Less Customization?!?
A Few Billion builds >>>>> A couple Cookie cutter builds.
If rune selection is the only mechanic for "builds" then we certainly will have a huge number of them, with almost all of them being viable choices, but how many of those builds are really different from the rest? How many of those choices will alter the way you play that class? And if this many options would be good, wouldn't even more be better if you actually had to choose just 6 skills as well?
People who don't want to think about skill selection still aren't going to think about it if they can swap skills on the fly vs if they have to pick 6 and stick with it. They will either just pick their 6 favorite skills from leveling, or they will lookup the cookie cutter builds online and go with whatever set of skills and runes that somebody told them was the best setup.
Who are these people who do not want to think about skill selection? Where is this imaginary straw man located exactly?
Yah, because stats was an awesome system that added variety. Its not like every experienced player just allotted the required stats to wear their gear and then dumped the rest into 1-2 stats. Ohh wait, that is exactly what happened. So that means the VARIETY you are talking about is allowing the new players to totally fk up their toon, while the veteran players get the maximum potential from stat allocation. Skills worked the same way.
That may be what you define variety as, but to me, that is defined as ensuring an unfair advantage to boost your ego.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
One is never hurt by being given additional choices, only by taking them away. A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
"And as far as noobs screwing up, and veterans getting the maximum potential out of their characters - that is how games are supposed to be, it is called a learning curve."
These words are full of wisdom, heed them well.
To add to that, if noobs don't like screwing up their build, there's a simple solution, do your research(know what each stat actually does, before throwing points into it).
It's not even difficult, It's called common sense for crying out loud.
"And as far as noobs screwing up, and veterans getting the maximum potential out of their characters - that is how games are supposed to be, it is called a learning curve."
These words are full of wisdom, heed them well.
To add to that, if noobs don't like screwing up their build, there's a simple solution, do your research(know what each stat actually does, before throwing points into it).
It's not even difficult, It's called common sense for crying out loud.
Yes, you're for punishing people for not making their homeworks... -on a game-...
"And as far as noobs screwing up, and veterans getting the maximum potential out of their characters - that is how games are supposed to be, it is called a learning curve."
These words are full of wisdom, heed them well.
To add to that, if noobs don't like screwing up their build, there's a simple solution, do your research(know what each stat actually does, before throwing points into it).
It's not even difficult, It's called common sense for crying out loud.
Yes, you're for punishing people for not making their homeworks... -on a game-...
Yeah, no thanks.
Sorry forgot how lazy new school gamers have become, that taking a measily 3 min to learn how a game works, is a drag(you don't even need to copy build to make viable builds).
Hell in RO I'm a Legend for creating a unique Rogue Build(rogues are squighy, yet mine is a MvP build rogue, which is deemed to be impossible to make). I had no stat resets, and only 1 skill reset which cost 15$(that's r/l money, and you are complaining about a delay, give me a break), and it was my first rogue ever made, yet I did that, the impossible(I beat things with my nontranse rogue, that many people need to be a high lv trans char to handle or be in a huge party).
Being my first Rogue, and making a unique build(which everyone thought was impossible, so I sure didn't get any help), all I had to go on, was basic knowledge of how the game works, which takes literally seconds to grasp.
Diablo sure Isn't much different in that respect(learn how the stats work, and you're good to go, at very least, you wont screw up big enough to make your char unviable).
The same goes for skills, and any other main system that requires thought.
You're another one of those -tough guys- that think everybody has to take it as hard and deep as they do.
So don't come in here trying to lecture me about how lazy my generation, whichever it is, is.
The very fact that you started that post of yours with an attack on people that aren't "you" tells me a lot about you. Heck, you seem to accept having to pay 15$ to fix a screw up when a game should not punish you that heavily for something like that.
I don't care what this immediate debate is about, I'm even happy with how Diablo 2 is now (with respecs), still giving meaning to how you build your characters but giving more freedom, and not punishing people by making them start ALL over cause "you messed up, you deserve it".
Really, its all a question of limits, and you seem to care for none.
You're another one of those -tough guys- that think everybody has to take it as hard and deep as they do.
So don't come in here trying to lecture me about how lazy my generation, whichever it is, is.
The very fact that you started that post of yours with an attack on people that aren't "you" tells me a lot about you. Heck, you seem to accept having to pay 15$ to fix a screw up when a game should not punish you that heavily for something like that.
