You don't need proof of angels existence. You don't need proof of God's existence there just there. There is a certain order to the world isn't there? I find it hard to believe that the world was just formed overnight by some explosion. Lifeforms can't become new lifeforms. Everything is it's own kind. The Bible clearly states this. The Devil is just as real as God and so are fallen angels, Demons. People have had haunted homes. They have been haunted by a "ghost or spirit when in reality these are DEMONS. When people die they either go to Heaven or Burn in Hell. It's that simple. There is an afterlife. There is a God, and there are Angels. I am a Christian. This is truth.
Quote from "JAZZ" »
Ok, I don't think Muslims think that is true, What makes Christianity right and every other religion wrong?
Quote from "Umpa65" »
iOK, I don't think muslims think that is true, What makes Christianity right and every other religion wrong?"
First off, faith. Second off, the bible. If your going to be a REAL christian and ACTUALLY read the bible then that person will quickly find that it's teachings specify only one true religion. so in result you cant be a christian without thinking that there is only one true religion
Quote from "winstonthe4th" »
I don't see why I (Christian) can't be wrong and the Muslims right...Or why we could both be half right, and have some of the story. Or Christians could be the only ones right. Or we could all be right on the things we agree with (that there is a god etc.). Or atheists could be right. So many possibilities and I hate restricting my beliefs to one thing.
There isn't really guidelines for a REAL Christian in terms of beliefs, besides following the teachings of Jesus.
Quote from "JAZZ" »
Becuase somebody wrote the bible that makes Christianity absolutely true? Just becuase you think one religion is true, everyone elses is wrong? Like winston said, Maybe Athiests are right, Maybe there is no God, Maybe We should worship no other but ourselves, Why should we worship something we know nothing about? Why is it that a story becomes true even with no proof? Also the Bible says all gays go to Hell, Thanks a lot bible for starting one of the biggest discriminations of our time.
lol, here is most of the convo.
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I am not a fan of Jazz music.
on a good day.... Optimistic and freedom-loving Jovial
and good-humored Honest and straightforward
Intellectual and philosophical
On a bad day.... Blindly optimistic and careless
Irresponsible and superficial Tactless and restless
No the logical conclusion would be that a group of people decided to make up some stuff to help them get a point across and also that during the numerous rewritings and translations that certain people who want to see patterns where there are none altered things so that "random meteor" became "angel" and "random sun beam through cloud" became "angel" etc.
-edit-
Creep, thanks for those video links, haven't seen them before and haven't had a good laugh in a while!
I've never heard that about the translations..ever. I'm gonna have to disagree and say that you are going off of what someone told you because I've never heard anything of SERIOUS significance as to manipulation with originals. It's not really possible because we have a lot of stuff that would be considered original and primary so people have the ability to check that stuff themselves. This would be a HUGE issue if what you are saying is true.
God Jazz that was from forever ago. Let me reiterate my point for clarification, a christian cant say "maybe Allah is the real god", well they can but it would be doubting their faith, and according to christianity there is only one true god, whether we all worship the same one or not is certainly a mystery to me.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
I've never heard that about the translations..ever. I'm gonna have to disagree and say that you are going off of what someone told you because I've never heard anything of SERIOUS significance as to manipulation with originals. It's not really possible because we have a lot of stuff that would be considered original and primary so people have the ability to check that stuff themselves. This would be a HUGE issue if what you are saying is true.
really? nothing about translation issues? wow. go get yourself more than one version of a bible and see for yourself.
edit: oh nvm, i read more carefully, and i agree, hes a bit over the hill...
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Remember the String of Ears
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."
really? nothing about translation issues? wow. go get yourself more than one version of a bible and see for yourself.
no no no, dont twist ma words palease
I said, no translation issues of REAL significance. of COURSE there are issues with certain words and their meaning but NEVER has the word angel been misconstrued. Some of the main translation issues i personally know of are the ones that try to say jesus was god, that a soul may or may not be a physical or spiritual thing based on greek translation. there are some more but those are off the top of my head.
