Warning, this is a long post and I put a lot of thought into it. Please read through it all so that the best possible discussion can be garnered. Thanks!
Hey all! I just want to say I've been lurking this website for many years...I was lurking for quite a while before the old domain (diablo3.com) was sold to Blizzard and Diablofans was created in its wake.
That out of the way, I have to voice my opinion on a game I have waited for for quite some time. Also let me preface by saying I think it's somewhat silly that I can't post in the new community forums for Diablo 3 unless I renew my ancient WoW subscription or buy Starcraft II. I figured the old Diablos would be enough, but I suppose not :(. I do feel that the feedback they are receiving on that forum is not nearly as on point for a true Diablo fan (such as us) since they don't allow owners of just those titles to post.
So, onto the topic at hand! The skill system. This has been an incredibly hot issue for debate since the early days of minor modification to the current complete revamp. Initially, I was excited for the way the game had been built. It seemed to be a polished upgrade from Diablo II, which is what I and many, many others wanted. I shared many of the concerns from each build of the game, from the color choices to the architectural resemblances to World of Warcraft. There is nothing more irritating to me than having a character with weapons that are 4 times their body length and sparkling with enough mystical fire to ignite Yggdrasil. But, overall, I was pleased with how the game was shaping up. I can get past a few graphical dislikes as long as the core gameplay is the same. Unfortunately, that's not what has panned out thusfar. In my opinion, they've all but killed replayability (with the same class), made the game far less immersive, and lost touch with what Diablo is all about.
TL;DR (hehe)
Here are my problems with the current skill system...
No skill trees
I am not afraid of revolutions in gaming. I have played more than enough games in my day to realize that things you wouldn’t think possible are actually quite fun. However, after milling over the beta footage and various bits of info, it seems silly not to have some sort of point distribution to further the connection between your character and yourself. Customization is so key in a game like this, and user-end customization is something the game cannot choose for you (like loot, runes, armor, and so forth). This is the only thing in the game you can decide, and in a game like this, it needs to be front and center. The way characters were built in Diablo II, while flawed, were still unique. The reason some builds were more prevalent was easily because of the band-aid fixes applied to the game several years after launch. Enigma, Ubers, high-end runewords. The builds that many complained about could have been solved by actual balance. Unfortunately, the Diablo II team was all but nonexistent, and such a feat was impossible.
Access to all skills
To me, this is a problem. This entirely defeats the replayability of this game. The Sorceress was my favorite class in Diablo II. I had many, (Fire, Lightning, Blizzard, Frozen Orb, Energy, etc.)and each was fun to play in their own way. Nothing really came close to the fun that running Ancient Tunnels, Mephisto, and various other places with your powerful Blizzard that you invested the research and time to build properly. If you have access to all skills of a class and there are no skill points, then all of the skills are intended to be equal. Unfortunately, this means the differentiation of each character is based solely on items, runes, etc. Virtually all user-end decision is eliminated. The REASON why this is a problem (as many will say: "But instead of having 5 sorcs, you can have one that all serve the same purpose!") is that if I wanted a new sorc, I had to work for it. I was excited about having a second high level character that I would have a connection to. With these Wizards being all-in-ones, you aren't dedicated to looking for build-specific gear and tearing the game up with your unique character. Instead, you're just looking for good...gear. Anything will do, if that makes sense.
Skill swapping with no penalty
This one isn't as important, because no doubt it will be addressed in SOME manner. Right now, any character can change to any skill they've unlocked at any time. Why the developers thought this would be smart is beyond me. Macros can easily be made to have characters press a few keys and be outfitted with the perfect skill set to face the demons ahead. It has been shown numerous times in many beta streams that this is the case. The overall problem with this skill system is that it is inherently flawed. You cannot give someone the freedom of having every skill. It negates the want to build more than one character of the same class. It erases "builds" entirely, and what builds DO exist due to certain items and runes (which is an incredibly watered down way to differentiate players) can be mimicked and easily attained thanks to the accessibility of items to the player (RMAH, personal drops, shared stash). It ruins differentiation between characters.
Lack of connection with your character
This is one of the most important aspects for me. You hardly look at your character screen because you don't really need to from what I've seen from all the D3 footage. Why would you? Stats are chosen for you, skills are unlocked for you. There doesn't seem to be a real DRAW to pull yourself toward your character. These factors are preventing IMMERSION, which is what video games are all about. A small analogy for you...Resident Evil. 1 and 2 specifically were survival horrors. They were scary. They were difficult, and you could get so screwed that you wasted your goddamned ink ribbons and couldn't save (thus heightening the tension and making you mad, both good things). Resident Evil 4 and 5 were great games, but they weren't quite the same. They took the "horror" out of survival horror by making it a shooting action game. Diablo 3 is doing the same thing to the origins of the series by making it less RPG, more action. No doubt it will be fun, but in the RPG world, this is absolutely unacceptable. You NEED to be tied to your character and not feel like you're playing Gauntlet at an arcade machine.
Some common rebuttals to these complaints of the new skill system:
"If I screwed up in Diablo II, I had to make a new character."
While this was true until respecs arrived, it isn't like it was difficult or "unfun" to make a new character. If you didn't know how to build a character (which is NO different from ANY other game with optimal builds), then you most likely wouldn't care if your blizzard did 80% the damage compared to the guy next to you.
"Runes will provide the customization and differentiation, as well as the setback to swapping skills."
