DiabloFans

Quote from DDodds

Quote from Dolaiim

In my opinion, if these iterations are yielding such major changes, something is broken at the core of the game.

They are changing:
Skills
Runes
Attributes

That's the core of how charaters behave and relate to the game engine. These are MAJOR changes, and I am justifiably concerned.

Dont forget items, which blizz has stated itself is the heart of what diablo is all about... Pretty shitty that there are so many huge changes that are going down now in the beta... After blizz keeps stating it is nearly complete and being polished etc.

That's really the only part I have an issue with. When I read Jay's post I was thinking two things:

The first was, "damn, these are big changes. But I understand every one.."
The second thought was: "Damn, this game isn't getting released any time soon."

I have to applaud Blizzard for such dedication to quality. Jay and Bash are spot on: you HAVE to go all-in with an idea.. poke it, bend it, stretch it, and stress it, to see if it will actually hold up and work as you expected.

One of my favorite quotes is: "You never know the next time you're gonna be wrong." Think about it.. every terrible idea didn't seem terrible at inception.. it ended up being terrible once everyone could see the outcome. Literally almost every great human invention has started as a mistake or failed idea. So we shouldn't over-estimate the abilities of human foresight.

I really believe Blizzard when they make changes like this. What constantly surprises me is how poorly they control customer expectations. They pump us up with hype until we're defcon 5 full overstoke, then do a 180 flip, and THEN have the audacity to blame their PR problems on the loyalty and excitement of their customers.

If you tell me something's almost done, then a month later tell me you're nowhere near done, you now have a credibility problem. PERIOD. This is something Blizzard can really improve on, and I hope they do.

In my opinion, if these iterations are yielding such major changes, something is broken at the core of the game.

They are changing:
Skills
Runes
Attributes

That's the core of how charaters behave and relate to the game engine. These are MAJOR changes, and I am justifiably concerned.

I love the fact that Blizzard is giving us this kind of information and insight into their design process. I'm also stoked that it lends more credence to my argument that they're not feature code complete. However, I'm then saddened that they're not feature code complete. But, I'm really glad they're being transparent and communicating with us about their progress. And the circle is complete.

As for the tooltip debate, it's a tooltip. It should be simple and basic. If the mathletes want to crunch numbers, they can do it on a notepad, their second monitor, or alt-tab. Totally agree with Bliz on this one.

Datamining is fucking bullshit. Bye dfans, it's been real.

That is brilliant.. Especially the randomization of orchestral scores.

The human brain is so subliminally attuned to sounds, I could see this work really adding a sub-conscious satisfaction to replaying the game..

Blizzard, YOU GREAT.

I have some thoughts.

First, this suits my playstyle very well, because I don't like constantly grinding characters (read: powerlevel) up to max level just to try a new build. I like having a couple of bad-ass characters and tweaking them.

Second, this allows us to very easily react to patches, post-release skill balancing, and new content.

Third, I am very compelled by Jay's argument about how people tend to play. This is psychology. Humans have a natural tendency to min-max. But what about this skill system prevents you from min-maxing? Whether you min-max by pressing a "+" button, or do it by matching skills with runes and gear and passives, you're going to be able to have single skill-centric builds if you want to. The only thing this does is make the process more fun and flexible for all gamers, not just the hardcore elite.

Fourth, to people who worry this will affect replay value: I understand that some people like to just constantly level up new chars to try new builds. I think that player base is in a distinct minority when compared with the breadth of potential D3 players. Everyone who pays $50 to play this game deserves to have fun, after all, that's what a game is for.

But more importantly, if the only thing left to do once you max a character is start from scratch and build a new character, that itself indicative of very low replay value! What I mean is, end-game replay value. In a game like this, end game is a critical component of replay value.

Be honest. You're gonna rush new characters to max level just for a respec. You're not re-playing the game because leveling is fun, you're replaying because you want another buff end-game character with a different build. Now you don't have to powerlevel any more, you can swap skills while enjoying a (hopefully) more replayable end-game.

I am excited that Blizzard seems to think there will be tons to do once you're level capped, because why else would they restrict character limits and focus their design on tweaking?