What i was implying was, yes there are bibles with flaws, but for the most part there is nothing misconstrued as angel when it means meteor, or anything that severe.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
I said, no translation issues of REAL significance. of COURSE there are issues with certain words and their meaning but NEVER has the word angel been misconstrued. Some of the main translation issues i personally know of are the ones that try to say jesus was god, that a soul may or may not be a physical or spiritual thing based on greek translation. there are some more but those are off the top of my head.
What i was implying was, yes there are bibles with flaws, but for the most part there is nothing misconstrued as angel when it means meteor, or anything that severe.
i know, read my edit...hes going batty over meteors...
but read what i said earlier
seriously though, you cant take the bible literally. angels are said to be messengers and guardians, those two descriptions have multiple meanings to multiple people. also in a more logical standpoint, when a 'miracle' or un-worldly event happens, and no one knows the cause because of knowledge limitations, the give a divine shading to it.
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Remember the String of Ears
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."
i know, read my edit...hes going batty over meteors...
but read what i said earlier
haha ya, i think people try to think that people from thousands of years ago where absolutely stupid and almost retarded. Yes they lacked some of the technology we have but there is a clear line between superstitious and "ZOMG OMFG I JUST SAW A DUDE WIT DA WINGS!HAXXXXX" I dont think they were THAT confused rofl.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
haha ya, i think people try to think that people from thousands of years ago where absolutely stupid and almost retarded. Yes they lacked some of the technology we have but there is a clear line between superstitious and "ZOMG OMFG I JUST SAW A DUDE WIT DA WINGS!HAXXXXX" I dont think they were THAT confused rofl.
i dont think you can see angels...but most people meant angel as a holy messenger or guardian, so if they survived some horrible disease, or really good news came, they would say it was divine intervention.
and they were pretty confused during the Salem witch trials...so i dont trust their mental state either...
i dont believe the bible mentions wings either on angels...but i dont comb through it daily so im not sure.
EDIT: the bible does give a description of angels. Revelation 4:8 describes seraphim and Ezekiel 10 describes Cherubs
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Remember the String of Ears
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."
IF there truly was no god, what would lead people to believe in a god in the first place?
Quote from "Umpa65"" »
If evolution was correct at first it may seem plausable that a cave man would see things in the sky and be like " CRUG SAY IT BE GOD!" but that doesn't make sense when you really think about it. If their brains were evolving and if there was no god then it would be an illogical concept that would be untrue and have no purpose in evolution, so if they EVOLVED then why did they come up with this "primitive concept"?
Superstition proper is older than deistic superstition. It would seem that it is a side-effect of the tendency to attribute agency to forces without agency, which, in ancient hominids, survived because it helped them survive.
Superstition, and therein religion, had a survival advantage insofar as it is a product of the human tendency to 'overshoot' in attributing agency -- since from an evolutionary perspective, in a primitive life it is better to be wrong in attributing too much agency to things in the environment than to be another agent's dinner due to a failure to attribute enough agency (such as to predators), so religiosity had a survival advantage. At the root of human belief in deities lies an instinct on a hair trigger: the disposition to attribute agency -- beliefs and desires and other mental states -- to anything complicated that moves. The false alarms generated by our overactive disposition to look for agents wherever the action is are the irritants around which the pearls of religion grow.
Another way of putting it is that religion was a proto-science: observing facts and forming a theory to explain those facts, but lacking much ability to verify or falsify those theories and thus relying solely on instinctual preference.
Later, as our ancestors began to establish systems we would recognise as civilisations, religion then began to serve the more casual evolutionary purpose of organisation. It has steadily lost its relevance, like a redundant organ, failing to evolve out of our makeup because while it is no longer being selected for, it is also not being selected against.