I don't buy into this. I've seen from the datamines, various panels, videos, so forth the general idea behind runes. While this will provide customization, it doesn't seem at this point that it would provide enough to have someone say "Yes, I'm a Hydra Wiz" or "Yes, I'm an Archon Wiz". Why is it so difficult to let the player decide what skills he wants to be powerful?
"The skill system just had players respec their character and dump all the points into the skill they just unlocked."
This is a paraphrased Blizzard quote that we are all very familiar with. This was part of the reasoning that Jay Wilson thought the skill point idea was a bad one, hence the creation of this new (and in my opinion, wrong) system. Respecs are well and good, but they saw when players had the freedom to re-allocate their skill points, they would. Players choosing the most powerful skill is going to happen regardless. When you give them more freedom, they will take whatever skill has the most damaging numbers. So instead of restricting the freedom (respecs) they give total freedom (no skill points). This makes absolutely no sense to me. Sure, everyone gets to try every skill, but here's the problem. Even in a game with all skills available to you, there will still be the most powerful skill or set of skills. What they've done here is stripped what THEY thought was the problem (skill points) instead of wanting to deal with the real demon (constant balance). It makes me think they don't know enough about the series to be able to make these kind of judgment calls. Note: In Diablo II, you have a powerful Charged Boltress or Teeth Necro. You are cool and unique. In Diablo 3, you have a Magic Missile Wizard. You're an outcast and should be ashamed.
"This skill system is awesome! I love not having to make two Wizards, three Barbs, and so forth."
Some people like this new skill system. I'm okay with that. But, that does not mean having a character with every skill possible is a good thing. The only reason you had to make multiple characters of the same class in Diablo II was due to lack of respecs. I don't mind giving some of the punishment for screwing up my skills, but I don't want to give all of it up. Yes I was frustrated when I put 5 points in Shiver Armor way back in the day where they could have been put somewhere else. Does that matter to most people? No. Does it mean you are stuck and can't beat the game and that you have to make a new character? Absolutely not. I believe that the developers of Diablo 3 saw this as a huge obstacle, and instead of solving the problem by removing restriction and punishment, they tipped the scale in the opposite direction. Now the fun of building your character how you want to is just about gone because of how easy it is to change what he/she is. I'm not saying the system in Diablo II was perfect, so I will try and provide what I think would be an optimal system for Diablo 3 below...
Some ideas for improvement...
Re-introduce skill points at the very least, and give the option to allocate your stats manually.
Allow the option for respecs.
Put a gold sink on them that becomes more expensive each time you use it OR only allow one per 10 levels gained (or something like that). Not unlimited, but not too many. You have to play with your choices in the game. I think 2 respecs is way more than enough for a player like me, but I figure someone who wants to try a bunch of builds can do it with 5. Possibly make it so where you can run out of respecs and have to make a new character to get more after 5, 10, 20, I don't know. Sometimes harsh restriction is far more rewarding than too much freedom. Even if you think this is harsh, restrictions like this (as in Diablo II) added to longevity and replayability.
Allow skills to be powered past max level, as in Diablo II.
Items with +to skills or +to all skills were so critical in Diablo II to deciding what kind of items you were seeking. Without these kind of things, what is it we're looking for? + random numbers? +100% armor? These items provide so much more to the game because as a Blizzard Sorc, you KNOW you want Death's Fathom, Snowclash, and so on to provide your Blizzard with that much more "OOMPH". Am I the only one who had that general "awe" at comparing your character to someone else who knew how to do it and is absolutely crushing the Nine Hells under his foot? "I want to do that!" It doesn't seem like that will be possible in D3.
Reconsider synergies
I realize that synergies were changed to add life to a dying game, but the idea is brilliant. Skills that somehow power your other skills? With how many different iterations of skills there can be thanks to runes, this idea could REALLY take off in Diablo 3.
Bear in mind that I really do like the introduction of runes as skill modifiers. That's awesome. That just adds a huge level of customization to the game. I think they realized that they bit off more than they could chew in balancing, and just got rid of skills to compensate. There HAS to be a way to incorporate this new system with the system of old, and have them work together in harmony. As of right now, it doesn't really make sense to watch a Monk fight a bunch of mobs, change his skill to heal, and then head back into battle. It's awkward, and Blizzard KNOWS they can do better than THAT nonsense.
In closing, I have to say that I really think a modification of the old skill system with some new friendly (but not too friendly) respecs is what this game sorely needs. I can't imagine wanting to keep playing this game for too long after finding my favorite class and beating the game. Diablo II survived and was so much fun for so long because of this skill system and specific items that rewarded you for focusing on building your Blizzard sorc (or whatever character) and taking the time to research how, where, and what. If they keep with this "all skills for every class" nonsense, I think those of us intelligent enough to understand why it isn't fun will move on rather quickly. Quite frankly, that's a lot of us, and that's a lot of future customers lost. It worries me greatly, because what this game was took such a nose dive for me in the last few months that it becomes more and more upsetting the more I learn. I am just one guy, and I don't claim to have all the answers. I hope you guys find some insight from this and hopefully together we might be able to change a few things :). Thanks for reading!
Wow that was long haha. I think the one thing for sure that the community is agreeing on is no-penalty skill swapping is bad because it then becomes an obligatory thing to do while playing. I've watched countless streams where people are changing skills on their bar rather than fighting monsters. This I am sure Blizz will act upon.
