All this discussion depends on numberless factors that we have no info like drop ratings, how they will handle pvp, what items will or not be BoE, etc...
I know it's wrong to see this whole BoE and PvP thing through D2. In D2 a BoE would -=NEVER=- work. And i'm just curious what changes will happen from D2 to D3 to make this whole BoE/PvP matter viable.
But it doesn't mean they don't give a shit about PvP, it can be ignored and that D3 will survive 10 years due the PvM public. It doesn't mean D3 are being made to maintain the popularity through PvM
D2 high end = PvP.
Hilarious.
I don't have anything against people who like duels, but you are a really miniscule portion of D2 fans, long and short-term ones. Even a game built from the ground up for serious competitive PvP, with PvP as the explicitly intended endgame, Guild Wars... the PvP community is STILL the minority. People prefer fighting AI opponents they rarely lose to. This is just how RPGs go.
The problem here is that i wll need to play PvE even more then any PvE player existent since i'll have to farm all my gear whenever i have to change it.
?! Anyways you're never gain exp when you PvP... so like d2 you need to PvE....
And what you think if you win a good bet's item when you won the duel ? If you're good enough to win PvP you will find quickly good items even more faster than PvE...
Quote from italofoca »
They said they want competitive PvP in long terms...
? I never heard that !! I heard they want co-op playing in long terms...
?! Anyways you're never gain exp when you PvP... so like d2 you need to PvE....
And what you think if you win a good bet's item when you won the duel ? If you're good enough to win PvP you will find quickly good items even more faster than PvE...
? I never heard that !! I heard they want co-op playing in long terms...
I've posted execly this bet idea And another one based at official tornaments were winners get special items.
I"m not trolling around saying D3 will fail because of BoE. I"m saying they will have to find a way to give enough dynamic to the PvP enviorment because BoE decrease it.
And i've posted a interview with jay wilsom a couple pages ago were say the focus of the game are co-op but they wish to add a competitive enviorment in PvP at long terms.
find a way to give enough dynamic to the PvP enviorment because BoE decrease it.
Please explain... ?!
If you're smart enough you will keep the BoE PvP items for your PvP characters so you will not equip it... Once you found better you will sell the BoE and you'll equip the new one.
EDIT: the only thing it done, you don't make benefit someone else/another character with a good item.
"Put yourself in blizzard's shoes: you spend years making a game, and along comes this group of players (PvP) who does everything in their power to avoid playing the game. a bit disheartening, no? now, you can say "oh, but we play the game, we just don't play it over and over and over again". that might be, but let's face it: most of your characters were probably rushed, anyway, so you hardly experienced the game at all. personally, i've completed the game with all classes at least once, and if you think finishing Hell with non-cookie-cutters is just a matter of grinding and farming....you're mistaken."
Good one, its like, where is your damn appreciation? kinda line, it works for me sometimes, I dont know for the others here.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mathematics is a penumbra, those who hold such an affection to this noble field would find themselves into the realm of the Heirarchy of Abstracts and Paradoxes.
It's a matter of how we view the game. I look at it as a whole. If I want to play a PvP game, I'll buy a pvp game. I'm not going try and force the developers to change the game around how I want to play the game.
Considering D2 is the king of all gank and run hack and slash rpgs, I guess this makes it unfair to remove the gank and run style pk. Don't change the diablo series, go play pokemon if you want a kiddy game where everyone holds hands and tickles eachother.
As far as BoE though, like it or hate it, its not going to actually solve the problem of the economy getting overloaded. Just because I can't trade my current item doesn't mean I have any reason to trade you for yours. The best BoE will do is add mindless pve grind and discourage experimentation with gear set ups.
Only two ways I can think of to keep a game economy fresh and prevent inflation...
1. D2 style periodic ladder resets. Obviously we're all familiar with this system and its pros and cons.
2. Permanent destruction of items. You need to create demand. All BoE does is slow supply. If your filling a bucket with water it doesn't matter if the hose is halfway on or full blast, the bucket will overflow at some point.
