Based on the Beta builds, I was taken aback at the mobility and damage output of the Demon Hunter compared to the Wizard.
That's interesting, because in a few other threads I've read today people have been disappointed with the Demon Hunter's damage and putting Wizard in a pretty good spot damage-wise.
Unless I misread your post and you were saying that Demon Hunter was surprisingly low compared to Wizard in regards to damage and mobility.
I'm thinking everyone is just seeing different things due to gear and playstyle, perhaps.
My observation was that the Demon Hunter's damage percentages seemed higher with while being able to use them in conjunction with movement (strafe and the skill with the back flip I can't think of off the top of my head). My observation of it is only based off of 1 cast of the spell and doesn't take into consideration multiple casts and regen. I think that the regen is what really balances it out.
either way im still rollin' wiz. why? cuz of dat archon. besides things can only get better...i mean look at the monks doesnt that make you feel better already?
Archon is the reason I'm rolling wiz too XD
15 seconds out of every 2 minutes = GG for demons
Demon hunter - Hungering Arrow: 230-300% wpn dmg depending on rune. (Homing capabilities, which make it near impossible to miss.)
- Generates 3 Hatred 115% Dmg & 35% Pierce
- Please explain how you arrive at 230%-300% with the runes. I have no idea how you are calculating the Pierce effect.
- Also important to note, If you compare casting time of a Magic Missile vs a Hungering Arrow, Magic Missile wins. You can literally spam MM much faster than you can Hungering Arrow. I have no idea how to calculate this but the difference is noticible.
=> Unless you can provide a formula for calculating Pierce, and compensate for the slight slowness of Hungering Arrow, your comparison is not apples vs apples.
Witch Doctor - Poison dart - splinters - 180% wpn dmg (Very efficient with low overkill, as the other darts will fly past the mob if he dies from the 1st one or 2.)
- You do ralize that moving targets are a problem with this spell right? I've had many many instances when the first dart hits but because the monster was moving the other 2 darts miss.
- Again, Poison dart - splinters is very slow compared with Magic Missile. Much slower than Hungering Arrow as well. There is no denying the time it takes to blow all 3 darts.
=> This one is disproved easily. Poison dart - splinters is much slower and not what I consider "spammable" and very often not all 3 darts will hit a target. A comparison with MM is not possible.
Now compare those to the Wizards single target abilities Wizard - Magic Missile - Charged Blast - 143% wpn dmg (Noting Special) - You're right on target here. Its a straight 143% and very very spammable. In face I venture to say the most spammable spell in D3 right now. If you assume that all 3 are the same casting time, I would seriously ask you to try all 3 spells again. At the very least you have to concede that Magic Missile - Charged Blast is at LEAST twice as fast as Poison dart - splinters.
For the second comparison, you have to take into account the differences of the spells, resource regen, weapon speed and passives used. Its a whole package. You cannot and I truly believe that you CANNOT do a direct spell vs spell comparison. The playstyle and over all dmg includes all abilities and Passives chosen.
Wizard if using Meteor and maxing dmg would probably take the passives:
- Conflaguration adds 10% to all dmg taken for 3 sec
- Glass Cannon - all dmg +15%, -10% Armor & Resists
WD if taking Zombie Bears and maxing dmg might take:
- Pierce the Veil - + 15% dmg, +30% all mana costs
Demon Hunter using Cluster Arrow might use:
- Archery - +15% increase dmg (assuming its a bow)
The Wizard is the only class with a Time Warp spell effect or Stretch Time spell effect. Both would significantly increase a wizard's damage output and provide survivability.
In Hell and beyond, there is no way a single class will fall to just 1 spell. Its a combination of spells and effects. So your constant spell by spell comparison is really illogical to me. If you wanted to do that then every single spell for each class should act the exact same way, only with different graphics. But Blizzard has crafted the spells/abilities for each class to include subtle differences with effects like DOT, Pierce, casting delay etc. I think a direct one on one class/spell comparison focusing only on highest dps is very short sighted.
PS. Not saying you shouldn't do such a comparison but you need to provide a more in depth analysis listing out assumptions and constants etc. Otherwise... like I said, very short sighted and illogical to me. Right now all your arguments just feel like a knee jerk and poorly thought out reaction.
Those all look pretty good to me. Actually, compared to the other classes, I'd say that the Wizard has more options for skills that do over 200% damage straight up. I understand that a lot of the skills do a lot less damage than when we first saw them, but that applies to all of the classes.