As for the other stuff, I really don't know. Take SC2 for instance, we whined constructively and positively in the mapping forums since the beta about how the custom game system was not working. They made some changes/fixes but in the 1.5 years of SC2, its core has not changed (HOTS may change this who knows). Now I don't even play sc2 or recommend it to friends, yet War3 I EXCLUSIVELY played for the custom maps. Well, I'll stop on this over-beaten issue.
The key is: don't get your hopes up too much. I agree with you I do like feeling unique and having some tree system is nice but D2's system had its issues. I'm skeptical they will have time or do anything significant about the current skill system.
Ok, a long complaining post requires a fairly long aswer. I'll try to point out some things:
Replayability: So, not counting different genders, if you play all classes on SC and HC, thats 10 chars (which is the character limit). Normally that would be 30 run through the story, but since inferno was introduced, that became 40. Is it interesting, to grind through the story for a 41st time just for a different build? Not for me. Especially because I spent so much time on gearing the other 10 chars. If you want to replay the game one more time: DELETE YOUR F*CKING CHAR AND THERE YOU HAVE IT!
Access to all skills: No one's stopping you, from being a sadist and creating skill trees for yourself, but spare me plz. Skill-trees kill spell synergies and builds you might not find, if your're forced to the same build. Skill trees create uninnovative builds, because if you go with one line, you're forced, to select those few skills. Also, certain things, like fire damage wizzard might become uneffective at some parts of the game, because fire resistant mobs. Yes, we can have respecs, but what's the difference then? It would only cost gold, and maybe some mats and our time that we could spend on slaying Diablo...
Connection with a character: I will not get connected to my char, because I place some points in this and that but because I played with him/her for a long time, and I had fun. If I play for like 8 months with my DH called Buttsex, and I'd like to try out something new, then I dont have to create Analintruder, and thats good, because Buttsex has already taken a place in my heart.
Skill points: If you don't want freedom, break your left hand, and play only with mouse, but dont force me to play with only a few skills. Oh, and blizzard plans to put minutes long CD on the strongest skills, so I'll definitely use some low end skills, just so I don't have to autoatack. Also, Blizz can create more tricky monsters, especially bosses, because if you die, you swap some skills, and thake another shot with that.
Swapping any time: I can agree with this to a certain degree, that waiting for others, to swap their skills might be boring, but is this better? :OH wait, I need to go back to town, because I got a new skill *1minute later* Re, oh balls , this skill is crap, I gotta go back and respec *5 minutes later* s/he comes back. Great stuff isn't it? Since you CAN use 6 skills, I think later on we only need to swap 1 or 2 skils before a boss fight (if we need to swap at all), because the 6 skill in our build will be runed, therefore better than others.
Gameplay after we finished Inferno (you didn't mention this, but I think I should): There are always more gearing to do, arena and achievements, so you definitely wont get bored. I don't think we need another playthrough with the same class.
Feel free to react and hate me, but this is how I see the whole thing.
PS: I dont think that a "skill-tree, skill point" Diablo would be bad, but I personally feel, that this is way more better.
I don't really see why you can't just create skill trees yourself and stick to them. You want to play a fire wizard? Use only fire skills and rune effects. No one is stopping you other than your own obsessive compulsive tendencies towards min-maxing.
If you can't play how you want to be forced to play, why should we be forced to play that way as well?
Personally, I am going to withhold judgement on the new system until I can give it a fair shot. By fair shot I mean play with it through Inferno. Once that's finished I think I will be able to say if it's a good system or not.
I think passing judgement on the system before putting it through its paces yourself is premature.
Once we have access to all skills and runes swapping skills won't be as easy as you think. For example I might like using a Crimson Rune with Bash but then sometimes feel like I would rather use Cleave but the Crimson Rune might not be as good or what you want for that certain situation. This would mean you would need to have a nice big stack of runes in your inventory to effectively swap abilities mid-fight and then take into consideration how difficult it will be to get all high level runes of every color. From what I've seen runes are worth using for every spell because they only have a benefit even if it's something as simple as extra damage.
haticK is onto it up there I believe. I think that runes will be important and difficult to get/expensive (for the good ones) but also necessary to play hell/inferno competitively. Through Normal/Nightmare, you'll find which skills you like based on your play style and their power, and you'll have to use mostly those in the later levels, because un-runed or poorly-runed skills won't help you survive.
This would be especially true if the new "unattuned rune" idea that Jay Wilson discussed comes to fruition. Yeah, you can change your skills on the fly, but there's no reason to until you're rich enough to have the correct rune for that skill with the better modifiers. Also, if you have a top of the line rune that you worked hard to get, are you going to swap away from that skill? No, otherwise you wouldn't have worked so hard for that rune.
Obviously, a ton of this will depend on the scarcity of upper level runes and the actual difficulty of hell/inferno. But these are things that Blizzard can easily balance for. I have to believe that they have truly thought this through.
Now, this doesn't address the legitimate problem of "why would I level a new witch doctor?" The "leveling" of the new one will actually be just finding the runes for that new "build" you want.
Similarly, hopefully your armor/weapons/gear will make changing skills at a whim harder as your gear isn't as effective anymore.
I have been reading a lot of feedback on blizzard's d3 forum, quite many of them are concerned about the skill set swapping issue. Some people are saying that runes will prevent it, but at this moment we have little information on runes mechanism.
Remember how 1 skill pt in corpse explosion and teleport in d2 was good enough?
