I joined some time ago but never had a chance to post until now, so I've not had any interest in reading many posts until just now, and I find that the "Tyrael = bad" formula is somewhat frowned upon. Woops. Well, read and see if this is still worth it. :3
Now, I'm not one for prophecies. Downright detest them, honestly. They always spoil the ending -- and the ending here is that Sanctuary dies. There are multiple prophecies recited throughout Diablo II material and various iterations thereof, and the following are the elements I wish to focus on: that, according to Lan Esen by way of Alkor, Sancutary is destined for ruination; the Prime Evil's defeat is "illusory", and they've yet to play the "final gambit"; and that the lore of each character faction (Druids, Barbarians, Amazons, etc.) assert that Sanctuary, by the end of days, shall no longer by at the whim of outside powers. For quick and easy reference, I quote the Prophecies:
Quote from name="Prophecy of Lam Esen (presumably) " »
"And the evil that was once vanquished shall rise anew. Wrapped in the 'guise of man, shall He walk among the innocent and Terror shall consume they that dwell upon the Earth. Behold, the war amongst the Heavens shall not be contained and the sons of man shall be engulfed in the flood of conflict, and all hope shall be lost unto them. And He shall make war upon the Heavens, and the Heavens shall gur themselves as for battle. The righteous shall fall upon the wicked and lay siege to the very gates of Hell. And He shall take peace from mankind and loose great Destruction upon the Earth. The Lord of Hatred shall ascend his throne, and the fires of Hell shall devour all. And He shall meet out his vengeance upon all flesh and the blood of innocence shall run as great torrents. Who then shall be saved?"
Quote from Prophecy of Bul-Kathos »
"And a child will cradle Terror in his breast as the heart of man falls under the shadow.
A Wanderer will pass through the ancient lands trailing chaos in his wake.
The Three Brothers will be reunited as the mortal world trembles before their might.
And so it was foretold that the Three, once reunited, would be shattered again—
Their defeat would be illusory—that the final gambit had yet to be played..."
"And now at last the storm surges forth from the southlands, and the hand of Destruction
Reaches out to undo the workings of the Ancients. The tides of Hell surge—ready to smash
Down upon the shores of the mortal world — to drown the guilty and the innocent alike."
Quote from name="Athulua (Amozonia) »
"[The Amazon's'] oracles long ago predicted the Dark Exile, and they have been preparing to combat it ever since. Amazons regard the destruction of the Three Prime Evils as their destiny, ushering in a new era when mortal men and women can at long last take their rightful place in the universe, no longer merely playthings for the beings of the Outer Realms."
Assuming all of these prophecies are accurate -- and many HAVE been fulfilled thus far by that Band of Adventurers -- then there is obviously some contradictions, making them mutually exclusive. Right? Not necessarily. This is where I, one who specializes in speculation and ramblings, do what I do best. The following is just a possiblity of what may be to come.
A major problem facing a continuation of the Diablo franchise centers on the fact that two of the Souls Stones have been destroyed, supposedly casting Diablo and Mephisto to the furthest most reaches of the Abyss. (Digression: I, for one, consider the scenario where Lillith reincarnates the Three as apocryphal.) However, in Mephisto's case I see an easy solution: it is known that he corrupted the High Council of Zakarum with shards of his Soul Stone, the largest of which was implanted in the hand of the Que-Hagan of that Order. What of the other shards? Certainly the Council Members were killed, but their shards were left unacconted for. Might it be possible that a risiduum of Mephisto's essence remains? Obviously. Moreover, were the shards re-united, he may manifest in an even greater, more powerful form, given that their collective mass/energy would probably surpass that of the Stone held by the Que-Hagan. This would then validate the Prophecy wherein it is stated that "The Lord of Hatred ascends his Throne". Mephisto has thrown the Zakarum into chaos and left them decimated. Too, the Eastern Jungles are a loci of great power, so it's reasonable that many of the local mage clans have also suffered heavily. Lastly, Mephisto hasn't received his due, in my opinion, though his influence is arguably the most far reaching in Sanctuary: he bent the Zakarum to his will, clamped down on the East, and sent forth lieutenants to Tristram resulting in Diablo's release.
Now, what of Diablo? After rallying the legions of hell, his Stone was shattered at the Hell Forge, casting him into the Abyss. (Note a curiosity here: a band of mortals succede at punching through the Hellish legions and ripping out its black heart, where demigods strove to do just this for aeons but failed...) For his return I see little alternative than to again pull upon Mephisto, who may have provided his brother a shard as a backup to take to Hell. It is my belief that Diablo rallied those demonic legions that once helped overthrow he and his brothers, leaving the greater bulk of the loyalists relatively unscathed. Why? Loyalty is a fickle thing, and The Three simply used the lesser evils -- Andariel, Duriel -- and their adherents. As I'll explain later, the Three may have smelled trouble brewing in Hell, and modified their plans accordingly...
Finally, Baal. We know little of his fate, other than that he succeded in corrupting the World Stone, the bridge between the realms. Before its destruction at the hands of Tyrael, Baal's spiritual essence fled into the Stone. Where to from there? According to my hypothesis -- HEAVEN!
See where this might be going? Mephisto remains at large in Sanctuary; Diablo lingers on in Hell; and Baal, by the power of the World Stone (which, as I've read, was created by the Angels, particularly Inarius) awaits in Heaven. Each of them is positioned in each of the dominant Realms. I'll leave this you with this ominous message as I jump to another strand of my web of intrigue.
Enter Tyrael. Rebel, forger of Orders, curiously neglectful, and refuses to adhere to the dictates of Heavenly isolationism. Repeatedly he intervenes on the part of Mankind, to the chagrine of his colleagues. My hypothesis?
