Note: this OP has a TL/DL but I'd recommend reading it, if you want to join the discussion.
Now that we have the more-or-less finalised skills, I took some time reading the passive skills of every class. I found, that the DH passives are inferrior compared to other's, and I I'd like to start a "serious" discussion topic on this matter. Since I've been planning on playing DH ever since it's introduction I might be subjective, that's why I'm interested in your opinions. I put the current passive lists and doomscream's old list of active and passive list to spoiler tag in case you're not familiar with them.
So my main problem is, that (as I see it) the DH passives seem like a cheap copy of an another passive or just lack te potential to be useful in many builds. Also, useful passives disappeared from the list. Lame copies:
Fundamentals: Increases the damage of your basic attacks by 100%. Your basic attacks restore 15 Hatred. -- Otherwise, I'd say ok, for an autoatacker build but:
Wizzard: Virtuoso: Increases the damage of your basic wand attack by 100%. Successful attacks with a wand generate 15 Arcane Power and heal you for 1% of your maximum Life. --- why dont they give something like this? ok, so Wizzard is a caster, but I dont think thats the reason to make it inferior. Create another passive then, anything but this.
Hot Pursuit: Whenever you are at full Hatred, movement speed is increased by 10%. -- Ok, somwheat useful in certain builds but...
Monk: Fleet Footed Increase base movement speed by 10%. -- WHAT? They give the same thing, but Dh only gets it when hatred is full?
Vengeance : Gain 10 Hatred and 1 Discipline whenever you are healed by a health globe. --- Now not 1 but 2 skills, that seem better. I don't think I need to comment:
Wizzard: Power Hungry: Gain 30 Arcane Power whenever you are healed by a health globe.
WD: Circle of Life: Gain 10% of your maximum Mana whenever you are healed by a health globe.
Overall lack of resource management: We now have Fundamentals
Grenadier : Reduces the Hatred cost of your Grenades and Cluster Arrow abilities by 15. Upon death, you drop a giant grenade that explodes for 213 - 320 fire damage (who wants to die? especially with a HC char...)
and Perfectionist : 20%less Discipline usage - so-so passive
Barb:
Animosity: Increases Fury generation by 10% and maximum Fury is increased by 20.
Relentless: While below 20% Life, all skills cost no Fury and all damage taken is reduced by 50%.
Unforgiving: You no longer degenerate Fury. Instead, you gain 1 Fury every 2 seconds.
Wizzard: Power Hungry and Virtuoso as stated before and:
Prodigy: Every time you cast a Signature spell, you gain 5 Arcane Power.
Astral Presence: Increases your maximum Arcane Power by 20 and Arcane Power regeneration by 2 per second.
Monk: Maybe they have less amount of resource management, but they make up for it with a whol list of tanking oriented passives
Chant of Resonance :Duration of all Mantras increased by 120 seconds. While one of your Mantras is active you gain 1 Spirit every second.
Exalted Soul: Increases maximum Spirit by 100.
WD: Corcle of life and:
Spiritual Attunement: Maximum Mana is increased by 20%. Regenerate 2% of your maximum Mana per second.
Blood Ritual: 50% of Mana costs are paid with Life. In addition, you regenerate 2% of your maximum Life per second. (Check DH's Brooding...)
Rush of Essence: Spirit spells return 200% of their Mana cost over 10 seconds.
Vision Quest: Anytime you have 4 or more skills on cooldown your mana regeneration is increased by 300%.
In the past we had at least:
Resourfulness: When Discipline is under 20% regeneration of Hatred increased by 30%
Archery: Reduce cost of Discipline skills by 50%.
Life management and defence:
Obviously Monk and Barb are superior, I dont have a problem with this, but I think the WD and the Wizzard beats the DH in this field as well (at least with passives) Damage increase:
This part is OK, but most of these are circumstantial and not better than any other class, that already beats DH in something else.
TL/DR: I just cant see what they wanted us to do with these. Monk has his tanking passives, WD has mana management and damage increase, Wizzard has AP management and survivalability, and Barb has Damage increase, Fury management and a bit tankishness. The DH's passives show no clear aim like this. They are too circumstantial and limited, that I just cant get the feeling of excitement when I have to choose one, instead it seem like a choice, where no matter what I choose, I will not benefit much by even selecting a passive at all.