Quote from "Umpa65" »
Why do we have all these religions and such if the logical explanation for it all is to not believe in a god because we have no proof? If there was never a god there would certainly be no proof for them.
And there isn't, so I don't see your point there.
Quote from "Umpa65" »
It's like, people that do have that "faith" do so because they feel that waayyy back in the day, people DID see things like angels, demons, and the red sea splitting apart. And maybe some giant ass angel/human babies courtesy of The Book Of Enoch (not in the bible). But if non of this stuff actually HAPPENED way back in the day then what did they believe in? There was no, ancient people before them, they WERE the ancient people.
There were about 250 thousand years of 'ancient people' before them. Seven million years if you count the hominids that came before Homo sapiens.
Quote from "Umpa65" »
And then there's this question. People were smart during the Renaissance, when they all decided the catholic church SUCKED why didn't they do away with the whole concept. If it's logical for humans to believe religion to be false why didn't they logically think it out then and get rid of it? If humans were evolving then also our concepts would, but apparently we have ALWAYS had the same concepts of religion.
Bodies don't evolve in such a blink of an eye, and neither do ideas.
The Renaissance was intellectually prosperous, yes. It was also under the weight of a few hundred thousand years of religious memes and overactive assumptions of agency. You can't dump something like that so quickly. Not any more than you could evolve out of fur or a tail in similar time.
Quote from "Umpa65" »
Lets go with the bible for a sec, why would they lie about say....seeing an angel or something. I dont think that would happen, all those writings obviously seem heart felt and honest.
How do you determine honesty or dishonesty from a translation of a translation of a translation of manuscripts written in ancient languages/dialects by a number of different people? Such subtle cues do not even translate from one modern language to another.
Hell, how do you determine honesty or dishonesty in text at all, even in your first language? If I told you several conflicting stories of my life, would you be able to determine fact from fiction?
Quote from "Umpa65" »
Why was there a period of sooo many people writing about all these incredible sittings? Why wouldn't it ALWAYS happen if it was all just mental insanity? I dont think that many people could be crazy, it seems improbable.
I don't want to be rude, but don't tell me you believe that UFOs are alien visitors, too.
It's not about being crazy, just mistaken, or dishonest.
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‘I'M NOT LEAVING UNTIL WE ALL HAVE AIDS!’—The importance of calling them ‘mercenaries.’
Superstition proper is older than deistic superstition. It would seem that it is a side-effect of the tendency to attribute agency to forces without agency, which, in ancient hominids, survived because it helped them survive.
Superstition, and therein religion, had a survival advantage insofar as it is a product of the human tendency to 'overshoot' in attributing agency -- since from an evolutionary perspective, in a primitive life it is better to be wrong in attributing too much agency to things in the environment than to be another agent's dinner due to a failure to attribute enough agency (such as to predators), so religiosity had a survival advantage. At the root of human belief in deities lies an instinct on a hair trigger: the disposition to attribute agency -- beliefs and desires and other mental states -- to anything complicated that moves. The false alarms generated by our overactive disposition to look for agents wherever the action is are the irritants around which the pearls of religion grow.
Another way of putting it is that religion was a proto-science: observing facts and forming a theory to explain those facts, but lacking much ability to verify or falsify those theories and thus relying solely on instinctual preference.
Later, as our ancestors began to establish systems we would recognise as civilisations, religion then began to serve the more casual evolutionary purpose of organisation. It has steadily lost its relevance, like a redundant organ, failing to evolve out of our makeup because while it is no longer being selected for, it is also not being selected against.
And there isn't, so I don't see your point there.
There were about 250 thousand years of 'ancient people' before them. Seven million years if you count the hominids that came before Homo sapiens.
Bodies don't evolve in such a blink of an eye, and neither do ideas.
The Renaissance was intellectually prosperous, yes. It was also under the weight of a few hundred thousand years of religious memes and overactive assumptions of agency. You can't dump something like that so quickly. Not any more than you could evolve out of fur or a tail in similar time.
