Our selection of active skills and runes is ALL WE HAVE to make our character the way we want. They removed attribute points and skill trees and gave us active skills and runes instead. Runes are just not like other items. They're dropped like other items, but they're not just gear, they can radically alter the functionality of your skills. Not having the right color rune for your skill means your build doesn't work. That's not fun randomization, that's frustrating randomization.
I'm fine with SOME randomization on runes. Like maybe I don't get enough crimson drops, that's randomization I can deal with. I'm ok with putting a crimson rune into Frenzy and having a random affix pop up: "+2 to light radius" Ok, that's a crap affix, but at least my skill works the way it's supposed to. I can still have fun finding another crimson rune and trying again for a better affix.
But again, if you already have a Tier 6 rune in the skill, a Tier 7 rune of the same color is a marginal improvement. A Tier 1 rune will make your skill work the way you want it to. Each rune after that improved it only marginally.
So going from Hell to Inferno, it would actually be better to get one of the unique/set inferno items than the tier 7 rune you're looking for. Especially if you're only interested in DPS increase.
I'm glad to see a few people have made clear that most of this stuff isn't confirmed. So a couple of thoughts along those lines..
First, as with many of you here, I think the only way this "unattuned" system would work is if unattuned runes dropped in addition to colored runes. Your entire build being subject to constant /roll is beyond frustrating.. it's a showstopper. I'm around 98% (+/- 2%) sure that Blizzard knows this.
Second, let's assume both unattuned and colored runes drop. I think unattuned runes should be vastly superior to colored runes. What I mean by vastly is open to interpretation, but in general, they should be highly coveted. That's the only way I see the addition of unattuned runes moving beyond the simply annoying mechanic of D2 charms, and actually becoming a feature that increases replay value and fun factor.
In my opinion, games in general need to be difficult and frustrating. You shouldn't be getting your loot-based dopamine reward very often, else the game loses appeal quickly. I want to really have to WORK on my character to make him strong. When a level 7 unattuned rune drops, I want to be STOKED. When I pop it into the skill, and THIS time it FINALLY tunes exactly as needed, I want to poop my pants. Is that too much to ask? Pooping my pants?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions."
-Thomas Jefferson
I'm glad to see a few people have made clear that most of this stuff isn't confirmed. So a couple of thoughts along those lines..
First, as with many of you here, I think the only way this "unattuned" system would work is if unattuned runes dropped in addition to colored runes. Your entire build being subject to constant /roll is beyond frustrating.. it's a showstopper. I'm around 98% (+/- 2%) sure that Blizzard knows this.
Second, let's assume both unattuned and colored runes drop. I think unattuned runes should be vastly superior to colored runes. What I mean by vastly is open to interpretation, but in general, they should be highly coveted. That's the only way I see the addition of unattuned runes moving beyond the simply annoying mechanic of D2 charms, and actually becoming a feature that increases replay value and fun factor.
In my opinion, games in general need to be difficult and frustrating. You shouldn't be getting your loot-based dopamine reward very often, else the game loses appeal quickly. I want to really have to WORK on my character to make him strong. When a level 7 unattuned rune drops, I want to be STOKED. When I pop it into the skill, and THIS time it FINALLY tunes exactly as needed, I want to poop my pants. Is that too much to ask? Pooping my pants?
The attuned runes on good skills with good stats would be extraordinarily rare and in high demand. Thus their value would skyrocket. That could be a problem, especially for casuals.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
One is never hurt by being given additional choices, only by taking them away. A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
But again, if you already have a Tier 6 rune in the skill, a Tier 7 rune of the same color is a marginal improvement. A Tier 1 rune will make your skill work the way you want it to. Each rune after that improved it only marginally.
So going from Hell to Inferno, it would actually be better to get one of the unique/set inferno items than the tier 7 rune you're looking for. Especially if you're only interested in DPS increase.
This isn't just a Tier 7 rune issue. You're not going to be swimming in runes at all. Tier 1 runes might be pretty common drops. That gives players the ability to play around with an effect to see if they even want the higher level runes of that color. But Tier 2 will be rarer, Tier 3 rarer, Tier 4 rarer, Tier 5 rarer, Tier 6 rarer, and Tier 7 rarer.
I wouldn't be surprised if you get through Hell with only seeing one or two Tier 6 runes total and maybe 3-4 Tier 5s. On average, that would give you one skill with a level 5 or 6 rune, and the rest still sub 4. It just makes a rather essential part of character customization random and frustrating. I think higher level rune drops will be rare enough that it will be exciting to get one, to not have to bother with the additional dice roll 20% shot at what you want.
To me, it all comes down to how runes are used. Runes are a part of your character's build, not a simple piece of gear. A player should have a reasonable ability to choose their build without randomness.
In my opinion, games in general need to be difficult and frustrating.
You want your GAMES to be difficult and frustrating? I want my games to be fun. Challenging, sure. Frustrating? I guess I don't see the value in that.
This isn't just a Tier 7 rune issue. You're not going to be swimming in runes at all. Tier 1 runes might be pretty common drops. That gives players the ability to play around with an effect to see if they even want the higher level runes of that color. But Tier 2 will be rarer, Tier 3 rarer, Tier 4 rarer, Tier 5 rarer, Tier 6 rarer, and Tier 7 rarer.