Fifth, if people are saying that "not enough core stat knobs to twist" means you won't be able to build EXACTLY the character you want, I strongly disagree. You can still build precisely the character you want, there are TONS of knobs (folks from the UK are prolly laughing right now). The only difference is, you don't have to crunch CORE STAT numbers. You still have to crunch a LOT of numbers, just not core stat stuff.

Sixth, and finally, it's pretty undeniable that by preventing core stat/skill manipulation, Blizzard is limiting extreme min-maxing. This is good for the game. Why? Because base skill manipulation is very complicated as a practice. While this suits the hardcore gamer, it makes the game as a whole suffer, because everyone who doesn't like core skill number crunching will feel compelled to copycat the extreme min-max builds in order to be viable. Remove that facility, and all gamers will find their own genius and create a much wider variety of viable builds.

All those observations aside, I do sympathize with people who find the lack of core stat/skill options upsetting.

I really like this idea. For those who haven't watched the actual video, Jay gives a really good justification for this.

Personally, I'm the type of player that has very few characters. I like to constantly tweak my few mains to make them as strong as possible. In that light, both this (proposed) rune change and the removal of skill points give me tons of options when tweaking my characters to best suit my playstyle.

Quote from fr0d0b0ls0n

Oh WAKE UP buddy. All the best items are going to gravitate almost immediately to the RMAH, for reasons that have been stated ad nauseum. So if I want to be competitive in this game, and I do, I will be forced to use the RMAH if that's where all the highest quality gear resides.

Probably if there is the same demand in both markets, what you said is true.

But if, for example, a legendary doesn't exists in the gold AH, is better to sell it for 5000 gold without competition, than undercut a 100$ legendary in the real-money AH, if the gold/$ exchange is better than 50 gold/$, and then sell the gold in the real-money AH.

The arbitrage will keep both markets balanced, maybe not everyone will do that, but a few intelligent people can balance the markets while making a big profit in the way, so...

Good point! That's a really compelling argument, and it's one that has me thinking a lot. I really hope it works out that way, and if this system plays out, I will be happy to eat my words. I have doubts, but the "we don't know how it's going to play out" door swings both ways.

Quote from mattheo_majik

Goof Ball? Is that derogatory term or comical? Take this outside.....? What? Man I see why you can't understand
even a simple system as this. Not only you get so heated in a virtual debate, I bet you must rage at home if you
lose a PvP duel in this case. I'm starting to understand where your coming from, though no matter how I try to relate I can't seem too. heh

You immediately have started personally attacking everyone on here of a dissenting opinion. This debate was much better until you unfortunately starting throwing your personally directed vitriol around. If you have anything else to say to me, please do it in PM so we can keep this discussion on track.

I'm sad? You're a goof ball pal, and if you wanna take this outside, I'm game. (Edit: I say this jokingly because you have a pic of st. pierre as your avatar, and I happen to study BJJ so I'd be down for a roll.)

No in all seriousness, I don't give a damn about some pre-canned HR Q/A quote. I don't need to quote anything in order to prove my point, I just need sound reasoning. We all know what's going to happen. I want to be competitive in this game, and in order to do so, it's extremely likely I will be forced to use the RMAH.

That quote you just gave me does nothing. I don't want to play the game that way, it will (most likely) not be viable for someone who wants to be competitive.

Quote from mattheo_majik

Quote from Dolaiim

My bottom line is this. Why do I have to exchange between two currencies in the FIRST PLACE? It's an added layer of toil that keeps me from killing monsters and getting loot.

There are many answers to this, but I haven't heard any that are compelling.

Actually there is only one answer to this. You don't. Who said you had to exchange in order to trade? Did Blizzard say that, if they did go find the quote and bring it here. Likewise for any MODS on Dfans.com, and the OP. They never stated you did have to eexchange.

Oh WAKE UP buddy. All the best items are going to gravitate almost immediately to the RMAH, for reasons that have been stated ad nauseum. So if I want to be competitive in this game, and I do, I will be forced to use the RMAH if that's where all the highest quality gear resides.