How do you determine honesty or dishonesty from a translation of a translation of a translation of manuscripts written in ancient languages/dialects by a number of different people? Such subtle cues do not even translate from one modern language to another.
Hell, how do you determine honesty or dishonesty in text even in your first language? If I told you several conflicting stories of my life, would you be able to determine fact from fiction?
I don't want to be rude, but don't tell me you believe that UFOs are alien visitors, too.
It's not about being crazy, just mistaken, or dishonest.
Good points but you failed to answer my last question and i think a brief review of nasa footage makes great reason for a debate as to extraterrestrial intelligent life. So i hope that you are not one of those people that feel that science has left no part of the universe unscathed and that there is no chance that another being in the universe exits. If so i am sorry to tell you but you are sadly mistaken, not even many scientists of real intelligence put the idea of extraterrestrial intelligent existence out of question.
And on the translation thing. That is a weak argument, there are writings from the cave of Qumran i think that are older than most of the original bible manuscripts we had for hundreds of years that have been translated without any problems. The oldest of such writings in whole are Ethiopic in language with some Aramaic fragments and some surviving fragments in old slavonic.
If translation was really THAT big of an issue then there would be much to argue but the fact of the matter is that such piece of work have been translated beautifully.
When it comes to recognizing intent from a writer in your own language it isn't THAT difficult with a bit of study, there you are trying to discredit the information when much of it is a great historical attribution to human history with accuracy.
Also i find it hard to believe that those writers are so insane that EVERY one of them that experienced some sort of angelic encounter could ALL be able to have a dialog with something they didn't actually speak with and didn't exist in some way or another.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Good points but you failed to answer my last question and i think a brief review of nasa footage makes great reason for a debate as to extraterrestrial intelligent life. So i hope that you are not one of those people that feel that science has left no part of the universe unscathed and that there is no chance that another being in the universe exits. If so i am sorry to tell you but you are sadly mistaken, not even many scientists of real intelligence put the idea of extraterrestrial intelligent existence out of question.
The existence of intelligent extraterrestrial life is a matter utterly separate from UFOs being alien visitors. The former is a matter of extremely high probability and the focus of extensive future exploration into an infinite universe, while the latter is a mess of bullshit comparable to angel sightings, yeti sightings, and faerie sightings.
Quote from "Umpa65" »
And on the translation thing. That is a weak argument, there are writings from the cave of Qumran i think that are older than most of the original bible manuscripts we had for hundreds of years that have been translated without any problems. The oldest of such writings in whole are Ethiopic in language with some Aramaic fragments and some surviving fragments in old slavonic.
I don't know what you're getting at. I'm well aware that translation happens and I know very intimately how it works. My point was not about accuracy, it was about what gets lost in translation. No language has perfect cognates for all of its words in every other. Most wordplay of any kind, for instance, is annihilated in translation from most any language to most any other. Words cease to rhyme, words with multiple meanings in one language translate into words with more or fewer meanings in another, and so on.
Quote from "Umpa65" »
When it comes to recognizing intent from a writer in your own language it isn't THAT difficult with a bit of study, there you are trying to discredit the information when much of it is a great historical attribution to human history with accuracy.
You stated that they seemed honest to you. I was responding to that.
Quote from "Umpa65" »
Also i find it hard to believe that those writers are so insane that EVERY one of them that experienced some sort of angelic encounter could ALL be able to have a dialog with something they didn't actually speak with and didn't exist in some way or another.
All it takes is one ghost story to spook a person into believing that they have had a 'sighting' or an 'encounter'. If it is evocative enough, it spreads, and if it spreads enough, the effect can be tremendous. As I have said, mental illness doesn't enter into it. Probably in some cases, but obviously not in most. It's pretty fundamental human psychology. No abnormality required.
