Since we now know the damage increase per MP level, I wanted to update my EHP table in my spreadsheet and have copied the table and pasted below to share with the community. I likely won't add it to my spreadsheet until 1.0.5 goes live though, so this is more like a preview that people can use while gearing for the next patch.
All the damage and EHP values are in terms of thousands, so the FA threshold for MP3 is 111.1 K EHP. The calculations were made with the assumptions that the damage of level 63 normal mobs back before 1.0.4 was 127.23k. I think it was 1.0.4 that introcuded a 15% nerf, making the new damage 127.23*(1-0.15). In 1.0.5 they said they were reducing damage by 25%, so I assumed that was MP0 damage, thus the new damage is 127.23*(1-0.15)*(1-0.25) = 81.1k damage. Finally, I assumed the elite damage is 25% greater than normal mobs.
This does not include special attacks that do excess damage like Tremor smashes. I don't recall how much more damage they do compared to other normal mobs, but if I find the info, or if anyone has a link to the relavent discussion, I can update the table to add a row for Tremors.
To use the table, the FA threshold is the min EHP you want to have, with Force Armor active, to make optimal use of the force armor rune. Raising your EHP above that has minimal affect until you reach the PA breakpoint, at which point PA will give better survivability against elite attacks. Switching before the breakpoint is a personal call as you'll gain some extra resists to electricity, damage reflect, or other attacks besides direct attacks from elites. Note that the breakpoint is your EHP with PA active.
Table 1: Assumed MP0 is 25% less damage than live, based on blue post stating expected decrease in damage.
MP
0
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
Damage Modifier
1
1.14
1.3
1.48
1.69
1.93
2.2
2.5
2.85
3.25
3.71
White Mob Dmg
81.1
92.5
105.4
120.0
137.1
156.5
178.4
202.8
231.2
263.6
300.9
Elite Mob Damage
101.4
115.6
131.8
150.1
171.3
195.7
223.1
253.5
289.0
329.5
376.1
FA Threshold
75.1
85.6
97.6
111.1
126.9
144.9
165.2
187.8
214.0
244.1
278.6
Prismatic Breakeven
304.2
346.7
395.4
450.2
514.0
587.0
669.2
760.4
866.9
988.5
1128.4
Table 2: Assumed MP0 is 50% less damage than live, based on data provided by GT4, see post 15 for more details.
MP
0
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
Damage Modifier
1
1.14
1.3
1.48
1.69
1.93
2.2
2.5
2.85
3.25
3.71
White Mob Dmg
54.1
61.6
70.3
80.0
91.4
104.4
119.0
135.2
154.1
175.7
200.6
Elite Mob Damage
67.6 \77.1
87.9
100.0
114.2
130.5
148.7
169.0
192.6
219.7
250.8
FA Threshold
50.1
57.1
65.1
74.1
84.6 \96.6
110.1
125.2
142.7
162.7
185.7
Prismatic Breakeven
202.8
231.2
263.6
300.1
342.7
391.4
446.1
506.9
577.9
659.0
752.3
EDIT: Added a second table based on the data collected by GT4 which implies damage of MP0 is actually about 50% less than on live.
Let me see if I'm reading these numbers correctly: On MP1 from 75k EHP and up it is better to move from FA to PA and from 304.2 stop using PA and switching to somehting like SA or PPB.
Is this right or I'm misundertanding what you are trying to convey?
I suppose I should have clarified a bit. The PA Threshold is the EHP you would need with PA for it to be as effective against an elite hit as FA, so at MP1, you want to have at least 85.6k EHP to make full use of FA against elites. When you can reach 346.7k EHP with PA, then you're better of switching to it, but until then, or shortly below that, FA is likely to be more optimal.
So only ~ 35 wizards on the whole world should use prismatic armor on mp10 right now and the rest of us would be better off using FA? Thus even while using PA they could only withstand less than 3 attacks with 1+ million ehp?
Seems like it. The mobs do 370% of the damage on live at MP10 so for most wizards Force Armor is the way to go at mid to high MP levels.
So only ~ 35 wizards on the whole world should use prismatic armor on mp10 right now and the rest of us would be better off using FA? Thus even while using PA they could only withstand less than 3 attacks with 1+ million ehp?
About that many wizards in the world would be able to farm MP10 somewhat effectively at this point anyway. On this note - a well built CM wizard could become an effective 'tank', combining a party with 2-3 other players that are able to pull 200+k DPS, they will just have to literally DPS targets that are standing still...
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
So only ~ 35 wizards on the whole world should use prismatic armor on mp10 right now and the rest of us would be better off using FA? Thus even while using PA they could only withstand less than 3 attacks with 1+ million ehp?
