Inferno mode doesnt give you a reason to be more powerfull once you can beat it... If i can beat inferno easily, then why do i need better gear?? ..no point.
Thats why its not a end game ...you need something that you can always do better and makes it worth to keep farming for better and better items... PVP usually makes ppl feel like they realy need to become even more strong. Also ensless dungeons could make this happen, so in order to last longer on them you will have to find better gear...and well many things can came to your mind.
Inferno is a good place for end game farming...but not a end game itself.
I think the point of Inferno is to have some sort of prestige among players.
"How far are you in the game".
"I just beat Inferno act 3".
"Cool ^^".
The prestige lies in the fact that you don't level anymore, i.e. get stronger. Only the gear you wear will change.
Ya, but everyone (exept casual players mybe) will beat Inferno sooner or later.. end game is for those who keep playing a lot after the story is done, and those kind of players will beat inferno for sure. And after a few runs it probably wont be that hard, or mybe it will always stay the same hard...so, again, it wont make much sense to keep doing it once you know you can do it, unless its for somthing else...
i played d2 for years after beating the game over and over with every class. and if d2 had an 'inferno' mode it would of made me play even longer. so d3 has plenty of end-game content and there still adding more later, so no worries on that part.
well we can hope they don't reduce the difficulty when people start complaining its so hard, lol
I hope they don't do this, if its too hard just go back and play at Hell difficulty. I remember too playing D2 and after getting rushed to hell, trying to kill that super minion in the first act, rakanishu? was super hard because I wasn't very equipped.
How I see it, it will be end game content and will also promote coop, as monster are a bit harder, but you can kill them faster and use aura to help you survive
Inferno mode doesnt give you a reason to be more powerfull once you can beat it... If i can beat inferno easily, then why do i need better gear?? ..no point.
Thats why its not a end game ...you need something that you can always do better and makes it worth to keep farming for better and better items... PVP usually makes ppl feel like they realy need to become even more strong. Also ensless dungeons could make this happen, so in order to last longer on them you will have to find better gear...and well many things can came to your mind.
Inferno is a good place for end game farming...but not a end game itself.
I think the point of Inferno is to have some sort of prestige among players.
"How far are you in the game".
"I just beat Inferno act 3".
"Cool ^^".
The prestige lies in the fact that you don't level anymore, i.e. get stronger. Only the gear you wear will change.
Ya, but everyone (exept casual players mybe) will beat Inferno sooner or later.. end game is for those who keep playing a lot after the story is done, and those kind of players will beat inferno for sure. And after a few runs it probably wont be that hard, or mybe it will always stay the same hard...so, again, it wont make much sense to keep doing it once you know you can do it, unless its for somthing else...
i played d2 for years after beating the game over and over with every class. and if d2 had an 'inferno' mode it would of made me play even longer. so d3 has plenty of end-game content and there still adding more later, so no worries on that part.
Ya, I also played D2 for many years, since it was released...so what?..
It becomes boring when you play online and you alredy have super gear, you made the game with every build of every class.. what else left to do?..help some noobs..and then there is not much left to do.. unless you are building some char for pvp maybe. We need more challenges all the time...its boring to be god.
Becomes pointless after a while...ya you can always make the game again, but it would be better if you always have something new to unlock and achive, instead of just making the same story over and over again..
This thread is useless, who cares what Sixen's opinions/views on endgame are. He is a human being like everyone else... I'm sure there's plenty of other rando's who would agree. There will never be a solid agreement. my point in all this is, Blizzard will build the game with some intake from the community, the bads QQ and want all of their casual aspects met and usually they are not. Either play the game or shut the hell up, that's my take on it.
This thread is useless, who cares what Sixen's opinions/views on endgame are. He is a human being like everyone else... I'm sure there's plenty of other rando's who would agree. There will never be a solid agreement. my point in all this is, Blizzard will build the game with some intake from the community, the bads QQ and want all of their casual aspects met and usually they are not. Either play the game or shut the hell up, that's my take on it.