It is very likely that there will be skills (all maxed) in d3 like that, where runes do not make much of a difference for the purpose of the skill. For example, buff/debuff or escape skills. You can use your buff/debuff, and when you see the need, switch that to a escape/movement skill.
What I am saying here is that, Blizzard decided on the 6 skill slot to force us make hard decisions. 6 skills out of 20. But its system right now is going the opposite direction than their philosophy.
If we can use macro to quickly switch skills, we can potentially have more than 6 skills (all maxed) at our hand.
I am sure that runes will make skills different, but not the same degree of alteration to each skill. For those skills where rune effects are negligible, and does not improve its intended purpose, people will just get more skills.
Also, for those rich kids (or people play endelessly) they may able to put a rune in all the skills they need, maybe all 20 if allowed. You can say well they spent their money/time, and they deserve it. But you have to question, is this the way blizzard want the game to turn out?
I think that one of the main reasons that skills are so freely swapped right now is simply because it is the beta and we are only playing the start of the game.
As the game progresses I'm sure there will be restrictions on swapping skills simply because of how awkwardly noticeably the current system is. If Blizz didn't know this about the system already, they certainly do now because of all of our feedback. Something as simple as adding a cooldown to a freshly swapped skill would stop any macro'd skill swap from being effective.
Wow that was long haha. I think the one thing for sure that the community is agreeing on is no-penalty skill swapping is bad because it then becomes an obligatory thing to do while playing.
/snip
I don't think most people feel its obligatory, I think most people will think it would be annoying to put yourself in a situation where you'll need to swap out skills all the time, and will instead aim to pick 6 skills that cover all their needs and stick with those, while only sometimes swapping in different skills that are similar, say one combo point builder for another on the monk or whatever.
I know that I definitely will not be hot-swapping skills all the time but will stick with my core 6 and only change to try something different from time to time.
Edit: I'm pretty sure that using a 3rd party macro system to quick-switch skills is a banable offense.
I think this is a problem that will simply go away or diminish as people collect specific loot for their build. For example, if you're a dual wielding critical strike heavy Barbarian, you're going to have two good one handed weapons and a lot of precision. If you wanted to change that into something with more survivability and stuns for PvP, you're going to have to spend time and resources trading for or crafting those new pieces of armor.
Even if you have multiple sets of armor for each type of play you enjoy (which is obviously what will happen in the long run), you're still going to switch from specific build to specific build. If you want to play as that crit heavy dual wielding Barb, you're going to switch to the build you have in mind for that. Same goes for the previously mentioned PvP build. If someone else wants to do the same thing, they probably have a different build in mind that fills the same purpose but in a slightly different fashion. They're also going to have different gear for it.
Either way, you're still going to have to do the same things as you did for D2. You're going to have to trade for or find the right weapons and armor for whatever build you have in mind. You're still (probably) going to want your character to be static and use the skills your comfortable and good with, even though you can switch whenever you want. Despite being able to seemingly switch around whenever you want, you're still going to have to go back to town, get your gear, and all that good stuff before you can do it, and you're probably going to rather sit out there and kill monsters instead of having to go back and forth.
So everyone is still going to want to build (both skills and items wise) their character in a specific way, and eventually you're going to have to commit to a certain playstyle through having the gear necessary for it. Just because you can switch whenever you want doesn't mean it will be a good idea or you'll want to. And if you do want to, then you still have that option.
Also, I don't know what streams most people have been watching, but especially with a 2-3 skill limit, people seem to be very carefully picking out their skills. Obviously they still experiment with new ones when they get them, but if they don't like it they switch back to a previous build, its not as though they are just like "Oh, group of large monsters, this build, now its a boss, so that build." Obviously that would be possible, but I don't see much of it. Even at level 60 you're only going to have six active and three passive skills. You're still going to have to be very careful about what combinations you choose because its not as though everything just works together or fits your playstyle.
Edit: I'm pretty sure that using a 3rd party macro system to quick-switch skills is a banable offense.
Some people use Autohotkey in WoW and it's not forbidden as far as I know. We're not talking about hacks here, these are normal programs designed to automate repetitive operations on the press of a button on your part.
Wow isn't Diablo 3, they do not have the same Terms of Service. Wow allows mods, diablo 3 does not.
As for the autokey keyboards I'm really not sure but I suppose that technically isn't a 3rd party program.
Edit: More on topic, I feel that without experience with the rune system it is hard to say exactly. Can non-active skills still be runed, or will the rune be removed once you swap out of the skill? If you cannot have inactive skills runed I think this will deter many players from playing a style which requires constant in battle quick swapping.
I personally love the idea of not having skill points, I do not feel as though I would lose connection to my character, as there will be a lot of time, practive and thought that will have gone into which 6 skills I choose, how I choose to rune them and of course, as always, my gear !! For me diablo 2 was, look up on google how to not mess up a build, put my attribute and skills points into exact cookie cutter builds so I didn't feel absurdly under powered in hell mode, I agree with Jay and feel like skill points actually take away from customization.
My thought on synergies is that if you use a rune to make skill A better and skill A is an effect from skill B, that should rune should affect Skill A whether you cast it directly or it gets cast as an effect from skill B. For example, Ice Armor has a rune that will cause it to cast Frost Nova when hit. If you are using Frost Nova and have a rune it it, that rune should affect the Frost Nova that is cat by the Ice Armor. You would sacrifice a skill slot to essentially rune Ice Armor twice.