I don't care what this immediate debate is about, I'm even happy with how Diablo 2 is now (with respecs), still giving meaning to how you build your characters but giving more freedom, and not punishing people by making them start ALL over cause "you messed up, you deserve it".
Really, its all a question of limits, and you seem to care for none.
You missed the point, I openly admit I made a mistake(minor one, but neverless a mistake), and you call me on pride... Um wouldn't that be swallowing my pride?
Well anyway, the point is, systems shouldn't be removed, and the game shouldn't hold your hand to prevent you from making mistakes, if you make a mistake due to ignorance or make a mistake while purposely trying to do something new, you better be willing to pay the price.
Also incase you missed the moral of the events, I succeeded in making something with very few mistakes(the reason for the skill reset was for a measly 3 points I wasn't happy with, so it was a personal decision, not a must, since having a slightly less then perfect build, bothers me), just because I knew the basics(which is something everyone should know anyway).
Kind've throws your "oh no, I need to do homework" arguement out the window, huh
You're another one of those -tough guys- that think everybody has to take it as hard and deep as they do.
So don't come in here trying to lecture me about how lazy my generation, whichever it is, is.
The very fact that you started that post of yours with an attack on people that aren't "you" tells me a lot about you. Heck, you seem to accept having to pay 15$ to fix a screw up when a game should not punish you that heavily for something like that.
I don't care what this immediate debate is about, I'm even happy with how Diablo 2 is now (with respecs), still giving meaning to how you build your characters but giving more freedom, and not punishing people by making them start ALL over cause "you messed up, you deserve it".
Really, its all a question of limits, and you seem to care for none.
If you want a game of limits, try chess.
The perfect strategy game.
I still want to know how allowing players to change skills, hurts you or alters your game play?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
One is never hurt by being given additional choices, only by taking them away. A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
why are people asking for restriction in the first place? i mean they are asking for it right now, but when a new game comes along and lets say blizzard does make the change in what ever way, this new game has what was originally intended for diablo, then everyone says. Oh thats unique, kinda wish diablo had that kind of feature.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Went outside today, the graphics were ok. But the gameplay sucked
Hell in RO I'm a Legend for creating a unique Rogue Build(rogues are squighy, yet mine is a MvP build rogue, which is deemed to be impossible to make). I had no stat resets, and only 1 skill reset which cost 15$(that's r/l money, and you are complaining about a delay, give me a break), and it was my first rogue ever made, yet I did that, the impossible(I beat things with my nontranse rogue, that many people need to be a high lv trans char to handle or be in a huge party).
I really wish you had not said this. Sigh...
The only one who cares about you being a Legend is you. Again it comes down to you wanting to be THE ONE who discovers THE ULTIMATE BUILD and to do that of couse you need builds, you need the game to make respecs difficult, you need the noobs to come in play the game and leave because it is too hard.
All I and many others want is a fun game we can lose hours into. And if it is a really fun game, obsess us for several months or longer. We don't give a shit who created what build first, or what guild were the first to defeat the uber heroic instance.
So again to answer the original question, Respec solution? I don't see a need for any respec solution with the current system in beta. It looks fun and if some crazy wants and is able to switch skills on the fly in Inferno without getting killed, more power to him. Him killing the boss affects me not a single bit, I've got my own loot drops.
On the topic of skill switching using mod's, I'll let blizzard decide if that's cheating. And I'll accept it if they put in a rule of only allowing respecs in towns. As long as I get the option to change from using Electrocute, to Hydra, to Arcane Orb, to Blizzard and experiment with all the skills or switch things up on occassion, I'm happy.
I still want to know how allowing players to change skills, hurts you or alters your game play?
Because we can't have limits on me and not on you; self imposed limits do not work.
I can't just go around pretending I can't swap skills around when needed.
If I fail to swap skills intelligently to min/max each boss, I'm the weakest link, because I want to play my character in a customized way.
Barb, why u no go tank?
Monk, why no elemental resist runed protection aura?
/kick
By having unlimited skill swaps in the game, you make skill swapping a part of the game.
By restricting skill swaps, you remove skill swaps from being a part of how you play.
Do you really find moving skills to and from your skill bar fun?
Of course we can...
You can make up your own limitations and challenge yourself. One of the reasons, I never played Hardcore, is because I like to test the limits of myself and my characters. I will run straight into an enormous group of mobs, just to see if I can pull if off. And if I die, I recalculate my strategy and try again.
You can set your own limitations, exceed them, and become better for it. However, by adding in arbitrary limits, you also lose something in return. That is of course completely unavoidable. For example, I lose the ability to play hardcore mode of D2 & D3.
There is absolutely nothing stopping you from picking 6 skills and keeping them forever. If you need some arbitrary rule to instill your personal set limits, then you are not trying hard enough or do not actually care. And that is not the fault of the other 5 million people who want to play the game another way.
No one is ever hurt by given additional choices, only by taking them away.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
One is never hurt by being given additional choices, only by taking them away. A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
You can either play with only 6 skills, or you can play with 20.
You have that choice. Blizzard is not forcing you to use other skills, and you can easily beat the game without doing so.
This roles of the forced play style that you talk about are completely reversed.
If you take away the choice to swap skills, you are forcing millions, who want swappable skills, to play the way you want.
No one is ever hurt by given additional choices, only by taking them away.
I think I will make that my signature...its pretty good.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
One is never hurt by being given additional choices, only by taking them away. A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
If you take away the choice to swap skills, you are forcing millions, who want swappable skills, to play the way you want.
citation needed :::cough bs::::
You mean your preference.
And sure, you can drive a car with your feet if you want to, it doesn't make a good idea.
Not min/maxing in inferno, at least on the level of not having two monks use the same aura, will be something that gets people kicked.
Classes that have multiplayer skills will have the most annoyances with it.
Either you plan to play a character that doesn't have the option to be more or less supportive for others, or you haven't really thought it through.
Either way, I'm glad Blizzard has said they are putting a restriction in of some form or another.
The fact of the matter is you do not like the new playstyle that blizz is putting into the game.
You are butthurt, and you do not care what other players would enjoy. You only care about yourself, and your vision for the game. It is an extraordinarily greedy and selfish way to think. And your vision for the game alienates countless people, but its obvious you do not care.
If blizz made your vision game just for you and the other 100 elitists who hate skill swapping, no one would ever play it.
Dont get your hopes up, worst case scenario is people have to go to town.
What you want is irrelevant, what is going to happen is obvious.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
One is never hurt by being given additional choices, only by taking them away. A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
How is this even debateable, I didn't realize a bunch of brain dead morons played Diablo games(I was under the impression the majority were pretty smart, guess I was wrong), where having to put even the slightest bit of tactical thought in how people played their char, would be considered a bad thing.
Hell obviously since D3 doesn't use a real skill tree(where you choose what skills you want to learn), there has to be swaping allowed in some way, we're just saying you shouldn't beable to swap skills on the fly. Also if you could, what would then be the point of limiting active skills to only 6.
On top of that, being limited to 6 skills, adds some more customization, like someone mentioned, if skill swapping was abuseable it would be part of the game, people would be forced to abuse it, they couldn't choose not to sigh, so this whole it doesn't hurt you crap, is BS("wizard joins party, barb says wtf is that, switch to X skills or be kicked from party". Sorry I don't see how that leads to fun gameplay).
If you take away the choice to swap skills, you are forcing millions, who want swappable skills, to play the way you want.
citation needed :::cough bs::::
You mean your preference.
And sure, you can drive a car with your feet if you want to, it doesn't make a good idea.
Not min/maxing in inferno, at least on the level of not having two monks use the same aura, will be something that gets people kicked.
Classes that have multiplayer skills will have the most annoyances with it.
Either you plan to play a character that doesn't have the option to be more or less supportive for others, or you haven't really thought it through.
Either way, I'm glad Blizzard has said they are putting a restriction in of some form or another.
Sigh, dude, this isn't an MMO. you are making up problems that don't exist. People won't care. Everyone's a dps. The game is balanced around you having 6 skills at once. It's an non issue and you're fabricating complicated MMO spec issues to try and give credibility to your particular opinion.
Just a quick off-topic (and slightly on-topic): as you can see here, here and here (you don't have to read the whole thing, the titles are enough; these are just the first results in google), having more options isn't necessarily preferable.
So what you are saying is the current unattuned rune system is horrible? I agree.
Good thing they are changing it.
PS: You did not read those articles, did you? lol
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
One is never hurt by being given additional choices, only by taking them away. A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
I like the way it is, it's just a plus unless you're taking it too seriously. It's a game, all this "more penalty, more challenge" comments annoy me. I don't play to get punished. To an extent those are ok, but you shouldn't be so anal about it. It's awesome that you can tailor your skills to the situation.
How can anybody be against not being able to change still sets on the fly, had this been like most games, you would be perm stuck with a skill set(allowing for veriety in builds), so I think you people have some nerve to be complaining about needing to go to town(which will take a total of 15 second to get back to fighting).
I like the idea of locking skills only in certain areas, like boss fights, other group instances/dungeons, arena matches, random events, etc. Another possibility, along with the aforementioned, is to add town-only respects in the later difficulties of the game (inferno for sure, maybe hell also). The way I feel is that by the time we hit 30 and unlock all of our spells, we should be just about on our way through the early stages of nightmare..? Maybe those like me who will scour every last inch of the map will get to 30 before the end of normal mode, but we'll see. With that said, we will have freedom throughout the entire nightmare difficulty to swap skills virtually unhindered and eventually develop a build that suits our individual playing styles. Then, come Hell mode, don't leave town unless you have the particular skills you will need for the ensuing adventure.
All in all, the options should be tested out; this is, in fact, the beta. Also, like Jay Wilson said in Force's interview about the runestones, we should not try to pre-fix problems that are yet to be 'problems'.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Does anybody really know what time it is?
Does anybody really care?
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Who are these people who do not want to think about skill selection? Where is this imaginary straw man located exactly?
Yah, because stats was an awesome system that added variety. Its not like every experienced player just allotted the required stats to wear their gear and then dumped the rest into 1-2 stats. Ohh wait, that is exactly what happened. So that means the VARIETY you are talking about is allowing the new players to totally fk up their toon, while the veteran players get the maximum potential from stat allocation. Skills worked the same way.
That may be what you define variety as, but to me, that is defined as ensuring an unfair advantage to boost your ego.
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
And how does allowing players to change skills, hurt you exactly?
It does not affect you in any way.
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
These words are full of wisdom, heed them well.
To add to that, if noobs don't like screwing up their build, there's a simple solution, do your research(know what each stat actually does, before throwing points into it).
It's not even difficult, It's called common sense for crying out loud.
Yeah, no thanks.
Sorry forgot how lazy new school gamers have become, that taking a measily 3 min to learn how a game works, is a drag(you don't even need to copy build to make viable builds).
Hell in RO I'm a Legend for creating a unique Rogue Build(rogues are squighy, yet mine is a MvP build rogue, which is deemed to be impossible to make). I had no stat resets, and only 1 skill reset which cost 15$(that's r/l money, and you are complaining about a delay, give me a break), and it was my first rogue ever made, yet I did that, the impossible(I beat things with my nontranse rogue, that many people need to be a high lv trans char to handle or be in a huge party).
Being my first Rogue, and making a unique build(which everyone thought was impossible, so I sure didn't get any help), all I had to go on, was basic knowledge of how the game works, which takes literally seconds to grasp.
Diablo sure Isn't much different in that respect(learn how the stats work, and you're good to go, at very least, you wont screw up big enough to make your char unviable).
The same goes for skills, and any other main system that requires thought.
You're another one of those -tough guys- that think everybody has to take it as hard and deep as they do.
So don't come in here trying to lecture me about how lazy my generation, whichever it is, is.
The very fact that you started that post of yours with an attack on people that aren't "you" tells me a lot about you. Heck, you seem to accept having to pay 15$ to fix a screw up when a game should not punish you that heavily for something like that.
I don't care what this immediate debate is about, I'm even happy with how Diablo 2 is now (with respecs), still giving meaning to how you build your characters but giving more freedom, and not punishing people by making them start ALL over cause "you messed up, you deserve it".
Really, its all a question of limits, and you seem to care for none.
You missed the point, I openly admit I made a mistake(minor one, but neverless a mistake), and you call me on pride... Um wouldn't that be swallowing my pride?
Well anyway, the point is, systems shouldn't be removed, and the game shouldn't hold your hand to prevent you from making mistakes, if you make a mistake due to ignorance or make a mistake while purposely trying to do something new, you better be willing to pay the price.