It's also been said already, but again you can't really determine how any class will perform later in the game from the first 13 levels of that class.
This guy seems to really like the phrase "Pale in comparison"... And any word rooted from comparison as well.
Aside from that, to the actual point of the thread, Wizards were nerfed for a good reason. They were one-shotting -everything- with their -AOE- skills. AOE skills are meant to be able to deal with groups of enemies, sure. But not be used exclusively to kill everything on the map without having to use other skills. Take Cleave for example, versus Bash. Cleave, it does more damage overall split up amongst all the targets it hits, but usually it will take two, sometimes three attacks to kill a single target. It also generates a grand total of Notawholelot of Rage for the Barb to spend. Now Bash, a single target, does a good deal more damage, can stun, and generates double the rage. And it's been like that for most of the beta.
This is what an AOE skill -should- be like though. It shouldn't be something you just spam on every mob because there are circumstances where you need strong single-target attacks (Take the Skeleton King for example). Now the reason I explained all that, and rooting back into my original main point, the Wizard's AOE skills were doing effectively as much damage as single target abilities, to everything. That's not what Blizzard wants. They want an engaging experience, and to show off all the work they've put into each class by making every skill useful, so they're catering more towards less damaging AOE, and making players think about actually using single target spells.
Now then, moving on to another point, the Wizard also has some -very- good single target style attacks as well. Take Ray of Frost, Decimate, and others. They do -massive- damage, and when runed can do quite possibly the highest single target damage available in the game, bar none.
Couple all these facts that Wizards have some of, if not the best utility in the game, and I think you have absolutely nothing to complain about. Blizzard hasn't lost sight of what they want a Wizard to be. You've lost sight of how the class is evolving to be more complete class, rather than 'just' a glass cannon.
Edit: Also, don't make the asumption that you understand more about the game mechanics than the people who've been working on this project for possibly a decade. It's just arrogant to think that way.
Another point to edit in, is that sure other classes are being buffed to match the Wizard's AOE potential with a single skill, but Wizards have a great deal -more- AOE skills than any other class, with extra perks to those abilities as well (slows, and the like).
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"I'm just getting started. I'm gonna pull the whole thing down. I gonna bring the whole fuckin' diseased, corrupt temple down on your heads. It's gonna be Biblical."
This is an joke, you're ignoring resource costs, how the resource behave and the AoE/range of skills.
Cluster Arrow costs 50 hatred. A DH can only casts two. I know meteor costs 60, however Arcane Power comes back incredibly fast while hatred don't. This is also the reason why DH's hatred generators are so freaking strong, because he have to spam then much more commonly.
The same works for zombie bears. 3 zombie bears and the WD's mana is done. And his mana takes quite a while to go back. Not to mention zombie charge is a incredibly slow spell and has very short range.
I did not ignore this, I specifically made a paragraph about this.
50 Hatred for cluster arrow
60 Arcane power for Meteor
Depending on skills and gear you could potentially match the wizards resource regeneration.
4 hatred /sec + Bat companion = +3 Hatred per second.
Wizards recovers 10 per second, thats more then twice. If wizard uses similar skill (Arcanot Familiar) he reachs 12 per second.. If he picks astral Presense, he reachs 14 AP per second, doubling the DH's amount.
Theres no comparison, DH hatred are far more limited then an wizard's AP. You can throw items in the mix, but wizards have items to buff too, it's moot point.
Wizard's spell cycles are much faster then the WD and DH one, thats why he have "weaker" spell. Because his "strong" spells are much more frequent.
3 zombie bears?!? He could cast like 9 with some decent gear! The ability to front load that much dmg is insanely good, and he can still cast cheap spells like splinters.
c =(1000-20*1.5)/(140-20*1.5) = 8.88 casts
Thats without any mana return skills as well.
I don't have any idea what those calculations represents. WD's maximun mana pool is 740 and he has an constant 20 mana per second regen at all levels.
He can cast 5.3 bears with his full mana (740/140). However his mana regen is super low compered to wiz. While an wiz takes 3.5 seconds to fully recover the AP used in casting Arcane Orb, the Which Doctor takes 7 seconds to recover the mana spent in the zombie bears.
Also you're assuming the WD casts 3 bears, each one dealing 236% weapon damage (for a total of 708%!). Thats much problably NOT the case because you don't know if the same bear can hit a target twice and you don't know how the bears behave etc... Sure, if WD are able to cause 708% weapon damage in area using only 140 mana thats plain simple OP.