I wouldn't be surprised if you get through Hell with only seeing one or two Tier 6 runes total and maybe 3-4 Tier 5s. On average, that would give you one skill with a level 5 or 6 rune, and the rest still sub 4. It just makes a rather essential part of character customization random and frustrating. I think higher level rune drops will be rare enough that it will be exciting to get one, to not have to bother with the additional dice roll 20% shot at what you want.
To me, it all comes down to how runes are used. Runes are a part of your character's build, not a simple piece of gear. A player should have a reasonable ability to choose their build without randomness.
You don't seriously think we get through Hell once and expect to be good on lvl 5-6 runes do you? You talk about equipment as a simple piece of gear? Are you serious?
Better equipment is king in Diablo. And Runes are just another item to collect. And if you don't like the unassigned rune idea, just farm gold and get one on the AH. If they are bound to skills then you can bet it will be on the AH.
Random drops and countless runs are the hallmark of Diablo. That's why its so important that gameplay is fun, because you'll be doing it over and over and over. Level 1 & 2 runes will be very plentiful, so socket all your skills with them. Then start on level 3 & 4. If you find Nightmare mode or Hell mode too tough, its time to constantly farm for better equipment (inc runes) on a lower level), and/or join co-op games.
With enough farming, lots of luck and playing the AH, you'll eventually be decently geared. But unless you're willing to spend A LOT of time in D3, don't expect to get all the uniques or level 7 runes you are expecting. Do you think everyone who wanted a Windforce in D2 got it? Heck I've played Diablo 2 a lot and I've only every found a Stone of Jordan twice.
This isn't just a Tier 7 rune issue. You're not going to be swimming in runes at all. Tier 1 runes might be pretty common drops. That gives players the ability to play around with an effect to see if they even want the higher level runes of that color. But Tier 2 will be rarer, Tier 3 rarer, Tier 4 rarer, Tier 5 rarer, Tier 6 rarer, and Tier 7 rarer.
I wouldn't be surprised if you get through Hell with only seeing one or two Tier 6 runes total and maybe 3-4 Tier 5s. On average, that would give you one skill with a level 5 or 6 rune, and the rest still sub 4. It just makes a rather essential part of character customization random and frustrating. I think higher level rune drops will be rare enough that it will be exciting to get one, to not have to bother with the additional dice roll 20% shot at what you want.
To me, it all comes down to how runes are used. Runes are a part of your character's build, not a simple piece of gear. A player should have a reasonable ability to choose their build without randomness.
You don't seriously think we get through Hell once and expect to be good on lvl 5-6 runes do you? You talk about equipment as a simple piece of gear? Are you serious?
Better equipment is king in Diablo. And Runes are just another item to collect. And if you don't like the unassigned rune idea, just farm gold and get one on the AH. If they are bound to skills then you can bet it will be on the AH.
Random drops and countless runs are the hallmark of Diablo. That's why its so important that gameplay is fun, because you'll be doing it over and over and over. Level 1 & 2 runes will be very plentiful, so socket all your skills with them. Then start on level 3 & 4. If you find Nightmare mode or Hell mode too tough, its time to constantly farm for better equipment (inc runes) on a lower level), and/or join co-op games.
With enough farming, lots of luck and playing the AH, you'll eventually be decently geared. But unless you're willing to spend A LOT of time in D3, don't expect to get all the uniques or level 7 runes you are expecting. Do you think everyone who wanted a Windforce in D2 got it? Heck I've played Diablo 2 a lot and I've only every found a Stone of Jordan twice.
Idk, Rank 7 runes shouldnt be as rare as you two think. Especially if they allow attuned and unattuned runes to drop. If rank 7 runes are ridiculously hard to get, then Rank7 unattuned runes attuned to good skills w/ good stats are going to be damn near impossible to get.
If your chances to get any rune is Rare, then your chance to get an unattuned rune is 1/6 of that, and you chance to attune it to the skill you want is 1/5, and then after you have to calculate the chance of getting good stats. Add all that together and getting a good rune attacked to a good skill with good stats would be like winning the lotto.
You want your GAMES to be difficult and frustrating? I want my games to be fun. Challenging, sure. Frustrating? I guess I don't see the value in that.
Yeah frustrating isn't the right word, good catch. I meant challenging.
The point is, if an activity is not challenging, there isn't much intrinsic value in that activity.
Most of the games I play these days are like walking. Everyone can do it, and you don't need any expertise. I don't want D3 to be like a marathon, but maybe more like a 10k. You have to train for it, work at it, but it's not freak-show hard.
As it turns out, randomness and rarity are a big part of what gives D3 an expertise curve.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions."
-Thomas Jefferson
As many others have said we still dont have any specific details on this, and i trust Blizzard to make it a fun way to develope your character, not a frustrating one.
There is a difference in what people in here want runes to be. Some people see runes as another item to farm for, equal to gear. Others see it as a way to customize their character - To find the most fun playstyle that suits them.
