I've been thinking a lot about this topic lately and wanted to share some genuine concerns. Here's the video description as an overview:
No HC RMAH will yield more bots/hacks/dupes because there's a large monetary incentive for third parties to develop them. If Blizzard adds hardcore real money transactions they will protect a much larger portion of the player base. This will make third party item websites less lucrative and in turn decrease the number of bots and dupes.
This could be a major problem if not addressed and I would love feedback and opinions on it.
There is still the issue of customer service headaches at Blizzard but this can certainly be avoided. I'm sure they could add some safeguards to ensure that every player using HC RMAH understands the risks involved and that there is no reimbursement for death under any circumstances.
But can you imagine the QQ from the people dying, especially to lag, and lose their character after they spent hundreds of dollars on it?
Obviously its not worth it to stop some potential hackers.
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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
I don't understand people.. play a game thats mostly about the rich/fun item hunt and scream for HC only to buy items from other nubs who create websites and farm HC using cheats. (Provding they can with the new battle.net system, which I doubt it)
Seems if hardcore playerbase even cared about diablo they wouldn't buy items
Edit: If this does happen, the end result will be the same as D2, a game which has immense longtivity, but a screwed economy to go with it.
pretty sure if bots/hacks/dupes can be made they will be made regardless of the matter... theres profit to be had in softcore too... where players play long term and buy items without worrying they will lose them shortly after getting too excited about them.
If there was an RMAH in HC mode, the danger of bot farming will be the same if there isn't one! The real problem is that when the player dies, items bought with real money will disappear from the game. This is what blizzard prevents from happening.
Players the spend money in the HC AH are Either Stupid, Rich Or incredibly Ballsy. However, i Personally feed, if you've spend a certain $$$ amount on HCAH you shouldn't have your items taken away on death.. yes that removes the HARDCORE factor of it. But the amount of bitching that'll occur when, like said, someone dies to lag or something will be insane.
That or they can keep it as is. If you want to play hardcore, enjoy the REAL GAME, softcore is great, but its not a true diablo fan gamer style. I will play hardcore, eventually.. but i won't waste money *if implimented* or gold on the HCAH because what's the fun in playing a loot hunt game if you're going to pussy out and buy the items you're so desperately trying to find *the entire plot of the game*.
As far as hacks go, I'd like to mention something, and I could be absolutely wrong, so bear with me on this one.
In Starcraft 2, a couple weeks after the beta started we already had maphacks on the market, and they had already "hacked" the client to be played even without BNet. This transfered to when the game was released (with even more varied hacks, like Achievement-related ones, drop-hacks, etc.)
Now I am fully aware they are completely different games, and honestly I don't have enough technical knowledge on this to say it is never going to happen, but the fact that we haven't even heard about "bots" and "maphacks" (or any hacks) after so many months into the beta means something to me - namely how hard it's going to be to create these hacks (specially considering how much randomization there is in the game and how much information is fully server sided).
Random enemies, random dungeons (with the real path only known by the server), clicking to pick-up items and hp and resource management all combined (to me) means bots should be really rare, and if they ever appear they would be extremelly inneffective (at least to farm equal level monsters).
In the end, this is the kind of thing we will only know for sure once the game ships and Blizzard probably knows that too, and should it become a problem they'll try to find a way to solve it. To me, any speculation that says "no, this is 100% going to happen like this, I'm sure" is extremely biased and unfounded, at this moment.
Sorry for the wall of text don't usually do this, but I'd like to see other's thoughts into this subject and my opinion on this.
If there was an RMAH in HC mode, the danger of bot farming will be the same if there isn't one!