A lot of the skills have changed, and I'm sure they'll change again. Lil too early to really say one way or another what will happen. A lot of your comparisons are across classes that don't have the same roles RE Monk/DH 10% movement speed: of course a melee is going to have some sort of better movement access than a ranged.
The DH is going to be amazing at ranged kiting with their defensive Discipline moves. I wouldn't worry too much that all passives/runes aren't exactly the same, because the DH has things other classes don't.
Yeah I'll be honest... It just kind of seems like Blizzard doesn't know what to do with the DH. I mean, what's with the "companion" skill. I quote "Your raven companion will periodically peck at enemies for 21-28 damage."
There will be pecking.
I was gonna go DH for my second toon but.. man. I honestly can't get excited about this class after looking at the skills, both active and passive.
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"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions."
-Thomas Jefferson
Damn Nelwins. On topic, the Hot Pursuit passive is very weak and downright crappy. Why do I want to be full Hatred to get 10% movement speed increase? Now if they made it to be a speed increase when facing an enemy (you know, pursuing) then it wouldn't be so lackluster.
I think you're misunderstanding the Sharpshooter ability. To me it seems like it will stack 3% crit every second until your attack makes a critical hit. So as soon as you've made that critical hit, the counter will start over again. Say you don't crit for the next 10 seconds, well, then you'll have 30% chance to crit on your next attack. Or if you stand around doing nothing for 30 seconds you will have 100% (99%) to crit on the first attack you make.
Seems pretty useful to me, especially if it applies to skills.
If that's not how the passive works, I'd be very surprised.
I agree. Straight copy of Ashe's passive BTW (from LoL).
I would like a passive that keys off of stuns. Possibly a "gain x hatred, y discipline when you attack a stunned target" since we have a lots of runeable stuns.
I would also like some kind of buff on an ability of ours. like maybe some rune on hungering arrow gives "all your attacks an x% chance to pierce for y seconds" or something.
i feel like right now we have bland or over-conditional passives.
I don't know what i'd suggest to spice them up (aside from the stun one above).
and Perfectionist : 20%less Discipline usage - so-so passive
I think you're underestimating this passive. Imagine you're using a 10-discipline skill before and after Perfectionist.
Without Perfectionist:
40 Discipline = 4 skill uses
With Perfectionist:
40 Discipline = 5 skill uses
Perfectionist makes any and all discipline that comes your way go 5/4 = 25% farther. In other words, it's the same as +25% Max Discipline and +25% Discipline restoration from all sources. A very significant bonus imo.
You also imply that the DH is inferior to the others based on very small numbers.
Example:
Wizard, Virtuoso: Increases the damage of your basic wand attack by 100%. Successful attacks with a wand generate 15 Arcane Power and heal you for 1% of your maximum Life.
Compared to the DH passive, the only thing that is different is the 1% heal. 1%. That's 20 life if you have 2000. I'd say a heal like that later in the game is useless. Comparatively speaking, one of the barbarians shouts heal over 200 life per second with a Rank 7 rune in it.
Take the Wizards signature spells for example too. I have no doubt they will be a trade-off. Low damage to compensate the fact that they regenerate Arcane Power. I doubt they will be nearly as powerful as Meteor, Blizzard or any of the other resource-spending abilities.
TL;DR: Ultimately it all boils down to the fact that they are all different archetypes - each with different strengths and weaknesses.
Why do we have to be inferior even in small numbers? Wizzard and WD aren't ranged classes as well? Why do they have better resource management AND life regen AND protection?
DH only has Brooding, which only heals you, when out of combat for 5 sec.
Wizzard has Melee damage reduction and he can make his armor spells heal himself.
WD has his blood magic and Death trance (20% dmage reduction when below 50% HP)
Before you say, that we have Vault - WD has pets for tanking, hex and fear, while wizzard has Teleport and Slow time
You may say that DH was designed as ranged physical attacker. Then why dont we have awsome stuff for that?
Thrill of the hunt for example (every 10 second you immobilise with normal attack) is the worst passive of all. When will you ever pick this, when you have like 3-4 skills, that can stun with runes, others, that can slow.
Generatiers second part is bullshit as well. I dont plan on dieing, why do I have a passive for that? Other classes have anty dieing stuff: Near Death Experience; Relentless; Unstable Anomaly and Death trance.
