The mainstay issues are that they continue to just add layers...
That is why we need a seasonal cap on mainstat. What this will achieve is the following:
- Players will be free to choose how they want to progress and acquire mainstat: through grinding paragons (grs) or primals (rifts/bounties)
- Public games grouping will improve tremendously
- The RNG layers will be put down to rest
- Competitive, solo and casual players will be on even grounds with the 24/7 grinders
- Botting value will decrease
- Seasons will finally start feeling different from non-season besides stash tabs
Downsides of capping mainstat on seasons only: None.
And if something like character aging is implemented on seasons, botting value will be zero there. But it is a mechanic, which I doubt we will see, while D3 is on maintenance mode (aka too much work for the team).
Primal Ancients are one of the best ideas Diablo devs had in a long time!
Not even by a long shot.
Well, now by introducing Primals Blizzard simply nerfed paragons as we all wanted. Better gear means paragons are worth less!
No, they're not. Each paragon level is worth the exact same amount. A player with 1200 paragons with a Primal Weapon is still better than an 800 paragon with a Primal Weapon. All Primal Ancients will do is add more RNG. The difference between a Rank 1 and Rank 2 will be gear, always. Skill is pretty much defined at that point, and it will be the difference of usually the weapon slot. Who got the better rolled weapon? Who's skills are doing 5x5x1.25x1.30x1.20 more damage per attack? Primal Weapons only add that extra layer of RNG, which is fine, but then also take into account the rarity, Primal Ancient Obsidian Ring of the Zodiac. Awesome, Health Globes grant me... my life bar? REALLY GLAD I GOT THAT ONE. They've had this debate, and lost it, with their other, more popular games' communities.
Success would also be attributed to being lucky instead of skilled, or committed. If Primal Ancients make it through the cutting room, expect the Leaderboards to end up on the floor. Another reason not to play seasonal. Remember when the WHOLE point of seasonal play was to get as good as you could within a set amount of time and play as well as you could? IT hasn't changed, but what has is the perception of it. People grind the only power increase they can, and while doing so get well rolled items... nothing has changed. Paragons are a problem, but there are better options. Primals devalue Legendaries. I think they were going the right direction with Cald's Despair, but that should have been more like a Ram's Gift. That, and of course removing Primaries defensive traits, puts more value in each choice made with paragons. Up to 800, your choices don't matter, and after 800, well it's all mainstat, all the time.
And last but not least Primal Ancient means more build will be viable for farming keys and doing low GRs for gem ups. Players will start to experiment composing whole new builds around that one primal weapon they got. It will be more efficient to play weaker build but with better gear than to play better build but with worse items. Look at Crusaders Top100 - Bomb and Light builds go head to head depending on who got better grear for their spec - I think thats awesome and Primals could help diversify other ladderboards
I'm confused. If this diversity already exists, and has the possibility to exist, then how does adding a super rare drop change that? Other than making your Primal Ancient Crushbane better than a Wand of Woh?
If you want to talk itemization changes, then let's talk specifically about weapons. Already, a MH/OH combo is 5x stronger than almost every single 2H weapon in the game. Why?
-The difference between a MH and a 2H is minimal, 1.5k at Maximum.
-Set items offer even more power. (150% damage while at maximum Spirit)
-Sets and item combinations are more powerful. (Wearing 4pc Set A and 6pc Set B= 3000% damage)
People also misinterpret what it means when you 'can' have better. It's ALREADY an issue when getting into group play in seasonal (Season 9) if you're not already paragon 800, have a full set of Ancient Gear that's be augmented with 60+ gems, and part of the 'meta'. Let's say you enjoy WD. Well, Firebats WD got some buffs and is part of the meta, and hey, you're paragon 800, oh, you don't have an Ancient Sacred Harvester, we'll wait to find somebody who does. You don't have at least 11/13 Ancient? Too bad, enjoy farming your 60's in Public Games.
Now let's say you enjoy Demon Hunter. "Go play solo. I don't care if you're 2k paragon, full ancient and augmented with 100's.... you're not a FB WD, Mandald Wiz or Gen Monk."
Streamers used to (and to some degree still do) along with the leaderboards, set a standard of play. It's reinforced that the meta is really the only way to play, since doing anything other than that is less than optimal. It's an extremely similar conversation to that of WoW Legendaries, where Mythic raid teams won't even accept recruits without BiS Legendaries. They 'can' get them, but they didn't. Take the fact that WoW has over 10x the playerbase that Diablo does, and then think about the fact that Wow has 8(?) Legendaries per class, and 4(?) Shared Class Lengendaries. Diablo has thousands of Legendaries, all with a chance to roll Primal, and be really cool, or really crap. Take into account Affixes, an Ancient Wand of Woh is still better than a Primal Ancient Sloriak's Madness if you're using an Explosive Blast build. Yes, Primal Ancient would mean more damage per attack, but a Woh triples the damage of the skill, and has an additive 100% extra damage. You're going to make a build around Sloriak's? Sure... if you enjoy dying, I guess? Your wand can laugh at you?
Primal is a horrible idea, until they fix itemization and legendaries in general. For everyone, everywhere, at all skills levels.
The mainstay issues are that they continue to just add layers...
That is why we need a seasonal cap on mainstat. What this will achieve is the following:
- Players will be free to choose how they want to progress and acquire mainstat: through grinding paragons (grs) or primals (rifts/bounties)
- Public games grouping will improve tremendously
- The RNG layers will be put down to rest
- Competitive, solo and casual players will be on even grounds with the 24/7 grinders
- Botting value will decrease
- Seasons will finally start feeling different from non-season besides stash tabs
Downsides of capping mainstat on seasons only: None.
The issue I take with a seasonal cap, is it devalues time and effort. While I have a job, and can't play Diablo for 16 hours a day, I do have to have the respect that those who do will be better than me. I do try to make the most out of my playtime, and have reached the leaderboards a few times, and got knocked off, it's all part of the game.
To get to your bullet points here:
-Public games are toxic. The rare gem that is a good public game is rarer than a Primal Uber Super Meta Awesome Ancient Furnace (1,456,342-2,345,234 Damage, 3000% Damage to Elites, always rolls with 30% damage and 15% Attack Speed, and can be Gifted 5 times.) They almost always end in failure, mostly because there is a lack of communication. The 4-5 seconds it takes to type out there is a channeling pylon ahead because your team mates aren't tabbing constantly while not in combat can get you killed.
-Adding more RNG removes RNG.... I'd love to hear your logic on that one.