"Put yourself in blizzard's shoes: you spend years making a game, and along comes this group of players (PvP) who does everything in their power to avoid playing the game. a bit disheartening, no? now, you can say "oh, but we play the game, we just don't play it over and over and over again". that might be, but let's face it: most of your characters were probably rushed, anyway, so you hardly experienced the game at all. personally, i've completed the game with all classes at least once, and if you think finishing Hell with non-cookie-cutters is just a matter of grinding and farming....you're mistaken."
Good one, its like, where is your damn appreciation? kinda line, it works for me sometimes, I dont know for the others here.
The thing you pve only players fail to recognize. PvP is harder then pve. I enjoyed the pve of the game, I played through various builds for each class at some point, but it gets to a point where you learn a lot about the game, and the generic ai of pve is just too easy, so a lot of people move on to pvp as the next challenge.
Besides considering pvp'ing requires good gear to actually be fun...how did I acquire this gear. It couldn't possible have been *gasp* I did some pve and trading. Maybe it helps to know the game well and be more efficient at pve and trading so you can achieve in a couple weeks what it takes others 6 months to do.
The bottum line is, every decent dueler I've ever played with could rape pve 890187978 different ways. However, I've met plenty of decent pve'ers that just flat out suck at pvp. So next time you accuse pvp'ers, who must be good at pve/trading to be good at dueling, of not wanting to play the game, why not take a step back, look at the whole picture, and you might just realize...you've only ever played half the game.
take first-person-shooters as a quick example: everyone has the same gear (in most FPS games), so it comes down to skill. how do you acquire more skill? you play the game more. as Michal (and italofoca, if i'm not mistaken) has stated, skill in diablo is almost non-existent, it mostly comes down to items. So......how do you acquire more items? guess what.....that's right, you play the game more. Now...spending 4 hours in a trade chat room trying to convince some guy to go along with a trade that might or not be fair....to me, that's not playing the game.
WOAH WOAH WOAH, now I don't want to be banned or infracted here cause trust me buddy it's really hard for me to hold back on such comments.
Tell you what tell me the realm and I will make a garbage geared character LOWER level then you and I will whoop you in PvP cause I have more SKILL in PvP then you do. Then if you could please somehow explain to me what just happend after I 5-0 you with a lower level inferior geared character and tell me somehow that there is no skill in Diablo PvP.
A good PvPer understands the deep depth that is Diablo PvP the PvMer's only understand their ear dropping and gold taken.
I really have no idea what's going on here, but whatever it is, I'm going to hope that all of you guys can be trusted to stay within the limits you know you should.
grind - you gotta grind for some wealth and levels
trading - chances are everything you need isnt going to be self found, and youll find things of value you don't need, so knowing the economy to maximize your trades is a big factor
game knowledge - You need to know how to spec and gear your character. You also need to know how to fight your build vs other builds. The more builds you can play well yourself, the more you'll know how to fight against, so game knowledge and experience is a huge factor. If your not using the proper tactics at the appropriate time, you fail.
skill - twitch gaming, whatever you want to call it. D2 pvp is fast paced, and most fights between good characters don't last more then 2-4 hits. If you can't evade and aim well with your character your not going to do well in pvp.
I really have no idea what's going on here, but whatever it is, I'm going to hope that all of you guys can be trusted to stay within the limits you know you should.
Haha im trying Seth.
BoE does remove and hinder PvP in ways that I think even Blizzard and PvM'ers could understand. They are essentially saying with BoE that you should know and understand the BoE system and how to use it. Now they removed weapon switch cause it was to "confusing" and it was something that only some people could use correctly apparently, I am wondering how they expect a person who couldn't comprehend hitting W to switch weapons and what good that could benefit them to comprehend putting on an item and not being able to trade it. Then again I am wondering how they expect those people to even install the game..but that is another issue. Point being Blizzard wants this game as simple and easy to play as possible, so if they are removing such systems as weapon switch why is it so that this much more complex system gets to stay?