My only concern is feeling gimped, maybe even have to change my playstyle, because i got unlucky with the runes. Luck should not decide the way you play the game. I like farming for items that makes me better at what i do. I dont like farming runes just so i can keep playing the way i like the most, or even changing my build so i can keep farming for those runes i need. Its as much about the ride as it is about reaching the end of the game item wise.
My point is that this is something you shouldnt have to worry about. The runes are basicly replacement for the skills in D2. Not playing the way i want to there, because i was unlucky, would certainly make it less fun.
Now there are a few things that may help you get the runes you need. The AH first and foremost. But you cant know for sure how that works out until its live and well into the game. There will be runes in this game that will be much more popular than others, as certain skills were in D2. Making them very rare/terribly expensive - much harder to get than other runes.
Most people might get the runes they want and need to continue their playstyle. Some people may not be that lucky.
You don't seriously think we get through Hell once and expect to be good on lvl 5-6 runes do you? You talk about equipment as a simple piece of gear? Are you serious?
Better equipment is king in Diablo. And Runes are just another item to collect. And if you don't like the unassigned rune idea, just farm gold and get one on the AH. If they are bound to skills then you can bet it will be on the AH.
Random drops and countless runs are the hallmark of Diablo. That's why its so important that gameplay is fun, because you'll be doing it over and over and over. Level 1 & 2 runes will be very plentiful, so socket all your skills with them. Then start on level 3 & 4. If you find Nightmare mode or Hell mode too tough, its time to constantly farm for better equipment (inc runes) on a lower level), and/or join co-op games.
I'm not at all expecting to be fully kitted out with one run through Hell. Certainly not. When I say simple piece of gear I mean it, though. Hycoolio said it well in the previous post, gear makes me better at what I do but it doesn't change how I play. Getting the leet sword drop doesn't mean I change how I whirlwind (or even that I use whirlwind to kill mobs). Better gear makes you better at what you do. Runes just aren't the same to me. Yes, they're items, but the way they interact with skills is just very different with the way gear interacts with skills. Gear causes your skills to do more damage or cost less or faster. Runes can alter the very nature of how you use your skills to kill enemies. That's a decision I think the player should be able to make, not one that should be made for him by the randomizer. The only customization options we have are what active skills we have and what color runes we use. Taking away our freedom of choice on rune color is a bit much.
Yeah frustrating isn't the right word, good catch. I meant challenging.
The point is, if an activity is not challenging, there isn't much intrinsic value in that activity.
Most of the games I play these days are like walking. Everyone can do it, and you don't need any expertise. I don't want D3 to be like a marathon, but maybe more like a 10k. You have to train for it, work at it, but it's not freak-show hard.
As it turns out, randomness and rarity are a big part of what gives D3 an expertise curve.
See, randomizing rune color on rune placement doesn't make the game more challenging to me. It just makes it more frustrating and tedious. You're not a better player because your rune rolled the color you wanted. It's just luck. The challenge from Diablo comes from making good decisions. Choosing the right skill and rune combinations along with tactics during battle.
I am totally fine with Tier 7 runes being very rare things. I'm also fine with affixes on the runes being random so that there's a potential for better runes out there to further improve your character. The color of a rune, though, is something I want to be able to make a decision about. I think that it feels bad to not be able to play your character how you want because of bad luck. Bad luck on gear drops means you might not be as strong as you'd like, but bad luck on rune rolls means you can't play the way you want at all, and that's not fun.
I don't know, maybe it's not even worth discussing further since we're all just making assumptions about how the system might or might not work. I know what I'd like the system to look like, I suppose we'll have to wait and see what Blizzard's actual plan is. I do trust that if whatever system they have is frustrating, it will be changed to something else. Runes have come a long way from their original design already. Hell, every game system has been through multiple versions. I'm sure some people still would prefer a skill system with skill points and trees, too.
See, randomizing rune color on rune placement doesn't make the game more challenging to me. It just makes it more frustrating and tedious. You're not a better player because your rune rolled the color you wanted. It's just luck. The challenge from Diablo comes from making good decisions. Choosing the right skill and rune combinations along with tactics during battle.
I'm with you to a point.. but being a skilled player isn't the only thing that should be rewarded in gaming. Time investment should also be rewarded, and having the best things in the game being exceptionally rare is simply a reward for time investment.
You say it's "just luck" but it's not. If something only drops 1 out of every 1 million mobs, and you put in tons of time and kill 10 million mobs, you are 10 times more likely than the casual player who has only killed a million.
It's incentive to increase your odds, not just dumb luck. That's why I consider adding extra reward with "juiced" runes a positive gameplay element, one that will increase replay value.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions."
-Thomas Jefferson
It is also dumb luck, but so are gear drops.
The mentality of the hardcore, not survival mode, D2 players is a little insane tbh. If items are not damn near impossible to get, then the game is not hard enough. Except, most of the them didnt get said items, they cheated for them.