In this case it's not the wizard whos too weak. It's the WD, particulary, his Zombie Bear skill, whos too strong. 708% is the kind of damage that only appears in skill with 30 seconds or more of cooldown, NO WAY he will be able to use that as standard spell. It would make Wd stronger then any other class in the game and force him to use only this skill because it is at least 4 times better then any other skill available in the game.
The Wizard can't use his spenders much more frequently. Thats just flat out false. It would be very dependent on gear and spec, and even then I would argue that it would likely favor the DH and WD. For example, the elemental arrow on the DH can be casted and casted near indefinitely. Hell, there is a whole DH thread dedicated to making builds without using generators at all.
I'm not taking gear and spec in consideration because gear and specs are at dispoosal of all 5 classes. It's moot point. If an DH can triple his hatred gen with gear, theres no reason to think the wiz can't do the same thing.
Taking only the base stats as basis for our analysis, you can cleary see the wizard uses his spenders with much higher frequency. The most expensive ability for the wizard is meteor and it takes 6 seconds to recover all the resource spend there.
The most expansive WD spell is Locust Swarm and he takes entire 19 seconds to recover the mana back. DH takes 12.5 seconds to recover the hatred spend in Cluster Arrow (less if he have targets to use his generators, still you're wasting time using an "weak" generator ability while the wiz can fuctionaly spam arcane orbs non stop).
Wizard uses his strong spells far more frequent then any other class, thats an fact. His not weaker then other classes. He can kill boss as fast as other classes just pick the damn ray of frost skill or arcane turrent.
You talk about regen for the wizard, then ignore it for the WD. You seem to just be making sweeping assumptions based on your faith that blizzard will get it right.
Then you talk about AoE and regen some more, and ignore other methods of regen.
You are seriously thinking in like 1 dimension. There are far more factors to consider with each of those points, and you are only thinking about one at a time.
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Do you want to get scammed? Perhaps a nice keylogger?
"Just google "diablo 3 gold guide" and magical rainbow covered demons will assault your eyes."
=> Unless you can provide a formula for calculating Pierce, and compensate for the slight slowness of Hungering Arrow, your comparison is not apples vs apples.
There is a thread in the DH forums that shows the pierce drastically increases the dmg output to 230%-280%. The 300% is based on one interpretation of how shatter will work, but I find it unlikely.
Cast speed/atk speed are completely dependent on weapon speed, so you don't know wtf you are talking about here.
Also with 2x 1h Xbow the DH will be able to attack much faster than the wizard.
=> This one is disproved easily. Poison dart - splinters is much slower and not what I consider "spammable" and very often not all 3 darts will hit a target. A comparison with MM is not possible.
I can't think of a single time that all 3 darts did not hit, unless I just straight up missed completely.
It is completely spammable, as it is cheaper than your regen rate.
- You're right on target here. Its a straight 143% and very very spammable. In face I venture to say the most spammable spell in D3 right now. If you assume that all 3 are the same casting time, I would seriously ask you to try all 3 spells again. At the very least you have to concede that Magic Missile - Charged Blast is at LEAST twice as fast as Poison dart - splinters.
Cast speed/atk speed are completely dependent on weapon speed, so you don't know wtf you are talking about here.
Also with 2x 1h Xbow the DH will be able to attack much faster than the wizard.
The OP is right, the wizard spells have become gimp.
Aside from that, to the actual point of the thread, Wizards were nerfed for a good reason. They were one-shotting -everything- with their -AOE- skills.
Another point to edit in, is that sure other classes are being buffed to match the Wizard's AOE potential with a single skill, but Wizards have a great deal -more- AOE skills than any other class, with extra perks to those abilities as well (slows, and the like).
Wizard AoE is all we have! There is only 1 single target spender, and even that is only slightly better, if that, then the WD and DH's cheap spells.
Again, thats the only thing the wizard has is AoE. If you give other classes superior aoe, then WTF is the point of the wizard?
There are obviously a lot of fan boys here that don't understand even basic math, or just kind of ignore it, and hope blizzard will balance things. Faith is a terrible thing.
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Do you want to get scammed? Perhaps a nice keylogger?
"Just google "diablo 3 gold guide" and magical rainbow covered demons will assault your eyes."
-I agree Wizard on paper looks weak. Wizard do, however, have superior crowd control and armor abilities than the other range classes which are in the comparison. The Wizard is not supposed to be a glass cannon - not neccesarily at least.