It does hinder PvP cause now I can't really try gear on if it is BoE, I can trade for it, and find out it sucks then bam I just got ripped off cause this item sucks, were as now I can trade, equip...try it...don't like it...meh trade it away, now I am forced to sell it for probably 1/3 of its value in gold and be screwed. This also helps cookie cutter builds happen cause noone will experiment nearly as much with gear if it is BoE and would likely look online for the "best" build and go with that.
It does hinder PvP cause now I can't really try gear on if it is BoE, I can trade for it, and find out it sucks then bam I just got ripped off cause this item sucks, were as now I can trade, equip...try it...don't like it...meh trade it away, now I am forced to sell it for probably 1/3 of its value in gold and be screwed. This also helps cookie cutter builds happen cause noone will experiment nearly as much with gear if it is BoE and would likely look online for the "best" build and go with that.
I think you maybe right with more people going with Cookie Cutter builds since people are less likely to experiment with the BoE equipment. Some of the BoE is likely going to be easy to determine if it is good to use since we can use our judgment. The problem is if the BoE has a special property or oskill or something than it becomes harder to tell if it is right for your character.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On Strike and supporting Fallout 4 Mod Makers
Some fallout 4 mod makers have had their mods stolen and uploaded and downloaded on Bethesda's site for the Xbox One.
PvP players who reckon that BoP/BoE will break PvP are basically admitting that gear is more important that skill, thereby nullifying any reason to PvP in the first place. I also can't quiet grasp the concept of BoE supposedly supporting cookie cutter builds. If WoW is any indication, BoE will exist primarily on gear that actually has prefixes or suffixes that are very desireable as opposed to gear without BoE. Therefore, people would actually want BoE items. Learn your class and theory-craft until you figure out what you need to improve your character, that way when you see something, you can make a decision. After all, another comment I read in this topic suggested PvP players generally know their classes better than PvE players. Prove it, and I don't mean this to irritate PvPers, but to actually encourage you guys that much more hardcore if you say you are. The more pride you put towards statements like that, the less you should have to worry about picking out the wrong equipment.
If the BoE items really are that powerful then yes you have a point, it won't matter what it is that you just traded for since it is most likely better then what you got. However it could give let's say +10 to min damage on BoE but my weapon does +15 to cold damage and I find out that my cold damage is better in the long run over the min damage and I should of gotten a +10 max damage weapon instead of the min damage. Now I am not really screwed and I can still PvP just as good as before, I just have to play a little smarter which there is nothing wrong with that. BoE doesn't favor experimentation as well as the d2 system did, having said that it does a way greater part for the trading and community so it is tolerable as there are 2 sides to Diablo and that is PvM AND PvP, they both need to be good to make Diablo great.
I have to say, great post. Feels like it bitch slapped the whole thread and the mood changed haha.
Another thing which people haven't considered is the issue of those annoying online item sellers.
In WoW blizzard eliminated it by making virtually all gear bind on pick up.
Try to imagine a scenario where "top end" items in diablo are bind on equip. The Chinese farmers are going to have a bonanza.
But that is a secondary issue to the ones that concern me the most.
Overall though, I don't know what I was expecting from an internet forum. Maybe the slick design of diablo.fans website, and relative slow moving forum made me assume some kind of more sophisticated mature gamer.
To be quite frank, some of the PVE'ers commenting here are either
a) Complete idiots,
Are woefully ignorant about the intricacies of what made diablo work. (not surprising considering PVP'ers have always been the largest community of long-term players of Diablo 2 in its old age. Whether you know or care to admit this is up to you)
c) Are indeed well informed, but simply to selfish to acknowledge the issues raised here about irreversible BOE and what it will do to the entire fun of what Diablo PVP is about
Normally I would never start bad-mouthing people, but the sheer condacending attitude of PVE'ers in this thread has pushed me to it.