Now, Phrozen and Don seem to think that's fine, because arbitrage will magically make everyone win, but their reasoning sits on some seriously shaky ground, and am not moved by their arguments because there are no working models that represent the economy we're talking about here. It's never been done.

I object to the RMAH on both personal and practical grounds. Personal because I hate the idea of playing a game, and whenever gear drops it will be impossible not to think about how many real U.S. dollars it's worth. Practical level because ALL I WANT IS A WORKING ECONOMY. You can do that strictly with good game design. I don't want multiple layers of fake economy abstraction and extra currency exchange hoops to jump through.

Quote from Don_guillotine

Quote from N0kI

Quote from NeciFiX

My only concern is that people will probably want to BUY items in gold, but, SELL them in real money. See how that wouldn't work?

...and for that reason Gold AH will have only crap items.
LEGENDARY drops will ONLY be sold/bought in the real money AH.

Like Phrozen already said, the fact that gold is interchangeable into e-balance (or money) will eliminate this.

No it won't. You're assuming everyone behaves rationally, like counting machines. You're assuming everyone will exchange currencies immediately like some HFT software. Human beings are not pure theory executors, and the system in practice will be many orders of magnitude more complex than you and Phrozen are making it out to be.

Here's an important point: The models you're using are in reference to two real-world currencies. But that's not what we're discussing. We're talking about one fake currency and one actual currency. The models don't necessarily hold, and the emotion and moral dissonance that is obviously at work here destroys many of your notions.

While I honestly appreciate the exercise in econ 101, the world does not operate in a vacuum, nor does it adhere to steadfast rules like this, because there are no steadfast rules outside a vacuum. We can't say that a video game community is going to behave like wall street currency traders. The fact is we just don't know any of this for sure.

My bottom line is this. Why do I have to exchange between two currencies in the FIRST PLACE? It's an added layer of toil that keeps me from killing monsters and getting loot.

There are many answers to this, but I haven't heard any that are compelling.

Quote from Don_guillotine

And I'm personally going to post a ton of feedback if I notice that the free respec diminishes replayability.

hear hear!

Outstanding write-up P, very level-headed, solid presentation of both sides of the argument.

There's one element at play here that I've been tossing around in me gulliver. And it is the effect that no skill points will have on the RMAH. wtf am I talking about? Read on...

I'm gonna spell out what I think is a very plausible medium-term evolution of the game.

Phase 1: The "omg omg omg" phase. Excitement high. Impulsive buying high. Supply low. Races for leetdom drive market into wildly fluctuating highs and lows. Currency and exchange rates will be unpredictable. Farmers and market gamers will exploit volatility, but everyone is happy because of the excitement/impulsivity response.

Phase 2: Steady state phase. Players start to reach level cap. The markets start to flood with un-needed legendary quality items. As players realize how to capitalize on Market forces, arbitrage and exchange rates, gold will flood into the market as well. This will spark a period of fairly noticeable inflation, driven mainly by demand but also by the influx of currency and its ensuing manipulation.

Phase 3: Deflation, Level Cap and Balance. Here's where no skill points comes in. As players hit 60, and power-level alts to 60 (an activity encouraged by the devs), most serious gamers will have level-capped and geared all the characters they're interested in during the steady state phase.

But what now? Since your 1 character type can perpetually swap skills, there will be effectively NO reason to keep leveling alts of the same character type.. Just swap out skills! Thus, demand for high-end gear, normally fed by a constant influx of freshly leveled alts, will necessarily PLUMMET. Hard.

This will kick off a period of FIERCE DEFLATION. Why? Obviously demand will drop like it's hot, but also, gold will start being used for crafting instead of market gamesmanship for items everyone already has, so currency markets will seize up.

The only thing that could keep a fresh influx of characters is the hardcore scene, but it's confirmed that hardcore chars can only trade using the in-game gold AH (which should tell you something).

Once it's obvious that deflation is here to stay, with a little bit of luck, the farmers will go f*** off to game economies with greener pastures, leaving an intact, in-game gold economy for the actual Diablo players.

Big weapons, slow attack speeds, big numbers. I don't believe in killing something unless it's swift, brutal, and close enough to smell their last breath.

In other words, barbarian.

[kip]It's pretty cool I guess[/kip]