Other than Brooding, Steady Aim, Archery and Sharpshooter, there aren't any skills, that you can just put into any builds you like. Other classes have more all-around skills IMHO
I would like a passive that keys off of stuns. Possibly a "gain x hatred, y discipline when you attack a stunned target" since we have a lots of runeable stuns.
i feel like right now we have bland or over-conditional passives.
Yeah something like this. Unless Stunned counts as slowed, because then cull of the weak is useful.
and Perfectionist : 20%less Discipline usage - so-so passive
I think you're underestimating this passive. Imagine you're using a 10-discipline skill before and after Perfectionist.
Without Perfectionist:
40 Discipline = 4 skill uses
With Perfectionist:
40 Discipline = 5 skill uses
Perfectionist makes any and all discipline that comes your way go 5/4 = 25% farther. In other words, it's the same as +25% Max Discipline and +25% Discipline restoration from all sources. A very significant bonus imo.
Ok, lets have a math class kids. 20% of 40 is 8, not 10. 25% of 40 is10 which is the numbers in bold. If you had 50 Discipline 20% would in fact give you 10 Discipline. And that can feel like +20% Max Discipline and nothing else. Just because you can cast +1 spel wont raise your Disciple regen at all, thats a different thing. End of story.
Overall: I'm glad that I'm not the only one, who feels, that these passive are not as good as they should be.
Correct. And with that 8 Discipline saved due to Perfectionist, you can use the skill one more time, which amounts to 25% more skill usage overall. Nowhere did I say that 20% of 40 is 10.
25% of 40 is10 which is the numbers in bold. If you had 50 Discipline 20% would in fact give you 10 Discipline. And that can feel like +20% Max Discipline and nothing else.
Who is getting 20% more Discipline? The skill says it reduces Discipline COST by 20%, not increases Discipline by 20%.
I say that -20% Discipline Cost is equivalent to +25% Max Discipline and +25% Discipline restoration.
If what I'm saying is true, then 40 Discipline with Perfection should be able to accomplish what 25% more Discipline would accomplish without Perfection. So 25% of 40 is 10, for a total of 50. That means that if I'm right, 40 Discipline with Perfection should get us the same result as 50 without.
So let's say we have a skill that costs 10 discipline without Perfection. It'll cost 10 * 80% = 8 with Perfection.
Because we get the same number of skill uses with +25% Discipline as with Perfection, I say that having Perfection is equivalent to having 25% more Discipline from all sources.
Just because you can cast +1 spel wont raise your Disciple regen at all, thats a different thing. End of story.
Why not? If Perfectionist allows you to cast 25% more skills in every case, then isn't that the same as having +25% Max Discipline and Discipline restoration? I'm not saying that it literally increases your Discipline regen, but I am saying it's equivalent.
Its a 3 sec immobilisation.
Runeless Caltrops 65% slow in aoe. Runeless Entagling shot is 2 sec, 70% slow for 2 enemy. Runeless Fan of Knives 65% slow for 4 second. Alabaster runed Vault has 4,5sec stun. Alabaster runed generates have 70% chance to stun for 2,5 sec. Indigo runed Impale stuns a single target for 3,5 sec. Alabaster runed Elemental arrow stuns for 3,5 sec when critical procs. Alabaster runed Cluster arrow stuns for 2,5 sec with 35% chance. Alabaster runed rapid shot: 40% shot for 5 sec. Golden runed Rain of Vengence stuns for 2secs.
I dont think I really need that mere 3 sec immobile enemy..
I can accept, that they want DH as an Autoatacking Archetype, but I then choose another class, because it's fucking diablo, and I want to spam my 6 skills, not shooting bland autoatacks.
As a side note: even I created 2 spell spamming builds(posted in another topic, I pu it here as well), but the passive part of these build are so restricted, that I cant really put anything else there, and that my problem. http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#TdiQjk!YWg!bbccYZ http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#cadfWj!Wcf!ZZbZab
Correct. And with that 8 Discipline saved due to Perfectionist, you can use the skill one more time, which amounts to 25% more skill usage overall. Nowhere did I say that 20% of 40 is 10.