+1
+1, I would also add on that NO RMAH means there is less incentive to gain money. I think you are overthinking what the HC players would do. I don't believe more HC players will actually seek out ways to spend real money. HC by its nature is a risky decision, people dont aim to increase their losses with higher risk. Its like buying a lottery ticket and saying, "If I dont win, I will throw out $100 of mine"
Reason 2:
The loot system system they have in place for diablo 3 where champion/rare packs are linked with the loot of bosses (they haven't explained it, but this does exist) means a bot won't be able to follow a set script to obtain loot. Bots would be very ineffective. Not to mention I believe they said a while back they have a system where repeatedly visiting an area "nerfs" the loot in that area for you.
Reason 3:
A HC RMAH opens the door to a whole bunch of legal trouble. There have been many cases in games like Second Life where users have been able to sue the company due to some loss of an item. If HC characters died due to some faulty error in Blizzard's battlenet then they would have a ton of lawsuits on their hands
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Blizzard used to care about releasing Diablo III, then they all took an arrow in the knee...
One thing doesn't really have anything to do with the other from a technical standpoint. And D3 is doing a lot of things differently from WoW and SC2 that will make it a lot more difficult to hack/dupe/bot.
It just takes the idea out of hardcore, really. In my opinion.
I'm not really a Hardcore player, though I probably will try it in D3. But I gotta agree that having the ability to spend real money on items in HC really takes the idea out of it. It is meant for you to play how Diablo is meant to play. Use only what you find in-game to get better. Like waste your gold to buy new items, not your wallet.
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I don't always burn. But when I do, I use hellfire.
I hope they don't do it. I've just began to develop an interest in hardcore, and not being able to equip your way out of the challenge with enough money is one of the things that makes it interesting. I agree with some of the previous posters, who said if there is a way to do bots/dupes/hacks without getting caught, it will happen regardless of this decision.
Blizzard has said they will consider a hardcore rmah if there is enough demand, but it is a bad idea. If people permanently lose purchased items, because of a server glitch, network conditions, or even some bug causing a ahrdcore death, there will be serious discontent. And if you protect those items, then it's not hardcore anymore.
Don't see why the hardcore item market would be more lucritive honestly. Items would be more rare, but when it comes to accessing value, a perpetualy existing item, vs an item that will dissappear after one death?
Post is ridiculous. Rmah provides GREAT market (hundreds times bigger than any third-party sites) which stimulates dupes and bots even more. Also yeah, goldAH is better than RMAH for game experience, therefore i'm glad there's only first one for HC. Most of those who used services like d2jsp did it because there wasn't decent trade system in D2 (gold didn't mean anything, no comfortable auction-like system), mostly we needed stable currency (like fg) and we will most likely have it in D3HC.
if you want to play an online game without real money exchanges happening then you won't be playing any online games. the question is whether or not you want it to be safer and if you want blizzard to get the money instead of 3rd party sites
those are the choices
i'd like for the rmah to be present on hardcore as well. that would make the thrill of doing hc that much higher. not only would you be trying to accomplish something difficult and potentially getting a satisfying reward (not dying), but without a doubt the items have the potential to be worth more. so, you get the high risk/reward of cash on top of everything else.
the biggest thrill in d3 possible is not only clearing the game on hc, but finding that $50 item to sell on top of it
if you want to play an online game without real money exchanges happening then you won't be playing any online games. the question is whether or not you want it to be safer and if you want blizzard to get the money instead of 3rd party sites
those are the choices
i'd like for the rmah to be present on hardcore as well. that would make the thrill of doing hc that much higher. not only would you be trying to accomplish something difficult and potentially getting a satisfying reward (not dying), but without a doubt the items have the potential to be worth more. so, you get the high risk/reward of cash on top of everything else.
the biggest thrill in d3 possible is not only clearing the game on hc, but finding that $50 item to sell on top of it
Dude, are u trolling or smth?
1) ofc, no1 denies that there will be real money trading anyway. but w/o rmah only 1-5% will use 3rd party sites for that purpose, with RMAH - prolly 10-50%. due to your logic they just better allow bots too, coz anyway there will be those using them... gtfo with those ideas
2) those people from 3rd party sites will get their money anyway. just with RMAH they won't need any sites, and will sell much more items via global RMAH
3) the point about the thrill with getting an expensive item is the only one semi-valid. but i think it's still better to separate money-making stuff from such games. for a decent person with brains and consequently decent job 50$ isn't that big of a deal anyway.