-Solo play will NEVER be on the same level as multiplayer, unless something drastic changes. I mean solo play, like, a 3x toughness boost when solo, or something crazy like that. The reasons why multiplayer games are so much better than solo is because 2 different builds merge together, one offensive, one defensive. If I can dish out another trillion damage by not focusing at all on defense, and the other player never dies and can extend that to me, then we'll go a lot further than a solo player trying to balance both. Also, I fail to see your logic in "the guy who plays for 2 hours and might find a really awesome Primal and the guy who plays 16 hours a day" are on the same playing field. Law of averages says that while yes, the 2 hour guy got REALLY lucky, the 16 hour guy has about 100000x the chances to get lucky. "I got 20 Traveler's Pledges today, 1 of them is bound to be decent" already exists.
-Has zero effect on botting. Botters will just continue to bot for gear. That's kind of the whole point of botting, to do the tedious and repetitive tasks that you don't want to. Look at all the people that were banned for botting off the leaderboards, you think they botted all of it, some of it, or maybe just the Keystone farming? (The answer is d) all of the above.) People already bot for gear as it is, for Ancients, for specific items, for everything. If you think by removing the paragon grind you're reducing botting, you're kind of missing the point.
-Seasons ARE different from Non-Seasonal. They are timed. Nobody is supposed to know exactly when the season ends (though it's been predictable, and then announced 2-4 weeks ahead of time, GG Blizz) which is supposed to be the point. You play as hard as you can, as long as you can, as well as you can, to achieve as much as you can, before it ends (and you get your name immortalized in the menus). Nobody cares about non-seasonal leaderboards, unless it's the off-season (week or two). ((How many Youtube videos are up about non-seasonal play? How many streamers are streaming non-seasonal play?)) Then it's all about how high you can push with the new changes and XXXX paragon. The builds are pre-determined before the season even starts. That's a problem. They've also the problems of not being able to change things mid-season. (Remember that old trick using Sever to one-shot an RG at high levels?)
Keep in mind that a large portion of the streamers didn't just leave because it was 'an endless grind for paragons', but it was also boring, doing the same thing over and over again. Which is simple to fix, remove support builds completely. No more 'heals your allies', '15% to your aliies', '50% for you and your allies', nothing, gone, bye bye. Big Bad Voodoo "While standing in the circle, YOU get 20% damage and 15% damage reduction." Simple. I fixed the boring monotonous paragon grind.
Then also keep in mind that they were also sick of the plateau, and hitting it so early on in the season. "No matter what I do, IF I get hit in GRXX, I die, even if I put all my 2500 paragons into Vitality, the white mob just one shots me." Adding a cap just extends this plateau to a longer time period. Also, we're one month into the season, and even casual solo's have 800+ paragons. When/where do you cap paragons? before 800 where they don't matter? (Why don't they matter you may be asking, because they're capped. You can only get 5% crit chance, 50% crit damage, and 10% CDR from paragons, what difference does it make where I put them when I get 800, the tree is filled.)
Seasons haven't changed. Perception has. People see it as an endless grind for paragons, and the only real part that matters is the last week of the season. I see it like a sport, every game counts, from the first to the last. I Agree that paragons are a problem, but capping them sort of means you hit the cap, get some good gear, do your good rift, and quit for the rest of the season. If that's 2 days in, what purpose is there to play the game?
The issue I take with a seasonal cap, is it devalues time and effort.
-Seasons ARE different from Non-Seasonal. They are timed.
You have it written yourself, but you fail to see it. Let me make it easier for you: Because seasons are time limited, time and effort from a player during a season are limited too. Seasonal mainstat cap devalues nothing.
About the RNG: With a seasonal cap, the role the RNG plays gets smaller. Finding some primals will grant you extra mainstat, but since it is capped at some value, it won't matter if it was belt, armor etc... At some point during the season a player will reach the cap and he won't care about the RNG anymore. It will be just: 1) having fun, 2) aiming LBs, 3) switching to NS for more main stat.
The issue I take with a seasonal cap, is it devalues time and effort.
-Seasons ARE different from Non-Seasonal. They are timed.
You have it written yourself, but you fail to see it. Let me make it easier for you: Because seasons are time limited, time and effort from a player during a season are limited too. Seasonal mainstat cap devalues nothing.
About the RNG: With a seasonal cap, the role the RNG plays gets smaller. Finding some primals will grant you extra mainstat, but since it is capped at some value, it won't matter if it was belt, armor etc... At some point during the season a player will reach the cap and he won't care about the RNG anymore. It will be just: 1) having fun, 2) aiming LBs, 3) switching to NS for more main stat.
I see it perfectly, you're a non-seasonal player, and all your friends still play seasonal. If I devote 4 hours a day to playing seasonal Diablo 3, then I should expect to get X value from it. With RNG, I can expect a lot less and receive a lot more. If another player devotes 8 hours a day and their lively hood to the season, then they can expect to get Y value from it. If ever X = Y, then there is a HUGE problem. How do you not see this?
As far as your logic goes, it sounds like you just hate seasons. Playing non-seasonal during a season isn't in the spirit of seasons, for a seasonal player. It would kind of be like quitting? I don't play a lot of Diablo in the non-season. It's not fun nor is it entertaining. I have (now) 9 seasons worth of gear saved up, what are the chances I don't have a perfectly rolled set of Ancient, everything? I get that for a non-seasonal player, Primals sound like a god-send, but when weighed into a competition, they're just another level of RNG, power creep, that puts the fate of your entire season in the hands of RNG. It already is, in a way, but you can get multiple Ancient items, poorly rolled, well rolled, and perfectly rolled. Making Legendaries non-existent isn't a good answer. Capping mainstat isn't an answer. You want people to play for 3 months. You want them to be excited for 3 months. You want them to have fun for 3 months. You don't want them to get capped on day 5 and quit to go play Hello Kitty Island Adventure because they're "done".
You want people to play for 3 months. You want them to be excited for 3 months. You want them to have fun for 3 months.
Yep, that is why the devs are putting the primals in the game: Nobody is excited when he has to farm paragon. But, wait... You said primals are "a horrible idea". You are contradicting yourself again. Primals are exactly added to keep people excited, because with or without mainstat cap 99% of the players are gone after 2 weeks of season's start.