This thread is useless, who cares what Sixen's opinions/views on endgame are. He is a human being like everyone else... I'm sure there's plenty of other rando's who would agree. There will never be a solid agreement. my point in all this is, Blizzard will build the game with some intake from the community, the bads QQ and want all of their casual aspects met and usually they are not. Either play the game or shut the hell up, that's my take on it.
For Blizzard to say Inferno is "end-game" does sorta seem like a cheap cop-out. There are literally tons of end-game ideas out there yet they implemented none of them and instead are just adjusting monsters to lvl 61... seems sort of lazy to me.
To me end-game content should be a sort of fun or challenging competitive Test! You shouldn't be still building your character in an end-game, you should be putting your character and skills to the Ultimate Test - Whether it be against other players, a never-ending horde, or an uber boss- it should still push your character to the limit and hopefully, over the limit.
using wow as a comparison because everyone (but mostly about sixen) considers it end game. and in wow "end game" you are still building your character, honing your skills and getting the best gear exactly how inferno is. so i don't see how that point makes inferno not end game when its comparable to heroics and raids like I've pointed out.
Um I didn't say anything about WoW. In fact, I am pretty sure Diablo is Not WoW. I simply defined what an end-game is and said adding a 4th difficulty does not constitute as an end-game. I mean heck! how can Inferno BE the end-game when you have to beat the game all over again. Its like saying the final level in pacman is actually the end-game.
end-game = content after game has ended. Inferno is still the same game.
i didn't say you did mention wow. i was using that as an example for my argument. everyone just thinks about the fact that its another play through it removes any notion that its end game. but thats completely false. but the fact that you have to be MAX level and fairly skilled / geared to get through it, makes it so it IS an end game, if you were still leveling up in inferno, then of course it wouldn't be. but your not, the game is over after your 60 and kill whoever the end boss is in hell, then INFERNO is added as end game for an extra challenge and extra super gear. so in the end, its end-game material. maybe its not the BEST choice but it still is end-game regardless
Im sorry but your logic is flawed. Your saying that because your level 60, Inferno is end-game...that's just terrible logic. You can technically be level 60 when you start hell that doesn't make hell an end-game. And likewise you may not still be leveling up but you are still gaining in power/gear. School analogy: If your taking a nursing class, Inferno is just the final exam of the class its not the next nursing course or nursing internship/job. No matter what, Inferno IS the game just a little bit harder. If you have to play through and beat the game it Cannot also be an end-game. Game and end-game are two different things they aren't supposed to be the same. So sorry, Inferno is still part of the game, just another difficulty.
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Blizzard used to care about releasing Diablo III, then they all took an arrow in the knee...
Im sorry but your logic is flawed. Your saying that because your level 60, Inferno is end-game...that's just terrible logic. You can technically be level 60 when you start hell that doesn't make hell an end-game. And likewise you dont technically have to have the best skill/gear to get through Inferno. No matter what Inferno IS the game just a little bit harder. If you have to play through and beat the game it Cannot also be an end-game. Game and end-game are two different things they aren't supposed to be the same. So sorry, Inferno is still part of the game, just another difficulty.
uhm... considering all end-game for WoW and pretty much any game starts at max level.. id say "everything after max level is end game" is a pretty damn accurate statement. regardless of it being another play through (because thats what diablo is all about, increasing difficulty) it still counts as end game because you have to be max level and beat hell, period. you can argue till your face turns blue but you'd still be wrong. diablo is an ARPG not an MMO. so the MMO idea of end game is completely different then how diablo is. so "its just another play through" isn't a valid point in it not being end-game in diablo's case. which is your ONLY point. lol
This thread is useless, who cares what Sixen's opinions/views on endgame are. He is a human being like everyone else... I'm sure there's plenty of other rando's who would agree. There will never be a solid agreement. my point in all this is, Blizzard will build the game with some intake from the community, the bads QQ and want all of their casual aspects met and usually they are not. Either play the game or shut the hell up, that's my take on it.
angry QQ post about the QQ. lololol
Speaking of rando's
please QQ more, it makes you look so smart blabbering like an angry troll.