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‘I'M NOT LEAVING UNTIL WE ALL HAVE AIDS!’—The importance of calling them ‘mercenaries.’
This thread is off topic enough that I'm going to reply to a post from the third page (I think) which I don't think was answered.
If he (God) is so benevolent, how come there is suffering in the world, among his worshippers too?
The suffering comes from Sin, and don't get it wrong, God didn't create Sin, he gave Angels and Humans a choice, and they chose sin.
Lucifer was the greatest angel. Lucifer became proud and thought himself greater than God, so he decided to sin, the theological definition of which, is displease God. He went to the garden to try and prove he was greater than God by making Adam and Eve eat from the 1 tree God had forbidden them from, he forbid it from them so they would have a choice between Sin and Righteousness. It would otherwise be impossible to Sin in the garden, and thus Adam and Eve might as well have just been mindless little people doing the only thing they ever could. Without making any choices, we would just be animals, God made us the kings and queens of the world by giving us the ability to choose.
God didn't create sin, god allowed us the choice, and we chose it. Don't fool yourself.
The Dark Knight is a great analogy. The Joker=Lucifer, he proved anyone could fall to sin in Harvey Dent, 2 face.
This thread is off topic enough that I'm going to reply to a post from the third page (I think) which I don't think was answered.
The suffering comes from Sin, and don't get it wrong, God didn't create Sin, he gave Angels and Humans a choice, and they chose sin.
Lucifer was the greatest angel. Lucifer became proud and thought himself greater than God, so he decided to sin, the theological definition of which, is displease God. He went to the garden to try and prove he was greater than God by making Adam and Eve eat from the 1 tree God had forbidden them from, he forbid it from them so they would have a choice between Sin and Righteousness. It would otherwise be impossible to Sin in the garden, and thus Adam and Eve might as well have just been mindless little people doing the only thing they ever could. Without making any choices, we would just be animals, God made us the kings and queens of the world by giving us the ability to choose.
God didn't create sin, god allowed us the choice, and we chose it. Don't fool yourself.
The Dark Knight is a great analogy. The Joker=Lucifer, he proved anyone could fall to sin in Harvey Dent, 2 face.
You can have choice without sin. Lust for instance, is something hardwired into the human brain along with many other animals that must continue their species with sexual reproduction. Lust influences humans to sin. However, this one of many sources of sin, is not needed to create an animal or machine that makes decisions.
The basic answer to that question, which i probably covered in about page 50 or so is 1 john 5:19, according to the bible its not God doing these things, like war and all that other stuff, it is the devil. So when everyone asks how could God do this (I'm addressing people lacking faith in God because of events that produce transcendentalism that want an answer from the bible to dismiss their doubt), he isn't doing it, Satan is. They made a bet basically, how many people can Satan turn against God, God agreed and (keep in mind, according to the bible) gave Satan a time period to do this. So for that time period Lucifer is the ruler of the earth. Not in the sense that he can kill people outright but that he can manipulate and get people to DO what he desired without God interfering except for trying to just give humans the knowledge of the situation and letting them choose. And during this course of time, the deaths of billions from war, genocide, murders, etc go on Satan's shoulders.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Lucifer wanted to make it so we had no choice, so we would all choose right and go back to heaven, he wanted this plan so he could get all the glory of saving mankind. But God's plan was to give us agency and trials. If we had no trials in life we would not become as strong as we could. I am not talking about war, that is lucifer and mans own creation, due to intolerance and pride. Jesus volunteered to be sacrificed and to be our savior, but not for glory, he did what he did out of love and said the glory be thine(god's). And what some may see as "superstitions" others may call Faith.
I know this is only a bitter argument where the atheist type people will only disagree and try to discredit religious beliefs, but oh well, it still will never change what I believe.
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"This is the triumph of man:
Where there is truth, he must find.
Where there is destruction, he must rebuild.
Where there is love, he must protect."
World's Fair Exhibit
"God gave us memories, that in life's garden we may have June roses in December."