25% of 40 is10 which is the numbers in bold. If you had 50 Discipline 20% would in fact give you 10 Discipline. And that can feel like +20% Max Discipline and nothing else.
Who is getting 20% more Discipline? The skill says it reduces Discipline COST by 20%, not increases Discipline by 20%.
I say that -20% Discipline Cost is equivalent to +25% Max Discipline and +25% Discipline restoration.
If what I'm saying is true, then 40 Discipline with Perfection should be able to accomplish what 25% more Discipline would accomplish without Perfection. So 25% of 40 is 10, for a total of 50. That means that if I'm right, 40 Discipline with Perfection should get us the same result as 50 without.
So let's say we have a skill that costs 10 discipline without Perfection. It'll cost 10 * 80% = 8 with Perfection.
Because we get the same number of skill uses in either case, I say that having Perfection is like having 25% more Discipline from all sources.
Just because you can cast +1 spel wont raise your Disciple regen at all, thats a different thing. End of story.
Why not? If Perfectionist allows you to cast 25% more skills in every case, then isn't that the same as having +25% Max Discipline and Discipline restoration? I'm not saying that it literally increases your Discipline regen, but I am saying it's equivalent.
Sigh..My bad, miscalculated this shit.I'm still half asleep I think. I apologise. Though you wrote, that: it's the same as +25% Max Discipline and +25% Discipline restoration from all sources. A very significant bonus imo. And I wrote, that you can only use +20% Discipline, but since my thought proccess failed, it doesn't matter.
Still, its not like +25% regen increase.and +25% max dicipline. One or another at best.
Sigh..My bad, miscalculated this shit.I'm still half asleep I think. I apologise.
Apology accepted =)
Though you wrote, that: it's the same as +25% Max Discipline and +25% Discipline restoration from all sources. A very significant bonus imo. And I wrote, that you can only use +20% Discipline, but since my thought proccess failed, it doesn't matter.
Still, its not like +25% regen increase.and +25% max dicipline. One or another at best.
No, it certainly is both. It makes all Discipline you have 25% more effective. All discipline that you have could be described as your max Discipline at the start plus any discipline you restore. That's why I say it's +25% Max Discipline (The discipline you start with) and +25% Discipline restoration (Any discipline you restore). Together they cover any and all Discipline from all sources.
Quote from name="Ferrarista" timestamp="1315984976" post="658482" »
Sigh..My bad, miscalculated this shit.I'm still half asleep I think. I apologise.
Apology accepted =)
Though you wrote, that: it's the same as +25% Max Discipline and +25% Discipline restoration from all sources. A very significant bonus imo. And I wrote, that you can only use +20% Discipline, but since my thought proccess failed, it doesn't matter.
Still, its not like +25% regen increase.and +25% max dicipline. One or another at best.
No, it certainly is both. It makes all Discipline you have 25% more effective. All discipline that you have could be described as your max Discipline at the start plus any discipline you restore. That's why I say it's +25% Max Discipline (The discipline you start with) and +25% Discipline restoration (Any discipline you restore). Together they cover any and all Discipline from all sources.
So what you want to say, that each point that gets regenerated worth more? I acccept that, but I wouldn't really call that regen increase, but it's matter of wievpoint.
Back to my point: it's only useful for half of your pool, and the half you use less than the other.
The thing is, I think you can spam two skills (left and right mouse button) and have the other four as extras. In Diablo 1 and 2 you didn't even rely on a handful of skills. Barbs had leap attack, whirlwind, concentrate and berserk which you regularly swapped between (excluding shouts). Sorc had her set builds with frozen orb, blizzard, meteor and so on. Paladins had blessed hammer, auras, etc.
Ultimately, Diablo 3 will provide a lot more action packed gameplay since you can alternate between the skills much more easily by having them bound to six different slots whereas in D2 you only had two slots to put your skills in, effectively limiting you to using two skills at a time (even if you could have all of your skills key-bound). The D3 system allows you to use six different skills at a time.
And as you can see for youself, you've created two completely unique builds utilizing different mechanics. One focusing on all out DPS from a range while the other focuses on more intimate fighting. For the second build, Sharpshooter would work really well too instead of Archery since you aren't relying too much on bow or crossbow damage on the skills and the critical effects gained by Sharpshooter should greatly outweigh the bonuses on Archery since it applies to all skills.