I am fine with items and runes being uncommon, as long as its not insanely difficult to get a good Rank7 rune w/ stats.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
One is never hurt by being given additional choices, only by taking them away. A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
I understand that many people want rewards for invested time in this game, and showing off those hard earned items. But cant you leave that to gear and gems? (Before expansion with even more similiar items to farm). Since even legendary have random affixes, and the highest level of gems will be very hard to get, it seems that there will be enough to keep us occupied for a very long time. Im also pro random affixes from runes, which will keep it fun to get new runes. Just dont random the skills i use.
I don't see it as being a problem. By the time you reach a place that can drop lvl 7 runes you're going to already have lower level runes of everything you want. So the randomness has nothing to do with messing up your skill set. It's just a minor power increase.
Dumb luck in gear drops I can accept. That just means I'm a bit weaker than I want. Dumb luck in rune rolls means I can't play my class the way I want to. That sucks way more. It's just not the same.
I think that adding random affixes to colored runes that only appear when they're socketed into a skill is the perfect level of variation. There will still be better runes out there to look for, but in the meantime you can use the build you want to play the way you want.
If you want it to take 1,000,000 kills to get one perfect rune, that can be done without unattuned runes. Unattuned or not does not impact the rarity. Colored vs. unattuned simply means that when you do get that drop, it's useful. Just like any rare drop in Diablo is useful (whether to use, sell, trade, or give to an alt).
It's not a question of rarity, it's a question of player experience. I'm of the opinion that it just sucks more to have bad luck mean you can't play your class the way you want to play it. Character strength from gear is a different level of power than character viability from rune color.
Dumb luck in gear drops I can accept. That just means I'm a bit weaker than I want. Dumb luck in rune rolls means I can't play my class the way I want to. That sucks way more. It's just not the same.
I think that adding random affixes to colored runes that only appear when they're socketed into a skill is the perfect level of variation. There will still be better runes out there to look for, but in the meantime you can use the build you want to play the way you want.
If you want it to take 1,000,000 kills to get one perfect rune, that can be done without unattuned runes. Unattuned or not does not impact the rarity. Colored vs. unattuned simply means that when you do get that drop, it's useful. Just like any rare drop in Diablo is useful (whether to use, sell, trade, or give to an alt).
It's not a question of rarity, it's a question of player experience. I'm of the opinion that it just sucks more to have bad luck mean you can't play your class the way you want to play it. Character strength from gear is a different level of power than character viability from rune color.
I agree with this 110%, unattuned runes are simply a bad idea.
Just give random stats to colored runes when you place them in skills.
Lets you use the abilities you want, while giving you the ability to change builds, and still gives you something to work towards w/o it being near impossible.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
One is never hurt by being given additional choices, only by taking them away. A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
Dumb luck in gear drops I can accept. That just means I'm a bit weaker than I want. Dumb luck in rune rolls means I can't play my class the way I want to. That sucks way more. It's just not the same.
I think that adding random affixes to colored runes that only appear when they're socketed into a skill is the perfect level of variation. There will still be better runes out there to look for, but in the meantime you can use the build you want to play the way you want.
If you want it to take 1,000,000 kills to get one perfect rune, that can be done without unattuned runes. Unattuned or not does not impact the rarity. Colored vs. unattuned simply means that when you do get that drop, it's useful. Just like any rare drop in Diablo is useful (whether to use, sell, trade, or give to an alt).
It's not a question of rarity, it's a question of player experience. I'm of the opinion that it just sucks more to have bad luck mean you can't play your class the way you want to play it. Character strength from gear is a different level of power than character viability from rune color.
I agree with this 110%, unattuned runes are simply a bad idea.
Just give random stats to colored runes when you place them in skills.
Lets you use the abilities you want, while giving you the ability to change builds, and still gives you something to work towards w/o it being near impossible.
If level 1-3 runes are common as dirt by the time you get into Nightmare then you have the ability to customize your skills the way you want to play them - the difference (from what Ive seen) between a 3 and 6 is not earth-shattering. Yes the 6 is better but if you want a specific function from you skill you will have it - and it will probably be about 80% of the power of someone who has that skill in level 6 rune - you're not crippled... its virtually identical in comparrison to someone with a very rare weapon over your "average" legendary.
I would expect to be using level 4/5 runes in my skills well in to farming hell - possibly even the entire time. Getting the proper level 7 rune into your skill should be roughly the equivalent of finding that ultimate legendary weapon with perfect prefixes/suffixes.
I don't see how having to use a more common level 4 rune in your skill is frustrating - customization to use the skill you want in the way you want is easily attainable - the last 3 (very incremental) levels of power though come at the same price of grinding and luck as always.
Jeez, why do all the haters of the current (expected) rune system ignore all the important messages? . . . . . . .
This:
I don't see it as being a problem. By the time you reach a place that can drop lvl 7 runes you're going to already have lower level runes of everything you want. So the randomness has nothing to do with messing up your skill set. It's just a minor power increase.
I'm not just talking about Tier 7 runes here. I'm talking about the entire experience while leveling up. I think it's going to be frustrating every time you find a rune, put it into a skill and fail to get something useful. You can't even give it to an alt at that point because it's locked to your skill.
This is not about optimization, it's about being able to choose how you want to build your character. It's more analogous to not receiving skills when you level up and only getting them as items.