Lucifer wanted to make it so we had no choice, so we would all choose right and go back to heaven, he wanted this plan so he could get all the glory of saving mankind. But God's plan was to give us agency and trials. If we had no trials in life we would not become as strong as we could. I am not talking about war, that is lucifer and mans own creation, due to intolerance and pride. Jesus volunteered to be sacrificed and to be our savior, but not for glory, he did what he did out of love and said the glory be thine(god's). And what some may see as "superstitions" others may call Faith.
I know this is only a bitter argument where the atheist type people will only disagree and try to discredit religious beliefs, but oh well, it still will never change what I believe.
go you! nah, i can only think of a FEW atheists here, or possible ones at least that are actually rude.
Most are pleasant, me n jazz may argue a bit but its all in fun,i know Equinox and magistrate seem to be neutral and on the fence about it(at least im pretty sure i've seen Equinox take the standpoint of both sides before). Just ignore the really narrow minded ones that have hilarious superiority complexes and think all religious people are idiotic because of faith, you cant change them so why bother presenting a point to deaf ears and blind eyes. You can tell who is actually here to converse and not argue. Dont get trapped by the ones that will argue you to death because you might find yourself flamming back roflcopter. :thumbsup:
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
go you! nah, i can only think of a FEW atheists here, or possible ones at least that are actually rude.
Most are pleasant, me n jazz may argue a bit but its all in fun,i know Equinox and magistrate seem to be neutral and on the fence about it(at least im pretty sure i've seen Equinox take the standpoint of both sides before). Just ignore the really narrow minded ones that have hilarious superiority complexes and think all religious people are idiotic because of faith, you cant change them so why bother presenting a point to deaf ears and blind eyes. You can tell who is actually here to converse and not argue. Dont get trapped by the ones that will argue you to death because you might find yourself flamming back roflcopter. :thumbsup:
Yeah, sorry I didn't read the whole thread. (81 pages), but I was more going by the "Where is God in Diablo Fans thread" responses. (another religion related thread)
Cool, good point, I'll keep it in mind.
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"This is the triumph of man:
Where there is truth, he must find.
Where there is destruction, he must rebuild.
Where there is love, he must protect."
World's Fair Exhibit
"God gave us memories, that in life's garden we may have June roses in December."
I'm not neutral per se, I am a deist, and they kinda go against both parties, atheists and Christians. The more neutral person would be an agnostic, who says "I don't know if God exists or not, but I won't deny it if I see it". A deist says "A higher being exists, but his intentions are not clear and each human can worship him, or not, the way he pleases". I also don't believe in evolution, not related to deism but I don't.
I'm not neutral per se, I am a deist, and they kinda go against both parties, atheists and Christians. The more neutral person would be an agnostic, who says "I don't know if God exists or not, but I won't deny it if I see it". A deist says "A higher being exists, but his intentions are not clear and each human can worship him, or not, the way he pleases". I also don't believe in evolution, not related to deism but I don't.
I knew it was something like that.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
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lol, here is most of the convo.
I've never heard that about the translations..ever. I'm gonna have to disagree and say that you are going off of what someone told you because I've never heard anything of SERIOUS significance as to manipulation with originals. It's not really possible because we have a lot of stuff that would be considered original and primary so people have the ability to check that stuff themselves. This would be a HUGE issue if what you are saying is true.
God Jazz that was from forever ago. Let me reiterate my point for clarification, a christian cant say "maybe Allah is the real god", well they can but it would be doubting their faith, and according to christianity there is only one true god, whether we all worship the same one or not is certainly a mystery to me.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
edit: oh nvm, i read more carefully, and i agree, hes a bit over the hill...
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."
no no no, dont twist ma words palease
I said, no translation issues of REAL significance. of COURSE there are issues with certain words and their meaning but NEVER has the word angel been misconstrued. Some of the main translation issues i personally know of are the ones that try to say jesus was god, that a soul may or may not be a physical or spiritual thing based on greek translation. there are some more but those are off the top of my head.