As far as hacks go, I'd like to mention something, and I could be absolutely wrong, so bear with me on this one.
In Starcraft 2, a couple weeks after the beta started we already had maphacks on the market, and they had already "hacked" the client to be played even without BNet. This transfered to when the game was released (with even more varied hacks, like Achievement-related ones, drop-hacks, etc.)
Now I am fully aware they are completely different games, and honestly I don't have enough technical knowledge on this to say it is never going to happen, but the fact that we haven't even heard about "bots" and "maphacks" (or any hacks) after so many months into the beta means something to me - namely how hard it's going to be to create these hacks (specially considering how much randomization there is in the game and how much information is fully server sided).
Random enemies, random dungeons (with the real path only known by the server), clicking to pick-up items and hp and resource management all combined (to me) means bots should be really rare, and if they ever appear they would be extremelly inneffective (at least to farm equal level monsters).
In the end, this is the kind of thing we will only know for sure once the game ships and Blizzard probably knows that too, and should it become a problem they'll try to find a way to solve it. To me, any speculation that says "no, this is 100% going to happen like this, I'm sure" is extremely biased and unfounded, at this moment.
Sorry for the wall of text don't usually do this, but I'd like to see other's thoughts into this subject and my opinion on this.
I sure hope you are right!! Yes, hacks/bots have been completely scarce in D3 beta and this is a great sign. They also seem less prevalent in SC2 so security is looking pretty tight on b.net 2.0 at the moment.
My concerns are rooted in leaving such a large segment of the market (all hc players) vulnerable to the third party sites as that's where they will go for real money transactions. My thoughts are that Blizzard should go all or nothing with RMAH - either both SC & HC or none at all.
The "conspiracy" part of my argument is that having no HC RMAH will increase hacks. I think that the hardcore sector of the D3 economy will be 5-10 times (not an unreasonable estimate) more lucrative if Blizzard doesn't step in and add real money transactions. With so much money to be made, bot/dupe/hack developers can justify investing more time and money into their work. Maybe it is paranoid, but at the same time it really only take one outbreak of dupes to permanently screw up the economy.
I really appreciate this feedback everyone - I'm feeling a little bit more settled on the issue but still thinks it needs attention. Who is in favor of HC RMAH and who is opposed? Why?
As far as hacks go, I'd like to mention something, and I could be absolutely wrong, so bear with me on this one.
In Starcraft 2, a couple weeks after the beta started we already had maphacks on the market, and they had already "hacked" the client to be played even without BNet. This transfered to when the game was released (with even more varied hacks, like Achievement-related ones, drop-hacks, etc.)
Now I am fully aware they are completely different games, and honestly I don't have enough technical knowledge on this to say it is never going to happen, but the fact that we haven't even heard about "bots" and "maphacks" (or any hacks) after so many months into the beta means something to me - namely how hard it's going to be to create these hacks (specially considering how much randomization there is in the game and how much information is fully server sided).
Random enemies, random dungeons (with the real path only known by the server), clicking to pick-up items and hp and resource management all combined (to me) means bots should be really rare, and if they ever appear they would be extremelly inneffective (at least to farm equal level monsters).
In the end, this is the kind of thing we will only know for sure once the game ships and Blizzard probably knows that too, and should it become a problem they'll try to find a way to solve it. To me, any speculation that says "no, this is 100% going to happen like this, I'm sure" is extremely biased and unfounded, at this moment.
Sorry for the wall of text don't usually do this, but I'd like to see other's thoughts into this subject and my opinion on this.
I agree. There is another thing to consider as well. Look at WoW, yah I know lolz wow, but bear with me.
