Devouring Arrow = 280% wpn dmg on avg
Impale is 250% dmg noncrit and 625% or 750% on crits (Depending on interpretation of skill)
Fan of Knives is 464% dmg
Rain of Vengeance is 408% wpn dmg
There are 4 % dmg modifiers,
+12% Mark of death
+20% Steady Aim
+15% Bow
+15% Cull of the weak
Someone else showed that Devouring Hunger does more like 220% later on in that thread where you posted your (very speculative), and I'm not sure if even that one takes into account that it only triggers after 2 consecutive pierces, not every pierce. Everyone else who has crunched the numbers has come up with it being behind Piercing Arrow. And those times when it does do high damage are few and far between, so it is not reliable. The vast majority of the time you'll be doing 115% with Devouring
Your passives damage boosts are not as good as Wizard passives. Cull the Weak is very conditional - you're not going to be able to get 100% of all mobs slowed by caltrops 100% of the time, so on average it probably does something more like 7% or 8% damage increase rather than 15%. And the fact that you have to spend every 8 seconds casting Caltrops instead of a damaging ability reduces your damage further (you'll have to spend time casting Mark on mobs too). Steady Aim is also conditional; you'll often not be able to stay 10 yards away from mobs. And it directly conflicts with FoK and Rain of Vengeance, where you need to be near the mobs for both.
You are doing less than 200% wpn dmg + passives. Look at the DH #s, by comparison, they are over 400%, with a generator at 230%. This isn't even a competition.
Hungering Arrow Shatter or one of the other choices is pumping out 230% dmg, which is still likely higher than the wizard even if you assume the passives aren't as good. Though the condition was this was a single target fight so it won't be hard to keep that mob slowed, or stay 10 yards away. Wizard passives have weaknesses as well, black ice only works on cold dmg for instance, so it wont be helping magic missile which you use half or more of the time.
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"Just google "diablo 3 gold guide" and magical rainbow covered demons will assault your eyes."
Devouring Arrow = 280% wpn dmg on avg
Impale is 250% dmg noncrit and 625% or 750% on crits (Depending on interpretation of skill)
Fan of Knives is 464% dmg
Rain of Vengeance is 408% wpn dmg
There are 4 % dmg modifiers,
+12% Mark of death
+20% Steady Aim
+15% Bow
+15% Cull of the weak
Someone else showed that Devouring Hunger does more like 220% later on in that thread where you posted your (very speculative), and I'm not sure if even that one takes into account that it only triggers after 2 consecutive pierces, not every pierce. Everyone else who has crunched the numbers has come up with it being behind Piercing Arrow. And those times when it does do high damage are few and far between, so it is not reliable. The vast majority of the time you'll be doing 115% with Devouring
Your passives damage boosts are not as good as Wizard passives. Cull the Weak is very conditional - you're not going to be able to get 100% of all mobs slowed by caltrops 100% of the time, so on average it probably does something more like 7% or 8% damage increase rather than 15%. And the fact that you have to spend every 8 seconds casting Caltrops instead of a damaging ability reduces your damage further (you'll have to spend time casting Mark on mobs too). Steady Aim is also conditional; you'll often not be able to stay 10 yards away from mobs. And it directly conflicts with FoK and Rain of Vengeance, where you need to be near the mobs for both.
I fixed the devouring arrow, good catch, I missed the part where it said consecutive. Its 215% dmg if you don't consider the 1st. I am not sure how you can assume that the #s are speculative though.
As far as the Wizards dmg goes, it looks like this.
The equation for calculating the # of casts possible,
c =(t+(m-a)/(a/t-r))/t
Simplified,
c =(m-r*t)/(a-r*t)
a = arcane power cost
m = maximum arcane power
r = regen rate of arcane power
t = cast time
c = # of casts
c =(100-10*2/3)/(20-10*2/3) = 7 casts
Given a 1.5 APS wand 7 casts is 7/1.5= 4.666 seconds
Assuming you start at 100 AP, then your Average % wpn Dmg
[1/3*(215+0*(1/3)/1.5*65)+1/3*(215+1*(1/3)/1.5*65)+1/3*(215+2*(1/3)/1.5*65)+1/3*(215+3*(1/3)/1.5*65)+1/3*(215+4*(1/3)/1.5*65)+4.5*280]/7 = 238% wpn dmg
It will then take 10 seconds spamming Magic Missile to regain 100 AP.