What i was implying was, yes there are bibles with flaws, but for the most part there is nothing misconstrued as angel when it means meteor, or anything that severe.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
but read what i said earlier
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."
haha ya, i think people try to think that people from thousands of years ago where absolutely stupid and almost retarded. Yes they lacked some of the technology we have but there is a clear line between superstitious and "ZOMG OMFG I JUST SAW A DUDE WIT DA WINGS!HAXXXXX" I dont think they were THAT confused rofl.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
and they were pretty confused during the Salem witch trials...so i dont trust their mental state either...
i dont believe the bible mentions wings either on angels...but i dont comb through it daily so im not sure.
EDIT: the bible does give a description of angels. Revelation 4:8 describes seraphim and Ezekiel 10 describes Cherubs
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."
Lol, Umpa, It was an arguement I didn't want to participate in any longer so I am not going to say anything lol.
Superstition, and therein religion, had a survival advantage insofar as it is a product of the human tendency to 'overshoot' in attributing agency -- since from an evolutionary perspective, in a primitive life it is better to be wrong in attributing too much agency to things in the environment than to be another agent's dinner due to a failure to attribute enough agency (such as to predators), so religiosity had a survival advantage. At the root of human belief in deities lies an instinct on a hair trigger: the disposition to attribute agency -- beliefs and desires and other mental states -- to anything complicated that moves. The false alarms generated by our overactive disposition to look for agents wherever the action is are the irritants around which the pearls of religion grow.
Another way of putting it is that religion was a proto-science: observing facts and forming a theory to explain those facts, but lacking much ability to verify or falsify those theories and thus relying solely on instinctual preference.
Later, as our ancestors began to establish systems we would recognise as civilisations, religion then began to serve the more casual evolutionary purpose of organisation. It has steadily lost its relevance, like a redundant organ, failing to evolve out of our makeup because while it is no longer being selected for, it is also not being selected against.
And there isn't, so I don't see your point there.
There were about 250 thousand years of 'ancient people' before them. Seven million years if you count the hominids that came before Homo sapiens.
Bodies don't evolve in such a blink of an eye, and neither do ideas.
The Renaissance was intellectually prosperous, yes. It was also under the weight of a few hundred thousand years of religious memes and overactive assumptions of agency. You can't dump something like that so quickly. Not any more than you could evolve out of fur or a tail in similar time.
How do you determine honesty or dishonesty from a translation of a translation of a translation of manuscripts written in ancient languages/dialects by a number of different people? Such subtle cues do not even translate from one modern language to another.
Hell, how do you determine honesty or dishonesty in text at all, even in your first language? If I told you several conflicting stories of my life, would you be able to determine fact from fiction?
I don't want to be rude, but don't tell me you believe that UFOs are alien visitors, too.
It's not about being crazy, just mistaken, or dishonest.
‘I'M NOT LEAVING UNTIL WE ALL HAVE AIDS!’—The importance of calling them ‘mercenaries.’
Good points but you failed to answer my last question and i think a brief review of nasa footage makes great reason for a debate as to extraterrestrial intelligent life. So i hope that you are not one of those people that feel that science has left no part of the universe unscathed and that there is no chance that another being in the universe exits. If so i am sorry to tell you but you are sadly mistaken, not even many scientists of real intelligence put the idea of extraterrestrial intelligent existence out of question.
And on the translation thing. That is a weak argument, there are writings from the cave of Qumran i think that are older than most of the original bible manuscripts we had for hundreds of years that have been translated without any problems. The oldest of such writings in whole are Ethiopic in language with some Aramaic fragments and some surviving fragments in old slavonic.
If translation was really THAT big of an issue then there would be much to argue but the fact of the matter is that such piece of work have been translated beautifully.