Exactly because I can use many skills, and rune one for stun or slow I dont feel like I need an immobilisation on normal attack. Hell, I dont even fell like autoatacking, since I have 6 shiny skills.
I think archery increases everything, not just bow/crossbow damage, so I think its useful, but yeah, but I know what you meant. But that was one skill, and maybe Steady Aim and end of story. I don't really have any other skill, that can help with theese builds. When I made some a barb and a WD build, I could barely choose and had more alternatives.
It's interesting that you see the demon hunter as "underpowered". When I first saw it, I thought it was cool looking, but decided on playing a wizard. Now, after the skills and glyphs have been released, I am leaning much more toward the demon hunter for my character.
Now, let me start off with saying that I play hardcore, so my opinion may be tainted.
I will agree that if you're only looking at the skills, you are correct, the demon hunter will be underpowered. However, the DH has amazing synergy and an awesome toolkit for survival and offense. Fundamentalist on it's own makes me interested in exploring the playstyle. 100% increase to basic attack damage is great. It's even nice on the wizard. But the wizard is not an auto attack hero, thus the 100% increase should be dramatically higher for the DH.
Balistics is another one that really shines. Any build that uses rockets needs to have this passive. It takes a runed rapid fire from doing 480% weapon damage per second to 780% per second. That is vastly higher damage output than anything I've seen for the wizard.
Hot Pursuit is getting criticized quite a bit because it requires you to be at full hatred. While this is not one of the more potent passives, it does work well with a DH that is focused on fighting bigger mobs and bosses. It allows the DH to use it's discipline to keep large units at bay while it puts some extra distance between them and death. This is especialy useful for a rapid fire / shadow power build. Any time you spend moving (meaning you didn't put enough distance between you and your target) is a huge amount of damage lost.
Even at that, without the ability to spam teleport (go enigma!) you will be doing quite a lot of walking around sanctuary. Hell you even did a lot of that in diablo 2. This will help to aleviate the downtime some and, over a long period of gameplay, can really add up to a lot of time saved. 6 Seconds saved for every minute of running. Not bad.
My main point is that you need to remember that the skills are not the entire class. Yes, you will be spamming abilities like crazy, same as the wizard. However, at some point you will go OOM. Blizzard has designed the game to make sure that you do. What is the wizard going to do when it's OOM? It's going to run. What's the DH going to do when it's OOM? It's going to blow away some demons with it's crossbow.
Yup, I came to the same conclusion oner the day. Blizzard never let me down this far, I'm sure they wont let me down now either. Also even it's actually underpowered as of now, its not complete yet (http://www.diablofans.com/news/895-skills-and-guns/) so I'm crossing my fingers, and hope the best.
Could somebody with a character in Blizzard's official forum post the content of this thread?
I am fully understood each class pros and cons, still we Hunter needs SOME more better passives or even actives to represent ourselves right.
I really do feel that it's underpowered.
And the OP post, with his numbers of example, did missed quite a few passives and other active as well
Here's an example without the rune effects basis.
Barb Passive
Juggernaut - Reduced movement impairing effect by 20% , additionally if feared,stunned,charmed gain 15% life.
DH Passive
Comparing to Juggernaut? - None
Barb Active
War Cry - Gain frenzy and armor
DH Active
Shadow Power - Lose Discipline and gain aspd
And did you guys see that Barb's Sprint with Crimson? It by far exceeds any of our defensive move.
To Sum up
What I'm trying to point out is, When Barb gets all the gain and gain at a disposal of skill.
DH are forced to lose something to be able to gain something, if not, the gaining is just too minor (of a duration and effects) to be really worthwhile.
If u guys see what I mean
Please get this thread content to Blizz official forum, so they might noticed and give it a little more thought, cuz from my point of view, this class is still far unbalanced.
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Now that we have the more-or-less finalised skills, I took some time reading the passive skills of every class. I found, that the DH passives are inferrior compared to other's, and I I'd like to start a "serious" discussion topic on this matter. Since I've been planning on playing DH ever since it's introduction I might be subjective, that's why I'm interested in your opinions. I put the current passive lists and doomscream's old list of active and passive list to spoiler tag in case you're not familiar with them.
http://us.battle.net...s/monk/passive/
http://us.battle.net...barian/passive/
http://us.battle.net...wizard/passive/
http://us.battle.net...doctor/passive/
http://www.diablofan...passive-skills/
So my main problem is, that (as I see it) the DH passives seem like a cheap copy of an another passive or just lack te potential to be useful in many builds. Also, useful passives disappeared from the list.