Just to make one thing clear:
1) Primals without seasonal mainstat cap are good for the casuals and bad for everybody else, because of the RNG
2) Primals with seasonal mainstat cap are good for everyone
As far as your logic goes, it sounds like you just hate seasons. Playing non-seasonal during a season isn't in the spirit of seasons, for a seasonal player. It would kind of be like quitting? I don't play a lot of Diablo in the non-season. It's not fun nor is it entertaining. I have (now) 9 seasons worth of gear saved up, what are the chances I don't have a perfectly rolled set of Ancient, everything? I get that for a non-seasonal player, Primals sound like a god-send, but when weighed into a competition, they're just another level of RNG, power creep, that puts the fate of your entire season in the hands of RNG. It already is, in a way, but you can get multiple Ancient items, poorly rolled, well rolled, and perfectly rolled. Making Legendaries non-existent isn't a good answer. Capping mainstat isn't an answer. You want people to play for 3 months. You want them to be excited for 3 months. You want them to have fun for 3 months. You don't want them to get capped on day 5 and quit to go play Hello Kitty Island Adventure because they're "done".
But dude, let me say one thing: Many, if not "most" of D3 players play seasons just to get extra stash and go back to non-season after this. Did you notice seasons are abandoned hills after 2nd month? If you don´t have a really close team, you will need to come back to non-season just because you have no option unless you play solo.
ANY improvment to game must take it seriously in consideration. Or you will need to get back the exclusives legendaries and create some exclusive seasonal build/sets to keep everyone playing seasons until it ends. And even that way, just those ones how really need the new items will keep playing it until it ends.
Edit: Ok, i know "most of players" dont abandon seasons and seasonal player base é really enough to keep playing if you really want to. My bad. But doesn't anwers the question: What to do to keep seasons interesting after 2 months and keep non-seasonal players not moaning about it?
You want people to play for 3 months. You want them to be excited for 3 months. You want them to have fun for 3 months.
Yep, that is why the devs are putting the primals in the game: Nobody is excited when he has to farm paragon. But, wait... You said primals are "a horrible idea". You are contradicting yourself again. Primals are exactly added to keep people excited, because with or without mainstat cap 99% of the players are gone after 2 weeks of season's start.
Just to make one thing clear:
1) Primals without seasonal mainstat cap are good for the casuals and bad for everybody else, because of the RNG
2) Primals with seasonal mainstat cap are good for everyone
It's like talking to the toaster and expecting it to understand. I'll say this, here, officially; If you accept the term that Diablo is in MM, you are a fool. If you blindly accept that any change to the game is an improvement, then you'll have to accept that Berry Sparkle Cake Attack will be the highest point damage skill that the Necromancer will get, because, it's a change, so it must be an improvement.
PTR is meant for discussion. It's supposed to provide the community a position to take on the next content patch. The points you've made are foolhardy. They serve only your interests, not the game as a whole. While I've agreed with you that paragon is a problem, you've theatrically attempted to prove that I somehow am contradicting myself. It's you who has yet to prove the point of why Primals are "good". You stated a few points, I've pointed out that your logic is flawed. Your response is that RNG is minimized with a seasonal cap, and also, it'll make less people care about playing seasons. That is purely your viewpoint on how the game should be played. If people hated seasons so much, why do so many people play seasonal? (I'm not going to debate that, as it's completely off topic, but the fact remains that your replies are in extent from the viewpoint that seasons are a waste of time.)
The Devs also said: "We're adding Paragons to the game." and "We're reworking Paragons to be an endless ladder." Those were amazing ideas too, right? You can't have your cake and eat it too. It's not contradictory if I didn't say Primals will add excitement. Sure, it *could* be exciting, but it's just another level of farm for those who take the competition seriously. It doesn't change your gameplay choices it just simply prolongs the status of GG, which truth be told, may not happen, and then AGAIN, your entire season, 16 hours a day, wasted, because you didn't have good RNG.
The difference is the perception. You see it as farming paragons and getting GG, whereas I see it as farming GG and getting paragons (it's intended purpose btw). When people are GG, what do they do? Do they swap to non-seasonal, and just play for funzies? Or do they farm paragon and try and push as high as they can? Introducing Primals will make a difference, sure, Rank 1 on all the leaderboards will be 13/13 Primal, all the way to about Rank 85ish. From there to about 400ish it'll be 12/13 Primal. From there down it'll be 11/13 Primal until you reach probably around 900ish, and that'll be filled up with the 10/13 Primal players. So what about all those super serious folks off the leaderboards that played 16 hours a day, and only got 9/13 Primal items for their build? What do they get? You see this as a nerf to paragons, when in fact it's the opposite. It's something that's been a problem in WoW for a while now, the difference between Warforging and Titanforging. However, items are farmable in WoW (Boss A drops Item X) it's RNG if the item upgrades, if it even drops, but it can't drop from another boss, in D3's case, another RG.
As far as your logic goes, it sounds like you just hate seasons. Playing non-seasonal during a season isn't in the spirit of seasons, for a seasonal player. It would kind of be like quitting? I don't play a lot of Diablo in the non-season. It's not fun nor is it entertaining. I have (now) 9 seasons worth of gear saved up, what are the chances I don't have a perfectly rolled set of Ancient, everything? I get that for a non-seasonal player, Primals sound like a god-send, but when weighed into a competition, they're just another level of RNG, power creep, that puts the fate of your entire season in the hands of RNG. It already is, in a way, but you can get multiple Ancient items, poorly rolled, well rolled, and perfectly rolled. Making Legendaries non-existent isn't a good answer. Capping mainstat isn't an answer. You want people to play for 3 months. You want them to be excited for 3 months. You want them to have fun for 3 months. You don't want them to get capped on day 5 and quit to go play Hello Kitty Island Adventure because they're "done".
But dude, let me say one thing: Many, if not "most" of D3 players play seasons just to get extra stash and go back to non-season after this. Did you notice seasons are abandoned hills after 2nd month? If you don´t have a really close team, you will need to come back to non-season just because you have no option unless you play solo.
ANY improvment to game must take it seriously in consideration. Or you will need to get back the exclusives legendaries and create some exclusive seasonal build/sets to keep everyone playing seasons until it ends. And even that way, just those ones how really need the new items will keep playing it until it ends.
Edit: Ok, i know "most of players" dont abandon seasons and seasonal player base é really enough to keep playing if you really want to. My bad. But doesn't anwers the question: What to do to keep seasons interesting after 2 months and keep non-seasonal players not moaning about it?
Your entire post was contradicted with your edit. There are many suggestions on how to make the seasonal and game better all over the place. My overall suggestion for the non-seasonal players would be, if you don't want to take part in that half of the game, don't meddle with it. "I can't play kuz my friends all play seasonal."? Maybe you should play seasonal. I've had a few friends who've been skeptical about because of D3's RNG, and now we all play seasonally, together. Why? As much fun as it is destroying everything on a GG geared character, it is also fun to play the game from scratch. No paragons, no gems, and no gear. I think Season 7 instead of seeing who got the highest GR, we raced paragons. It was fun. It also brings to line new players. Season starts and everybody is new, whereas in non-seasonal, you've got 4k paragons, GG gear and destroy everything, how on earth does somebody who bought a box yesterday catch up? Enough off topic though. If we blindly accept "ANY improvement" to the game... See "Berry Sparkle Cake Attack" above.