Edit: More on topic, I feel that without experience with the rune system it is hard to say exactly. Can non-active skills still be runed, or will the rune be removed once you swap out of the skill? If you cannot have inactive skills runed I think this will deter many players from playing a style which requires constant in battle quick swapping.
I personally love the idea of not having skill points, I do not feel as though I would lose connection to my character, as there will be a lot of time, practive and thought that will have gone into which 6 skills I choose, how I choose to rune them and of course, as always, my gear !! For me diablo 2 was, look up on google how to not mess up a build, put my attribute and skills points into exact cookie cutter builds so I didn't feel absurdly under powered in hell mode, I agree with Jay and feel like skill points actually take away from customization.
I don't think that passive skills can be runed. Next to each skill in the UI there seems to be a circular slot for a rune, but for the passive skills there is only 3 boxes that are unlocked every ten levels.
I don't think that passive skills can be runed. Next to each skill in the UI there seems to be a circular slot for a rune, but for the passive skills there is only 3 boxes that are unlocked every ten levels.
Sorry by non-active I didn't mean passive, I meant skills that were not currently selected by your character. Hehe I should have been more specific.
But logically it wouldn't make sense for them to remove a rune if you unselected a skill, but if you find a really high level rune and runes do become locked to skills, I feel like whatever skill you've runed you'll want to keep. This point becomes irrelevant though once a character has found enough high level runes to rune every skill, and so really doesn't add anything to either side of the argument.
I wouldn't mind seeing skills to only be interchangeable in town or something past normal mode, but I am quite happy with the system itself.
I think this is the best possible direction the skill sytem went. Skill points are a waste of my time, Especially since not all my skills would be the best they can be. To your argument about how the highest leveled skills would be most used, I call BULLSHIT. Did you even watch the streams? Have you looked at the skills when they roll over them? Did you see their damage ranges? HELL FOR WIZARDS DISINTEGRATE IS MORE POWERFUL THAN BLIZZARD. It scales based on your attack so that nothing is ever "better" than another skill. They made sure of that. If you want a direct damage dealing fire spell then choose disintegrate if you want AOE frost moves get Blizzard, they'll both do shitloads of damage but one you have to be level 29 to get the other just 13. I also hated tree's because then I'd have to continue that one single path forever. That's boring as fuck. I like switching things up once in a while This whole system allows for that to happen. Plus when you get the max level rune which will be hard apparently, then socket it and get the best results, you won't want to switch to something shittier, and if you do ever switch it'll take a while to get that max rune too. It'll even itself out. Early levels = switch skills around to your needs, Higher levels = concentrate on your 6 max runed spells, endgame = get every skill maxed runed. Having to remake a character just for the sake of changing your playstyle blows because then you have to run through the story all over again 3 times for every different tree you chose. Honestly if you ask me they did this one fine and I hope they don't change it at all. Maybe make a goldsink in respeccing but thats it.
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Not even Death will save you from Diablo Bunny's Cuteness!
I'm guessing the "unattuned rune" idea is that whenever you change skills, the skill you just added loses the rune effect for some time? That sounds like a pretty smart way to go about it.
Jay Wilson discussed an idea they were going to toy around with when they released the removal of skill points & the RMAH.
He said they were going to toy with the idea of runes dropping as "Unattuned" runes which basically are gray runes with no visible stats, only a level. Once you put that rune into a skill, it becomes "attuned" to that skill and that skill only. So, a rune put into frenzy is now only usable in frenzy. That rune also will become one of the 5 color runes we already know about (randomly, and gain the effects on that skill) and may gain another couple modifiers, again randomly.
He also discussed the idea of having an artisan able to wipe the rune back to an unattuned state.
Now, if this were to happen, it would make the high level runes you have really important and valuable to the skills they are in, and only those skills. If there's a huge cost to reattune the rune, do you risk re-rolling the rune in a new skill if you like what you have? It's another wealth gaining system, and I personally love the idea. I hope they implement this.
Either way, you're still going to have to do the same things as you did for D2. You're going to have to trade for or find the right weapons and armor for whatever build you have in mind. You're still (probably) going to want your character to be static and use the skills your comfortable and good with, even though you can switch whenever you want. Despite being able to seemingly switch around whenever you want, you're still going to have to go back to town, get your gear, and all that good stuff before you can do it, and you're probably going to rather sit out there and kill monsters instead of having to go back and forth.
So everyone is still going to want to build (both skills and items wise) their character in a specific way, and eventually you're going to have to commit to a certain playstyle through having the gear necessary for it. Just because you can switch whenever you want doesn't mean it will be a good idea or you'll want to. And if you do want to, then you still have that option.
However, if skill switching can be easily and quickly done, then people's "goal" or "static" build can very likely be a character with more than 6 skills. Especially for wizard and witch doctor. Where items have a much lesser affect on their skill effect and damage output than the Barb. It is very likely that a player chooses to have more skills (all maxed) at his/her arsenal to gain advantage.
As I mentioned earlier, back in D2, there were many useful skills that you only needed 1 skill pt in. Now in d3, every skill is maxed, there certainly could be advantages found from having extra skills.
And just to reply to your last paragraph, yes options are nice, but in this case, where blizzard want us to make tough decision of 6 skills out of 20 (the marbles example told by bashiok), allowing players to go well beyond that seems to
go against their original idea. As well if player find advantages to be had for having more skills, then it will likely become a norm, which can cause balancing issues in the future, both in gameplay, and between characters (melee vs castors)
Edit: Lastly to Daylesan, I agree with hard decisions making a game more interesting
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Hey all! I just want to say I've been lurking this website for many years...I was lurking for quite a while before the old domain (diablo3.com) was sold to Blizzard and Diablofans was created in its wake.