Tyrael is dead.
The entity leading the Heroes is an imposter; none other than Belial, Lord of Lies. Having witnessed that the Prime Evils' efforts in the mortal plane, Belial slays Tyrael and takes his place (or, perhaps, "Tyrael" was created by Belial to begin with) and attempts to stop the Brothers in Sanctuary. This would explain Belial's absence. In the end, pulling upon the powers granted him by both Heaven and Hell, "Tyrael" destroys the World Stone and severs all three realms. But to what end? To fulfill the prophecies, of course -- to ensure that SANCTUARY comes to dominance. With the World Stone destroyed, the remainder of the demonic legions on earth are left stranded, as are those Angels who followed "Tyrael". And as we know, Outer Beings are left weak without a connection to their home realms, and can maintain their existence only through using humans and their souls. Maybe it is Tyrael's/Belial's plan to wait out the aeons, rally those Outer Being survivors and lead them in this new world, where they shall corrupt and possess all of mankind, the most plentiful source of energy through out the realms. Years into the future, when the link between the three realms is re-established, Belial will have succeded where Diablo, Mephisto and Baal "failed" -- procuring an endless source of spiritual, HUMAN energy, and directing it via an Angelic and Demonic alliance against both Heaven and Hell. In this way, Sanctuary is no longer at the whim of outside forces.
It is at this time that The Three, strategically located in Heaven, Earth and Hell, pull their final gambit, using an unwitting Belial as he used them, and strike out with a ferocity this world -- no world -- has ever witnessed.
All will quake with Fear.
In the absence of any sovereign power, the dissidents of the Burning Hells are polarized by Fear.
Hatred leads to suffering.
Mankind, resenting being the playthings of others, gurs itself for battle to prove itself superior against the Hated outer realms.
And the suffering begets the final Destruction.
The righteous fury of the Heavens, ill-content with the sins of Man, prepare to fulfill the original plans of the Anguinis Council to Destroy Sanctuary.
Who, then, shall be saved?
Afterword
One strand to tie up: Asmodan. What has the lord of Sin been up to? I've no clue, honestly, but I think he had something to do with the onset of the SIN Wars. Perhaps it was he who secretly suggested to the Three totake Sanctuary as their own, and used this as an excuse to unite the other Evils together in an attempt to overthrow them. Of course, he vainly believed Heaven would abandon its own defense to aid Mankind against the banished Three; actually, they would up doing the exact opposite, fortifying their realm even further. But again, where does he FIT? Sins lead to Terror, Hatred, Destruction, Lies, Pain and Anguish....
Another prominant character whose fate is unknown is Horazon the Summoner. He vanished, leaving some depraved Vizjerei contemporary of Drognan to take up his mantle. Might he prove pivitol in empowering the Three, or re-establishing a balance between all Realms? Will he at some point embody one of the Evils? I see no reason that Horazon, possessed by the essence of Mephisto, could not take advantage of the blurring of the lines between the Realms and pull Diablo's essence from the Abyss before it is fully diluted. The ensuing chaos and a quick marshalling of demonic forces could liberate Baal's Soul Stone from Tyrael's clutches, allowing for his own reincarnation as well. Who knows.
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Be it through hallowed grounds or lands of sorrow
All in the Forger's wake is left bereft and fallow
Is the residuum worth the cost of destruction and maiming;
Or is the shaping a culling and exercise in taming?
The road's goal is the dark Origin of Being
But be wary through what thickets it winds.
-Excerpt from the Litany of Residuum;
As Translated by He Who Brings Order
It goes to show that there as so many possibilities in the Diablo storyline yet. To everyone who thinks the Diablo storyline has reached a final conclusion I say - Fuck off
The Baal in Heaven thing is a bit odd though, how would he sneak around there without being seen?
(Digression: I, for one, consider the scenario where Lillith reincarnates the Three as apocryphal.) However, in Mephisto's case I see an easy solution: it is known that he corrupted the High Council of Zakarum with shards of his Soul Stone, the largest of which was implanted in the hand of the Que-Hagan of that Order. What of the other shards? Certainly the Council Members were killed, but their shards were left unacconted for. Might it be possible that a risiduum of Mephisto's essence remains? Obviously. Moreover, were the shards re-united, he may manifest in an even greater, more powerful form, given that their collective mass/energy would probably surpass that of the Stone held by the Que-Hagan. This would then validate the Prophecy wherein it is stated that "The Lord of Hatred ascends his Throne". Mephisto has thrown the Zakarum into chaos and left them decimated. Too, the Eastern Jungles are a loci of great power, so it's reasonable that many of the local mage clans have also suffered heavily. Lastly, Mephisto hasn't received his due, in my opinion, though his influence is arguably the most far reaching in Sanctuary: he bent the Zakarum to his will, clamped down on the East, and sent forth lieutenants to Tristram resulting in Diablo's release.
Good point. We still don't know exacly how the Soulstones work however, and I suspect Blizzard doesn't either. Splitting the soulstone may work like that, but Mephisto himself still remained in one piece of it so to speak.
Quote from "Jinshin" »
(Note a curiosity here: a band of mortals succede at punching through the Hellish legions and ripping out its black heart, where demigods strove to do just this for aeons but failed...)
No kidding, though obviously it is a gameplay element. It might also be explained by the fact that humans possess quite great potential, the hero might be some form of amazing new nephalem in action or something like that.
Quote from "Jinshin" »
For his return I see little alternative than to again pull upon Mephisto, who may have provided his brother a shard as a backup to take to Hell.
The soustlones aren't necessary for existing though, and as far as we know have no use when calling someone or something from the Abyss.