10 casts / 1.5 APS = 6.666 seconds
Average %wpn dmg per cast
(10/17 * 143 + 7/17 * 238) = 182% wpn dmg
182% wpn dmg sustained is absolutely pathetic!
Edit: Of course I did not take +crit on AP or +AP into account.
Puncturing arrow alone is 230% wpn dmg, which is over 26% better than that, so you can argue the DHs dmg buff are more situational, but it won't make up that much. And this is just generator spam!
The DH is the true Glass cannon now.
She has no armor buffs.
She has no addition resistance buffs or any other type of dmg reduction buffs.
She doesn't have a lot of dependable stuns or freezes.
She only thing she really has is kiting, and snares, but does a truckload of dmg.
While the wizard on the other hand has all that. She has become more of a CC caster, than a nuker.
Which is why I will likely go with DH as my first character, and I suggest anyone else who wants a true glass cannon experience to do the same.
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One is never hurt by being given additional choices, only by taking them away. A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
Read title.
Read post.
Read some rage responses.
Read OP Name.
Oh ok it's that guy.
Close thread.
This.
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"I'm just getting started. I'm gonna pull the whole thing down. I gonna bring the whole fuckin' diseased, corrupt temple down on your heads. It's gonna be Biblical."
Based on what, calculations? You know that disparities from calculations happen in actual practice even in a stand-and-fire game like WoW right?
It just took a glance to realize that the OP has gone on this assumption with only looking at resource cost vs damage comparison while completely ignoring the differences between each resource. Yes, I am aware he mentioned AP regen 'from runed signature spells' the fact that he only mentioned this alone shows that he doesn't have a grasp of how resource is managed up to lv 13 which can be understood just by watching beta vids.
Based on what, calculations? You know that disparities from calculations happen in actual practice even in a stand-and-fire game like WoW right?
It just took a glance to realize that the OP has gone on this assumption with only looking at resource cost vs damage comparison while completely ignoring the differences between each resource. Yes, I am aware he mentioned AP regen 'from runed signature spells' the fact that he only mentioned this alone shows that he doesn't have a grasp of how resource is managed up to lv 13 which can be understood just by watching beta vids.
Sure outliers are possible, we can merely only calculate the average, but why would you only be interested in outliers?
Maybe, you should actually read some more of the thread, and not the lol "this" comments.
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One is never hurt by being given additional choices, only by taking them away. A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
The wizard class looks extremely powerful to me. I've played around with a bunch of different build ideas and it's pretty hard imo to come up with a bad one.
Here's a build that shows some of the highest damage skills the wizard class has. It's not an actual build, but just the highest damaging skills imo.
The wizard does not lack in damage. Arcane torrent with death blossom deals 670% damage, but you can't control what get's damaged. So what, it's spammable huge damage.
Meteor with the meteor shower rune does potentially over 500% damage.
Storm armor with strike back does 91% weapon damage to any enemy that attacks you from range or melee. That's a constant free damage source.
Disintegrate with volatility has a 35% chance when killing a mob to cause them to explode for 395% damage in an 8yd radius.
Archon form is the ultimate nuke damage skill from what I can see. My favorite class the barbarian has Wrath of the berserker that can be runed to double your damage. I don't know how damage buffs work, but archon has 2 attacks as far as I know that do 1000% weapon damage and the improved archon rune boosts archon damage by 25% which might bring those attacks up to 1250% damage.
I don't see a lack of damage whatsoever with the class.
Add on top of that having probably the strongest overall combination of soft cc, manueverability and utility in one class and I fail to see what the problem is.
Now THAT is a glass cannon, hell they even practically just come out and say it in the video.
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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
Are you one of the employees of BLZ ? How did you get this data: "It takes an equally geared wizard 25% longer to kill the Skeleton king than any other class in patch 15!"
I've seen this exact thread about every class in the game.