- The Hungering Arrow calculation is by the way way off. The arrow will have an average of ~225% weapon damage. This have however not always been the case. Just a few patches ago hungering arrow did 85% weapon dmd instead of 115%. Blizzard are doing their best covering ground.
- Nothing is final - I do however enjoy theory crafting such as this.
- Saying hungering arrow is better than arcane bolt is like saying hydra is better than turret. The comparison is weak.
Hydra is better than turret, just like Hungering arrow is way way better than magic missile. Its not rocket science, 143 < 230.
PS: How are the calculations way off for hungering arrow again? Seem fine to me, and your number only differs by 5%.
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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
DH casts hungering arrow, units get close, has to vault away, attack again, run a little, etc.
Wiz casts frost nova and spams magic missile.
Their weapon damage % is not the only thing that matters. This thread is useless.
No making up horseshit examples is what is stupid.
DH could have caltrops at his feet, just like the WI could frost nova.
DH could have to use vault, and the WI could use Teleport.
Lets compare apples to apples if we are making BS examples.
Even if he did waste 1 GCD to move defensively! Its only 1 GCD, then he is back at it again, thats not enough to merit an attack that does damn near half the dmg.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
DH casts hungering arrow, units get close, has to vault away, attack again, run a little, etc.
Wiz casts frost nova and spams magic missile.
Their weapon damage % is not the only thing that matters. This thread is useless.
Dont bother engaging the troll
Stop calling me a troll just because you are incapable of doing theorycrafting.
Thats not my fault, go up stairs and blame your mom and dad.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
DH casts hungering arrow, units get close, has to vault away, attack again, run a little, etc.
Wiz casts frost nova and spams magic missile.
Their weapon damage % is not the only thing that matters. This thread is useless.
Dont bother engaging the troll
Stop calling me a troll just because you are incapable of doing theorycrafting.
Thats not my fault, go up stairs and blame your mom and dad.
You ARE a troll. All you post is whiny complaints.
Even your name itself is a direct TROLL. It'd be like someone naming themself Antidemocrat, antiblack, antijew....
That doesn't make me a troll. Maybe a pessimist.
And I hate republicans, which is why I chose this name a long time ago. I am also anti-religion.
But, I don't consider either of those opinions trolling, as I don't discuss them here.
It is just who I am!
You are merely calling me a troll based on nothing more than the fact you don't like my opinions. That is not the definition of trolling, and certainly not a valid reason.
In fact, it is people like you who are actually trolling, because you keep personally attacking me for my opinions. You continue to make vulgar comments and flame me in a this thread, instead of voicing a legitimate opinion regarding the subject matter. That is the definition of trolling sir.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
=> Unless you can provide a formula for calculating Pierce, and compensate for the slight slowness of Hungering Arrow, your comparison is not apples vs apples.
There is a thread in the DH forums that shows the pierce drastically increases the dmg output to 230%-280%. The 300% is based on one interpretation of how shatter will work, but I find it unlikely.
Cast speed/atk speed are completely dependent on weapon speed, so you don't know wtf you are talking about here.
Also with 2x 1h Xbow the DH will be able to attack much faster than the wizard.
=> This one is disproved easily. Poison dart - splinters is much slower and not what I consider "spammable" and very often not all 3 darts will hit a target. A comparison with MM is not possible.
I can't think of a single time that all 3 darts did not hit, unless I just straight up missed completely.
It is completely spammable, as it is cheaper than your regen rate.
- You're right on target here. Its a straight 143% and very very spammable. In face I venture to say the most spammable spell in D3 right now. If you assume that all 3 are the same casting time, I would seriously ask you to try all 3 spells again. At the very least you have to concede that Magic Missile - Charged Blast is at LEAST twice as fast as Poison dart - splinters.
Cast speed/atk speed are completely dependent on weapon speed, so you don't know wtf you are talking about here.
Also with 2x 1h Xbow the DH will be able to attack much faster than the wizard.
The OP is right, the wizard spells have become gimp.
Aside from that, to the actual point of the thread, Wizards were nerfed for a good reason. They were one-shotting -everything- with their -AOE- skills.
Another point to edit in, is that sure other classes are being buffed to match the Wizard's AOE potential with a single skill, but Wizards have a great deal -more- AOE skills than any other class, with extra perks to those abilities as well (slows, and the like).
Wizard AoE is all we have! There is only 1 single target spender, and even that is only slightly better, if that, then the WD and DH's cheap spells.
Again, thats the only thing the wizard has is AoE. If you give other classes superior aoe, then WTF is the point of the wizard?
There are obviously a lot of fan boys here that don't understand even basic math, or just kind of ignore it, and hope blizzard will balance things. Faith is a terrible thing.
My understanding is that attack speeds are based on weapon speed, however some abilities can have an increased coefficient. For example, Fists of Thunder, the monk's first spirit generator is something like 40% increased attack speed over basic attack and the other generators are between 15% and 30% faster than basic attack. Assuming the same can apply to other classes, it's entirely possible magic missile is faster than the abilities it's being compared to.
This is an joke, you're ignoring resource costs, how the resource behave and the AoE/range of skills.
Cluster Arrow costs 50 hatred. A DH can only casts two. I know meteor costs 60, however Arcane Power comes back incredibly fast while hatred don't. This is also the reason why DH's hatred generators are so freaking strong, because he have to spam then much more commonly.
The same works for zombie bears. 3 zombie bears and the WD's mana is done. And his mana takes quite a while to go back. Not to mention zombie charge is a incredibly slow spell and has very short range.
I did not ignore this, I specifically made a paragraph about this.
50 Hatred for cluster arrow
60 Arcane power for Meteor
Depending on skills and gear you could potentially match the wizards resource regeneration.
4 hatred /sec + Bat companion = +3 Hatred per second.
Wizards recovers 10 per second, thats more then twice. If wizard uses similar skill (Arcanot Familiar) he reachs 12 per second.. If he picks astral Presense, he reachs 14 AP per second, doubling the DH's amount.
Theres no comparison, DH hatred are far more limited then an wizard's AP. You can throw items in the mix, but wizards have items to buff too, it's moot point.
Wizard's spell cycles are much faster then the WD and DH one, thats why he have "weaker" spell. Because his "strong" spells are much more frequent.
3 zombie bears?!? He could cast like 9 with some decent gear! The ability to front load that much dmg is insanely good, and he can still cast cheap spells like splinters.
c =(1000-20*1.5)/(140-20*1.5) = 8.88 casts
Thats without any mana return skills as well.
I don't have any idea what those calculations represents. WD's maximun mana pool is 740 and he has an constant 20 mana per second regen at all levels.
He can cast 5.3 bears with his full mana (740/140). However his mana regen is super low compered to wiz. While an wiz takes 3.5 seconds to fully recover the AP used in casting Arcane Orb, the Which Doctor takes 7 seconds to recover the mana spent in the zombie bears.
Also you're assuming the WD casts 3 bears, each one dealing 236% weapon damage (for a total of 708%!). Thats much problably NOT the case because you don't know if the same bear can hit a target twice and you don't know how the bears behave etc... Sure, if WD are able to cause 708% weapon damage in area using only 140 mana thats plain simple OP.
In this case it's not the wizard whos too weak. It's the WD, particulary, his Zombie Bear skill, whos too strong. 708% is the kind of damage that only appears in skill with 30 seconds or more of cooldown, NO WAY he will be able to use that as standard spell. It would make Wd stronger then any other class in the game and force him to use only this skill because it is at least 4 times better then any other skill available in the game.
The Wizard can't use his spenders much more frequently. Thats just flat out false. It would be very dependent on gear and spec, and even then I would argue that it would likely favor the DH and WD. For example, the elemental arrow on the DH can be casted and casted near indefinitely. Hell, there is a whole DH thread dedicated to making builds without using generators at all.
I'm not taking gear and spec in consideration because gear and specs are at dispoosal of all 5 classes. It's moot point. If an DH can triple his hatred gen with gear, theres no reason to think the wiz can't do the same thing.
Taking only the base stats as basis for our analysis, you can cleary see the wizard uses his spenders with much higher frequency. The most expensive ability for the wizard is meteor and it takes 6 seconds to recover all the resource spend there.
The most expansive WD spell is Locust Swarm and he takes entire 19 seconds to recover the mana back. DH takes 12.5 seconds to recover the hatred spend in Cluster Arrow (less if he have targets to use his generators, still you're wasting time using an "weak" generator ability while the wiz can fuctionaly spam arcane orbs non stop).
Wizard uses his strong spells far more frequent then any other class, thats an fact. His not weaker then other classes. He can kill boss as fast as other classes just pick the damn ray of frost skill or arcane turrent.
You talk about regen for the wizard, then ignore it for the WD. You seem to just be making sweeping assumptions based on your faith that blizzard will get it right.
Then you talk about AoE and regen some more, and ignore other methods of regen.
You are seriously thinking in like 1 dimension. There are far more factors to consider with each of those points, and you are only thinking about one at a time.
You can't compered Wiz and WD regen because the resource system in those two classes are too different. Wiz have small pool but regen faster, Wd have large pool but regen much slower. The only way to compere those two classes is by doing simulations.
Care to even quote what "sweeping assumptions" i'm making ?
Other methods of regen are important, i agree. The DH for exemple can regen his hatred using basic attacks w/o runes and other passives, unlike the wizard. Still, the only way to analyse it is by running an two skill simulations.
Care to remeber other classes have access to other methods of regen too, not only the WD and the DH. I'm assuming all effects besides the basic stats are simetrical (by simetry I mean, if one class can double his resource gain with items, any other class can do that too). Thats not an heavy hypothesis once this game is built in symetrical way (all classes are equally gear dependent, by design). Unless you show some evidence gear (or other factors) affects character's differently you can't use that as arguement.
Until that day, talking about gear/passives/rune effects in this thread is 100% moot point once those mechanics are available to all classes and theres NO reason to think one of those features will benefict a class more then the others.
And all my post said was, in small words:
You can't compare the the weapon damage % of two different skills without taking resources in consideration. When it's the skills of two different classes you have calculate the cycle (which takes in consideration resource maximun pool and regen). An easier way too do analyse is see how much time the class takes to get back the resource you spend on that skill and divide the weapon damage by that number (which represents the DPS of the skill under balanced resource use).
Now if you want take everything in consideration (gear, passives, maximun resource pool), run a simulator or shut up about it.
I make simulators, while people like you twiddle your thumbs and ask how to plug in values.
I am telling you, that you don't need a simulator. This is not WoW, the game style is very different. You can simply look at flat %dmg, and how long they can sustain that dmg. And you do not need a simulator to do that...
Hell even in WoW, its usually that simple as well. The simulators just confirm what we suspect. Especially for casters, that is stupidly easy. The simulators are more for the stats, than the rotation or priority.
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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
Archon is the reason I'm rolling wiz too XD
15 seconds out of every 2 minutes = GG for demons
- Generates 3 Hatred 115% Dmg & 35% Pierce
- Please explain how you arrive at 230%-300% with the runes. I have no idea how you are calculating the Pierce effect.
- Also important to note, If you compare casting time of a Magic Missile vs a Hungering Arrow, Magic Missile wins. You can literally spam MM much faster than you can Hungering Arrow. I have no idea how to calculate this but the difference is noticible.
=> Unless you can provide a formula for calculating Pierce, and compensate for the slight slowness of Hungering Arrow, your comparison is not apples vs apples.
Witch Doctor - Poison dart - splinters - 180% wpn dmg (Very efficient with low overkill, as the other darts will fly past the mob if he dies from the 1st one or 2.)
- You do ralize that moving targets are a problem with this spell right? I've had many many instances when the first dart hits but because the monster was moving the other 2 darts miss.
- Again, Poison dart - splinters is very slow compared with Magic Missile. Much slower than Hungering Arrow as well. There is no denying the time it takes to blow all 3 darts.
=> This one is disproved easily. Poison dart - splinters is much slower and not what I consider "spammable" and very often not all 3 darts will hit a target. A comparison with MM is not possible.
Now compare those to the Wizards single target abilities
Wizard - Magic Missile - Charged Blast - 143% wpn dmg (Noting Special)
- You're right on target here. Its a straight 143% and very very spammable. In face I venture to say the most spammable spell in D3 right now. If you assume that all 3 are the same casting time, I would seriously ask you to try all 3 spells again. At the very least you have to concede that Magic Missile - Charged Blast is at LEAST twice as fast as Poison dart - splinters.
For the second comparison, you have to take into account the differences of the spells, resource regen, weapon speed and passives used. Its a whole package. You cannot and I truly believe that you CANNOT do a direct spell vs spell comparison. The playstyle and over all dmg includes all abilities and Passives chosen.