Suppose unattuned skill rocks dropped as an item in the game. When you slot them into an active skill slot, they randomly choose a skill from your possible skillset to become, and they lock to that skill slot. Say they also have 7 levels that increase in power. That would be a super lame game mechanic, wouldn't you agree?
So you get your first skill stone, and roll a skill you don't want to use. Oh well, I guess you'll use it until you get another drop. You do, and try again. You get something else you don't want to use. Keep farming, I guess. Until you finally get the skill you want to use, and can start working on your second skill.
Here's the arguments for a system like that:
- Since it's much harder to get a skill build that you like and is effective, you'd feel more accomplished when you do it.
- It'll take much longer to get your character to become stronger, so it adds to replay value.
- Since lower power skill rocks drop fairly often, it won't take long to at least get a build you want to play. Then it's just a matter of power, similar to the item game.
Sound familiar?
It's not about items having randomization. it's not about the fact that it may take a long time to get perfect level 7 runes. It's about being able to play your character HOW you CHOOSE to play your character.
and this:
- if runes drop unattuned you have a (5 runes per skill) 1/5 chance you'll get the rune you want (without it being permanent because you can even remove it)
- if runes drop attuned you have a (5 classes, 20 skills each, 5 runes each skill = 5 x 20 x 5 = 500) 1/500 chance approximately to find the rune you want
for all the haters, please try to understand these two comments, and then reply with a good argument please . . .
This is a complete misunderstanding of the system. The first part is correct, with unattuned runes you have a 1/5 chance of getting the color you want when you place it. But the second part is way off. I'm not looking for runes to drop already attuned to a skill. I just want them to have a color. That gives me a better than 1/5 chance of it being useful because even if it's not the color I wanted for my primary skill, it's a color I can use in a different skill, or give to an alt to use in their skills. In fact it's probably 100% useful because I can do something with it. Just like gems are 100% useful when they drop because they can be crafted up into higher level gems. Just like gear is 100% useful when it drops because I can break it down into crafting components and craft something that is useful.
I think there's enough variation in affixes to make it interesting enough to search for better runes without needing to randomize the color on placement. It's a system that works fine for gear. Imagine if items became bound to class, but didn't identify until you equipped them. I've got an unidentified weapon here, I'll just put that on my Barbarian. Oh look, I got an awesome wizard staff. Too bad it's locked to my Barbarian.
Making things arbitrarily harder to obtain does not necessarily make it more interesting or fun.
Dumb luck in gear drops I can accept. That just means I'm a bit weaker than I want. Dumb luck in rune rolls means I can't play my class the way I want to. That sucks way more. It's just not the same.
I think that adding random affixes to colored runes that only appear when they're socketed into a skill is the perfect level of variation. There will still be better runes out there to look for, but in the meantime you can use the build you want to play the way you want.
If you want it to take 1,000,000 kills to get one perfect rune, that can be done without unattuned runes. Unattuned or not does not impact the rarity. Colored vs. unattuned simply means that when you do get that drop, it's useful. Just like any rare drop in Diablo is useful (whether to use, sell, trade, or give to an alt).
It's not a question of rarity, it's a question of player experience. I'm of the opinion that it just sucks more to have bad luck mean you can't play your class the way you want to play it. Character strength from gear is a different level of power than character viability from rune color.
I agree with this 110%, unattuned runes are simply a bad idea.
Just give random stats to colored runes when you place them in skills.
Lets you use the abilities you want, while giving you the ability to change builds, and still gives you something to work towards w/o it being near impossible.
If level 1-3 runes are common as dirt by the time you get into Nightmare then you have the ability to customize your skills the way you want to play them - the difference (from what Ive seen) between a 3 and 6 is not earth-shattering. Yes the 6 is better but if you want a specific function from you skill you will have it - and it will probably be about 80% of the power of someone who has that skill in level 6 rune - you're not crippled... its virtually identical in comparrison to someone with a very rare weapon over your "average" legendary.
I would expect to be using level 4/5 runes in my skills well in to farming hell - possibly even the entire time. Getting the proper level 7 rune into your skill should be roughly the equivalent of finding that ultimate legendary weapon with perfect prefixes/suffixes.
I don't see how having to use a more common level 4 rune in your skill is frustrating - customization to use the skill you want in the way you want is easily attainable - the last 3 (very incremental) levels of power though come at the same price of grinding and luck as always.
How do you know there isnt a big difference between a level 3 rune and a level 6 rune? If runepower scale accordingly to gems, for example Meteor would have 231% more weapon damage from a level 6 crimson rune than a level 3 one. As someone else said further up here, you need the best equipment to continue to harder difficulties/areas.
Since you need to random your 5 skills, some players will find their gear faster than finding the correct runes (especially with the new artisan system). Now they have a choice of continue the game with another playstyle, or stay behind and farm for the runes they so desperately need. You dont know how long thats going to take, because there is no safety net in the system to catch the really unlucky ones.
For those who want level 7 runes to be the same as legendary weapons, why not add rare and even legendary runes to please both sides.