When it comes to recognizing intent from a writer in your own language it isn't THAT difficult with a bit of study, there you are trying to discredit the information when much of it is a great historical attribution to human history with accuracy.
Also i find it hard to believe that those writers are so insane that EVERY one of them that experienced some sort of angelic encounter could ALL be able to have a dialog with something they didn't actually speak with and didn't exist in some way or another.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
I don't know what you're getting at. I'm well aware that translation happens and I know very intimately how it works. My point was not about accuracy, it was about what gets lost in translation. No language has perfect cognates for all of its words in every other. Most wordplay of any kind, for instance, is annihilated in translation from most any language to most any other. Words cease to rhyme, words with multiple meanings in one language translate into words with more or fewer meanings in another, and so on.
You stated that they seemed honest to you. I was responding to that.
Faeries. Dragons. Ghosts. Elves. Elvis. Alien abductions.
All it takes is one ghost story to spook a person into believing that they have had a 'sighting' or an 'encounter'. If it is evocative enough, it spreads, and if it spreads enough, the effect can be tremendous. As I have said, mental illness doesn't enter into it. Probably in some cases, but obviously not in most. It's pretty fundamental human psychology. No abnormality required.
‘I'M NOT LEAVING UNTIL WE ALL HAVE AIDS!’—The importance of calling them ‘mercenaries.’
The suffering comes from Sin, and don't get it wrong, God didn't create Sin, he gave Angels and Humans a choice, and they chose sin.
Lucifer was the greatest angel. Lucifer became proud and thought himself greater than God, so he decided to sin, the theological definition of which, is displease God. He went to the garden to try and prove he was greater than God by making Adam and Eve eat from the 1 tree God had forbidden them from, he forbid it from them so they would have a choice between Sin and Righteousness. It would otherwise be impossible to Sin in the garden, and thus Adam and Eve might as well have just been mindless little people doing the only thing they ever could. Without making any choices, we would just be animals, God made us the kings and queens of the world by giving us the ability to choose.
God didn't create sin, god allowed us the choice, and we chose it. Don't fool yourself.
The Dark Knight is a great analogy. The Joker=Lucifer, he proved anyone could fall to sin in Harvey Dent, 2 face.
http://www.sc2armory.com/
Sister sites.
You can have choice without sin. Lust for instance, is something hardwired into the human brain along with many other animals that must continue their species with sexual reproduction. Lust influences humans to sin. However, this one of many sources of sin, is not needed to create an animal or machine that makes decisions.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Carry on.
I know this is only a bitter argument where the atheist type people will only disagree and try to discredit religious beliefs, but oh well, it still will never change what I believe.
Where there is truth, he must find.
Where there is destruction, he must rebuild.
Where there is love, he must protect."
World's Fair Exhibit
"God gave us memories, that in life's garden we may have June roses in December."
John Barrie
go you! nah, i can only think of a FEW atheists here, or possible ones at least that are actually rude.
Most are pleasant, me n jazz may argue a bit but its all in fun,i know Equinox and magistrate seem to be neutral and on the fence about it(at least im pretty sure i've seen Equinox take the standpoint of both sides before). Just ignore the really narrow minded ones that have hilarious superiority complexes and think all religious people are idiotic because of faith, you cant change them so why bother presenting a point to deaf ears and blind eyes. You can tell who is actually here to converse and not argue. Dont get trapped by the ones that will argue you to death because you might find yourself flamming back roflcopter. :thumbsup:
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Yeah, sorry I didn't read the whole thread. (81 pages), but I was more going by the "Where is God in Diablo Fans thread" responses. (another religion related thread)
Cool, good point, I'll keep it in mind.
Where there is truth, he must find.
Where there is destruction, he must rebuild.
Where there is love, he must protect."
World's Fair Exhibit
"God gave us memories, that in life's garden we may have June roses in December."
John Barrie
I knew it was something like that.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged