURT the games future.
Think of how many people might not even buy Diablo 3 just because "pvp isn't balnaced and blizzard doesn't care". That could be a lot of sales slipping through their fingers.
Homeworld was awsome, you're nuts man.
Awesome game that is going to blow even the naysayers away.
:/
CoH was fun.
Jay Wilson's view on PvP in Diablo 3 is absolutely fanatical and if that's followed it's going to be a huge disservice to what this game could be in terms of drawing in a wider audience and providing a huge amount of replay value.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
We probably won't know whats really 'broken' in PvP for months. This isn't like SC2 where everyone starts playing the final state from day1. Gear has such a huge effect in Diablo that we have to wait till people get the gear (and runes!) and then wait longer while people mess around with it.
For blizzard to try to seriously balance 5 classes, runes, and gear, it would take a massive investment of time and resources. I'm fine with the community being the guinea pigs on this one.
I was just addressing the balance thing. I agree that more modes would be great.
Wilson's comment saying "we can balance it its not a problem" is complete bullshit though. You can't balance a game you just totally revamped the skill system for in a couple months.
I actually do somewhat care if it's balanced, as a former arena player with multiple gladiator titles and a rank1 title, I absolutely love competitive PvP. But also speaking as a former arena player, I'm used to things not being very balanced