WoW end game sustain a strong PvE community because:
1. As the OP said himself, raids demands time because of the logistics. 90% of the WoW community takes months to beat content blizzard is able to make in days, because they have to spend an massive amount of time organizing the guild.
2. The reason above pluss monthly fees makes creating new content to WoW an great deal. They spend relatively little to creat a content that will entertain their public for an large time. So they really have the incentives to creat new content all the time.
Those two things are impossible to happen in D3. Most likely, everything in D3 is soloable - so people will not waste time in logistics. Any new patchable content will be devoured in hours. If D3 communities start to unmake because theres no more content left to play, anything they can creat and put in an patch will surely not solve the problem.
Grinding gear is obsolete, it will not keep people playing D3 for long time. It only works in WoW because every 2 months theres new gear to be grinded and the ordinary player takes around 2 months to organize and raid, so the wheel can keep spinning at proper rate. Diablo updates will take years (expansions) and people will problably dry out the game in weeks.
What kept D2 alive wasn't gear grind either... It was 4 things:
Blizz did not invest in any of those points for D3.
To be honest I don't think Blizz cares. D3 won't be long lived and thats fine. Anyone who followed D3 since 2008 knows that their main concern was "the first play through". See the reason behind many of the recent system changes: Jay Wilsom bases himself in the psychology of someone playing the game for the first time - he don't design the system taking in consideration people will search for guides in the internet, for example.
They just want to make a good game. It doesn't matter if people play only 50 hours of it, as long as they play 50 memmorable hours.
WoW end game sustain a strong PvE community because:
1. As the OP said himself, raids demands time because of the logistics. 90% of the WoW community takes months to beat content blizzard is able to make in days, because they have to spend an massive amount of time organizing the guild.
2. The reason above pluss monthly fees makes creating new content to WoW an great deal. They spend relatively little to creat a content that will entertain their public for an large time. So they really have the incentives to creat new content all the time.
Those two things are impossible to happen in D3. Most likely, everything in D3 is soloable - so people will not waste time in logistics. Any new patchable content will be devoured in hours. If D3 communities start to unmake because theres no more content left to play, anything they can creat and put in an patch will surely not solve the problem.
Grinding gear is obsolete, it will not keep people playing D3 for long time. It only works in WoW because every 2 months theres new gear to be grinded and the ordinary player takes around 2 months to organize and raid, so the wheel can keep spinning at proper rate. Diablo updates will take years (expansions) and people will problably dry out the game in weeks.
What kept D2 alive wasn't gear grind either... It was 4 things:
Blizz did not invest in any of those points for D3.
To be honest I don't think Blizz cares. D3 won't be long lived and thats fine. Anyone who followed D3 since 2008 knows that their main concern was "the first play through". See the reason behind many of the recent system changes: Jay Wilsom bases himself in the psychology of someone playing the game for the first time - he don't design the system taking in consideration people will search for guides in the internet, for example.
They just want to make a good game. It doesn't matter if people play only 50 hours of it, as long as they play 50 memmorable hours.
amazing post i have to say, and great points. although me and my friends played d2 for years just for the gear grinding and play through. it was very fun to lay waste to monsters over and over with crazy spells and spending hours trading and mfing for the best gear, i loved doing this so d3 is MORE then enough for me to play for many many months. but for a lot of people like you said it will be like how an xbox game is, you play it through two or three times maybe and then your done, go buy another game. but as far as I'm concerned this game has everything i could of hoped for.
and they will certainly add more content, and even if its grinding content thats solo able thats fine, i can do it 5 times over with all the classes and play this and sc2 at the same time and when I've finally got the best gear for all 5 of my characters, and played a bit more THEN ill be bored, go back to some other games, and then come back to d3 like i always went back to d2 over and over again to play.