Wizard if using Meteor and maxing dmg would probably take the passives:
- Conflaguration adds 10% to all dmg taken for 3 sec
- Glass Cannon - all dmg +15%, -10% Armor & Resists
WD if taking Zombie Bears and maxing dmg might take:
- Pierce the Veil - + 15% dmg, +30% all mana costs
Demon Hunter using Cluster Arrow might use:
- Archery - +15% increase dmg (assuming its a bow)
The Wizard is the only class with a Time Warp spell effect or Stretch Time spell effect. Both would significantly increase a wizard's damage output and provide survivability.
In Hell and beyond, there is no way a single class will fall to just 1 spell. Its a combination of spells and effects. So your constant spell by spell comparison is really illogical to me. If you wanted to do that then every single spell for each class should act the exact same way, only with different graphics. But Blizzard has crafted the spells/abilities for each class to include subtle differences with effects like DOT, Pierce, casting delay etc. I think a direct one on one class/spell comparison focusing only on highest dps is very short sighted.
PS. Not saying you shouldn't do such a comparison but you need to provide a more in depth analysis listing out assumptions and constants etc. Otherwise... like I said, very short sighted and illogical to me. Right now all your arguments just feel like a knee jerk and poorly thought out reaction.
Those all look pretty good to me. Actually, compared to the other classes, I'd say that the Wizard has more options for skills that do over 200% damage straight up. I understand that a lot of the skills do a lot less damage than when we first saw them, but that applies to all of the classes.
It's also been said already, but again you can't really determine how any class will perform later in the game from the first 13 levels of that class.
Aside from that, to the actual point of the thread, Wizards were nerfed for a good reason. They were one-shotting -everything- with their -AOE- skills. AOE skills are meant to be able to deal with groups of enemies, sure. But not be used exclusively to kill everything on the map without having to use other skills. Take Cleave for example, versus Bash. Cleave, it does more damage overall split up amongst all the targets it hits, but usually it will take two, sometimes three attacks to kill a single target. It also generates a grand total of Notawholelot of Rage for the Barb to spend. Now Bash, a single target, does a good deal more damage, can stun, and generates double the rage. And it's been like that for most of the beta.
This is what an AOE skill -should- be like though. It shouldn't be something you just spam on every mob because there are circumstances where you need strong single-target attacks (Take the Skeleton King for example). Now the reason I explained all that, and rooting back into my original main point, the Wizard's AOE skills were doing effectively as much damage as single target abilities, to everything. That's not what Blizzard wants. They want an engaging experience, and to show off all the work they've put into each class by making every skill useful, so they're catering more towards less damaging AOE, and making players think about actually using single target spells.
Now then, moving on to another point, the Wizard also has some -very- good single target style attacks as well. Take Ray of Frost, Decimate, and others. They do -massive- damage, and when runed can do quite possibly the highest single target damage available in the game, bar none.
Couple all these facts that Wizards have some of, if not the best utility in the game, and I think you have absolutely nothing to complain about. Blizzard hasn't lost sight of what they want a Wizard to be. You've lost sight of how the class is evolving to be more complete class, rather than 'just' a glass cannon.
Edit: Also, don't make the asumption that you understand more about the game mechanics than the people who've been working on this project for possibly a decade. It's just arrogant to think that way.
Another point to edit in, is that sure other classes are being buffed to match the Wizard's AOE potential with a single skill, but Wizards have a great deal -more- AOE skills than any other class, with extra perks to those abilities as well (slows, and the like).
- Clay Shelton
How obvious of a troll thread does something need to before it hits you the guy is intentionally posting bullshit for the sake of causing drama.
You talk about regen for the wizard, then ignore it for the WD. You seem to just be making sweeping assumptions based on your faith that blizzard will get it right.
Then you talk about AoE and regen some more, and ignore other methods of regen.
You are seriously thinking in like 1 dimension. There are far more factors to consider with each of those points, and you are only thinking about one at a time.
"Just google "diablo 3 gold guide" and magical rainbow covered demons will assault your eyes."
Cast speed/atk speed are completely dependent on weapon speed, so you don't know wtf you are talking about here.
Also with 2x 1h Xbow the DH will be able to attack much faster than the wizard.
I can't think of a single time that all 3 darts did not hit, unless I just straight up missed completely.
It is completely spammable, as it is cheaper than your regen rate.
Cast speed/atk speed are completely dependent on weapon speed, so you don't know wtf you are talking about here.
Also with 2x 1h Xbow the DH will be able to attack much faster than the wizard.
The OP is right, the wizard spells have become gimp.
Wizard AoE is all we have! There is only 1 single target spender, and even that is only slightly better, if that, then the WD and DH's cheap spells.