Quote from "Jinshin" »
Finally, Baal. We know little of his fate, other than that he succeded in corrupting the World Stone, the bridge between the realms. Before its destruction at the hands of Tyrael, Baal's spiritual essence fled into the Stone. Where to from there? According to my hypothesis -- HEAVEN!
Interesting and original idea I must say.
Quote from "Jinshin" »
Tyrael is dead.
The entity leading the Heroes is an imposter; none other than Belial, Lord of Lies. Having witnessed that the Prime Evils' efforts in the mortal plane, Belial slays Tyrael and takes his place (or, perhaps, "Tyrael" was created by Belial to begin with) and attempts to stop the Brothers in Sanctuary. This would explain Belial's absence. In the end, pulling upon the powers granted him by both Heaven and Hell, "Tyrael" destroys the World Stone and severs all three realms.
Whoah, whoah, slow down. This I have a hard time grasping. First of all, I cannot see how Tyral could reasonably have been created from Belial. He is, from what I deduct, as old as the Three himself, one of the five highest powers in Heaven according to the Sin War trilogy. As such, he cannot be a creation of the Three.
Second, he displays some of the same rogue-like characteristics we know him for during earlier parts of the Sin War, so it isn't necessarily a trait craeted by Belial.
Third, I cannot see how Tyrael could be immitated without noticing. That's like someone pretending to be Baal and hope to fool Mephisto and Diablo with that charade. It just doesn't work. Of course lesser minions would be fooled, but not the high-ups.
But to what end? To fulfill the prophecies, of course -- to ensure that SANCTUARY comes to dominance. With the World Stone destroyed, the remainder of the demonic legions on earth are left stranded, as are those Angels who followed "Tyrael". And as we know, Outer Beings are left weak without a connection to their home realms, and can maintain their existence only through using humans and their souls. Maybe it is Tyrael's/Belial's plan to wait out the aeons, rally those Outer Being survivors and lead them in this new world, where they shall corrupt and possess all of mankind, the most plentiful source of energy through out the realms. Years into the future, when the link between the three realms is re-established, Belial will have succeded where Diablo, Mephisto and Baal "failed" -- procuring an endless source of spiritual, HUMAN energy, and directing it via an Angelic and Demonic alliance against both Heaven and Hell. In this way, Sanctuary is no longer at the whim of outside forces.
Our guess is though at this time that destroying the Worldstone connected the realms. Though of course that comes from Tyrael, so if you're correct, he would obviously have been lying.
Still, an interesting plot and a good read :thumbsup:
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First of all, I cannot see how Tyral could reasonably have been created from Belial.
Sorry, I meant the persona of Tyrael was created by Belial, an alias. They're not distinct entities. Who you think is an angel is and has always been Belial. From the manual, it seems Asmodan is much more pre-occupied with reigning in Hell than anything else. Of course, though Belial is Lord of Lies, it WOULD be difficult for him to pull off something as hard as fooling the entire angelic order.
When the Worldstone was destroyed, wasn't the barrier between the worlds shattered, not established?
I feel a little silly saying this -- 'cause I'm sure someone here must know -- but I don't really have ANY idea what the World Stone's true purpose or nature is. All I know is that the Soul Stones were carved from it, and they act as spiritual black holes, sucking in spirits when prompted, storing them and their energy. Thinking of it this way, perhaps it IS better to say that the boundaries between the Realms will collapse; perhaps the World Stone embodies the very essence -- the "spirit" and identity -- of Sanctuary, keeping it separate from the others. For Baal to change the World Stone would mean he would change the nature of Sanctuary from one of neutrality to one of Hadean quality. With it destroyed, Sanctuary will no longer be able to distinguish itself from the other Realms, and its spiritual forces may flood all of Sanctuary, as they once did in the day prior to the Sin Wars.
However, at one point I had thought that the World Stone acted as a sort of three-way bridge between the Realms' islands. Each island was kept stationary and connected, but when that basis is gone they'll float apart. The respective energies -- or perhaps a tide in the Void -- would eventually push all three back together.
Yet another interpretation is that the Soul Stones could act as bridges of energy to one of the magical Realms, allowing the Three to pull upon the ambient energies of Hell and concentrate them into themselves. Perhaps the World Stone does this at an even greater level, allowing Sanctuary to feed off Heaven and Hell and empower mortal life. When that mortal dies, it goes back to Heaven or Hell to re-energize them to repeat the process. (Huh, beginning to think of the carbon cycle...)
At any rate, I still think my hypothesis for Baal may be valid. He'd be an incorporeal entity floating about, slowly corrupting the Angelic Host. (And remember the Angels are said to be as capable of great wrath as any demon, so all it might take is just a push or two to go from righteous fury to zealous rage. Just look at the Zakarum.) Perhaps some properties stolen from the World Stone could help him mask his presence?
The soustlones aren't necessary for existing though, and as far as we know have no use when calling someone or something from the Abyss.
Yeah, I thought of that. The only thing I could think of is to compare them to that story of the boat rower who is forever destines to row the boat unless someone else can take his place, whether they agree to it or are tricked into it. The Soul Stones, being spiritual vacuums, must always be filled. Of course, I'm sure the Three have also recognized the liability this poses, so they must have figured out a way around it.
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Be it through hallowed grounds or lands of sorrow
All in the Forger's wake is left bereft and fallow
Is the residuum worth the cost of destruction and maiming;
Or is the shaping a culling and exercise in taming?
The road's goal is the dark Origin of Being
But be wary through what thickets it winds.
-Excerpt from the Litany of Residuum;
As Translated by He Who Brings Order
Okay, I've got a quote from the speech the Ancients give after their defeat:
"You are a worthy hero! We augment your skill and grant you entry to the interior of Mount Arreat, wherein lies the Worldstone. Beware. You will not be alone. Baal, the Lord of Destruction, is already inside. The Archangel Tyrael has always been our benefactor, but even he cannot help us now. For Baal blocks Tyrael's spiritual presence from entering the chamber of the Worldstone. Only you, mortal, have the power to defeat Baal now. Baal threatens the Worldstone-and through it, the mortal realm, itself. You must stop him before he gains full control of the sacred stone. With it under his control, Baal could shatter the boundaries between this world and the Burning Hells, thus allowing the hordes of the Prime Evils to pour forth into the mortal realm like an unstoppable tide! If you are weak, the world as you know it could be lost forever. You must NOT fail!"
It seems you have not read The Sin War, they expand and explain a lot of how Sanctuary works and how it came to be.
In a way I can agree with Equinox, it does suck to have to read books in order to stay up to date with a game. But on the other hand I think it's great to get all of this extra material.
I can't really respond to your arguments without spoiling the plot for you, so if you want to read them, I'll just shut up
Quote from "Jinshin" »
Yeah, I thought of that. The only thing I could think of is to compare them to that story of the boat rower who is forever destines to row the boat unless someone else can take his place, whether they agree to it or are tricked into it. The Soul Stones, being spiritual vacuums, must always be filled. Of course, I'm sure the Three have also recognized the liability this poses, so they must have figured out a way around it.
I don't see what pivotal role the Soulstones fill. This is how I see it.
The Three sit in Hell and want to invade Sanctuary.
The Three realise this will be hard.
The Three fool everyone with the Soulstones, making everyone think they're these awesome prisons, when in fact they're not.
The Three each break free of their Soulstones to some degree.
Both Mephisto and Diablo have their stones shattered, sending them to the Abyss. Baal's fate uncertain I guess.
Diablo is at least surely freed of his stone by now, there's no need for him to have anything to do with any soulstones anymore. They were a ploy played by the Three to fool heaven, but now that the secret is no longer secret, Diablo no longer has any use for a stone. It's obvious it isn't needed in order to exist within Sanctuary, since the Three have already done that without any aid from a Soulstone.
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I see what you're saying. Regardless, Tyrael was convinced the Three were still intimately bound to the Soul Stones, believing their destruction also meant that of Diablo, Baal and Mephisto. He should also know everything that Inarius told the Brothers; if Inarius revealed a way to break free of the Stones, Tyrael would know that they knew... Hrm. =\
Baal could shatter the boundaries between this world and the Burning Hells,
Thanks. Of course, we could scrap this whole thing and say the Abyss will have as great a presence as the other Realms, easily allowing Diablo and co. to break the boundaries... but that's too easy and lame! I still like the idea of the World Stone embodying the identity of Sanctuary, and warping that image subsequently manipulates the World itself... but that's just me. :3
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Be it through hallowed grounds or lands of sorrow
All in the Forger's wake is left bereft and fallow
Is the residuum worth the cost of destruction and maiming;
Or is the shaping a culling and exercise in taming?
The road's goal is the dark Origin of Being
But be wary through what thickets it winds.
-Excerpt from the Litany of Residuum;
As Translated by He Who Brings Order
Apparently so, there was never an extended explanation on the specifics of each, but they are different realms. According to the lore, the Abyss would be the place where all demons come from (I agree its strange not being the BH), the Void would be a forsaken place which is forsaken both by angels and demons (although it seemed Inarius could willingly and easily visit the Void and get back to the Sanctuary). There was never a full explanation, but the Burning Hells would be the realm of all demons... I'd suggest you to ask this again on this topic: http://www.diablofans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8224
Ok, I have a little idea of my own for this shindig…
Ok, what do we know about the soul stones and their functions?
They were given to the Horadrim by Tyrael in order to trap the three which were, as far as we know, were banished from hell by the other two.
Ok, from this I have derived that the soul stones were just a method of capturing the three, and nothing more special then that. When they are jabbed into someone’s forehead, they are able to manifest themselves in that person or thing. (Remember in D1, after you killed Diablo, he returned to Prince Albrecht).
Diablo’s essence returned into the soul stone with the first game, so why wouldn’t it have in D2? Did being in hell have a different effect on him? I personally don’t see it giving him any sort of independence from the soul stone, otherwise why would it have still been lodged into his head?
Now, Inarus was the one who gave the three the information on how to corrupt the soul stones, but who says he told them the truth?
Here’s where my hypothesis falls into play. Let’s say that Azmodian or Belial made a deal with Inarus, who knows what, in order to screw over the three and feed them some half-truths about the soul stones. The three are immortal, but they could be hampered or restrained for a long enough time for either Belial or Azmodian to gain complete control of hell.
I think all three were cast into the abyss, but they are each one of the most powerful entities in existence, so they have the potential to return to hell in time.
From “Legacy of Blood,” we know that Azmodian had the upper hand at the time of Diablo’s little track across the desert, and Belial is searching for support from anywhere in order to keep his ass from getting whooped.
Now we are set up for Diablo 3.
The setup is Azmodian has finally gained control over hell after Diablo was defeated, Belial has escaped into the mortal realm, and now there is a very noticeable barrier between Heaven, Sanctuary, and Hell (The pandemonium fortress was a direct link between heaven and hell, so I’m imagining some blending like that)
Azmodian is poised to destroy the mortal realm and then move on to heaven, while Belial has made the mortals aware of this, and being the lord of lies, attempts to lead some of the earthly forces against Azmodian.
As a hero, you help defeat Azmodian, giving Belial total control and the army he needs to take over heaven.
(Another fight with Inarus would be an awesome fight during this too).
Now the balance is no longer maintained, and perhaps trang’ oul gets involved at this point. Somehow, he gets the three back from the abyss in order to get after Belial. OH SNAP!!!
The three would be against Belial, trying to regian control of their forces.
At the same time as belial was converting people, however, heaven was setting up its own scheme and getting some to there side (Paladins and other Zealot types). So they were taking the rope a dope approach, but with the return of the three, that was messed up as well. Tyrael gets a hold of you, the hero, and devises some sort of plan with you in order to push the forces of hell back.
Belial is already assaulting heaven as the three return, so now you have to get to heaven and start whooping some serious butt to knock out Belial. You finally smoke him, but to your surprise, here come the three from behind converting back their forces and ready to make their own assault upon the world.
This would probably require some sort of expansion, but it would be the final assault between heaven and hell.
I’m not sure how all of this is going to set up. Any Ideas?
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I saw a Werewolf drinking a Pina' Collada at Trader Vick's....
Are the Void, the Abyss, and the Burning Hells all different?
I think the void actually refers to the domain of Trag'Oul whereas the Abyss probably refers to a particular region in the deepest reaches of Hell.
Quote from name="BEAR TRAP" »
Now, Inarus was the one who gave the three the information on how to corrupt the soul stones, but who says he told them the truth?
Dude, it wasn't Inarius, it was Izual.
Warning, the rest of this post contains spoilers from the Sin War Trilogy, you've been warned
There's an important point that all you guys seem to have forgotten. The Worldstone was used by Inarius to neutralized the powers of the Nephalem, and with its destruction the Nephalem will inevitably return. If Tyrael is indeed dead or corrupted, it is very likely that with the influence of the rest of the Angiris Council that Heaven will turn against humanity. It won't be Sanctuary + Heaven Vs Hell anymore, it will become a three sided war with Sanctuary at the middle.
Also I think that it's possible that the destruction of the Worldstone was planned by the Three from the beginning. Notice how much Fara or Cain put the emphasis on how much Tal Rasha's powers are making Baal stronger. Now imagine just how powerful a Demon like Diablo would be if he possessed a Nephalem like Uldyssian. He would literally become an invicible God of Terror and crush both Sanctuary and Heaven with a sneeze.
That's what I think the Three were after for all this time, and the question now is how are they going to do it?
What ever became of the Nephalem, anyway? And why has the power of humanity diluted with each passing generation? Or is this the effect of the World Stone's neutralizing powers?
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Be it through hallowed grounds or lands of sorrow
All in the Forger's wake is left bereft and fallow
Is the residuum worth the cost of destruction and maiming;
Or is the shaping a culling and exercise in taming?
The road's goal is the dark Origin of Being
But be wary through what thickets it winds.
-Excerpt from the Litany of Residuum;
As Translated by He Who Brings Order
Well, no one really knows but considering that they can live for a very long time, it is very likely that some of them are still alive in a way or another like the Guardians of the Arreat Summit.
Quote from "Jinshin" »
And why has the power of humanity diluted with each passing generation? Or is this the effect of the World Stone's neutralizing powers?
Well if you really want to know, Inarius hated the Nephalem because he thought they were to powerful and hazardous, so he used the Worldstone to turn there offsprings into powerless little mortals. The Worldstone doesn't necessarily have neutralizing powers, in fact Uldyssian used it to reverse Inarius spell which in turn most likely created the heroes we know nowadays.
From what NPC's say in Diablo 1, Adria the Witch appeared, set up a shack very quickly the day before all the bad stuff happened, and it appears she left when Diablo was defeated or around that time.. and she is no where to be found in Diablo II.
I hear there was suppose to be a Diablo II patch players called the Adria patch.. but that must have been a no go..
Are the Void, the Abyss, and the Burning Hells all different?
The Void is most certainly different, most likely some kind of empty realms in between other worlds. The Abyss might be, as said, just a very "deep" place in Hell.
Quote from "Jinshin" »
What ever became of the Nephalem, anyway? And why has the power of humanity diluted with each passing generation? Or is this the effect of the World Stone's neutralizing powers?
Well most of the Nephalem became regular humans because of how the Worldstone affected them.
As for after the Sin War trilogy, we can only assume that something started happening to people all over the world after the death of Uldyssian.
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As for after the Sin War trilogy, we can only assume that something started happening to people all over the world after the death of Uldyssian.
There's no official information about it, but I have a feeling that the Horadrim might be some sort of third generation of Nephalem, notice how close it sounds to Edyrem.
If only lessening the power of the Worldstone over humanity created a godlike mageclan we can only imagine what its destruction will do over time.
I just had a crazy idea. Following to Uldyssian the Worldstone is "in truth everywhere" (book 3 p.305). By spreading their essence into the Soulstones the Three did not only became able to manifest themselves into the world, but they actually spread their essence everywhere in Sanctuary. Thus even if the Soulstones and the Worldstone were destroyed it may indeed be still possible for the Prime Evils to come back to the mortal world.
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Now, I'm not one for prophecies. Downright detest them, honestly. They always spoil the ending -- and the ending here is that Sanctuary dies. There are multiple prophecies recited throughout Diablo II material and various iterations thereof, and the following are the elements I wish to focus on: that, according to Lan Esen by way of Alkor, Sancutary is destined for ruination; the Prime Evil's defeat is "illusory", and they've yet to play the "final gambit"; and that the lore of each character faction (Druids, Barbarians, Amazons, etc.) assert that Sanctuary, by the end of days, shall no longer by at the whim of outside powers. For quick and easy reference, I quote the Prophecies:
Assuming all of these prophecies are accurate -- and many HAVE been fulfilled thus far by that Band of Adventurers -- then there is obviously some contradictions, making them mutually exclusive. Right? Not necessarily. This is where I, one who specializes in speculation and ramblings, do what I do best. The following is just a possiblity of what may be to come.
A major problem facing a continuation of the Diablo franchise centers on the fact that two of the Souls Stones have been destroyed, supposedly casting Diablo and Mephisto to the furthest most reaches of the Abyss. (Digression: I, for one, consider the scenario where Lillith reincarnates the Three as apocryphal.) However, in Mephisto's case I see an easy solution: it is known that he corrupted the High Council of Zakarum with shards of his Soul Stone, the largest of which was implanted in the hand of the Que-Hagan of that Order. What of the other shards? Certainly the Council Members were killed, but their shards were left unacconted for. Might it be possible that a risiduum of Mephisto's essence remains? Obviously. Moreover, were the shards re-united, he may manifest in an even greater, more powerful form, given that their collective mass/energy would probably surpass that of the Stone held by the Que-Hagan. This would then validate the Prophecy wherein it is stated that "The Lord of Hatred ascends his Throne". Mephisto has thrown the Zakarum into chaos and left them decimated. Too, the Eastern Jungles are a loci of great power, so it's reasonable that many of the local mage clans have also suffered heavily. Lastly, Mephisto hasn't received his due, in my opinion, though his influence is arguably the most far reaching in Sanctuary: he bent the Zakarum to his will, clamped down on the East, and sent forth lieutenants to Tristram resulting in Diablo's release.
Now, what of Diablo? After rallying the legions of hell, his Stone was shattered at the Hell Forge, casting him into the Abyss. (Note a curiosity here: a band of mortals succede at punching through the Hellish legions and ripping out its black heart, where demigods strove to do just this for aeons but failed...) For his return I see little alternative than to again pull upon Mephisto, who may have provided his brother a shard as a backup to take to Hell. It is my belief that Diablo rallied those demonic legions that once helped overthrow he and his brothers, leaving the greater bulk of the loyalists relatively unscathed. Why? Loyalty is a fickle thing, and The Three simply used the lesser evils -- Andariel, Duriel -- and their adherents. As I'll explain later, the Three may have smelled trouble brewing in Hell, and modified their plans accordingly...
Finally, Baal. We know little of his fate, other than that he succeded in corrupting the World Stone, the bridge between the realms. Before its destruction at the hands of Tyrael, Baal's spiritual essence fled into the Stone. Where to from there? According to my hypothesis -- HEAVEN!
See where this might be going? Mephisto remains at large in Sanctuary; Diablo lingers on in Hell; and Baal, by the power of the World Stone (which, as I've read, was created by the Angels, particularly Inarius) awaits in Heaven. Each of them is positioned in each of the dominant Realms. I'll leave this you with this ominous message as I jump to another strand of my web of intrigue.
Enter Tyrael. Rebel, forger of Orders, curiously neglectful, and refuses to adhere to the dictates of Heavenly isolationism. Repeatedly he intervenes on the part of Mankind, to the chagrine of his colleagues. My hypothesis?
Tyrael is dead.
The entity leading the Heroes is an imposter; none other than Belial, Lord of Lies. Having witnessed that the Prime Evils' efforts in the mortal plane, Belial slays Tyrael and takes his place (or, perhaps, "Tyrael" was created by Belial to begin with) and attempts to stop the Brothers in Sanctuary. This would explain Belial's absence. In the end, pulling upon the powers granted him by both Heaven and Hell, "Tyrael" destroys the World Stone and severs all three realms. But to what end? To fulfill the prophecies, of course -- to ensure that SANCTUARY comes to dominance. With the World Stone destroyed, the remainder of the demonic legions on earth are left stranded, as are those Angels who followed "Tyrael". And as we know, Outer Beings are left weak without a connection to their home realms, and can maintain their existence only through using humans and their souls. Maybe it is Tyrael's/Belial's plan to wait out the aeons, rally those Outer Being survivors and lead them in this new world, where they shall corrupt and possess all of mankind, the most plentiful source of energy through out the realms. Years into the future, when the link between the three realms is re-established, Belial will have succeded where Diablo, Mephisto and Baal "failed" -- procuring an endless source of spiritual, HUMAN energy, and directing it via an Angelic and Demonic alliance against both Heaven and Hell. In this way, Sanctuary is no longer at the whim of outside forces.
It is at this time that The Three, strategically located in Heaven, Earth and Hell, pull their final gambit, using an unwitting Belial as he used them, and strike out with a ferocity this world -- no world -- has ever witnessed.
All will quake with Fear.
Hatred leads to suffering.
And the suffering begets the final Destruction.
Afterword
One strand to tie up: Asmodan. What has the lord of Sin been up to? I've no clue, honestly, but I think he had something to do with the onset of the SIN Wars. Perhaps it was he who secretly suggested to the Three totake Sanctuary as their own, and used this as an excuse to unite the other Evils together in an attempt to overthrow them. Of course, he vainly believed Heaven would abandon its own defense to aid Mankind against the banished Three; actually, they would up doing the exact opposite, fortifying their realm even further. But again, where does he FIT? Sins lead to Terror, Hatred, Destruction, Lies, Pain and Anguish....
Another prominant character whose fate is unknown is Horazon the Summoner. He vanished, leaving some depraved Vizjerei contemporary of Drognan to take up his mantle. Might he prove pivitol in empowering the Three, or re-establishing a balance between all Realms? Will he at some point embody one of the Evils? I see no reason that Horazon, possessed by the essence of Mephisto, could not take advantage of the blurring of the lines between the Realms and pull Diablo's essence from the Abyss before it is fully diluted. The ensuing chaos and a quick marshalling of demonic forces could liberate Baal's Soul Stone from Tyrael's clutches, allowing for his own reincarnation as well. Who knows.
All in the Forger's wake is left bereft and fallow-Excerpt from the Litany of Residuum;
As Translated by He Who Brings Order
It goes to show that there as so many possibilities in the Diablo storyline yet. To everyone who thinks the Diablo storyline has reached a final conclusion I say - Fuck off
The Baal in Heaven thing is a bit odd though, how would he sneak around there without being seen?
Other than that, that's very in depth and was a very good reading.
No kidding, though obviously it is a gameplay element. It might also be explained by the fact that humans possess quite great potential, the hero might be some form of amazing new nephalem in action or something like that.
The soustlones aren't necessary for existing though, and as far as we know have no use when calling someone or something from the Abyss.
Interesting and original idea I must say.
Whoah, whoah, slow down. This I have a hard time grasping. First of all, I cannot see how Tyral could reasonably have been created from Belial. He is, from what I deduct, as old as the Three himself, one of the five highest powers in Heaven according to the Sin War trilogy. As such, he cannot be a creation of the Three.
Second, he displays some of the same rogue-like characteristics we know him for during earlier parts of the Sin War, so it isn't necessarily a trait craeted by Belial.
Third, I cannot see how Tyrael could be immitated without noticing. That's like someone pretending to be Baal and hope to fool Mephisto and Diablo with that charade. It just doesn't work. Of course lesser minions would be fooled, but not the high-ups.
Our guess is though at this time that destroying the Worldstone connected the realms. Though of course that comes from Tyrael, so if you're correct, he would obviously have been lying.
Still, an interesting plot and a good read :thumbsup:
Sorry, I meant the persona of Tyrael was created by Belial, an alias. They're not distinct entities. Who you think is an angel is and has always been Belial. From the manual, it seems Asmodan is much more pre-occupied with reigning in Hell than anything else. Of course, though Belial is Lord of Lies, it WOULD be difficult for him to pull off something as hard as fooling the entire angelic order.
I feel a little silly saying this -- 'cause I'm sure someone here must know -- but I don't really have ANY idea what the World Stone's true purpose or nature is. All I know is that the Soul Stones were carved from it, and they act as spiritual black holes, sucking in spirits when prompted, storing them and their energy. Thinking of it this way, perhaps it IS better to say that the boundaries between the Realms will collapse; perhaps the World Stone embodies the very essence -- the "spirit" and identity -- of Sanctuary, keeping it separate from the others. For Baal to change the World Stone would mean he would change the nature of Sanctuary from one of neutrality to one of Hadean quality. With it destroyed, Sanctuary will no longer be able to distinguish itself from the other Realms, and its spiritual forces may flood all of Sanctuary, as they once did in the day prior to the Sin Wars.
However, at one point I had thought that the World Stone acted as a sort of three-way bridge between the Realms' islands. Each island was kept stationary and connected, but when that basis is gone they'll float apart. The respective energies -- or perhaps a tide in the Void -- would eventually push all three back together.
Yet another interpretation is that the Soul Stones could act as bridges of energy to one of the magical Realms, allowing the Three to pull upon the ambient energies of Hell and concentrate them into themselves. Perhaps the World Stone does this at an even greater level, allowing Sanctuary to feed off Heaven and Hell and empower mortal life. When that mortal dies, it goes back to Heaven or Hell to re-energize them to repeat the process. (Huh, beginning to think of the carbon cycle...)
At any rate, I still think my hypothesis for Baal may be valid. He'd be an incorporeal entity floating about, slowly corrupting the Angelic Host. (And remember the Angels are said to be as capable of great wrath as any demon, so all it might take is just a push or two to go from righteous fury to zealous rage. Just look at the Zakarum.) Perhaps some properties stolen from the World Stone could help him mask his presence?
Yeah, I thought of that. The only thing I could think of is to compare them to that story of the boat rower who is forever destines to row the boat unless someone else can take his place, whether they agree to it or are tricked into it. The Soul Stones, being spiritual vacuums, must always be filled. Of course, I'm sure the Three have also recognized the liability this poses, so they must have figured out a way around it.
All in the Forger's wake is left bereft and fallow-Excerpt from the Litany of Residuum;
As Translated by He Who Brings Order
In a way I can agree with Equinox, it does suck to have to read books in order to stay up to date with a game. But on the other hand I think it's great to get all of this extra material.
I can't really respond to your arguments without spoiling the plot for you, so if you want to read them, I'll just shut up
I don't see what pivotal role the Soulstones fill. This is how I see it.
The Three sit in Hell and want to invade Sanctuary.
The Three realise this will be hard.
The Three fool everyone with the Soulstones, making everyone think they're these awesome prisons, when in fact they're not.
The Three each break free of their Soulstones to some degree.
Both Mephisto and Diablo have their stones shattered, sending them to the Abyss. Baal's fate uncertain I guess.
Diablo is at least surely freed of his stone by now, there's no need for him to have anything to do with any soulstones anymore. They were a ploy played by the Three to fool heaven, but now that the secret is no longer secret, Diablo no longer has any use for a stone. It's obvious it isn't needed in order to exist within Sanctuary, since the Three have already done that without any aid from a Soulstone.
I see what you're saying. Regardless, Tyrael was convinced the Three were still intimately bound to the Soul Stones, believing their destruction also meant that of Diablo, Baal and Mephisto. He should also know everything that Inarius told the Brothers; if Inarius revealed a way to break free of the Stones, Tyrael would know that they knew... Hrm. =\
Thanks. Of course, we could scrap this whole thing and say the Abyss will have as great a presence as the other Realms, easily allowing Diablo and co. to break the boundaries... but that's too easy and lame! I still like the idea of the World Stone embodying the identity of Sanctuary, and warping that image subsequently manipulates the World itself... but that's just me. :3
All in the Forger's wake is left bereft and fallow-Excerpt from the Litany of Residuum;
As Translated by He Who Brings Order
Ok, what do we know about the soul stones and their functions?