amazing post i have to say, and great points. although me and my friends played d2 for years just for the gear grinding and play through. it was very fun to lay waste to monsters over and over with crazy spells and spending hours trading and mfing for the best gear, i loved doing this so d3 is MORE then enough for me to play for many many months. but for a lot of people like you said it will be like how an xbox game is, you play it through two or three times maybe and then your done, go buy another game. but as far as I'm concerned this game has everything i could of hoped for.
and they will certainly add more content, and even if its grinding content thats solo able thats fine, i can do it 5 times over with all the classes and play this and sc2 at the same time and when I've finally got the best gear for all 5 of my characters, and played a bit more THEN ill be bored, go back to some other games, and then come back to d3 like i always went back to d2 over and over again to play.
#1. That's any game.
#2. Maybe you should find another hobby.
All this debate about "end-game content" in general just shows one thing: lots of people are always more worried about what's at the end of the rainbow road than in the journey itself.
End-game for me means repeteable content at the end of the story even though you have beaten the final boss/said story.
In Final Fantasy VII, to me, it was beating the hardest "Weapon"-type enemy (Emerald Weapon imho) and getting all the best weapons for all characters, in FFVIII it was gearing up to defeat Omega Weapon. In Super Mario RPG it was defeating Culex. In Chrono Cross it was playing New Game+ and getting all the 40+ characters. Basically, something that isn't necessary but adds to the journey when you don't want to end it.
In D2, to me, it was "getting better items to some other character (mine or a friend's)" or "getting items to make my character change roles". Fighting Baal 100 times and fighting for loot, and knowing I woulnd't be able to enter Uber Tristram unless I was a Hammerdin fully-specced was hardly "fun end-game content" imho.
I'm sure in D3, with the current skill system, end-game will be about playing in Inferno mode and actually not dying 100 times on every dungeon (by improving precision, tactics against specific enemies or groups/sets of enemies) and getting gear for different "character specs"; and then when you're bored of that, playing a new character. That's what "end-game" will be for me.
Adding new dungeons and items is hardly "end-game" for me, it's just "continued content". It just adds to the "common path the developers planned". Replayability and "grinding" (when it's actually fun unlike in WoW IMHO) are my end-game content.
I don't know why everyone is so worried about endgame; Diablo 1 and 2 didn't really have any proper endgame beyond loot farming and PVP, which was essentially player-driven and not facilitated by Blizzard in any meaningful way.
It is already apparent than they are thinking more about endgame content in D3 than they ever did in D1/2. So why is everyone worried about it? It's an ARPG, not an MMORPG. We should be thankful that they are thinking about endgame stuff at all. I think stuff like bonus, hard-mode dungeons and bosses would be fun. But ARPGs as a genre have never been heavy on post-game content. Any such content that they implement in D3 will be groundbreaking for the genre.
Let me put this short and simple so that everyone can understand.
Content that was already in hell mode was taken from hell mode and slapped into a fourth difficulty. The only difference from this difficulty and the other 3 leveling grind difficulties of the game is, yup you guessed it, you're no longer leveling and it's slightly more difficult and less rewarding, in that you tediously now have to play through (basically) the same content over, and over, and over, and over. In other words, if Inferno didn't exist then bosses/areas in hell would have been the end game.
Comparing diablo 3 to wow is fine by me, as wow was one of the models influencing the game, as a huge blizzard RPG title/learning experience. Wow did it right. Once you played through the game (The Leveling Content) you then could enter into the endgame, or the new areas of the game that actually mattered like heroic and new dungeons constantly, new raids, new boss firsts, and most importantly (but not mentioned enough) PvP.
PvP is a huge source of end game content that is being nearly completely brushed aside, and I feel that it's unfortunate giving everything else I bothered mentioning in this post. At least it will be in the game, but it's not facilitated by blizzard making it more of an afterthought and slap in the face for the people who have enjoyed the competitiveness and replayability of the last 7 or so years of blizzard titles.