And when it's based on almost no skills, no runes, having less than 6 abilities slotted, no gear, and only 1/4 of the way through act 1 on normal mode- it just comes off as completely fucking retarded.
I've seen this exact thread about every class in the game.
And when it's based on almost no skills, no runes, having less than 6 abilities slotted, no gear, and only 1/4 of the way through act 1 on normal mode- it just comes off as completely fucking retarded.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Yet, that troll failed to produce said threads.
I just thought of another amazing DH ability that recently got changed.
.
Spike Trap is now a hatred spender, and it got a huge dmg increase. There are a lot of good rune choices with that ability, and they almost all outclass any wizard AoE. Ohh and before you say, zomg there is a delay, guess what meteor has a delay too.
Are you one of the employees of BLZ ? How did you get this data: "It takes an equally geared wizard 25% longer to kill the Skeleton king than any other class in patch 15!"
There are plenty of videos of play-throughs floating around.
I'd agree that in patch 15 the wizard seems to have some lacking single point damage when compared to other classes. I'd also be willing to admit that based on the numbers we see now (for higher level skills) that the wizard looks a little lack-luster further down the road. All that being said, It's probable that the internal build that blizzard uses has already addressed this concern (if even necessary - I'll explain what I mean in a minute). What we see "on paper" is usually easier to "feel out" in actual testing - and blizzard has a whole crew of people working on just that...
All the numbers aside, there's a lot of things to consider other than just raw dps.. mobility, survivability, benefits of ranged vs. melee during encounters, resource spending and regeneration, the ability to lay down multiple skills at once....
Meteor for instance is something you can cast in conjunction with another skill since it has a delay (delays aren't always a bad thing) and a dot.. add the damage from meteor to any of the signature spells and suddenly it's not so terrible...
I'm not saying there's no tuning that needs to happen, I'm just saying there's a lot of factors that are harder to quantify - especially when you can really only test a very limited portion of the game...
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I did not ignore this, I specifically made a paragraph about this.
50 Hatred for cluster arrow
60 Arcane power for Meteor
Depending on skills and gear you could potentially match the wizards resource regeneration.
4 hatred /sec + Bat companion = +3 Hatred per second.
No. If a DH get ressource generation from his gear and skills, the wizard can get it too.
Now consider generators. The Wizard has to use a rune to get resources, and its a laughable amount often times like +1 or +2. The DH gets from 3-8 depending on which spell/rune.
The wizard does not work the same way as the demon hunter. The wizard resource generation mechanic does not work with abilities. The AP just regenerate itself really fast. You (normally) don't use a signature spell to gain arcane power, you use it because you need something to do while your arcane power regenerate. The demon hunter, on the other hand, is FORCED to use his hatred generators. Technically a wizard with good AP regen gear could rune some abilities to cost less AP, and do not use signature spells at all.
I did not ignore this, I specifically made a paragraph about this.
50 Hatred for cluster arrow
60 Arcane power for Meteor
Depending on skills and gear you could potentially match the wizards resource regeneration.
4 hatred /sec + Bat companion = +3 Hatred per second.
No. If a DH get ressource generation from his gear and skills, the wizard can get it too.
Now consider generators. The Wizard has to use a rune to get resources, and its a laughable amount often times like +1 or +2. The DH gets from 3-8 depending on which spell/rune.
The wizard does not work the same way as the demon hunter. The wizard resource generation mechanic does not work with abilities. The AP just regenerate itself really fast. You (normally) don't use a signature spell to gain arcane power, you use it because you need something to do while your arcane power regenerate. The demon hunter, on the other hand, is FORCED to use his hatred generators. Technically a wizard with good AP regen gear could rune some abilities to cost less AP, and do not use signature spells at all.
A DH can match a wizards base regen with some gear. Yes, the wizard could take the lead again with +AP on Crit gear though.
A DH can easily make a build without a generator....its much harder to pull that off, signatureless, for a wizard. That alone, kind of tells you who gets to use their spenders more frequently....
However, I favor a build with a generator, because they are actually quite good on a DH.
Puncturing Arrow is obviously better than any Wizard skill in single target.