The problems are not the items, it's the paragon system and teamplay vs. soloplay thats the problem.
You compete on not even terms. How can a soloplayer even get close to the same paragon as a player that usually grind in a 4-man team. This also goes to leveling up gems and arguementing gear.
There should be an option preferably when you create your character or atleast when you enter your first greater rift. That saves you to a leaderboard type. This includes gems and items achived from greater rifts.
That would atleast set the soloboards to fair and reasonable propotion.
Adding better items is not bad it's motivating and if you then look at the leaderboards well yes ofcourse the ones with the best gear are usually in the top, the season is long and what's stopping everyone to get the good gear themselfs to compete even with 2-4hrs/day gameplay. People should start compete more against themselfs then look at others.
I agree with the first statement here. Completely. They really should do something about it. What should they do though? They had to add all the group bonuses to get people to play in groups. It was more advantageous if you solo'd Diablo on the highest difficulty you could prior to the RMAH/AH departing, and the group exp/magic find buff. I agree, there should be a form of trading available in game, but if you were around in those times, a level 55 1h sword would sell for 20m gold. Not a lot by today's standards, but this was before the Boon of the Hoarder. You had enough to repair if you were lucky, without selling items on the AH.
The third bit in there, about having separate leaderboards is redundant unless you plan on secluding yourself from playing with your friends. I agree it's not a good system, but realistically saying 'I'm only playing solo this season' is kind of, well, limiting. The idea is to expand your options. I'd agree that support builds, skills that affect others in your group, and the exp buff could go out the window, but then we're back to a solo player game. As far as adding better items, how does adding Primals fix any of the issues that are currently plaguing the game? By adding a lucky drop that might close a little bit of paragon gap, that they'll have anyway AND a drop or 12 more of their own? I'm not against build diversity, but I used to hate builds that REQUIRED item X to work, because despite having all the other 12 pieces, not having that 13th broke everything. Admittedly, Legendaries rain from the sky, but they aren't all good. Some of them are downright bad. Ancients suffer the same RNG; I give you, the new and improved Mandald Heal, pinnacle of the Wiz Season 9. If you want to be competitive on the solo leaderboards (I'm talking Top 1000 at this point, 1 month into the season) you NEED one, and not just an okay one, but a well rolled, if not perfect one. The range on the affix is 1000% damage, and a real difference maker when mobs have higher health pools. Now imagine if you will, Primals exist, and they are extremely rare. You are the luckiest of lucky people and get a Primal Ancient Mandald Heal to drop really early in the season. You're SO excited about the red border, and then you look at the stats on the ring;
-Int
-AR
-RCR
-%Life
-Enemies stunned by Paralysis take 13,231% weapon damage, as Lightning.
How excited are you now, that one of the rarest and most sought after items for Wizards in the game, is now yours and wearing it is actually worse than wearing an Ancient one with -CHC -CHD - CDR -Socket, -13987%? Which in and of itself would be a miracle to get, unless, as is current format, you spent 16 hours a day farming Grifts and paragons. Adding items isn't a bad thing, adding better items, not a bad thing. Adding better versions of what we already have, for no other purpose than for power creep, is bad. It's an old adage at this point, but if you're not using an ancient weapon, it's not worth playing. They've tried to alleviate that by making (absurd btw) power gains on sets and legendary affixes. Anything they add numbers wise is a bad thing. If you really look at it. "The leaderboards are cluttered with people spamming 4 man meta groups all day and then soloing GR 102 with all the stuff they got from that portion of the game". That's not going to change unless something is done to drastically reduce the bonuses to group play. To build on that even more, the more they add, the bigger the divide between players becomes. The honest truth of it is that paragons are a problem. Nobody is denying that, but if we blindly accept this as a 'good thing' without actually questioning it, we're doomed to repeat the failure that is paragons.
It's like talking to the toaster and expecting it to understand. I'll say this, here, officially; If you accept the term that Diablo is in MM, you are a fool. The points you've made are foolhardy. They serve only your interests, not the game as a whole. While I've agreed with you that paragon is a problem, you've theatrically attempted to prove that I somehow am contradicting myself.
Discussion is far from over Arydor. The ship just leaved the harbor. I expect such threads to be re-created on the forums during the whole Season 4. This topic will be re-discovered and re-discussed by the players just as the topic with the trials mechanic was. It all boils down to when blizzard will finally hear the community.
Ah and btw I have no self-interest in D3 (RMAH is long gone). I haven't played since S5 (I am not a non-seasonal player - surprise!). Sad thing is the people from my friend list don't play too. Somehow endless paragon and botting killed the game for all of them. Some will return for the Challenge Rifts, the others will stay with WoW, HS and PoE, just as D3 will stay in maintenance mode for the years to come.
It's like talking to the toaster and expecting it to understand. I'll say this, here, officially; If you accept the term that Diablo is in MM, you are a fool. The points you've made are foolhardy. They serve only your interests, not the game as a whole. While I've agreed with you that paragon is a problem, you've theatrically attempted to prove that I somehow am contradicting myself.
Discussion is far from over Arydor. The ship just leaved the harbor. I expect such threads to be re-created on the forums during the whole Season 4. This topic will be re-discovered and re-discussed by the players just as the topic with the trials mechanic was. It all boils down to when blizzard will finally hear the community.
Ah and btw I have no self-interest in D3 (RMAH is long gone). I haven't played since S5 (I am not a non-seasonal player - surprise!). Sad thing is the people from my friend list don't play too. Somehow endless paragon and botting killed the game for all of them. Some will return for the Challenge Rifts, the others will stay with WoW, HS and PoE, just as D3 will stay in maintenance mode for the years to come.
I don't think I was trolling back then, and I'm not now. After 2 years, we're not talking about the same thing. You're talking about a cap in seasons, still, and it's still a bad idea. If you can't reward people for taking the time and effort to play the game, why would they play it? I'm saying that Primals are a bad idea, with or without a cap, because they don't add anything to the game in it's current form. I've seen people say "You can Grift for exp, or Rift and Bounty for Primals" which, is kind of like saying you Grift now for Blood Shards and do bounties for gear. Greater Rifts don't drop legendaries? Something I hadn't even thought of would be the Bounty Legendaries. Remember when Ancients first arrived and they were sort of rare to get them, and yet people would STILL spam split bounty groups until they got an Ancient Illusionary Boots or RoRG? That will still happen with Primals.