In WoW the bots really can't do all that much. I have never seen a bot in the world farming mobs, or what I perceived to be a bot anyways. Also the WoW environment is one that respawns on set timers, and everything about the area remains constant. The bots that do exists, only exist in pvp and they can do little more than follow random people & attack with random skills when people get close.
By contrast, in D3 the areas are randomly generated and mobs don't respawn. Also, we aren't running to bosses, so the bots would have to essentially play the whole game.
And finally who would be dumb enough to use a bot to farm Hardcore? Bots aren't exactly the best players ever, and they die quite frequently. Softcore, sure.
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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
More bots = more market competition = cheaper items = more transactions = blizzard making more cash from fees = no anti cheater effort
they will just do some banwave every X time to make people think they are fighting hackers
Cheaper items = less transactions = blizzard making less cash from fees = Heavy anti cheater effort
Fixed that for ya.
Blizzard makes money on the value the items sell for. so the fact that there is more transactions doesnt necessarily mean they make money. However, if lots of people can buy the best item cheaply due to hacks, then they wont need to buy a lot of the transitional items to build up to the best. This means less transactions, and less purchases. VERY BAD!!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
Epicurus
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Discussion/Commentary on the subject:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wb8iLlRd_M
This could be a major problem if not addressed and I would love feedback and opinions on it.
There is still the issue of customer service headaches at Blizzard but this can certainly be avoided. I'm sure they could add some safeguards to ensure that every player using HC RMAH understands the risks involved and that there is no reimbursement for death under any circumstances.
http://huntersc.tv
But can you imagine the QQ from the people dying, especially to lag, and lose their character after they spent hundreds of dollars on it?
Obviously its not worth it to stop some potential hackers.
Epicurus
Seems if hardcore playerbase even cared about diablo they wouldn't buy items
Edit: If this does happen, the end result will be the same as D2, a game which has immense longtivity, but a screwed economy to go with it.
That or they can keep it as is. If you want to play hardcore, enjoy the REAL GAME, softcore is great, but its not a true diablo fan gamer style. I will play hardcore, eventually.. but i won't waste money *if implimented* or gold on the HCAH because what's the fun in playing a loot hunt game if you're going to pussy out and buy the items you're so desperately trying to find *the entire plot of the game*.
In Starcraft 2, a couple weeks after the beta started we already had maphacks on the market, and they had already "hacked" the client to be played even without BNet. This transfered to when the game was released (with even more varied hacks, like Achievement-related ones, drop-hacks, etc.)
Now I am fully aware they are completely different games, and honestly I don't have enough technical knowledge on this to say it is never going to happen, but the fact that we haven't even heard about "bots" and "maphacks" (or any hacks) after so many months into the beta means something to me - namely how hard it's going to be to create these hacks (specially considering how much randomization there is in the game and how much information is fully server sided).
Random enemies, random dungeons (with the real path only known by the server), clicking to pick-up items and hp and resource management all combined (to me) means bots should be really rare, and if they ever appear they would be extremelly inneffective (at least to farm equal level monsters).
In the end, this is the kind of thing we will only know for sure once the game ships and Blizzard probably knows that too, and should it become a problem they'll try to find a way to solve it. To me, any speculation that says "no, this is 100% going to happen like this, I'm sure" is extremely biased and unfounded, at this moment.
Sorry for the wall of text don't usually do this, but I'd like to see other's thoughts into this subject and my opinion on this.
Reason 1:
+1, I would also add on that NO RMAH means there is less incentive to gain money. I think you are overthinking what the HC players would do. I don't believe more HC players will actually seek out ways to spend real money. HC by its nature is a risky decision, people dont aim to increase their losses with higher risk. Its like buying a lottery ticket and saying, "If I dont win, I will throw out $100 of mine"
Reason 2:
The loot system system they have in place for diablo 3 where champion/rare packs are linked with the loot of bosses (they haven't explained it, but this does exist) means a bot won't be able to follow a set script to obtain loot. Bots would be very ineffective. Not to mention I believe they said a while back they have a system where repeatedly visiting an area "nerfs" the loot in that area for you.
Reason 3:
A HC RMAH opens the door to a whole bunch of legal trouble. There have been many cases in games like Second Life where users have been able to sue the company due to some loss of an item. If HC characters died due to some faulty error in Blizzard's battlenet then they would have a ton of lawsuits on their hands
Strap on your tinfoil hats folks, we're going for a conspiracy ride.
Blizzard has said they will consider a hardcore rmah if there is enough demand, but it is a bad idea. If people permanently lose purchased items, because of a server glitch, network conditions, or even some bug causing a ahrdcore death, there will be serious discontent. And if you protect those items, then it's not hardcore anymore.
Don't see why the hardcore item market would be more lucritive honestly. Items would be more rare, but when it comes to accessing value, a perpetualy existing item, vs an item that will dissappear after one death?
those are the choices
i'd like for the rmah to be present on hardcore as well. that would make the thrill of doing hc that much higher. not only would you be trying to accomplish something difficult and potentially getting a satisfying reward (not dying), but without a doubt the items have the potential to be worth more. so, you get the high risk/reward of cash on top of everything else.
the biggest thrill in d3 possible is not only clearing the game on hc, but finding that $50 item to sell on top of it
1) ofc, no1 denies that there will be real money trading anyway. but w/o rmah only 1-5% will use 3rd party sites for that purpose, with RMAH - prolly 10-50%. due to your logic they just better allow bots too, coz anyway there will be those using them... gtfo with those ideas
2) those people from 3rd party sites will get their money anyway. just with RMAH they won't need any sites, and will sell much more items via global RMAH
3) the point about the thrill with getting an expensive item is the only one semi-valid. but i think it's still better to separate money-making stuff from such games. for a decent person with brains and consequently decent job 50$ isn't that big of a deal anyway.
Signature by Aranoch
I sure hope you are right!! Yes, hacks/bots have been completely scarce in D3 beta and this is a great sign. They also seem less prevalent in SC2 so security is looking pretty tight on b.net 2.0 at the moment.
My concerns are rooted in leaving such a large segment of the market (all hc players) vulnerable to the third party sites as that's where they will go for real money transactions. My thoughts are that Blizzard should go all or nothing with RMAH - either both SC & HC or none at all.
The "conspiracy" part of my argument is that having no HC RMAH will increase hacks. I think that the hardcore sector of the D3 economy will be 5-10 times (not an unreasonable estimate) more lucrative if Blizzard doesn't step in and add real money transactions. With so much money to be made, bot/dupe/hack developers can justify investing more time and money into their work. Maybe it is paranoid, but at the same time it really only take one outbreak of dupes to permanently screw up the economy.
I really appreciate this feedback everyone - I'm feeling a little bit more settled on the issue but still thinks it needs attention. Who is in favor of HC RMAH and who is opposed? Why?
http://huntersc.tv
I agree. There is another thing to consider as well. Look at WoW, yah I know lolz wow, but bear with me.
In WoW the bots really can't do all that much. I have never seen a bot in the world farming mobs, or what I perceived to be a bot anyways. Also the WoW environment is one that respawns on set timers, and everything about the area remains constant. The bots that do exists, only exist in pvp and they can do little more than follow random people & attack with random skills when people get close.
By contrast, in D3 the areas are randomly generated and mobs don't respawn. Also, we aren't running to bosses, so the bots would have to essentially play the whole game.
And finally who would be dumb enough to use a bot to farm Hardcore? Bots aren't exactly the best players ever, and they die quite frequently. Softcore, sure.
Epicurus
Fixed that for ya.
Blizzard makes money on the value the items sell for. so the fact that there is more transactions doesnt necessarily mean they make money. However, if lots of people can buy the best item cheaply due to hacks, then they wont need to buy a lot of the transitional items to build up to the best. This means less transactions, and less purchases. VERY BAD!!
Epicurus