Again, thats the only thing the wizard has is AoE. If you give other classes superior aoe, then WTF is the point of the wizard?
There are obviously a lot of fan boys here that don't understand even basic math, or just kind of ignore it, and hope blizzard will balance things. Faith is a terrible thing.
"Just google "diablo 3 gold guide" and magical rainbow covered demons will assault your eyes."
Hydra is better than turret, just like Hungering arrow is way way better than magic missile. Its not rocket science, 143 < 230.
PS: How are the calculations way off for hungering arrow again? Seem fine to me, and your number only differs by 5%.
Epicurus
DH casts hungering arrow, units get close, has to vault away, attack again, run a little, etc.
Wiz casts frost nova and spams magic missile.
Their weapon damage % is not the only thing that matters. This thread is useless.
No making up horseshit examples is what is stupid.
DH could have caltrops at his feet, just like the WI could frost nova.
DH could have to use vault, and the WI could use Teleport.
Lets compare apples to apples if we are making BS examples.
Even if he did waste 1 GCD to move defensively! Its only 1 GCD, then he is back at it again, thats not enough to merit an attack that does damn near half the dmg.
Epicurus
Dont bother engaging the troll
Stop calling me a troll just because you are incapable of doing theorycrafting.
Thats not my fault, go up stairs and blame your mom and dad.
Epicurus
You ARE a troll. All you post is whiny complaints.
Even your name itself is a direct TROLL. It'd be like someone naming themself Antidemocrat, antiblack, antijew....
And I hate republicans, which is why I chose this name a long time ago. I am also anti-religion.
But, I don't consider either of those opinions trolling, as I don't discuss them here.
It is just who I am!
You are merely calling me a troll based on nothing more than the fact you don't like my opinions. That is not the definition of trolling, and certainly not a valid reason.
In fact, it is people like you who are actually trolling, because you keep personally attacking me for my opinions. You continue to make vulgar comments and flame me in a this thread, instead of voicing a legitimate opinion regarding the subject matter. That is the definition of trolling sir.
Epicurus
My understanding is that attack speeds are based on weapon speed, however some abilities can have an increased coefficient. For example, Fists of Thunder, the monk's first spirit generator is something like 40% increased attack speed over basic attack and the other generators are between 15% and 30% faster than basic attack. Assuming the same can apply to other classes, it's entirely possible magic missile is faster than the abilities it's being compared to.
You can't compered Wiz and WD regen because the resource system in those two classes are too different. Wiz have small pool but regen faster, Wd have large pool but regen much slower. The only way to compere those two classes is by doing simulations.
Care to even quote what "sweeping assumptions" i'm making ?
Other methods of regen are important, i agree. The DH for exemple can regen his hatred using basic attacks w/o runes and other passives, unlike the wizard. Still, the only way to analyse it is by running an two skill simulations.
Care to remeber other classes have access to other methods of regen too, not only the WD and the DH. I'm assuming all effects besides the basic stats are simetrical (by simetry I mean, if one class can double his resource gain with items, any other class can do that too). Thats not an heavy hypothesis once this game is built in symetrical way (all classes are equally gear dependent, by design). Unless you show some evidence gear (or other factors) affects character's differently you can't use that as arguement.
Until that day, talking about gear/passives/rune effects in this thread is 100% moot point once those mechanics are available to all classes and theres NO reason to think one of those features will benefict a class more then the others.
And all my post said was, in small words:
You can't compare the the weapon damage % of two different skills without taking resources in consideration. When it's the skills of two different classes you have calculate the cycle (which takes in consideration resource maximun pool and regen). An easier way too do analyse is see how much time the class takes to get back the resource you spend on that skill and divide the weapon damage by that number (which represents the DPS of the skill under balanced resource use).
Now if you want take everything in consideration (gear, passives, maximun resource pool), run a simulator or shut up about it.
I make simulators, while people like you twiddle your thumbs and ask how to plug in values.
I am telling you, that you don't need a simulator. This is not WoW, the game style is very different. You can simply look at flat %dmg, and how long they can sustain that dmg. And you do not need a simulator to do that...
Hell even in WoW, its usually that simple as well. The simulators just confirm what we suspect. Especially for casters, that is stupidly easy. The simulators are more for the stats, than the rotation or priority.
Epicurus
Read post.
Read some rage responses.
Read OP Name.
Oh ok it's that guy.
Close thread.