This is a complete misunderstanding of the system. The first part is correct, with unattuned runes you have a 1/5 chance of getting the color you want when you place it. But the second part is way off. I'm not looking for runes to drop already attuned to a skill. I just want them to have a color. That gives me a better than 1/5 chance of it being useful because even if it's not the color I wanted for my primary skill, it's a color I can use in a different skill, or give to an alt to use in their skills. In fact it's probably 100% useful because I can do something with it. Just like gems are 100% useful when they drop because they can be crafted up into higher level gems. Just like gear is 100% useful when it drops because I can break it down into crafting components and craft something that is useful.
I think there's enough variation in affixes to make it interesting enough to search for better runes without needing to randomize the color on placement. It's a system that works fine for gear. Imagine if items became bound to class, but didn't identify until you equipped them. I've got an unidentified weapon here, I'll just put that on my Barbarian. Oh look, I got an awesome wizard staff. Too bad it's locked to my Barbarian.
Making things arbitrarily harder to obtain does not necessarily make it more interesting or fun.
I do understand what you're saying. But look at it from Blizzard's point of view. Even without runes, the Beta by all accounts is super fun. That's what Blizzard is going for. All builds are viable.
So you have this ultimate build that you strive for. Everyone will. But you find a higher level rune of a color not of your build. Eg. I am aiming for Indigo Magic Missle and got a Crimson one instead. You can play using this new skill. It didn't impress you at rune level 1, what about now at rune level 5, is Crimson better? And if it is, why not use it till you do find the indigo lvl 5 rune you really want?
The new system encourages experimentation and testing. Are you so dead set against all other builds except for your one true build? Also, you seem to conveniently forget about the AH (let's limit it to the gold AH). You can get the rune you want either by playing the AH or by trading if you are into that. Its not only about runes dropping for you, there will be tens of thousands of players who didn't get the rune color they wanted, best option is to sell or trade them.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
So going from Hell to Inferno, it would actually be better to get one of the unique/set inferno items than the tier 7 rune you're looking for. Especially if you're only interested in DPS increase.
First, as with many of you here, I think the only way this "unattuned" system would work is if unattuned runes dropped in addition to colored runes. Your entire build being subject to constant /roll is beyond frustrating.. it's a showstopper. I'm around 98% (+/- 2%) sure that Blizzard knows this.
Second, let's assume both unattuned and colored runes drop. I think unattuned runes should be vastly superior to colored runes. What I mean by vastly is open to interpretation, but in general, they should be highly coveted. That's the only way I see the addition of unattuned runes moving beyond the simply annoying mechanic of D2 charms, and actually becoming a feature that increases replay value and fun factor.
In my opinion, games in general need to be difficult and frustrating. You shouldn't be getting your loot-based dopamine reward very often, else the game loses appeal quickly. I want to really have to WORK on my character to make him strong. When a level 7 unattuned rune drops, I want to be STOKED. When I pop it into the skill, and THIS time it FINALLY tunes exactly as needed, I want to poop my pants. Is that too much to ask? Pooping my pants?
-Thomas Jefferson
The attuned runes on good skills with good stats would be extraordinarily rare and in high demand. Thus their value would skyrocket. That could be a problem, especially for casuals.
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
This isn't just a Tier 7 rune issue. You're not going to be swimming in runes at all. Tier 1 runes might be pretty common drops. That gives players the ability to play around with an effect to see if they even want the higher level runes of that color. But Tier 2 will be rarer, Tier 3 rarer, Tier 4 rarer, Tier 5 rarer, Tier 6 rarer, and Tier 7 rarer.
I wouldn't be surprised if you get through Hell with only seeing one or two Tier 6 runes total and maybe 3-4 Tier 5s. On average, that would give you one skill with a level 5 or 6 rune, and the rest still sub 4. It just makes a rather essential part of character customization random and frustrating. I think higher level rune drops will be rare enough that it will be exciting to get one, to not have to bother with the additional dice roll 20% shot at what you want.
To me, it all comes down to how runes are used. Runes are a part of your character's build, not a simple piece of gear. A player should have a reasonable ability to choose their build without randomness.
You want your GAMES to be difficult and frustrating? I want my games to be fun. Challenging, sure. Frustrating? I guess I don't see the value in that.
Better equipment is king in Diablo. And Runes are just another item to collect. And if you don't like the unassigned rune idea, just farm gold and get one on the AH. If they are bound to skills then you can bet it will be on the AH.
Random drops and countless runs are the hallmark of Diablo. That's why its so important that gameplay is fun, because you'll be doing it over and over and over. Level 1 & 2 runes will be very plentiful, so socket all your skills with them. Then start on level 3 & 4. If you find Nightmare mode or Hell mode too tough, its time to constantly farm for better equipment (inc runes) on a lower level), and/or join co-op games.
With enough farming, lots of luck and playing the AH, you'll eventually be decently geared. But unless you're willing to spend A LOT of time in D3, don't expect to get all the uniques or level 7 runes you are expecting. Do you think everyone who wanted a Windforce in D2 got it? Heck I've played Diablo 2 a lot and I've only every found a Stone of Jordan twice.
Idk, Rank 7 runes shouldnt be as rare as you two think. Especially if they allow attuned and unattuned runes to drop. If rank 7 runes are ridiculously hard to get, then Rank7 unattuned runes attuned to good skills w/ good stats are going to be damn near impossible to get.