Completely ignore the issues raised, and try to address them with snarky comments like "Oh NO! Don't tell me Binding is going to force PVP'ers to actually play the game!", as if PVP'ers jumped into diablo, and went straight to dueling. Every PVP'er began as a PVE'er, enjoyed and appreciated the beautiful game of Diablo, and only began PVP'ing when the repetitive nature of PVE became boring. The other gamer's who had experienced and enjoyed the game and then got bored, simply quit the game and left. While others turned to PVP and kept supporting the Diablo community for years and years to come
Then you have these childish PVE'ers who arrogantly think the only voice that matters is theirs.
Haha im trying Seth.
BoE does remove and hinder PvP in ways that I think even Blizzard and PvM'ers could understand Now they removed weapon switch cause it was to "confusing" and it was something that only some people could use correctly apparently, I am wondering how they expect a person who couldn't comprehend hitting W to switch weapons and what good that could benefit them to comprehend putting on an item and not being able to trade it. Then again I am wondering how they expect those people to even install the game..but that is another issue. Point being Blizzard wants this game as simple and easy to play as possible, so if they are removing such systems as weapon switch why is it so that this much more complex system gets to stay?
Wrong thread men !!!
Damn it, We are talking about BoE !!! not Switch and not PvP !!!
Please someone explain me WHAT PvP does with BoE !!! NOTHING !!!!!!!!
BoE is great for many reason and it's already confirmed so stop arguing meaningless arguments please. I will start to think few peoples here are brainless.
Damn it, We are talking about BoE !!! not Switch and not PvP !!!
Please someone explain me WHAT PvP does with BoE !!! NOTHING !!!!!!!!
BoE is great for many reason and it's already confirmed so stop arguing meaningless arguments please. I will start to think few peoples here are brainless.
Um I clearly was talking about BoE, I was comparing it to Weapon switch which was just taken out of Diablo 3. If people can't comprehend how to hit W how are they expected to comprehend not being able to trade an item that is BoE?
BoE effects PvP cause now you no longer can put on any item on your character and test it out, you cannot free willingly trade for any item and trade it later down the road, it harms experimentation which is a part of PvP. It doesn't hinder PvP that drastically and I feel it aids the community economy greater then it hinders PvP so I have little issue with it, but to deny that it doesn't effect PvP is just being blind.
ohh ok thx I understand a little bit better now !!
But I think all BoE will be very powerful, and you just have to plan considering your build and your strategy and well analysis the power of item to know if it's good, no need to test it... (ok, maybe if the power description was unclear like d2) But I think they will improve that... I hope...
I know it's wrong to see this whole BoE and PvP thing through D2. In D2 a BoE would -=NEVER=- work. And i'm just curious what changes will happen from D2 to D3 to make this whole BoE/PvP matter viable.
Hilarious.
I don't have anything against people who like duels, but you are a really miniscule portion of D2 fans, long and short-term ones. Even a game built from the ground up for serious competitive PvP, with PvP as the explicitly intended endgame, Guild Wars... the PvP community is STILL the minority. People prefer fighting AI opponents they rarely lose to. This is just how RPGs go.
?! Anyways you're never gain exp when you PvP... so like d2 you need to PvE....
And what you think if you win a good bet's item when you won the duel ? If you're good enough to win PvP you will find quickly good items even more faster than PvE...
? I never heard that !! I heard they want co-op playing in long terms...
-------------------------------------------
Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
-------------------------------------------
I've posted execly this bet idea And another one based at official tornaments were winners get special items.
I"m not trolling around saying D3 will fail because of BoE. I"m saying they will have to find a way to give enough dynamic to the PvP enviorment because BoE decrease it.
And i've posted a interview with jay wilsom a couple pages ago were say the focus of the game are co-op but they wish to add a competitive enviorment in PvP at long terms.
Please explain... ?!
If you're smart enough you will keep the BoE PvP items for your PvP characters so you will not equip it... Once you found better you will sell the BoE and you'll equip the new one.