Oh, diabloprogress stats are unbuffed, so that doesn't even include the bonus from energy armor. Those 35 wizards are about the probably the few who would be able to try a shocking aspects build while others could still get away with pinpoint barrier if the armor bonus raised their EHP above the PA threshold, or if they just felt that surving 2 hits and dying to the 3rd is fine. That cuts the PA threshold by almost 1/3.
In general, you need to look at your EHP with the respective buffs you'll have, which includes cross class buffs if you plan to play in a group.
Your assumption of a 25% damage decrease in MP0 is wrong. That's merely what, according to their blog post, would be the minimal amount of damage decrease required for players using the nerfed abilities to stay just as survivable. However, MP0 is supposed to be easier than 1.04, so damage is further decreased.
My tests so far have been both conclusive and non-conclusive:
I've done several comparisons of 1.04 and PTR MP0 damage (no passives, no followers, no damage reducing abilities) in A3 and basically it has come down to normal enemies doing exactly half the damage (this was conclusive for minimum and maximum hits among ~200 hits each using Demon Troopers). However I also tested Ghom's cloud (comparing the very first ticks since damage ramps up) and Diablo's fire zone (constant damage among all ticks so easy to compare) and those have been doing only ~35% of the damage they'd do on live servers.
Because of self-healing I was using a Monk with ~3k armor and ~600 AR for those tests (exactly same values on live and PTR obviously, I double checked) so the additional 30% less damage taken by AoEs compared to live servers *may* have to do with the inherent 30% damage reduction being bugged on either live servers or PTRs.
I just looked over the official PTR patch notes and they mention reducing health and damage of mobs levels 50-63 but don't specify how much, which is unfortunate. The 25% used is the value they gave as an estimate to what they'll do so I'm not surprised if it's not completely correct.
Do you have the data for how much damage you took per hit, as well as your stats at the time? With that information I could calculate the base damage and update the table if it's off by that much.
I've been considering switching my gems from int to vita and running storm armor shocking aspect on my cm wiz. Judging by these results though i may be better off just stacking more int and using energy armor. Is it even possible to hit the ehp threshold to survive without energy armor on mp10 or is that just a silly goal? My assumption was trading int for vita and allowing me to take additional hits with storm armor would still net me more dps than the additional int and energy armor
I've been considering switching my gems from int to vita and running storm armor shocking aspect on my cm wiz. Judging by these results though i may be better off just stacking more int and using energy armor. Is it even possible to hit the ehp threshold to survive without energy armor on mp10 or is that just a silly goal? My assumption was trading int for vita and allowing me to take additional hits with storm armor would still net me more dps than the additional int and energy armor
for MP10 I think its a bit silly, Ive heard of people(with lots of mitigation) who tried to run shocking aspect in MP10, they were getting one shotted in many instances, so force armor is probably better, also shocking aspect wont proc as much with WW(12,5% proc rate) as it does with SC on live(50% proc rate), so shocking aspect wont deal as much damage unless you have the likes of 3.0 Attack speed or higher, in which case I doubt youll have enough mitigation to run around in MP10 with storm armor....
Thanks for the information. Like you said it's right around 50%, but I have a few quick questions.
Are your resists and armor the same on live as PTR? I don't know much about monks so I'm not sure how their buffs are being changed in the next patch. Also, just to be sure, did you use a shield or have any gear with melee reduction?
I could try testing myself on live but I don't have much regen and I would die in just a couple hits.
I figured that was the case, but I just wanted to make sure. Again, thanks for the information. I have updated the OP with a second table using the 50% damage reduction implied by your data collection. If you get bored and decide to collect any more data from other mobs, please feel free to post the results here.
The only other test I can think of is to check the damage on say MP5. Based on the results I would expect MP5 to be about the same damage as now.
While the mob damage has been nerfed, I haven't updated the tables yet, mostly because I haven't gotten around to it, but also because I still don't really know the base damage yet, so either table is mostly just an approximation. Based on my current experience, Prismatic Armor giving me 400-450k EHP seems to work very well at MP7, for whatever that's worth.
If anyone has any information about mob base damage, I'd love to see it so I can make the table more accurate.
To be honest, I don't think the table is very accurate anymore. I haven't been able to get any clear findings for mob base damage, which is what the original comparison was based on. About the best I can do now is edit the table based on Mag's swarm attack that does around 280k damage on MP10 before mitigation.
I'd say force armor for Ubers MP8-10 is fine, prismatic or pinpoint for farming MP0-8 or so should be fine. Switch to prismatic if needed or use Force Armor if you're getting 1-2 shot by things.
EDIT: Also, I never updated the table after the MP damage reduction, so those values are much higher than needed. I just wish there was an easy way to import a table from Excel into the forums here without having to completely reformat all the spacings. Would let me update it in like 20s instead of taking 20 min, which is why I havent done it.
EDIT: Also, I never updated the table after the MP damage reduction, so those values are much higher than needed. I just wish there was an easy way to import a table from Excel into the forums here without having to completely reformat all the spacings. Would let me update it in like 20s instead of taking 20 min, which is why I havent done it.