Lame copies:
Fundamentals: Increases the damage of your basic attacks by 100%. Your basic attacks restore 15 Hatred. -- Otherwise, I'd say ok, for an autoatacker build but:
Wizzard: Virtuoso: Increases the damage of your basic wand attack by 100%. Successful attacks with a wand generate 15 Arcane Power and heal you for 1% of your maximum Life. --- why dont they give something like this? ok, so Wizzard is a caster, but I dont think thats the reason to make it inferior. Create another passive then, anything but this.
Hot Pursuit: Whenever you are at full Hatred, movement speed is increased by 10%. -- Ok, somwheat useful in certain builds but...
Monk: Fleet Footed Increase base movement speed by 10%. -- WHAT? They give the same thing, but Dh only gets it when hatred is full?
Vengeance : Gain 10 Hatred and 1 Discipline whenever you are healed by a health globe. --- Now not 1 but 2 skills, that seem better. I don't think I need to comment:
Wizzard: Power Hungry: Gain 30 Arcane Power whenever you are healed by a health globe.
WD: Circle of Life: Gain 10% of your maximum Mana whenever you are healed by a health globe.
Overall lack of resource management:
We now have Fundamentals
Grenadier : Reduces the Hatred cost of your Grenades and Cluster Arrow abilities by 15. Upon death, you drop a giant grenade that explodes for 213 - 320 fire damage (who wants to die? especially with a HC char...)
and Perfectionist : 20%less Discipline usage - so-so passive
Barb:
Animosity: Increases Fury generation by 10% and maximum Fury is increased by 20.
Relentless: While below 20% Life, all skills cost no Fury and all damage taken is reduced by 50%.
Unforgiving: You no longer degenerate Fury. Instead, you gain 1 Fury every 2 seconds.
Wizzard: Power Hungry and Virtuoso as stated before and:
Prodigy: Every time you cast a Signature spell, you gain 5 Arcane Power.
Astral Presence: Increases your maximum Arcane Power by 20 and Arcane Power regeneration by 2 per second.
Monk: Maybe they have less amount of resource management, but they make up for it with a whol list of tanking oriented passives
Chant of Resonance :Duration of all Mantras increased by 120 seconds. While one of your Mantras is active you gain 1 Spirit every second.
Exalted Soul: Increases maximum Spirit by 100.
WD: Corcle of life and:
Spiritual Attunement: Maximum Mana is increased by 20%. Regenerate 2% of your maximum Mana per second.
Blood Ritual: 50% of Mana costs are paid with Life. In addition, you regenerate 2% of your maximum Life per second. (Check DH's Brooding...)
Rush of Essence: Spirit spells return 200% of their Mana cost over 10 seconds.
Vision Quest: Anytime you have 4 or more skills on cooldown your mana regeneration is increased by 300%.
In the past we had at least:
Resourfulness: When Discipline is under 20% regeneration of Hatred increased by 30%
Archery: Reduce cost of Discipline skills by 50%.
Life management and defence:
Obviously Monk and Barb are superior, I dont have a problem with this, but I think the WD and the Wizzard beats the DH in this field as well (at least with passives)
Damage increase:
This part is OK, but most of these are circumstantial and not better than any other class, that already beats DH in something else.
TL/DR: I just cant see what they wanted us to do with these. Monk has his tanking passives, WD has mana management and damage increase, Wizzard has AP management and survivalability, and Barb has Damage increase, Fury management and a bit tankishness. The DH's passives show no clear aim like this. They are too circumstantial and limited, that I just cant get the feeling of excitement when I have to choose one, instead it seem like a choice, where no matter what I choose, I will not benefit much by even selecting a passive at all.
The DH is going to be amazing at ranged kiting with their defensive Discipline moves. I wouldn't worry too much that all passives/runes aren't exactly the same, because the DH has things other classes don't.
There will be pecking.
I was gonna go DH for my second toon but.. man. I honestly can't get excited about this class after looking at the skills, both active and passive.