EDIT: the only thing it done, you don't make benefit someone else/another character with a good item.
Good one, its like, where is your damn appreciation? kinda line, it works for me sometimes, I dont know for the others here.
Considering D2 is the king of all gank and run hack and slash rpgs, I guess this makes it unfair to remove the gank and run style pk. Don't change the diablo series, go play pokemon if you want a kiddy game where everyone holds hands and tickles eachother.
As far as BoE though, like it or hate it, its not going to actually solve the problem of the economy getting overloaded. Just because I can't trade my current item doesn't mean I have any reason to trade you for yours. The best BoE will do is add mindless pve grind and discourage experimentation with gear set ups.
Only two ways I can think of to keep a game economy fresh and prevent inflation...
1. D2 style periodic ladder resets. Obviously we're all familiar with this system and its pros and cons.
2. Permanent destruction of items. You need to create demand. All BoE does is slow supply. If your filling a bucket with water it doesn't matter if the hose is halfway on or full blast, the bucket will overflow at some point.
The thing you pve only players fail to recognize. PvP is harder then pve. I enjoyed the pve of the game, I played through various builds for each class at some point, but it gets to a point where you learn a lot about the game, and the generic ai of pve is just too easy, so a lot of people move on to pvp as the next challenge.
Besides considering pvp'ing requires good gear to actually be fun...how did I acquire this gear. It couldn't possible have been *gasp* I did some pve and trading. Maybe it helps to know the game well and be more efficient at pve and trading so you can achieve in a couple weeks what it takes others 6 months to do.
The bottum line is, every decent dueler I've ever played with could rape pve 890187978 different ways. However, I've met plenty of decent pve'ers that just flat out suck at pvp. So next time you accuse pvp'ers, who must be good at pve/trading to be good at dueling, of not wanting to play the game, why not take a step back, look at the whole picture, and you might just realize...you've only ever played half the game.
Tell you what tell me the realm and I will make a garbage geared character LOWER level then you and I will whoop you in PvP cause I have more SKILL in PvP then you do. Then if you could please somehow explain to me what just happend after I 5-0 you with a lower level inferior geared character and tell me somehow that there is no skill in Diablo PvP.
A good PvPer understands the deep depth that is Diablo PvP the PvMer's only understand their ear dropping and gold taken.
d2 pvp consists of multiple parts
grind - you gotta grind for some wealth and levels
trading - chances are everything you need isnt going to be self found, and youll find things of value you don't need, so knowing the economy to maximize your trades is a big factor
game knowledge - You need to know how to spec and gear your character. You also need to know how to fight your build vs other builds. The more builds you can play well yourself, the more you'll know how to fight against, so game knowledge and experience is a huge factor. If your not using the proper tactics at the appropriate time, you fail.
skill - twitch gaming, whatever you want to call it. D2 pvp is fast paced, and most fights between good characters don't last more then 2-4 hits. If you can't evade and aim well with your character your not going to do well in pvp.
Haha im trying Seth.
BoE does remove and hinder PvP in ways that I think even Blizzard and PvM'ers could understand. They are essentially saying with BoE that you should know and understand the BoE system and how to use it. Now they removed weapon switch cause it was to "confusing" and it was something that only some people could use correctly apparently, I am wondering how they expect a person who couldn't comprehend hitting W to switch weapons and what good that could benefit them to comprehend putting on an item and not being able to trade it. Then again I am wondering how they expect those people to even install the game..but that is another issue. Point being Blizzard wants this game as simple and easy to play as possible, so if they are removing such systems as weapon switch why is it so that this much more complex system gets to stay?
It does hinder PvP cause now I can't really try gear on if it is BoE, I can trade for it, and find out it sucks then bam I just got ripped off cause this item sucks, were as now I can trade, equip...try it...don't like it...meh trade it away, now I am forced to sell it for probably 1/3 of its value in gold and be screwed. This also helps cookie cutter builds happen cause noone will experiment nearly as much with gear if it is BoE and would likely look online for the "best" build and go with that.