Take a screenshot and post an image link instead of formatting a table in forum text?
All the damage and EHP values are in terms of thousands, so the FA threshold for MP3 is 111.1 K EHP. The calculations were made with the assumptions that the damage of level 63 normal mobs back before 1.0.4 was 127.23k. I think it was 1.0.4 that introcuded a 15% nerf, making the new damage 127.23*(1-0.15). In 1.0.5 they said they were reducing damage by 25%, so I assumed that was MP0 damage, thus the new damage is 127.23*(1-0.15)*(1-0.25) = 81.1k damage. Finally, I assumed the elite damage is 25% greater than normal mobs.
This does not include special attacks that do excess damage like Tremor smashes. I don't recall how much more damage they do compared to other normal mobs, but if I find the info, or if anyone has a link to the relavent discussion, I can update the table to add a row for Tremors.
To use the table, the FA threshold is the min EHP you want to have, with Force Armor active, to make optimal use of the force armor rune. Raising your EHP above that has minimal affect until you reach the PA breakpoint, at which point PA will give better survivability against elite attacks. Switching before the breakpoint is a personal call as you'll gain some extra resists to electricity, damage reflect, or other attacks besides direct attacks from elites. Note that the breakpoint is your EHP with PA active.
Table 1: Assumed MP0 is 25% less damage than live, based on blue post stating expected decrease in damage.
Table 2: Assumed MP0 is 50% less damage than live, based on data provided by GT4, see post 15 for more details.
EDIT: Added a second table based on the data collected by GT4 which implies damage of MP0 is actually about 50% less than on live.
Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders
My Wizard
Is this right or I'm misundertanding what you are trying to convey?
Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders
My Wizard
Seems like it. The mobs do 370% of the damage on live at MP10 so for most wizards Force Armor is the way to go at mid to high MP levels.
Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders
My Wizard
About that many wizards in the world would be able to farm MP10 somewhat effectively at this point anyway. On this note - a well built CM wizard could become an effective 'tank', combining a party with 2-3 other players that are able to pull 200+k DPS, they will just have to literally DPS targets that are standing still...
Oh, diabloprogress stats are unbuffed, so that doesn't even include the bonus from energy armor. Those 35 wizards are about the probably the few who would be able to try a shocking aspects build while others could still get away with pinpoint barrier if the armor bonus raised their EHP above the PA threshold, or if they just felt that surving 2 hits and dying to the 3rd is fine. That cuts the PA threshold by almost 1/3.
In general, you need to look at your EHP with the respective buffs you'll have, which includes cross class buffs if you plan to play in a group.
Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders
My Wizard
Not that I'm going to be farming MP10 with an Archon build, anyway. Or farm MP10 at all.
Armory | YouTube | Twitter | Clan Site
I just looked over the official PTR patch notes and they mention reducing health and damage of mobs levels 50-63 but don't specify how much, which is unfortunate. The 25% used is the value they gave as an estimate to what they'll do so I'm not surprised if it's not completely correct.
Do you have the data for how much damage you took per hit, as well as your stats at the time? With that information I could calculate the base damage and update the table if it's off by that much.
Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders
My Wizard
for MP10 I think its a bit silly, Ive heard of people(with lots of mitigation) who tried to run shocking aspect in MP10, they were getting one shotted in many instances, so force armor is probably better, also shocking aspect wont proc as much with WW(12,5% proc rate) as it does with SC on live(50% proc rate), so shocking aspect wont deal as much damage unless you have the likes of 3.0 Attack speed or higher, in which case I doubt youll have enough mitigation to run around in MP10 with storm armor....
Are your resists and armor the same on live as PTR? I don't know much about monks so I'm not sure how their buffs are being changed in the next patch. Also, just to be sure, did you use a shield or have any gear with melee reduction?
I could try testing myself on live but I don't have much regen and I would die in just a couple hits.
Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders
My Wizard
The only other test I can think of is to check the damage on say MP5. Based on the results I would expect MP5 to be about the same damage as now.
Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders
My Wizard
If anyone has any information about mob base damage, I'd love to see it so I can make the table more accurate.
Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders
My Wizard
I've been using force armor for mp7-10 uber runs.
I'd say force armor for Ubers MP8-10 is fine, prismatic or pinpoint for farming MP0-8 or so should be fine. Switch to prismatic if needed or use Force Armor if you're getting 1-2 shot by things.
EDIT: Also, I never updated the table after the MP damage reduction, so those values are much higher than needed. I just wish there was an easy way to import a table from Excel into the forums here without having to completely reformat all the spacings. Would let me update it in like 20s instead of taking 20 min, which is why I havent done it.
Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders
My Wizard
Take a screenshot and post an image link instead of formatting a table in forum text?