But look at Bola Shot (imminent Doom) = 182% on initial target with 154% in 7 yard area. That is damn near comparable to say Arcane orb at 175% in 10 yard area.
So yah, the DH has single target and AoE generators on par with the wizards spenders, and you guys still think you are the glass cannon? No, not even close.
I guess you could argue that she does specialize in AoE, but only in the same way you can say a bad mechanic specializes in automobile repair. Its all they do, but it doesn't necessarily mean they are very good at it.
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Do you want to get scammed? Perhaps a nice keylogger?
"Just google "diablo 3 gold guide" and magical rainbow covered demons will assault your eyes."
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You are doing less than 200% wpn dmg + passives. Look at the DH #s, by comparison, they are over 400%, with a generator at 230%. This isn't even a competition.
Hungering Arrow Shatter or one of the other choices is pumping out 230% dmg, which is still likely higher than the wizard even if you assume the passives aren't as good. Though the condition was this was a single target fight so it won't be hard to keep that mob slowed, or stay 10 yards away. Wizard passives have weaknesses as well, black ice only works on cold dmg for instance, so it wont be helping magic missile which you use half or more of the time.
"Just google "diablo 3 gold guide" and magical rainbow covered demons will assault your eyes."
As far as the Wizards dmg goes, it looks like this.
The equation for calculating the # of casts possible,
c =(t+(m-a)/(a/t-r))/t
Simplified,
c =(m-r*t)/(a-r*t)
a = arcane power cost
m = maximum arcane power
r = regen rate of arcane power
t = cast time
c = # of casts
c =(100-10*2/3)/(20-10*2/3) = 7 casts
Given a 1.5 APS wand 7 casts is 7/1.5= 4.666 seconds
Assuming you start at 100 AP, then your Average % wpn Dmg
[1/3*(215+0*(1/3)/1.5*65)+1/3*(215+1*(1/3)/1.5*65)+1/3*(215+2*(1/3)/1.5*65)+1/3*(215+3*(1/3)/1.5*65)+1/3*(215+4*(1/3)/1.5*65)+4.5*280]/7 = 238% wpn dmg
It will then take 10 seconds spamming Magic Missile to regain 100 AP.
10 casts / 1.5 APS = 6.666 seconds
Average %wpn dmg per cast
(10/17 * 143 + 7/17 * 238) = 182% wpn dmg
182% wpn dmg sustained is absolutely pathetic!
Edit: Of course I did not take +crit on AP or +AP into account.
Puncturing arrow alone is 230% wpn dmg, which is over 26% better than that, so you can argue the DHs dmg buff are more situational, but it won't make up that much. And this is just generator spam!
The DH is the true Glass cannon now.
She has no armor buffs.
She has no addition resistance buffs or any other type of dmg reduction buffs.
She doesn't have a lot of dependable stuns or freezes.
She only thing she really has is kiting, and snares, but does a truckload of dmg.
While the wizard on the other hand has all that. She has become more of a CC caster, than a nuker.
Which is why I will likely go with DH as my first character, and I suggest anyone else who wants a true glass cannon experience to do the same.
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
I really wish for the wizard to be a glass cannon too though
This.
- Clay Shelton
Fixed that for ya.
Dismissing new ideas is a sign of complete and utter ignorance.
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
Based on what, calculations? You know that disparities from calculations happen in actual practice even in a stand-and-fire game like WoW right?
It just took a glance to realize that the OP has gone on this assumption with only looking at resource cost vs damage comparison while completely ignoring the differences between each resource. Yes, I am aware he mentioned AP regen 'from runed signature spells' the fact that he only mentioned this alone shows that he doesn't have a grasp of how resource is managed up to lv 13 which can be understood just by watching beta vids.
Sure outliers are possible, we can merely only calculate the average, but why would you only be interested in outliers?
Maybe, you should actually read some more of the thread, and not the lol "this" comments.
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
Here's a build that shows some of the highest damage skills the wizard class has. It's not an actual build, but just the highest damaging skills imo.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#aekTim!YUT!bZbbbc
The wizard does not lack in damage. Arcane torrent with death blossom deals 670% damage, but you can't control what get's damaged. So what, it's spammable huge damage.