If your chances to get any rune is Rare, then your chance to get an unattuned rune is 1/6 of that, and you chance to attune it to the skill you want is 1/5, and then after you have to calculate the chance of getting good stats. Add all that together and getting a good rune attacked to a good skill with good stats would be like winning the lotto.
Lol, I did not catch that.
I am hoping it was some poorly chosen words....I usually play games to relieve frustration.
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
Yeah frustrating isn't the right word, good catch. I meant challenging.
The point is, if an activity is not challenging, there isn't much intrinsic value in that activity.
Most of the games I play these days are like walking. Everyone can do it, and you don't need any expertise. I don't want D3 to be like a marathon, but maybe more like a 10k. You have to train for it, work at it, but it's not freak-show hard.
As it turns out, randomness and rarity are a big part of what gives D3 an expertise curve.
-Thomas Jefferson
There is a difference in what people in here want runes to be. Some people see runes as another item to farm for, equal to gear. Others see it as a way to customize their character - To find the most fun playstyle that suits them.
My only concern is feeling gimped, maybe even have to change my playstyle, because i got unlucky with the runes. Luck should not decide the way you play the game. I like farming for items that makes me better at what i do. I dont like farming runes just so i can keep playing the way i like the most, or even changing my build so i can keep farming for those runes i need. Its as much about the ride as it is about reaching the end of the game item wise.
My point is that this is something you shouldnt have to worry about. The runes are basicly replacement for the skills in D2. Not playing the way i want to there, because i was unlucky, would certainly make it less fun.
Now there are a few things that may help you get the runes you need. The AH first and foremost. But you cant know for sure how that works out until its live and well into the game. There will be runes in this game that will be much more popular than others, as certain skills were in D2. Making them very rare/terribly expensive - much harder to get than other runes.
Most people might get the runes they want and need to continue their playstyle. Some people may not be that lucky.
I'm not at all expecting to be fully kitted out with one run through Hell. Certainly not. When I say simple piece of gear I mean it, though. Hycoolio said it well in the previous post, gear makes me better at what I do but it doesn't change how I play. Getting the leet sword drop doesn't mean I change how I whirlwind (or even that I use whirlwind to kill mobs). Better gear makes you better at what you do. Runes just aren't the same to me. Yes, they're items, but the way they interact with skills is just very different with the way gear interacts with skills. Gear causes your skills to do more damage or cost less or faster. Runes can alter the very nature of how you use your skills to kill enemies. That's a decision I think the player should be able to make, not one that should be made for him by the randomizer. The only customization options we have are what active skills we have and what color runes we use. Taking away our freedom of choice on rune color is a bit much.
See, randomizing rune color on rune placement doesn't make the game more challenging to me. It just makes it more frustrating and tedious. You're not a better player because your rune rolled the color you wanted. It's just luck. The challenge from Diablo comes from making good decisions. Choosing the right skill and rune combinations along with tactics during battle.
I am totally fine with Tier 7 runes being very rare things. I'm also fine with affixes on the runes being random so that there's a potential for better runes out there to further improve your character. The color of a rune, though, is something I want to be able to make a decision about. I think that it feels bad to not be able to play your character how you want because of bad luck. Bad luck on gear drops means you might not be as strong as you'd like, but bad luck on rune rolls means you can't play the way you want at all, and that's not fun.
I don't know, maybe it's not even worth discussing further since we're all just making assumptions about how the system might or might not work. I know what I'd like the system to look like, I suppose we'll have to wait and see what Blizzard's actual plan is. I do trust that if whatever system they have is frustrating, it will be changed to something else. Runes have come a long way from their original design already. Hell, every game system has been through multiple versions. I'm sure some people still would prefer a skill system with skill points and trees, too.
I'm with you to a point.. but being a skilled player isn't the only thing that should be rewarded in gaming. Time investment should also be rewarded, and having the best things in the game being exceptionally rare is simply a reward for time investment.
You say it's "just luck" but it's not. If something only drops 1 out of every 1 million mobs, and you put in tons of time and kill 10 million mobs, you are 10 times more likely than the casual player who has only killed a million.
It's incentive to increase your odds, not just dumb luck. That's why I consider adding extra reward with "juiced" runes a positive gameplay element, one that will increase replay value.
-Thomas Jefferson
The mentality of the hardcore, not survival mode, D2 players is a little insane tbh. If items are not damn near impossible to get, then the game is not hard enough. Except, most of the them didnt get said items, they cheated for them.
I am fine with items and runes being uncommon, as long as its not insanely difficult to get a good Rank7 rune w/ stats.
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
Aye, this.
Really if you get pissed/frustrated about randomnes then I hate to say that Diablo may not be for you...
I think that adding random affixes to colored runes that only appear when they're socketed into a skill is the perfect level of variation. There will still be better runes out there to look for, but in the meantime you can use the build you want to play the way you want.
If you want it to take 1,000,000 kills to get one perfect rune, that can be done without unattuned runes. Unattuned or not does not impact the rarity. Colored vs. unattuned simply means that when you do get that drop, it's useful. Just like any rare drop in Diablo is useful (whether to use, sell, trade, or give to an alt).