-Thomas Jefferson
Damn Nelwins. On topic, the Hot Pursuit passive is very weak and downright crappy. Why do I want to be full Hatred to get 10% movement speed increase? Now if they made it to be a speed increase when facing an enemy (you know, pursuing) then it wouldn't be so lackluster.
I agree. Straight copy of Ashe's passive BTW (from LoL).
I would also like some kind of buff on an ability of ours. like maybe some rune on hungering arrow gives "all your attacks an x% chance to pierce for y seconds" or something.
i feel like right now we have bland or over-conditional passives.
I don't know what i'd suggest to spice them up (aside from the stun one above).
Without Perfectionist:
40 Discipline = 4 skill uses
With Perfectionist:
40 Discipline = 5 skill uses
Perfectionist makes any and all discipline that comes your way go 5/4 = 25% farther. In other words, it's the same as +25% Max Discipline and +25% Discipline restoration from all sources. A very significant bonus imo.
DH only has Brooding, which only heals you, when out of combat for 5 sec.
Wizzard has Melee damage reduction and he can make his armor spells heal himself.
WD has his blood magic and Death trance (20% dmage reduction when below 50% HP)
Before you say, that we have Vault - WD has pets for tanking, hex and fear, while wizzard has Teleport and Slow time
You may say that DH was designed as ranged physical attacker. Then why dont we have awsome stuff for that?
Thrill of the hunt for example (every 10 second you immobilise with normal attack) is the worst passive of all. When will you ever pick this, when you have like 3-4 skills, that can stun with runes, others, that can slow.
Generatiers second part is bullshit as well. I dont plan on dieing, why do I have a passive for that? Other classes have anty dieing stuff: Near Death Experience; Relentless; Unstable Anomaly and Death trance.
Other than Brooding, Steady Aim, Archery and Sharpshooter, there aren't any skills, that you can just put into any builds you like. Other classes have more all-around skills IMHO
Yeah something like this. Unless Stunned counts as slowed, because then cull of the weak is useful.
Ok, lets have a math class kids. 20% of 40 is 8, not 10. 25% of 40 is10 which is the numbers in bold. If you had 50 Discipline 20% would in fact give you 10 Discipline. And that can feel like +20% Max Discipline and nothing else. Just because you can cast +1 spel wont raise your Disciple regen at all, thats a different thing. End of story.
Overall: I'm glad that I'm not the only one, who feels, that these passive are not as good as they should be.
Correct. And with that 8 Discipline saved due to Perfectionist, you can use the skill one more time, which amounts to 25% more skill usage overall. Nowhere did I say that 20% of 40 is 10.
Who is getting 20% more Discipline? The skill says it reduces Discipline COST by 20%, not increases Discipline by 20%.
I say that -20% Discipline Cost is equivalent to +25% Max Discipline and +25% Discipline restoration.
If what I'm saying is true, then 40 Discipline with Perfection should be able to accomplish what 25% more Discipline would accomplish without Perfection. So 25% of 40 is 10, for a total of 50. That means that if I'm right, 40 Discipline with Perfection should get us the same result as 50 without.
So let's say we have a skill that costs 10 discipline without Perfection. It'll cost 10 * 80% = 8 with Perfection.
40 Discipline with Perfection gets you:
40 / 8 = 5 skill uses
50 Discipline without Perfection gets you:
50 / 10 = 5 skill uses
Because we get the same number of skill uses with +25% Discipline as with Perfection, I say that having Perfection is equivalent to having 25% more Discipline from all sources.
Why not? If Perfectionist allows you to cast 25% more skills in every case, then isn't that the same as having +25% Max Discipline and Discipline restoration? I'm not saying that it literally increases your Discipline regen, but I am saying it's equivalent.
Runeless Caltrops 65% slow in aoe. Runeless Entagling shot is 2 sec, 70% slow for 2 enemy. Runeless Fan of Knives 65% slow for 4 second. Alabaster runed Vault has 4,5sec stun. Alabaster runed generates have 70% chance to stun for 2,5 sec. Indigo runed Impale stuns a single target for 3,5 sec. Alabaster runed Elemental arrow stuns for 3,5 sec when critical procs. Alabaster runed Cluster arrow stuns for 2,5 sec with 35% chance. Alabaster runed rapid shot: 40% shot for 5 sec. Golden runed Rain of Vengence stuns for 2secs.