I knew back then that paragons were a problem. Your solution is to limit each player to a set amount of mainstat, in which, they cannot progress any further up the endless ladder. Your solution doesn't fix the problem, it just makes seasons shorter. A race if you would, instead of a competition. Primals are innately bad, just like Ancients were a bad idea when they were implemented. I remember having countless discussions about how as an above-casual-but-below-hardcore player, I'd probably see maybe 2 perfect ancient pieces per season. That held true, as a hardcore player I'd likely see a full set of near perfect ancient rolls. That held true too. In case you don't remember, Ancients weren't welcomed either, and they weren't welcome until Blizzard upped the drop rate. Now a month in a people are finding full sets of Ancient gear in a week. Primals is the same path. We'll have the same discussion again in 2 years time, the cycle will continue. It won't change the fact that until they change something like;
-Each Paragon Point for Intelligence, Dexterity,and Strength now only increases by 1-2 and each point in Vitality now increases by 10.
-Intelligence no longer gives Resist All, Strength and Dexterity no longer give Armor.
-Vitality now grants Armor and Resist All at a ratio of 10 Vitality = 1 Armor,1 Resist All.
Nothing will change, ever. Or they could rework the paragon system, again. Which by the way wasn't a problem until people started gaining such massive amounts of exp. I still remember the first person to hit paragon 1000, and that was a crazy achievement. Now it's just another number. I remember when leveling your gems to 30-35 was a big deal. It all falls back to the math behind D3, and Primals are just simply put a bad idea. You've also failed to counter my points. You can't say why Primals are a good idea without resorting to backwards logic of 'don't let people play for 16 hours at a time'. They don't have to, they want to. The only difference in this opinion, is how fast they get their GG gear, and how much longer they have to 'farm paragons' to keep up with the guy behind them on the LBs because he's motivated to beat the time to take Rank 1. There really isn't character progression after GG as far as gear/skills/passives go. So what is the reward for continuing to play after you've achieved GG status? Paragons. They aren't the best system, they aren't even a good system, but currently they are all we get.
Take Season 9 here for example, let's say Primals were implemented today. Y0da goes out and farms some speed Grift 100's (!!) and low and behold he gets a Primal Ancient Pig Sticker. It's rolled pretty terribly, but it's what he wanted, so he fixes it up as best he can and equips it and jumps 12 Grift levels on the LBs. Now let's say the guy in 15th is doing the same thing, but he gets a Primal Tal'Rasha's Relentless Pursuit, and jumps 2 Grift levels. In the spirit of competition, that's BAD. Let's look at an even worse case scenario, the player in 800th spot... well, he got SUPER lucky and got 4 Primals, all for his build, and jumps from 800th to 2nd. The guy who was in third got 2 Primals but they were Crushbane and Obsidian. He's now falling down the ladder as people who are farming at the same level are getting more/better Primals than he is. Now he's in 800th spot because bad RNG. After about the 14th Primal Ancient Sloriak's Madness he quits, because the game is just RNG. How is that good for the game?
EDIT: Also in that thread, my original post was "a warning shot" as it were, as the discussion wasn't being anywhere near logical. Yes paragons were a problem then, and have continued to be a problem now, and will likely remain a problem in the future. I also go on to read that most of that thread was you spouting off about mainstat and paragon caps. You still haven't answered what the reward is for after being GG and hitting cap. Nothing. D3 offers nothing in sorts of advancement after people reach your cap. The competition is over, you hit your peak and that's all you get. Problem with that is, it could be late in the season, it could be early, but then it's not a competition, but a race against RNG. Not much of a grindy game then is it?
I never say they are not power creep, maybe you misread something.
Power creep is not always something bad.
That is why we need a seasonal cap on mainstat. What this will achieve is the following:
- Players will be free to choose how they want to progress and acquire mainstat: through grinding paragons (grs) or primals (rifts/bounties)
- Public games grouping will improve tremendously
- The RNG layers will be put down to rest
- Competitive, solo and casual players will be on even grounds with the 24/7 grinders
- Botting value will decrease
- Seasons will finally start feeling different from non-season besides stash tabs
Downsides of capping mainstat on seasons only: None.
And if something like character aging is implemented on seasons, botting value will be zero there. But it is a mechanic, which I doubt we will see, while D3 is on maintenance mode (aka too much work for the team).
Not even by a long shot.
No, they're not. Each paragon level is worth the exact same amount. A player with 1200 paragons with a Primal Weapon is still better than an 800 paragon with a Primal Weapon. All Primal Ancients will do is add more RNG. The difference between a Rank 1 and Rank 2 will be gear, always. Skill is pretty much defined at that point, and it will be the difference of usually the weapon slot. Who got the better rolled weapon? Who's skills are doing 5x5x1.25x1.30x1.20 more damage per attack? Primal Weapons only add that extra layer of RNG, which is fine, but then also take into account the rarity, Primal Ancient Obsidian Ring of the Zodiac. Awesome, Health Globes grant me... my life bar? REALLY GLAD I GOT THAT ONE. They've had this debate, and lost it, with their other, more popular games' communities.
Success would also be attributed to being lucky instead of skilled, or committed. If Primal Ancients make it through the cutting room, expect the Leaderboards to end up on the floor. Another reason not to play seasonal. Remember when the WHOLE point of seasonal play was to get as good as you could within a set amount of time and play as well as you could? IT hasn't changed, but what has is the perception of it. People grind the only power increase they can, and while doing so get well rolled items... nothing has changed. Paragons are a problem, but there are better options. Primals devalue Legendaries. I think they were going the right direction with Cald's Despair, but that should have been more like a Ram's Gift. That, and of course removing Primaries defensive traits, puts more value in each choice made with paragons. Up to 800, your choices don't matter, and after 800, well it's all mainstat, all the time.
I'm confused. If this diversity already exists, and has the possibility to exist, then how does adding a super rare drop change that? Other than making your Primal Ancient Crushbane better than a Wand of Woh?
If you want to talk itemization changes, then let's talk specifically about weapons. Already, a MH/OH combo is 5x stronger than almost every single 2H weapon in the game. Why?
-The difference between a MH and a 2H is minimal, 1.5k at Maximum.
-Set items offer even more power. (150% damage while at maximum Spirit)
-Sets and item combinations are more powerful. (Wearing 4pc Set A and 6pc Set B= 3000% damage)
People also misinterpret what it means when you 'can' have better. It's ALREADY an issue when getting into group play in seasonal (Season 9) if you're not already paragon 800, have a full set of Ancient Gear that's be augmented with 60+ gems, and part of the 'meta'. Let's say you enjoy WD. Well, Firebats WD got some buffs and is part of the meta, and hey, you're paragon 800, oh, you don't have an Ancient Sacred Harvester, we'll wait to find somebody who does. You don't have at least 11/13 Ancient? Too bad, enjoy farming your 60's in Public Games.