That out of the way, I have to voice my opinion on a game I have waited for for quite some time. Also let me preface by saying I think it's somewhat silly that I can't post in the new community forums for Diablo 3 unless I renew my ancient WoW subscription or buy Starcraft II. I figured the old Diablos would be enough, but I suppose not :(. I do feel that the feedback they are receiving on that forum is not nearly as on point for a true Diablo fan (such as us) since they don't allow owners of just those titles to post.
So, onto the topic at hand! The skill system. This has been an incredibly hot issue for debate since the early days of minor modification to the current complete revamp. Initially, I was excited for the way the game had been built. It seemed to be a polished upgrade from Diablo II, which is what I and many, many others wanted. I shared many of the concerns from each build of the game, from the color choices to the architectural resemblances to World of Warcraft. There is nothing more irritating to me than having a character with weapons that are 4 times their body length and sparkling with enough mystical fire to ignite Yggdrasil. But, overall, I was pleased with how the game was shaping up. I can get past a few graphical dislikes as long as the core gameplay is the same. Unfortunately, that's not what has panned out thusfar. In my opinion, they've all but killed replayability (with the same class), made the game far less immersive, and lost touch with what Diablo is all about.
TL;DR (hehe)
Here are my problems with the current skill system...
Some common rebuttals to these complaints of the new skill system:
"If I screwed up in Diablo II, I had to make a new character."
While this was true until respecs arrived, it isn't like it was difficult or "unfun" to make a new character. If you didn't know how to build a character (which is NO different from ANY other game with optimal builds), then you most likely wouldn't care if your blizzard did 80% the damage compared to the guy next to you.
"Runes will provide the customization and differentiation, as well as the setback to swapping skills."
I don't buy into this. I've seen from the datamines, various panels, videos, so forth the general idea behind runes. While this will provide customization, it doesn't seem at this point that it would provide enough to have someone say "Yes, I'm a Hydra Wiz" or "Yes, I'm an Archon Wiz". Why is it so difficult to let the player decide what skills he wants to be powerful?
"The skill system just had players respec their character and dump all the points into the skill they just unlocked."
This is a paraphrased Blizzard quote that we are all very familiar with. This was part of the reasoning that Jay Wilson thought the skill point idea was a bad one, hence the creation of this new (and in my opinion, wrong) system. Respecs are well and good, but they saw when players had the freedom to re-allocate their skill points, they would. Players choosing the most powerful skill is going to happen regardless. When you give them more freedom, they will take whatever skill has the most damaging numbers. So instead of restricting the freedom (respecs) they give total freedom (no skill points). This makes absolutely no sense to me. Sure, everyone gets to try every skill, but here's the problem. Even in a game with all skills available to you, there will still be the most powerful skill or set of skills. What they've done here is stripped what THEY thought was the problem (skill points) instead of wanting to deal with the real demon (constant balance). It makes me think they don't know enough about the series to be able to make these kind of judgment calls. Note: In Diablo II, you have a powerful Charged Boltress or Teeth Necro. You are cool and unique. In Diablo 3, you have a Magic Missile Wizard. You're an outcast and should be ashamed.
"This skill system is awesome! I love not having to make two Wizards, three Barbs, and so forth."
Some people like this new skill system. I'm okay with that. But, that does not mean having a character with every skill possible is a good thing. The only reason you had to make multiple characters of the same class in Diablo II was due to lack of respecs. I don't mind giving some of the punishment for screwing up my skills, but I don't want to give all of it up. Yes I was frustrated when I put 5 points in Shiver Armor way back in the day where they could have been put somewhere else. Does that matter to most people? No. Does it mean you are stuck and can't beat the game and that you have to make a new character? Absolutely not. I believe that the developers of Diablo 3 saw this as a huge obstacle, and instead of solving the problem by removing restriction and punishment, they tipped the scale in the opposite direction. Now the fun of building your character how you want to is just about gone because of how easy it is to change what he/she is. I'm not saying the system in Diablo II was perfect, so I will try and provide what I think would be an optimal system for Diablo 3 below...
Some ideas for improvement...
Bear in mind that I really do like the introduction of runes as skill modifiers. That's awesome. That just adds a huge level of customization to the game. I think they realized that they bit off more than they could chew in balancing, and just got rid of skills to compensate. There HAS to be a way to incorporate this new system with the system of old, and have them work together in harmony. As of right now, it doesn't really make sense to watch a Monk fight a bunch of mobs, change his skill to heal, and then head back into battle. It's awkward, and Blizzard KNOWS they can do better than THAT nonsense.
In closing, I have to say that I really think a modification of the old skill system with some new friendly (but not too friendly) respecs is what this game sorely needs. I can't imagine wanting to keep playing this game for too long after finding my favorite class and beating the game. Diablo II survived and was so much fun for so long because of this skill system and specific items that rewarded you for focusing on building your Blizzard sorc (or whatever character) and taking the time to research how, where, and what. If they keep with this "all skills for every class" nonsense, I think those of us intelligent enough to understand why it isn't fun will move on rather quickly. Quite frankly, that's a lot of us, and that's a lot of future customers lost. It worries me greatly, because what this game was took such a nose dive for me in the last few months that it becomes more and more upsetting the more I learn. I am just one guy, and I don't claim to have all the answers. I hope you guys find some insight from this and hopefully together we might be able to change a few things :). Thanks for reading!