It's not a question of rarity, it's a question of player experience. I'm of the opinion that it just sucks more to have bad luck mean you can't play your class the way you want to play it. Character strength from gear is a different level of power than character viability from rune color.
I agree with this 110%, unattuned runes are simply a bad idea.
Just give random stats to colored runes when you place them in skills.
Lets you use the abilities you want, while giving you the ability to change builds, and still gives you something to work towards w/o it being near impossible.
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
If level 1-3 runes are common as dirt by the time you get into Nightmare then you have the ability to customize your skills the way you want to play them - the difference (from what Ive seen) between a 3 and 6 is not earth-shattering. Yes the 6 is better but if you want a specific function from you skill you will have it - and it will probably be about 80% of the power of someone who has that skill in level 6 rune - you're not crippled... its virtually identical in comparrison to someone with a very rare weapon over your "average" legendary.
I would expect to be using level 4/5 runes in my skills well in to farming hell - possibly even the entire time. Getting the proper level 7 rune into your skill should be roughly the equivalent of finding that ultimate legendary weapon with perfect prefixes/suffixes.
I don't see how having to use a more common level 4 rune in your skill is frustrating - customization to use the skill you want in the way you want is easily attainable - the last 3 (very incremental) levels of power though come at the same price of grinding and luck as always.
I'm not just talking about Tier 7 runes here. I'm talking about the entire experience while leveling up. I think it's going to be frustrating every time you find a rune, put it into a skill and fail to get something useful. You can't even give it to an alt at that point because it's locked to your skill.
This is not about optimization, it's about being able to choose how you want to build your character. It's more analogous to not receiving skills when you level up and only getting them as items.
Suppose unattuned skill rocks dropped as an item in the game. When you slot them into an active skill slot, they randomly choose a skill from your possible skillset to become, and they lock to that skill slot. Say they also have 7 levels that increase in power. That would be a super lame game mechanic, wouldn't you agree?
So you get your first skill stone, and roll a skill you don't want to use. Oh well, I guess you'll use it until you get another drop. You do, and try again. You get something else you don't want to use. Keep farming, I guess. Until you finally get the skill you want to use, and can start working on your second skill.
Here's the arguments for a system like that:
- Since it's much harder to get a skill build that you like and is effective, you'd feel more accomplished when you do it.
- It'll take much longer to get your character to become stronger, so it adds to replay value.
- Since lower power skill rocks drop fairly often, it won't take long to at least get a build you want to play. Then it's just a matter of power, similar to the item game.
Sound familiar?
It's not about items having randomization. it's not about the fact that it may take a long time to get perfect level 7 runes. It's about being able to play your character HOW you CHOOSE to play your character.
This is a complete misunderstanding of the system. The first part is correct, with unattuned runes you have a 1/5 chance of getting the color you want when you place it. But the second part is way off. I'm not looking for runes to drop already attuned to a skill. I just want them to have a color. That gives me a better than 1/5 chance of it being useful because even if it's not the color I wanted for my primary skill, it's a color I can use in a different skill, or give to an alt to use in their skills. In fact it's probably 100% useful because I can do something with it. Just like gems are 100% useful when they drop because they can be crafted up into higher level gems. Just like gear is 100% useful when it drops because I can break it down into crafting components and craft something that is useful.
I think there's enough variation in affixes to make it interesting enough to search for better runes without needing to randomize the color on placement. It's a system that works fine for gear. Imagine if items became bound to class, but didn't identify until you equipped them. I've got an unidentified weapon here, I'll just put that on my Barbarian. Oh look, I got an awesome wizard staff. Too bad it's locked to my Barbarian.
Making things arbitrarily harder to obtain does not necessarily make it more interesting or fun.
How do you know there isnt a big difference between a level 3 rune and a level 6 rune? If runepower scale accordingly to gems, for example Meteor would have 231% more weapon damage from a level 6 crimson rune than a level 3 one. As someone else said further up here, you need the best equipment to continue to harder difficulties/areas.
Since you need to random your 5 skills, some players will find their gear faster than finding the correct runes (especially with the new artisan system). Now they have a choice of continue the game with another playstyle, or stay behind and farm for the runes they so desperately need. You dont know how long thats going to take, because there is no safety net in the system to catch the really unlucky ones.
For those who want level 7 runes to be the same as legendary weapons, why not add rare and even legendary runes to please both sides.
So you have this ultimate build that you strive for. Everyone will. But you find a higher level rune of a color not of your build. Eg. I am aiming for Indigo Magic Missle and got a Crimson one instead. You can play using this new skill. It didn't impress you at rune level 1, what about now at rune level 5, is Crimson better? And if it is, why not use it till you do find the indigo lvl 5 rune you really want?
The new system encourages experimentation and testing. Are you so dead set against all other builds except for your one true build? Also, you seem to conveniently forget about the AH (let's limit it to the gold AH). You can get the rune you want either by playing the AH or by trading if you are into that. Its not only about runes dropping for you, there will be tens of thousands of players who didn't get the rune color they wanted, best option is to sell or trade them.