Now let's say you enjoy Demon Hunter. "Go play solo. I don't care if you're 2k paragon, full ancient and augmented with 100's.... you're not a FB WD, Mandald Wiz or Gen Monk."
Streamers used to (and to some degree still do) along with the leaderboards, set a standard of play. It's reinforced that the meta is really the only way to play, since doing anything other than that is less than optimal. It's an extremely similar conversation to that of WoW Legendaries, where Mythic raid teams won't even accept recruits without BiS Legendaries. They 'can' get them, but they didn't. Take the fact that WoW has over 10x the playerbase that Diablo does, and then think about the fact that Wow has 8(?) Legendaries per class, and 4(?) Shared Class Lengendaries. Diablo has thousands of Legendaries, all with a chance to roll Primal, and be really cool, or really crap. Take into account Affixes, an Ancient Wand of Woh is still better than a Primal Ancient Sloriak's Madness if you're using an Explosive Blast build. Yes, Primal Ancient would mean more damage per attack, but a Woh triples the damage of the skill, and has an additive 100% extra damage. You're going to make a build around Sloriak's? Sure... if you enjoy dying, I guess? Your wand can laugh at you?
Primal is a horrible idea, until they fix itemization and legendaries in general. For everyone, everywhere, at all skills levels.
You implied people were using the term incorrectly. If they are talking about Primal Ancients, they are talking about power creep.
I didn't say it was either. Power creep for the sake of power creep is always bad. Paragons for example.
The issue I take with a seasonal cap, is it devalues time and effort. While I have a job, and can't play Diablo for 16 hours a day, I do have to have the respect that those who do will be better than me. I do try to make the most out of my playtime, and have reached the leaderboards a few times, and got knocked off, it's all part of the game.
To get to your bullet points here:
-Public games are toxic. The rare gem that is a good public game is rarer than a Primal Uber Super Meta Awesome Ancient Furnace (1,456,342-2,345,234 Damage, 3000% Damage to Elites, always rolls with 30% damage and 15% Attack Speed, and can be Gifted 5 times.) They almost always end in failure, mostly because there is a lack of communication. The 4-5 seconds it takes to type out there is a channeling pylon ahead because your team mates aren't tabbing constantly while not in combat can get you killed.
-Adding more RNG removes RNG.... I'd love to hear your logic on that one.
-Solo play will NEVER be on the same level as multiplayer, unless something drastic changes. I mean solo play, like, a 3x toughness boost when solo, or something crazy like that. The reasons why multiplayer games are so much better than solo is because 2 different builds merge together, one offensive, one defensive. If I can dish out another trillion damage by not focusing at all on defense, and the other player never dies and can extend that to me, then we'll go a lot further than a solo player trying to balance both. Also, I fail to see your logic in "the guy who plays for 2 hours and might find a really awesome Primal and the guy who plays 16 hours a day" are on the same playing field. Law of averages says that while yes, the 2 hour guy got REALLY lucky, the 16 hour guy has about 100000x the chances to get lucky. "I got 20 Traveler's Pledges today, 1 of them is bound to be decent" already exists.
-Has zero effect on botting. Botters will just continue to bot for gear. That's kind of the whole point of botting, to do the tedious and repetitive tasks that you don't want to. Look at all the people that were banned for botting off the leaderboards, you think they botted all of it, some of it, or maybe just the Keystone farming? (The answer is d) all of the above.) People already bot for gear as it is, for Ancients, for specific items, for everything. If you think by removing the paragon grind you're reducing botting, you're kind of missing the point.
-Seasons ARE different from Non-Seasonal. They are timed. Nobody is supposed to know exactly when the season ends (though it's been predictable, and then announced 2-4 weeks ahead of time, GG Blizz) which is supposed to be the point. You play as hard as you can, as long as you can, as well as you can, to achieve as much as you can, before it ends (and you get your name immortalized in the menus). Nobody cares about non-seasonal leaderboards, unless it's the off-season (week or two). ((How many Youtube videos are up about non-seasonal play? How many streamers are streaming non-seasonal play?)) Then it's all about how high you can push with the new changes and XXXX paragon. The builds are pre-determined before the season even starts. That's a problem. They've also the problems of not being able to change things mid-season. (Remember that old trick using Sever to one-shot an RG at high levels?)
Keep in mind that a large portion of the streamers didn't just leave because it was 'an endless grind for paragons', but it was also boring, doing the same thing over and over again. Which is simple to fix, remove support builds completely. No more 'heals your allies', '15% to your aliies', '50% for you and your allies', nothing, gone, bye bye. Big Bad Voodoo "While standing in the circle, YOU get 20% damage and 15% damage reduction." Simple. I fixed the boring monotonous paragon grind.
Then also keep in mind that they were also sick of the plateau, and hitting it so early on in the season. "No matter what I do, IF I get hit in GRXX, I die, even if I put all my 2500 paragons into Vitality, the white mob just one shots me." Adding a cap just extends this plateau to a longer time period. Also, we're one month into the season, and even casual solo's have 800+ paragons. When/where do you cap paragons? before 800 where they don't matter? (Why don't they matter you may be asking, because they're capped. You can only get 5% crit chance, 50% crit damage, and 10% CDR from paragons, what difference does it make where I put them when I get 800, the tree is filled.)
Seasons haven't changed. Perception has. People see it as an endless grind for paragons, and the only real part that matters is the last week of the season. I see it like a sport, every game counts, from the first to the last. I Agree that paragons are a problem, but capping them sort of means you hit the cap, get some good gear, do your good rift, and quit for the rest of the season. If that's 2 days in, what purpose is there to play the game?
You have it written yourself, but you fail to see it. Let me make it easier for you: Because seasons are time limited, time and effort from a player during a season are limited too. Seasonal mainstat cap devalues nothing.
About the RNG: With a seasonal cap, the role the RNG plays gets smaller. Finding some primals will grant you extra mainstat, but since it is capped at some value, it won't matter if it was belt, armor etc... At some point during the season a player will reach the cap and he won't care about the RNG anymore. It will be just: 1) having fun, 2) aiming LBs, 3) switching to NS for more main stat.