Meteor with the meteor shower rune does potentially over 500% damage.
Storm armor with strike back does 91% weapon damage to any enemy that attacks you from range or melee. That's a constant free damage source.
Disintegrate with volatility has a 35% chance when killing a mob to cause them to explode for 395% damage in an 8yd radius.
Archon form is the ultimate nuke damage skill from what I can see. My favorite class the barbarian has Wrath of the berserker that can be runed to double your damage. I don't know how damage buffs work, but archon has 2 attacks as far as I know that do 1000% weapon damage and the improved archon rune boosts archon damage by 25% which might bring those attacks up to 1250% damage.
I don't see a lack of damage whatsoever with the class.
Add on top of that having probably the strongest overall combination of soft cc, manueverability and utility in one class and I fail to see what the problem is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ApgJ-dzzZXc
Now THAT is a glass cannon, hell they even practically just come out and say it in the video.
Epicurus
"It takes an equally geared wizard 25% longer to kill the Skeleton king than any other class in patch 15!"
Couldn't have said it better myself.
I just thought of another amazing DH ability that recently got changed.
.
Spike Trap is now a hatred spender, and it got a huge dmg increase. There are a lot of good rune choices with that ability, and they almost all outclass any wizard AoE. Ohh and before you say, zomg there is a delay, guess what meteor has a delay too.
There are plenty of videos of play-throughs floating around.
Level ~8 DH Patch 15
Puncturing Arrow = 230% wpn dmg
Rapid Fire = 228% wpn dmg
Level ~8 Wizard Patch 15
Magic Missile Charged blast = 143% dmg
Arcane Orb = 175% dmg or RoF = 215% dmg
The outcome seems pretty obvious don't ya think?
"Just google "diablo 3 gold guide" and magical rainbow covered demons will assault your eyes."
All the numbers aside, there's a lot of things to consider other than just raw dps.. mobility, survivability, benefits of ranged vs. melee during encounters, resource spending and regeneration, the ability to lay down multiple skills at once....
Meteor for instance is something you can cast in conjunction with another skill since it has a delay (delays aren't always a bad thing) and a dot.. add the damage from meteor to any of the signature spells and suddenly it's not so terrible...
I'm not saying there's no tuning that needs to happen, I'm just saying there's a lot of factors that are harder to quantify - especially when you can really only test a very limited portion of the game...
16GB G Skill Ram ~ 2x Mushkin 120GB SSD's ~ MSI GTX 570 Twin Frozer ~ Asus P8P67 Deluxe
"Just google "diablo 3 gold guide" and magical rainbow covered demons will assault your eyes."
No. If a DH get ressource generation from his gear and skills, the wizard can get it too.
The wizard does not work the same way as the demon hunter. The wizard resource generation mechanic does not work with abilities. The AP just regenerate itself really fast. You (normally) don't use a signature spell to gain arcane power, you use it because you need something to do while your arcane power regenerate. The demon hunter, on the other hand, is FORCED to use his hatred generators. Technically a wizard with good AP regen gear could rune some abilities to cost less AP, and do not use signature spells at all.
A DH can easily make a build without a generator....its much harder to pull that off, signatureless, for a wizard. That alone, kind of tells you who gets to use their spenders more frequently....
However, I favor a build with a generator, because they are actually quite good on a DH.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Just google "diablo 3 gold guide" and magical rainbow covered demons will assault your eyes."
http://d3db.com/tool...or/demon-hunter
Puncturing Arrow is obviously better than any Wizard skill in single target.
But look at Bola Shot (imminent Doom) = 182% on initial target with 154% in 7 yard area. That is damn near comparable to say Arcane orb at 175% in 10 yard area.
So yah, the DH has single target and AoE generators on par with the wizards spenders, and you guys still think you are the glass cannon? No, not even close.
I guess you could argue that she does specialize in AoE, but only in the same way you can say a bad mechanic specializes in automobile repair. Its all they do, but it doesn't necessarily mean they are very good at it.
"Just google "diablo 3 gold guide" and magical rainbow covered demons will assault your eyes."