Yeah, this would actually be interesting. Although it doesn't really help much, it's an obvious result that people who play much are high paragon and people who play much are on top of the leaderboards. It's kind of a nice thing to see for people who go crazy about statistics and numbers (me me me!), but irrelevant for this discussion.
The reason I brought it up in this thread and that it seems relevant to this discussion is that it might demonstrate through hard data what is already suspected, that the main stat inflation that occurs after p800 is a major factor in leaderboard position. This to me is THE major flaw with the paragon system as it currently exists - that it distorts the fairness of the competitive environment and essentially invalidates the leaderboards. I don't think anyone is denying that people who play more should have more power and therefore more advantage, but the p800+ main stat inflation is grossly more advantage than is justified - especially given the exacerbating problems you point out in the OP about how much easier it is to level above 750 and 2000 relative to below.
If someone who mines this data would simply publish each player's paragon level with their leaderboard position, that would do it, and I have no idea why they don't. I realize that until 2.3 when full snapshots are available, paragon would still be a dynamic number in such rankings whereas GR-based position would be static. However, I still think publishing both together now would shed some statistical light on a major reason the paragon system needs rework.
"Yes people should be rewarded for what they put into the game, but this
kind of system just encourages botting and endless grinding."
I find that to be a really weird statement. How else do you compete in diablo? The whole game is one huge grinder (grind levels, grind gear, grind paragon, grind gems). This is kindof the exact same problem that the devs were worried would occur with pvp, that balance would be an issue and they didn't want to have to constantly re-blance things over competition. Well, guess they forgot when adding pve competition. Pretty much everyone was fine with paragon levels until it became an issue when competing on leaderboards. Now we have people attempting to break game systems for competitions sake. Paragon should be left alone (and it seems damage has already been done) and the change should be made to the competition instead since that is the only thing where paragon is a problem. I still say cap it in competitive modes only and leave non-competitive modes untouched.
If total xp required for P2.5k is 204324847000000, then we'll see the first P2.5k in S4 after 2 months.
Edit: And if xp P2.5k-P5.5k scales linearly, then after 100 days we'll see P3.2k, where the average player (4h/day) will be around P1.6k. This is 8000 main stat difference. And the solo player will be... Hmm no point in calcing that, I doubt anyone will play solo.
Autocthon: A 20% paragon level difference in two seasons is the exact same level of competitive fairness no matter the absolute level differences.
No, it is not.
It is if you make a few assumptions regarding relative statistical weightings of paragon stats vs gear stats.
After a certain point 20% paragon = 20% mainstat = 20% faster kill speed
The lower paragon levels will have the most statistical discrepancy because 1 paragon point means more relative to total stats. Currently maximum main stat on items is about 10k. Assuming we ignore the first 800 points of paragon in order for paragon to be 50% of main stat you need 2800. At which point a 20% difference in paragon level (another 20% main stat paragon) equates to 10% more DPS. By the time you've reached 10k paragon you have 84% of main stat from paragon levels and another 20% paragon level equates to ~17% more DPS.
Eventually any given relative paragon level difference becomes essentially a relative DPS difference. Which is really what my statement is about. Until that point there will be some competitive drift but we're already well beyond the point where we will be seeing exceptionally significant drift.
Please forgive them, for they know not what they speak. And please, oh lord, allow this thread and threads like it to wither away and die as they should.
Service is over, BG has provided us with the ammo we need to tear his entire thread to the ground, please leave in an orderly fashion or go down with the ship.
I thought it was a very interesting discussion, regardless of who and what I agree with. We should always welcome discussions this well thought out and extensive. What you're doing is not in any way helpful to foster understanding of the games intricacies. You just pulled out a shotgun and opened fire.
Cap the paragon level at 800 for GRs. This takes paragon out of the equation, levels the playing field, and places the emphasis on gear stats and skill. The additional paragon could still be used for bounties and rifts.
Discussion is far from over Arydor. The ship just leaved the harbor. I expect such threads to be re-created on the forums during the whole Season 4. This topic will be re-discovered and re-discussed by the players just as the topic with the trials mechanic was. It all boils down to when blizzard will finally hear the community.
I was thinking a little bit about this. Since mainly paragon will decide, and not gear (I work full time, have 2 kids, but at least in S1 I was top 60 Crusader, and that without ancient weapon, BTW I never got an ancient Blade of Prophecy, from the 30 or so that dropped after ancient patch). I was just over P600 then.
I would like everybody to give at least some chance to compete on leaderboard (where as, I am the casual one here, compared to others that just have more time to play the game and grind paragons).
My idea is, that, at least for seasons (let non-seasons have the power creep), main stat and vitality should be limited to 100 points invested each (that would be like a Paragon cap of 1000) - due to power creep, even the average Joe playing 3-4 hours a day should be able to reach that P lvl in a season now. Everything else that goes over P1000 should be added as a chance to find ancient legendaries. Let's say 500 paragons give you 10% better chance to find ancients, actually, the 10+10% chance for a leg to be ancient.
This would give those that play more bigger chances to find ancients, also it will still be hard to compete with them as an "average" player, since they will have much more time to fish for better rifts, but at least having a chance as an average player to compete on leaderboards.
This season I took a break of one and a half month from D3, since I saw there is no chance I can compete (since I don't have a group to farm for 55+ keys - solo I farm 50-51, but that's just not enough).
Seriously, Blizzard should just remove paragon levels from seasonal play and leave paragon hoarding for non-seasonal only.
Or not so radical but effective move would be that Blizzard puts paragon limit on season play, like max 800p/season. After that ppl who like to farm paragon should just go to non-season. This way everyone could have enough time to relax and farm materials too, no botter advantage. Problem solved.
NOTE: Despite the "fix", paragon is still an issue and, depending on how long season 4 will last, will be an even larger issue as it was in season 3 due to the fact that XP gain will even be more inflated. The core issues are still relevant, and the solutions proposed should still work. Note that CAPPING paragon is not really a solution - better would be to either 1) let it continue to scale exponentially after 750 (best solution), or 2) remove XP gear (it's the same as MF gear in D3V), or 3) lower the benefits paragon gives after level 800 (probably the best overall and feasible solution as it also works retroactively on non-season).