As far as your logic goes, it sounds like you just hate seasons. Playing non-seasonal during a season isn't in the spirit of seasons, for a seasonal player. It would kind of be like quitting? I don't play a lot of Diablo in the non-season. It's not fun nor is it entertaining. I have (now) 9 seasons worth of gear saved up, what are the chances I don't have a perfectly rolled set of Ancient, everything? I get that for a non-seasonal player, Primals sound like a god-send, but when weighed into a competition, they're just another level of RNG, power creep, that puts the fate of your entire season in the hands of RNG. It already is, in a way, but you can get multiple Ancient items, poorly rolled, well rolled, and perfectly rolled. Making Legendaries non-existent isn't a good answer. Capping mainstat isn't an answer. You want people to play for 3 months. You want them to be excited for 3 months. You want them to have fun for 3 months. You don't want them to get capped on day 5 and quit to go play Hello Kitty Island Adventure because they're "done".
Yep, that is why the devs are putting the primals in the game: Nobody is excited when he has to farm paragon. But, wait... You said primals are "a horrible idea". You are contradicting yourself again. Primals are exactly added to keep people excited, because with or without mainstat cap 99% of the players are gone after 2 weeks of season's start.
Just to make one thing clear:
1) Primals without seasonal mainstat cap are good for the casuals and bad for everybody else, because of the RNG
2) Primals with seasonal mainstat cap are good for everyone
But dude, let me say one thing: Many, if not "most" of D3 players play seasons just to get extra stash and go back to non-season after this. Did you notice seasons are abandoned hills after 2nd month? If you don´t have a really close team, you will need to come back to non-season just because you have no option unless you play solo.
ANY improvment to game must take it seriously in consideration. Or you will need to get back the exclusives legendaries and create some exclusive seasonal build/sets to keep everyone playing seasons until it ends. And even that way, just those ones how really need the new items will keep playing it until it ends.
Edit: Ok, i know "most of players" dont abandon seasons and seasonal player base é really enough to keep playing if you really want to. My bad. But doesn't anwers the question: What to do to keep seasons interesting after 2 months and keep non-seasonal players not moaning about it?
It's like talking to the toaster and expecting it to understand. I'll say this, here, officially; If you accept the term that Diablo is in MM, you are a fool. If you blindly accept that any change to the game is an improvement, then you'll have to accept that Berry Sparkle Cake Attack will be the highest point damage skill that the Necromancer will get, because, it's a change, so it must be an improvement.
PTR is meant for discussion. It's supposed to provide the community a position to take on the next content patch. The points you've made are foolhardy. They serve only your interests, not the game as a whole. While I've agreed with you that paragon is a problem, you've theatrically attempted to prove that I somehow am contradicting myself. It's you who has yet to prove the point of why Primals are "good". You stated a few points, I've pointed out that your logic is flawed. Your response is that RNG is minimized with a seasonal cap, and also, it'll make less people care about playing seasons. That is purely your viewpoint on how the game should be played. If people hated seasons so much, why do so many people play seasonal? (I'm not going to debate that, as it's completely off topic, but the fact remains that your replies are in extent from the viewpoint that seasons are a waste of time.)
The Devs also said: "We're adding Paragons to the game." and "We're reworking Paragons to be an endless ladder." Those were amazing ideas too, right? You can't have your cake and eat it too. It's not contradictory if I didn't say Primals will add excitement. Sure, it *could* be exciting, but it's just another level of farm for those who take the competition seriously. It doesn't change your gameplay choices it just simply prolongs the status of GG, which truth be told, may not happen, and then AGAIN, your entire season, 16 hours a day, wasted, because you didn't have good RNG.
The difference is the perception. You see it as farming paragons and getting GG, whereas I see it as farming GG and getting paragons (it's intended purpose btw). When people are GG, what do they do? Do they swap to non-seasonal, and just play for funzies? Or do they farm paragon and try and push as high as they can? Introducing Primals will make a difference, sure, Rank 1 on all the leaderboards will be 13/13 Primal, all the way to about Rank 85ish. From there to about 400ish it'll be 12/13 Primal. From there down it'll be 11/13 Primal until you reach probably around 900ish, and that'll be filled up with the 10/13 Primal players. So what about all those super serious folks off the leaderboards that played 16 hours a day, and only got 9/13 Primal items for their build? What do they get? You see this as a nerf to paragons, when in fact it's the opposite. It's something that's been a problem in WoW for a while now, the difference between Warforging and Titanforging. However, items are farmable in WoW (Boss A drops Item X) it's RNG if the item upgrades, if it even drops, but it can't drop from another boss, in D3's case, another RG.
Your entire post was contradicted with your edit. There are many suggestions on how to make the seasonal and game better all over the place. My overall suggestion for the non-seasonal players would be, if you don't want to take part in that half of the game, don't meddle with it. "I can't play kuz my friends all play seasonal."? Maybe you should play seasonal. I've had a few friends who've been skeptical about because of D3's RNG, and now we all play seasonally, together. Why? As much fun as it is destroying everything on a GG geared character, it is also fun to play the game from scratch. No paragons, no gems, and no gear. I think Season 7 instead of seeing who got the highest GR, we raced paragons. It was fun. It also brings to line new players. Season starts and everybody is new, whereas in non-seasonal, you've got 4k paragons, GG gear and destroy everything, how on earth does somebody who bought a box yesterday catch up? Enough off topic though. If we blindly accept "ANY improvement" to the game... See "Berry Sparkle Cake Attack" above.
I agree with the first statement here. Completely. They really should do something about it. What should they do though? They had to add all the group bonuses to get people to play in groups. It was more advantageous if you solo'd Diablo on the highest difficulty you could prior to the RMAH/AH departing, and the group exp/magic find buff. I agree, there should be a form of trading available in game, but if you were around in those times, a level 55 1h sword would sell for 20m gold. Not a lot by today's standards, but this was before the Boon of the Hoarder. You had enough to repair if you were lucky, without selling items on the AH.
The third bit in there, about having separate leaderboards is redundant unless you plan on secluding yourself from playing with your friends. I agree it's not a good system, but realistically saying 'I'm only playing solo this season' is kind of, well, limiting. The idea is to expand your options. I'd agree that support builds, skills that affect others in your group, and the exp buff could go out the window, but then we're back to a solo player game. As far as adding better items, how does adding Primals fix any of the issues that are currently plaguing the game? By adding a lucky drop that might close a little bit of paragon gap, that they'll have anyway AND a drop or 12 more of their own? I'm not against build diversity, but I used to hate builds that REQUIRED item X to work, because despite having all the other 12 pieces, not having that 13th broke everything. Admittedly, Legendaries rain from the sky, but they aren't all good. Some of them are downright bad. Ancients suffer the same RNG; I give you, the new and improved Mandald Heal, pinnacle of the Wiz Season 9. If you want to be competitive on the solo leaderboards (I'm talking Top 1000 at this point, 1 month into the season) you NEED one, and not just an okay one, but a well rolled, if not perfect one. The range on the affix is 1000% damage, and a real difference maker when mobs have higher health pools. Now imagine if you will, Primals exist, and they are extremely rare. You are the luckiest of lucky people and get a Primal Ancient Mandald Heal to drop really early in the season. You're SO excited about the red border, and then you look at the stats on the ring;
-Int
-AR
-RCR
-%Life
-Enemies stunned by Paralysis take 13,231% weapon damage, as Lightning.