After Jay went through the trouble saying they would never balance pvm around pvp, it was my impression that they'd make the pvm play through kick ass, even better than that of wow, which did both pve and pvp well, with a thriving end game that keeps players paying years after their characters reach the initial max level, max gear, and max skill cap.
I'm glad that inferno exists (instead of farming specific bosses in hell), but only very, very slightly. I'll be forced to play through the same content over and over without a purpose/reason. What's the point of having the best gear in a PvM game if I can already beat all the content....
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i played d2 for years after beating the game over and over with every class. and if d2 had an 'inferno' mode it would of made me play even longer. so d3 has plenty of end-game content and there still adding more later, so no worries on that part.
I hope they don't do this, if its too hard just go back and play at Hell difficulty. I remember too playing D2 and after getting rushed to hell, trying to kill that super minion in the first act, rakanishu? was super hard because I wasn't very equipped.
How I see it, it will be end game content and will also promote coop, as monster are a bit harder, but you can kill them faster and use aura to help you survive
Ya, I also played D2 for many years, since it was released...so what?..
It becomes boring when you play online and you alredy have super gear, you made the game with every build of every class.. what else left to do?..help some noobs..and then there is not much left to do.. unless you are building some char for pvp maybe. We need more challenges all the time...its boring to be god.
Becomes pointless after a while...ya you can always make the game again, but it would be better if you always have something new to unlock and achive, instead of just making the same story over and over again..
angry QQ post about the QQ. lololol
Speaking of rando's
Im sorry but your logic is flawed. Your saying that because your level 60, Inferno is end-game...that's just terrible logic. You can technically be level 60 when you start hell that doesn't make hell an end-game. And likewise you may not still be leveling up but you are still gaining in power/gear. School analogy: If your taking a nursing class, Inferno is just the final exam of the class its not the next nursing course or nursing internship/job. No matter what, Inferno IS the game just a little bit harder. If you have to play through and beat the game it Cannot also be an end-game. Game and end-game are two different things they aren't supposed to be the same. So sorry, Inferno is still part of the game, just another difficulty.
uhm... considering all end-game for WoW and pretty much any game starts at max level.. id say "everything after max level is end game" is a pretty damn accurate statement. regardless of it being another play through (because thats what diablo is all about, increasing difficulty) it still counts as end game because you have to be max level and beat hell, period. you can argue till your face turns blue but you'd still be wrong. diablo is an ARPG not an MMO. so the MMO idea of end game is completely different then how diablo is. so "its just another play through" isn't a valid point in it not being end-game in diablo's case. which is your ONLY point. lol
please QQ more, it makes you look so smart blabbering like an angry troll.
you epic fail at posting an image and it shows how bad you are retard. lmfao
1. As the OP said himself, raids demands time because of the logistics. 90% of the WoW community takes months to beat content blizzard is able to make in days, because they have to spend an massive amount of time organizing the guild.
2. The reason above pluss monthly fees makes creating new content to WoW an great deal. They spend relatively little to creat a content that will entertain their public for an large time. So they really have the incentives to creat new content all the time.
Those two things are impossible to happen in D3. Most likely, everything in D3 is soloable - so people will not waste time in logistics. Any new patchable content will be devoured in hours. If D3 communities start to unmake because theres no more content left to play, anything they can creat and put in an patch will surely not solve the problem.
Grinding gear is obsolete, it will not keep people playing D3 for long time. It only works in WoW because every 2 months theres new gear to be grinded and the ordinary player takes around 2 months to organize and raid, so the wheel can keep spinning at proper rate. Diablo updates will take years (expansions) and people will problably dry out the game in weeks.
What kept D2 alive wasn't gear grind either... It was 4 things:
1. Ladder competition.
2. PvP
3. Alternative PvE (ironman)
4. Mods
Blizz did not invest in any of those points for D3.
To be honest I don't think Blizz cares. D3 won't be long lived and thats fine. Anyone who followed D3 since 2008 knows that their main concern was "the first play through". See the reason behind many of the recent system changes: Jay Wilsom bases himself in the psychology of someone playing the game for the first time - he don't design the system taking in consideration people will search for guides in the internet, for example.