As for the other stuff, I really don't know. Take SC2 for instance, we whined constructively and positively in the mapping forums since the beta about how the custom game system was not working. They made some changes/fixes but in the 1.5 years of SC2, its core has not changed (HOTS may change this who knows). Now I don't even play sc2 or recommend it to friends, yet War3 I EXCLUSIVELY played for the custom maps. Well, I'll stop on this over-beaten issue.
The key is: don't get your hopes up too much. I agree with you I do like feeling unique and having some tree system is nice but D2's system had its issues. I'm skeptical they will have time or do anything significant about the current skill system.
D3 Channel: OnetwoD3
Replayability: So, not counting different genders, if you play all classes on SC and HC, thats 10 chars (which is the character limit). Normally that would be 30 run through the story, but since inferno was introduced, that became 40. Is it interesting, to grind through the story for a 41st time just for a different build? Not for me. Especially because I spent so much time on gearing the other 10 chars. If you want to replay the game one more time: DELETE YOUR F*CKING CHAR AND THERE YOU HAVE IT!
Access to all skills: No one's stopping you, from being a sadist and creating skill trees for yourself, but spare me plz. Skill-trees kill spell synergies and builds you might not find, if your're forced to the same build. Skill trees create uninnovative builds, because if you go with one line, you're forced, to select those few skills. Also, certain things, like fire damage wizzard might become uneffective at some parts of the game, because fire resistant mobs. Yes, we can have respecs, but what's the difference then? It would only cost gold, and maybe some mats and our time that we could spend on slaying Diablo...
Connection with a character: I will not get connected to my char, because I place some points in this and that but because I played with him/her for a long time, and I had fun. If I play for like 8 months with my DH called Buttsex, and I'd like to try out something new, then I dont have to create Analintruder, and thats good, because Buttsex has already taken a place in my heart.
Skill points: If you don't want freedom, break your left hand, and play only with mouse, but dont force me to play with only a few skills. Oh, and blizzard plans to put minutes long CD on the strongest skills, so I'll definitely use some low end skills, just so I don't have to autoatack. Also, Blizz can create more tricky monsters, especially bosses, because if you die, you swap some skills, and thake another shot with that.
Swapping any time: I can agree with this to a certain degree, that waiting for others, to swap their skills might be boring, but is this better? :OH wait, I need to go back to town, because I got a new skill *1minute later* Re, oh balls , this skill is crap, I gotta go back and respec *5 minutes later* s/he comes back. Great stuff isn't it? Since you CAN use 6 skills, I think later on we only need to swap 1 or 2 skils before a boss fight (if we need to swap at all), because the 6 skill in our build will be runed, therefore better than others.
Gameplay after we finished Inferno (you didn't mention this, but I think I should): There are always more gearing to do, arena and achievements, so you definitely wont get bored. I don't think we need another playthrough with the same class.
Feel free to react and hate me, but this is how I see the whole thing.
PS: I dont think that a "skill-tree, skill point" Diablo would be bad, but I personally feel, that this is way more better.
I don't really see why you can't just create skill trees yourself and stick to them. You want to play a fire wizard? Use only fire skills and rune effects. No one is stopping you other than your own obsessive compulsive tendencies towards min-maxing.
If you can't play how you want to be forced to play, why should we be forced to play that way as well?
I think passing judgement on the system before putting it through its paces yourself is premature.
If you loved the skill system in D2 so much, go play D2. D3 is a new game.
This would be especially true if the new "unattuned rune" idea that Jay Wilson discussed comes to fruition. Yeah, you can change your skills on the fly, but there's no reason to until you're rich enough to have the correct rune for that skill with the better modifiers. Also, if you have a top of the line rune that you worked hard to get, are you going to swap away from that skill? No, otherwise you wouldn't have worked so hard for that rune.
Obviously, a ton of this will depend on the scarcity of upper level runes and the actual difficulty of hell/inferno. But these are things that Blizzard can easily balance for. I have to believe that they have truly thought this through.
Now, this doesn't address the legitimate problem of "why would I level a new witch doctor?" The "leveling" of the new one will actually be just finding the runes for that new "build" you want.
Similarly, hopefully your armor/weapons/gear will make changing skills at a whim harder as your gear isn't as effective anymore.
Remember how 1 skill pt in corpse explosion and teleport in d2 was good enough?
It is very likely that there will be skills (all maxed) in d3 like that, where runes do not make much of a difference for the purpose of the skill. For example, buff/debuff or escape skills. You can use your buff/debuff, and when you see the need, switch that to a escape/movement skill.
What I am saying here is that, Blizzard decided on the 6 skill slot to force us make hard decisions. 6 skills out of 20. But its system right now is going the opposite direction than their philosophy.
If we can use macro to quickly switch skills, we can potentially have more than 6 skills (all maxed) at our hand.
I am sure that runes will make skills different, but not the same degree of alteration to each skill. For those skills where rune effects are negligible, and does not improve its intended purpose, people will just get more skills.
Also, for those rich kids (or people play endelessly) they may able to put a rune in all the skills they need, maybe all 20 if allowed. You can say well they spent their money/time, and they deserve it. But you have to question, is this the way blizzard want the game to turn out?