How excited are you now, that one of the rarest and most sought after items for Wizards in the game, is now yours and wearing it is actually worse than wearing an Ancient one with -CHC -CHD - CDR -Socket, -13987%? Which in and of itself would be a miracle to get, unless, as is current format, you spent 16 hours a day farming Grifts and paragons. Adding items isn't a bad thing, adding better items, not a bad thing. Adding better versions of what we already have, for no other purpose than for power creep, is bad. It's an old adage at this point, but if you're not using an ancient weapon, it's not worth playing. They've tried to alleviate that by making (absurd btw) power gains on sets and legendary affixes. Anything they add numbers wise is a bad thing. If you really look at it. "The leaderboards are cluttered with people spamming 4 man meta groups all day and then soloing GR 102 with all the stuff they got from that portion of the game". That's not going to change unless something is done to drastically reduce the bonuses to group play. To build on that even more, the more they add, the bigger the divide between players becomes. The honest truth of it is that paragons are a problem. Nobody is denying that, but if we blindly accept this as a 'good thing' without actually questioning it, we're doomed to repeat the failure that is paragons.
Ok, I just realized I was feeding a troll:
http://www.diablofans.com/forums/diablo-iii-general-forums/diablo-iii-general-discussion/130338-paragon-10000?page=2#c30
http://www.diablofans.com/forums/diablo-iii-general-forums/diablo-iii-general-discussion/130338-paragon-10000?page=6#c126
Ironically after 2 years we are again talking about paragon and mainstat cap.
Ah and btw I have no self-interest in D3 (RMAH is long gone). I haven't played since S5 (I am not a non-seasonal player - surprise!). Sad thing is the people from my friend list don't play too. Somehow endless paragon and botting killed the game for all of them. Some will return for the Challenge Rifts, the others will stay with WoW, HS and PoE, just as D3 will stay in maintenance mode for the years to come.I don't think I was trolling back then, and I'm not now. After 2 years, we're not talking about the same thing. You're talking about a cap in seasons, still, and it's still a bad idea. If you can't reward people for taking the time and effort to play the game, why would they play it? I'm saying that Primals are a bad idea, with or without a cap, because they don't add anything to the game in it's current form. I've seen people say "You can Grift for exp, or Rift and Bounty for Primals" which, is kind of like saying you Grift now for Blood Shards and do bounties for gear. Greater Rifts don't drop legendaries? Something I hadn't even thought of would be the Bounty Legendaries. Remember when Ancients first arrived and they were sort of rare to get them, and yet people would STILL spam split bounty groups until they got an Ancient Illusionary Boots or RoRG? That will still happen with Primals.
I knew back then that paragons were a problem. Your solution is to limit each player to a set amount of mainstat, in which, they cannot progress any further up the endless ladder. Your solution doesn't fix the problem, it just makes seasons shorter. A race if you would, instead of a competition. Primals are innately bad, just like Ancients were a bad idea when they were implemented. I remember having countless discussions about how as an above-casual-but-below-hardcore player, I'd probably see maybe 2 perfect ancient pieces per season. That held true, as a hardcore player I'd likely see a full set of near perfect ancient rolls. That held true too. In case you don't remember, Ancients weren't welcomed either, and they weren't welcome until Blizzard upped the drop rate. Now a month in a people are finding full sets of Ancient gear in a week. Primals is the same path. We'll have the same discussion again in 2 years time, the cycle will continue. It won't change the fact that until they change something like;
-Each Paragon Point for Intelligence, Dexterity,and Strength now only increases by 1-2 and each point in Vitality now increases by 10.
-Intelligence no longer gives Resist All, Strength and Dexterity no longer give Armor.
-Vitality now grants Armor and Resist All at a ratio of 10 Vitality = 1 Armor,1 Resist All.
Nothing will change, ever. Or they could rework the paragon system, again. Which by the way wasn't a problem until people started gaining such massive amounts of exp. I still remember the first person to hit paragon 1000, and that was a crazy achievement. Now it's just another number. I remember when leveling your gems to 30-35 was a big deal. It all falls back to the math behind D3, and Primals are just simply put a bad idea. You've also failed to counter my points. You can't say why Primals are a good idea without resorting to backwards logic of 'don't let people play for 16 hours at a time'. They don't have to, they want to. The only difference in this opinion, is how fast they get their GG gear, and how much longer they have to 'farm paragons' to keep up with the guy behind them on the LBs because he's motivated to beat the time to take Rank 1. There really isn't character progression after GG as far as gear/skills/passives go. So what is the reward for continuing to play after you've achieved GG status? Paragons. They aren't the best system, they aren't even a good system, but currently they are all we get.
Take Season 9 here for example, let's say Primals were implemented today. Y0da goes out and farms some speed Grift 100's (!!) and low and behold he gets a Primal Ancient Pig Sticker. It's rolled pretty terribly, but it's what he wanted, so he fixes it up as best he can and equips it and jumps 12 Grift levels on the LBs. Now let's say the guy in 15th is doing the same thing, but he gets a Primal Tal'Rasha's Relentless Pursuit, and jumps 2 Grift levels. In the spirit of competition, that's BAD. Let's look at an even worse case scenario, the player in 800th spot... well, he got SUPER lucky and got 4 Primals, all for his build, and jumps from 800th to 2nd. The guy who was in third got 2 Primals but they were Crushbane and Obsidian. He's now falling down the ladder as people who are farming at the same level are getting more/better Primals than he is. Now he's in 800th spot because bad RNG. After about the 14th Primal Ancient Sloriak's Madness he quits, because the game is just RNG. How is that good for the game?
EDIT: Also in that thread, my original post was "a warning shot" as it were, as the discussion wasn't being anywhere near logical. Yes paragons were a problem then, and have continued to be a problem now, and will likely remain a problem in the future. I also go on to read that most of that thread was you spouting off about mainstat and paragon caps. You still haven't answered what the reward is for after being GG and hitting cap. Nothing. D3 offers nothing in sorts of advancement after people reach your cap. The competition is over, you hit your peak and that's all you get. Problem with that is, it could be late in the season, it could be early, but then it's not a competition, but a race against RNG. Not much of a grindy game then is it?