They just want to make a good game. It doesn't matter if people play only 50 hours of it, as long as they play 50 memmorable hours.
amazing post i have to say, and great points. although me and my friends played d2 for years just for the gear grinding and play through. it was very fun to lay waste to monsters over and over with crazy spells and spending hours trading and mfing for the best gear, i loved doing this so d3 is MORE then enough for me to play for many many months. but for a lot of people like you said it will be like how an xbox game is, you play it through two or three times maybe and then your done, go buy another game. but as far as I'm concerned this game has everything i could of hoped for.
and they will certainly add more content, and even if its grinding content thats solo able thats fine, i can do it 5 times over with all the classes and play this and sc2 at the same time and when I've finally got the best gear for all 5 of my characters, and played a bit more THEN ill be bored, go back to some other games, and then come back to d3 like i always went back to d2 over and over again to play.
#1. That's any game.
#2. Maybe you should find another hobby.
End-game for me means repeteable content at the end of the story even though you have beaten the final boss/said story.
In Final Fantasy VII, to me, it was beating the hardest "Weapon"-type enemy (Emerald Weapon imho) and getting all the best weapons for all characters, in FFVIII it was gearing up to defeat Omega Weapon. In Super Mario RPG it was defeating Culex. In Chrono Cross it was playing New Game+ and getting all the 40+ characters. Basically, something that isn't necessary but adds to the journey when you don't want to end it.
In D2, to me, it was "getting better items to some other character (mine or a friend's)" or "getting items to make my character change roles". Fighting Baal 100 times and fighting for loot, and knowing I woulnd't be able to enter Uber Tristram unless I was a Hammerdin fully-specced was hardly "fun end-game content" imho.
I'm sure in D3, with the current skill system, end-game will be about playing in Inferno mode and actually not dying 100 times on every dungeon (by improving precision, tactics against specific enemies or groups/sets of enemies) and getting gear for different "character specs"; and then when you're bored of that, playing a new character. That's what "end-game" will be for me.
Adding new dungeons and items is hardly "end-game" for me, it's just "continued content". It just adds to the "common path the developers planned". Replayability and "grinding" (when it's actually fun unlike in WoW IMHO) are my end-game content.
It is already apparent than they are thinking more about endgame content in D3 than they ever did in D1/2. So why is everyone worried about it? It's an ARPG, not an MMORPG. We should be thankful that they are thinking about endgame stuff at all. I think stuff like bonus, hard-mode dungeons and bosses would be fun. But ARPGs as a genre have never been heavy on post-game content. Any such content that they implement in D3 will be groundbreaking for the genre.
Content that was already in hell mode was taken from hell mode and slapped into a fourth difficulty. The only difference from this difficulty and the other 3 leveling grind difficulties of the game is, yup you guessed it, you're no longer leveling and it's slightly more difficult and less rewarding, in that you tediously now have to play through (basically) the same content over, and over, and over, and over. In other words, if Inferno didn't exist then bosses/areas in hell would have been the end game.
Comparing diablo 3 to wow is fine by me, as wow was one of the models influencing the game, as a huge blizzard RPG title/learning experience. Wow did it right. Once you played through the game (The Leveling Content) you then could enter into the endgame, or the new areas of the game that actually mattered like heroic and new dungeons constantly, new raids, new boss firsts, and most importantly (but not mentioned enough) PvP.
PvP is a huge source of end game content that is being nearly completely brushed aside, and I feel that it's unfortunate giving everything else I bothered mentioning in this post. At least it will be in the game, but it's not facilitated by blizzard making it more of an afterthought and slap in the face for the people who have enjoyed the competitiveness and replayability of the last 7 or so years of blizzard titles.
I'm glad that inferno exists (instead of farming specific bosses in hell), but only very, very slightly. I'll be forced to play through the same content over and over without a purpose/reason. What's the point of having the best gear in a PvM game if I can already beat all the content....