They were given to the Horadrim by Tyrael in order to trap the three which were, as far as we know, were banished from hell by the other two.
Ok, from this I have derived that the soul stones were just a method of capturing the three, and nothing more special then that. When they are jabbed into someone’s forehead, they are able to manifest themselves in that person or thing. (Remember in D1, after you killed Diablo, he returned to Prince Albrecht).
Diablo’s essence returned into the soul stone with the first game, so why wouldn’t it have in D2? Did being in hell have a different effect on him? I personally don’t see it giving him any sort of independence from the soul stone, otherwise why would it have still been lodged into his head?
Now, Inarus was the one who gave the three the information on how to corrupt the soul stones, but who says he told them the truth?
Here’s where my hypothesis falls into play. Let’s say that Azmodian or Belial made a deal with Inarus, who knows what, in order to screw over the three and feed them some half-truths about the soul stones. The three are immortal, but they could be hampered or restrained for a long enough time for either Belial or Azmodian to gain complete control of hell.
I think all three were cast into the abyss, but they are each one of the most powerful entities in existence, so they have the potential to return to hell in time.
From “Legacy of Blood,” we know that Azmodian had the upper hand at the time of Diablo’s little track across the desert, and Belial is searching for support from anywhere in order to keep his ass from getting whooped.
Now we are set up for Diablo 3.
The setup is Azmodian has finally gained control over hell after Diablo was defeated, Belial has escaped into the mortal realm, and now there is a very noticeable barrier between Heaven, Sanctuary, and Hell (The pandemonium fortress was a direct link between heaven and hell, so I’m imagining some blending like that)
Azmodian is poised to destroy the mortal realm and then move on to heaven, while Belial has made the mortals aware of this, and being the lord of lies, attempts to lead some of the earthly forces against Azmodian.
As a hero, you help defeat Azmodian, giving Belial total control and the army he needs to take over heaven.
(Another fight with Inarus would be an awesome fight during this too).
Now the balance is no longer maintained, and perhaps trang’ oul gets involved at this point. Somehow, he gets the three back from the abyss in order to get after Belial. OH SNAP!!!
The three would be against Belial, trying to regian control of their forces.
At the same time as belial was converting people, however, heaven was setting up its own scheme and getting some to there side (Paladins and other Zealot types). So they were taking the rope a dope approach, but with the return of the three, that was messed up as well. Tyrael gets a hold of you, the hero, and devises some sort of plan with you in order to push the forces of hell back.
Belial is already assaulting heaven as the three return, so now you have to get to heaven and start whooping some serious butt to knock out Belial. You finally smoke him, but to your surprise, here come the three from behind converting back their forces and ready to make their own assault upon the world.
This would probably require some sort of expansion, but it would be the final assault between heaven and hell.
I’m not sure how all of this is going to set up. Any Ideas?
His Hair Was PERFECT!!!
I think the void actually refers to the domain of Trag'Oul whereas the Abyss probably refers to a particular region in the deepest reaches of Hell.
Dude, it wasn't Inarius, it was Izual.
Warning, the rest of this post contains spoilers from the Sin War Trilogy, you've been warned
There's an important point that all you guys seem to have forgotten. The Worldstone was used by Inarius to neutralized the powers of the Nephalem, and with its destruction the Nephalem will inevitably return. If Tyrael is indeed dead or corrupted, it is very likely that with the influence of the rest of the Angiris Council that Heaven will turn against humanity. It won't be Sanctuary + Heaven Vs Hell anymore, it will become a three sided war with Sanctuary at the middle.
Also I think that it's possible that the destruction of the Worldstone was planned by the Three from the beginning. Notice how much Fara or Cain put the emphasis on how much Tal Rasha's powers are making Baal stronger. Now imagine just how powerful a Demon like Diablo would be if he possessed a Nephalem like Uldyssian. He would literally become an invicible God of Terror and crush both Sanctuary and Heaven with a sneeze.
That's what I think the Three were after for all this time, and the question now is how are they going to do it?
All in the Forger's wake is left bereft and fallow-Excerpt from the Litany of Residuum;
As Translated by He Who Brings Order
Well, no one really knows but considering that they can live for a very long time, it is very likely that some of them are still alive in a way or another like the Guardians of the Arreat Summit.
Well if you really want to know, Inarius hated the Nephalem because he thought they were to powerful and hazardous, so he used the Worldstone to turn there offsprings into powerless little mortals. The Worldstone doesn't necessarily have neutralizing powers, in fact Uldyssian used it to reverse Inarius spell which in turn most likely created the heroes we know nowadays.
Need moar infoz!
Also, if anyone knows, I would love to know:
From what NPC's say in Diablo 1, Adria the Witch appeared, set up a shack very quickly the day before all the bad stuff happened, and it appears she left when Diablo was defeated or around that time.. and she is no where to be found in Diablo II.
I hear there was suppose to be a Diablo II patch players called the Adria patch.. but that must have been a no go..
What is up with Adria the Witch?
Well most of the Nephalem became regular humans because of how the Worldstone affected them.
As for after the Sin War trilogy, we can only assume that something started happening to people all over the world after the death of Uldyssian.
There's no official information about it, but I have a feeling that the Horadrim might be some sort of third generation of Nephalem, notice how close it sounds to Edyrem.
If only lessening the power of the Worldstone over humanity created a godlike mageclan we can only imagine what its destruction will do over time.
That's a very good point.