As the game progresses I'm sure there will be restrictions on swapping skills simply because of how awkwardly noticeably the current system is. If Blizz didn't know this about the system already, they certainly do now because of all of our feedback. Something as simple as adding a cooldown to a freshly swapped skill would stop any macro'd skill swap from being effective.
I don't think most people feel its obligatory, I think most people will think it would be annoying to put yourself in a situation where you'll need to swap out skills all the time, and will instead aim to pick 6 skills that cover all their needs and stick with those, while only sometimes swapping in different skills that are similar, say one combo point builder for another on the monk or whatever.
I know that I definitely will not be hot-swapping skills all the time but will stick with my core 6 and only change to try something different from time to time.
Edit: I'm pretty sure that using a 3rd party macro system to quick-switch skills is a banable offense.
Even if you have multiple sets of armor for each type of play you enjoy (which is obviously what will happen in the long run), you're still going to switch from specific build to specific build. If you want to play as that crit heavy dual wielding Barb, you're going to switch to the build you have in mind for that. Same goes for the previously mentioned PvP build. If someone else wants to do the same thing, they probably have a different build in mind that fills the same purpose but in a slightly different fashion. They're also going to have different gear for it.
Either way, you're still going to have to do the same things as you did for D2. You're going to have to trade for or find the right weapons and armor for whatever build you have in mind. You're still (probably) going to want your character to be static and use the skills your comfortable and good with, even though you can switch whenever you want. Despite being able to seemingly switch around whenever you want, you're still going to have to go back to town, get your gear, and all that good stuff before you can do it, and you're probably going to rather sit out there and kill monsters instead of having to go back and forth.
So everyone is still going to want to build (both skills and items wise) their character in a specific way, and eventually you're going to have to commit to a certain playstyle through having the gear necessary for it. Just because you can switch whenever you want doesn't mean it will be a good idea or you'll want to. And if you do want to, then you still have that option.
Also, I don't know what streams most people have been watching, but especially with a 2-3 skill limit, people seem to be very carefully picking out their skills. Obviously they still experiment with new ones when they get them, but if they don't like it they switch back to a previous build, its not as though they are just like "Oh, group of large monsters, this build, now its a boss, so that build." Obviously that would be possible, but I don't see much of it. Even at level 60 you're only going to have six active and three passive skills. You're still going to have to be very careful about what combinations you choose because its not as though everything just works together or fits your playstyle.
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Wow isn't Diablo 3, they do not have the same Terms of Service. Wow allows mods, diablo 3 does not.
As for the autokey keyboards I'm really not sure but I suppose that technically isn't a 3rd party program.
Edit: More on topic, I feel that without experience with the rune system it is hard to say exactly. Can non-active skills still be runed, or will the rune be removed once you swap out of the skill? If you cannot have inactive skills runed I think this will deter many players from playing a style which requires constant in battle quick swapping.
I personally love the idea of not having skill points, I do not feel as though I would lose connection to my character, as there will be a lot of time, practive and thought that will have gone into which 6 skills I choose, how I choose to rune them and of course, as always, my gear !! For me diablo 2 was, look up on google how to not mess up a build, put my attribute and skills points into exact cookie cutter builds so I didn't feel absurdly under powered in hell mode, I agree with Jay and feel like skill points actually take away from customization.
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Sorry by non-active I didn't mean passive, I meant skills that were not currently selected by your character. Hehe I should have been more specific.
But logically it wouldn't make sense for them to remove a rune if you unselected a skill, but if you find a really high level rune and runes do become locked to skills, I feel like whatever skill you've runed you'll want to keep. This point becomes irrelevant though once a character has found enough high level runes to rune every skill, and so really doesn't add anything to either side of the argument.
I wouldn't mind seeing skills to only be interchangeable in town or something past normal mode, but I am quite happy with the system itself.
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Jay Wilson discussed an idea they were going to toy around with when they released the removal of skill points & the RMAH.
He said they were going to toy with the idea of runes dropping as "Unattuned" runes which basically are gray runes with no visible stats, only a level. Once you put that rune into a skill, it becomes "attuned" to that skill and that skill only. So, a rune put into frenzy is now only usable in frenzy. That rune also will become one of the 5 color runes we already know about (randomly, and gain the effects on that skill) and may gain another couple modifiers, again randomly.
He also discussed the idea of having an artisan able to wipe the rune back to an unattuned state.
Now, if this were to happen, it would make the high level runes you have really important and valuable to the skills they are in, and only those skills. If there's a huge cost to reattune the rune, do you risk re-rolling the rune in a new skill if you like what you have? It's another wealth gaining system, and I personally love the idea. I hope they implement this.
However, if skill switching can be easily and quickly done, then people's "goal" or "static" build can very likely be a character with more than 6 skills. Especially for wizard and witch doctor. Where items have a much lesser affect on their skill effect and damage output than the Barb. It is very likely that a player chooses to have more skills (all maxed) at his/her arsenal to gain advantage.
As I mentioned earlier, back in D2, there were many useful skills that you only needed 1 skill pt in. Now in d3, every skill is maxed, there certainly could be advantages found from having extra skills.
And just to reply to your last paragraph, yes options are nice, but in this case, where blizzard want us to make tough decision of 6 skills out of 20 (the marbles example told by bashiok), allowing players to go well beyond that seems to
go against their original idea. As well if player find advantages to be had for having more skills, then it will likely become a norm, which can cause balancing issues in the future, both in gameplay, and between characters (melee vs castors)
Edit: Lastly to Daylesan, I agree with hard decisions making a game more interesting