Also incase you missed the moral of the events, I succeeded in making something with very few mistakes(the reason for the skill reset was for a measly 3 points I wasn't happy with, so it was a personal decision, not a must, since having a slightly less then perfect build, bothers me), just because I knew the basics(which is something everyone should know anyway).
Kind've throws your "oh no, I need to do homework" arguement out the window, huh
If you want a game of limits, try chess.
The perfect strategy game.
I still want to know how allowing players to change skills, hurts you or alters your game play?
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
The only one who cares about you being a Legend is you. Again it comes down to you wanting to be THE ONE who discovers THE ULTIMATE BUILD and to do that of couse you need builds, you need the game to make respecs difficult, you need the noobs to come in play the game and leave because it is too hard.
All I and many others want is a fun game we can lose hours into. And if it is a really fun game, obsess us for several months or longer. We don't give a shit who created what build first, or what guild were the first to defeat the uber heroic instance.
So again to answer the original question, Respec solution? I don't see a need for any respec solution with the current system in beta. It looks fun and if some crazy wants and is able to switch skills on the fly in Inferno without getting killed, more power to him. Him killing the boss affects me not a single bit, I've got my own loot drops.
On the topic of skill switching using mod's, I'll let blizzard decide if that's cheating. And I'll accept it if they put in a rule of only allowing respecs in towns. As long as I get the option to change from using Electrocute, to Hydra, to Arcane Orb, to Blizzard and experiment with all the skills or switch things up on occassion, I'm happy.
Of course we can...
You can make up your own limitations and challenge yourself. One of the reasons, I never played Hardcore, is because I like to test the limits of myself and my characters. I will run straight into an enormous group of mobs, just to see if I can pull if off. And if I die, I recalculate my strategy and try again.
You can set your own limitations, exceed them, and become better for it. However, by adding in arbitrary limits, you also lose something in return. That is of course completely unavoidable. For example, I lose the ability to play hardcore mode of D2 & D3.
There is absolutely nothing stopping you from picking 6 skills and keeping them forever. If you need some arbitrary rule to instill your personal set limits, then you are not trying hard enough or do not actually care. And that is not the fault of the other 5 million people who want to play the game another way.
No one is ever hurt by given additional choices, only by taking them away.
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
You can either play with only 6 skills, or you can play with 20.
You have that choice. Blizzard is not forcing you to use other skills, and you can easily beat the game without doing so.
This roles of the forced play style that you talk about are completely reversed.
If you take away the choice to swap skills, you are forcing millions, who want swappable skills, to play the way you want.
No one is ever hurt by given additional choices, only by taking them away.
I think I will make that my signature...its pretty good.
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
The fact of the matter is you do not like the new playstyle that blizz is putting into the game.
You are butthurt, and you do not care what other players would enjoy. You only care about yourself, and your vision for the game. It is an extraordinarily greedy and selfish way to think. And your vision for the game alienates countless people, but its obvious you do not care.
If blizz made your vision game just for you and the other 100 elitists who hate skill swapping, no one would ever play it.
Dont get your hopes up, worst case scenario is people have to go to town.
What you want is irrelevant, what is going to happen is obvious.
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
Hell obviously since D3 doesn't use a real skill tree(where you choose what skills you want to learn), there has to be swaping allowed in some way, we're just saying you shouldn't beable to swap skills on the fly. Also if you could, what would then be the point of limiting active skills to only 6.
On top of that, being limited to 6 skills, adds some more customization, like someone mentioned, if skill swapping was abuseable it would be part of the game, people would be forced to abuse it, they couldn't choose not to sigh, so this whole it doesn't hurt you crap, is BS("wizard joins party, barb says wtf is that, switch to X skills or be kicked from party". Sorry I don't see how that leads to fun gameplay).
Sigh, dude, this isn't an MMO. you are making up problems that don't exist. People won't care. Everyone's a dps. The game is balanced around you having 6 skills at once. It's an non issue and you're fabricating complicated MMO spec issues to try and give credibility to your particular opinion.
So what you are saying is the current unattuned rune system is horrible? I agree.
Good thing they are changing it.
PS: You did not read those articles, did you? lol
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
All in all, the options should be tested out; this is, in fact, the beta. Also, like Jay Wilson said in Force's interview about the runestones, we should not try to pre-fix problems that are yet to be 'problems'.
Does anybody really care?