I dont think I really need that mere 3 sec immobile enemy..
I can accept, that they want DH as an Autoatacking Archetype, but I then choose another class, because it's fucking diablo, and I want to spam my 6 skills, not shooting bland autoatacks.
As a side note: even I created 2 spell spamming builds(posted in another topic, I pu it here as well), but the passive part of these build are so restricted, that I cant really put anything else there, and that my problem.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#TdiQjk!YWg!bbccYZ
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#cadfWj!Wcf!ZZbZab
Still, its not like +25% regen increase.and +25% max dicipline. One or another at best.
No, it certainly is both. It makes all Discipline you have 25% more effective. All discipline that you have could be described as your max Discipline at the start plus any discipline you restore. That's why I say it's +25% Max Discipline (The discipline you start with) and +25% Discipline restoration (Any discipline you restore). Together they cover any and all Discipline from all sources.
Back to my point: it's only useful for half of your pool, and the half you use less than the other.
Exactly because I can use many skills, and rune one for stun or slow I dont feel like I need an immobilisation on normal attack. Hell, I dont even fell like autoatacking, since I have 6 shiny skills.
I think archery increases everything, not just bow/crossbow damage, so I think its useful, but yeah, but I know what you meant. But that was one skill, and maybe Steady Aim and end of story. I don't really have any other skill, that can help with theese builds. When I made some a barb and a WD build, I could barely choose and had more alternatives.
Now, let me start off with saying that I play hardcore, so my opinion may be tainted.
I will agree that if you're only looking at the skills, you are correct, the demon hunter will be underpowered. However, the DH has amazing synergy and an awesome toolkit for survival and offense. Fundamentalist on it's own makes me interested in exploring the playstyle. 100% increase to basic attack damage is great. It's even nice on the wizard. But the wizard is not an auto attack hero, thus the 100% increase should be dramatically higher for the DH.
Balistics is another one that really shines. Any build that uses rockets needs to have this passive. It takes a runed rapid fire from doing 480% weapon damage per second to 780% per second. That is vastly higher damage output than anything I've seen for the wizard.
Hot Pursuit is getting criticized quite a bit because it requires you to be at full hatred. While this is not one of the more potent passives, it does work well with a DH that is focused on fighting bigger mobs and bosses. It allows the DH to use it's discipline to keep large units at bay while it puts some extra distance between them and death. This is especialy useful for a rapid fire / shadow power build. Any time you spend moving (meaning you didn't put enough distance between you and your target) is a huge amount of damage lost.
Even at that, without the ability to spam teleport (go enigma!) you will be doing quite a lot of walking around sanctuary. Hell you even did a lot of that in diablo 2. This will help to aleviate the downtime some and, over a long period of gameplay, can really add up to a lot of time saved. 6 Seconds saved for every minute of running. Not bad.
My main point is that you need to remember that the skills are not the entire class. Yes, you will be spamming abilities like crazy, same as the wizard. However, at some point you will go OOM. Blizzard has designed the game to make sure that you do. What is the wizard going to do when it's OOM? It's going to run. What's the DH going to do when it's OOM? It's going to blow away some demons with it's crossbow.
I am fully understood each class pros and cons, still we Hunter needs SOME more better passives or even actives to represent ourselves right.
I really do feel that it's underpowered.
And the OP post, with his numbers of example, did missed quite a few passives and other active as well
Here's an example without the rune effects basis.
Barb Passive
Juggernaut - Reduced movement impairing effect by 20% , additionally if feared,stunned,charmed gain 15% life.
DH Passive
Comparing to Juggernaut? - None
Barb Active
War Cry - Gain frenzy and armor
DH Active
Shadow Power - Lose Discipline and gain aspd
And did you guys see that Barb's Sprint with Crimson? It by far exceeds any of our defensive move.
To Sum up
What I'm trying to point out is, When Barb gets all the gain and gain at a disposal of skill.
DH are forced to lose something to be able to gain something, if not, the gaining is just too minor (of a duration and effects) to be really worthwhile.
If u guys see what I mean
Please get this thread content to Blizz official forum, so they might noticed and give it a little more thought, cuz from my point of view, this class is still far unbalanced.