I think you maybe right with more people going with Cookie Cutter builds since people are less likely to experiment with the BoE equipment. Some of the BoE is likely going to be easy to determine if it is good to use since we can use our judgment. The problem is if the BoE has a special property or oskill or something than it becomes harder to tell if it is right for your character.
If the BoE items really are that powerful then yes you have a point, it won't matter what it is that you just traded for since it is most likely better then what you got. However it could give let's say +10 to min damage on BoE but my weapon does +15 to cold damage and I find out that my cold damage is better in the long run over the min damage and I should of gotten a +10 max damage weapon instead of the min damage. Now I am not really screwed and I can still PvP just as good as before, I just have to play a little smarter which there is nothing wrong with that. BoE doesn't favor experimentation as well as the d2 system did, having said that it does a way greater part for the trading and community so it is tolerable as there are 2 sides to Diablo and that is PvM AND PvP, they both need to be good to make Diablo great.
I have to say, great post. Feels like it bitch slapped the whole thread and the mood changed haha.
In WoW blizzard eliminated it by making virtually all gear bind on pick up.
Try to imagine a scenario where "top end" items in diablo are bind on equip. The Chinese farmers are going to have a bonanza.
But that is a secondary issue to the ones that concern me the most.
Overall though, I don't know what I was expecting from an internet forum. Maybe the slick design of diablo.fans website, and relative slow moving forum made me assume some kind of more sophisticated mature gamer.
To be quite frank, some of the PVE'ers commenting here are either
a) Complete idiots,
Are woefully ignorant about the intricacies of what made diablo work. (not surprising considering PVP'ers have always been the largest community of long-term players of Diablo 2 in its old age. Whether you know or care to admit this is up to you)
c) Are indeed well informed, but simply to selfish to acknowledge the issues raised here about irreversible BOE and what it will do to the entire fun of what Diablo PVP is about
Normally I would never start bad-mouthing people, but the sheer condacending attitude of PVE'ers in this thread has pushed me to it.
Completely ignore the issues raised, and try to address them with snarky comments like "Oh NO! Don't tell me Binding is going to force PVP'ers to actually play the game!", as if PVP'ers jumped into diablo, and went straight to dueling. Every PVP'er began as a PVE'er, enjoyed and appreciated the beautiful game of Diablo, and only began PVP'ing when the repetitive nature of PVE became boring. The other gamer's who had experienced and enjoyed the game and then got bored, simply quit the game and left. While others turned to PVP and kept supporting the Diablo community for years and years to come
Then you have these childish PVE'ers who arrogantly think the only voice that matters is theirs.
I'm starting to think you fall under that category? You have good points and so does everyone else. This is like arguing over abortion.
♣Strength and Honor♣
Wrong thread men !!!
Damn it, We are talking about BoE !!! not Switch and not PvP !!!
Please someone explain me WHAT PvP does with BoE !!! NOTHING !!!!!!!!
BoE is great for many reason and it's already confirmed so stop arguing meaningless arguments please. I will start to think few peoples here are brainless.
Um I clearly was talking about BoE, I was comparing it to Weapon switch which was just taken out of Diablo 3. If people can't comprehend how to hit W how are they expected to comprehend not being able to trade an item that is BoE?
BoE effects PvP cause now you no longer can put on any item on your character and test it out, you cannot free willingly trade for any item and trade it later down the road, it harms experimentation which is a part of PvP. It doesn't hinder PvP that drastically and I feel it aids the community economy greater then it hinders PvP so I have little issue with it, but to deny that it doesn't effect PvP is just being blind.
But I think all BoE will be very powerful, and you just have to plan considering your build and your strategy and well analysis the power of item to know if it's good, no need to test it... (ok, maybe if the power description was unclear like d2) But I think they will improve that... I hope...
♣Strength and Honor♣