Diablo 3 gets it's criticism because people expected to get something akin to Diablo 2... A game they would still be playing 10 years down the line but instead they got a game that was just ok... Sure, most of us come back for a few days when a patch hits to take a look but not many stay much longer than that...
Diablo 2 had multiple routes one could take to viably farm in the game be it key runs, torch runs, chaos runs, cave runs, cow runs, council gold runs, andy/mephy runs, baal runs... Every run different and rewarded a different type of loot. This in turn created build diversity in the game because certain builds were able to do certain types of runs better which in turn meant there was no longer just 1 or 2 items for every slot which trumped every other item in the game. This is just one of the many ways Diablo 2 does it better it also has better PvP, more freedom (allowing for player-run events such as the iron maiden game), the gear has more depth via a larger variety of stats, better player interaction, more depth to how loot dropped allowing trading to be possible etc.
What ultimately disappoints me the most about Diablo 3 is that Diablo 2 is 10+ years older and yet does almost everything better. Yes Diablo 2 is considered one of the best games ever made and so it may not be fair to compare Diablo 3 to it, but Diablo 3 is it's successor and therefore comparing the two and expecting Diablo 3 to live up to it's name is simply unavoidable. If it wasn't for the fact 99% of D2 players are bots/cheaters then even with the dated graphics and less-smooth gameplay I would choose to play D2 over D3 every time.
^This. I couldn't have said it better. Also bots have made there way into D3 with no consequences. (that I've heard of)
What ultimately disappoints me the most about Diablo 3 is that Diablo 2 is 10+ years older and yet does almost everything better.
That is extremely debatable. At the very least extremely subjective. In my opinion (and I played the hell out of Diablo 1+2!), with RoS Diablo 3 pulled ahead of D2 and since 2.1 Diablo 3 does almost everything better. The only things that I might consider to have been better about D2 were 1) runewords and 2) more stash space since I could put items on my two mule accounts. But gameplay-wise, loot-wise, and in every other imaginable way D3 is just miles ahead of D2 for me.
I think you're being quite hysterical in acting as though game design decisions that aren't to your taste are equivalent to a product being broken and unfit for sale.
Okay, I was using "broken" in the colloquial gamer sense. i.e. "broken" as in imbalanced, or designed poorly etc. Look, D3 is fun and has provided me with many hours of entertainment. But it has some glaringly poorly designed features, IMO. That's subjective I suppose, but that's the nature of criticism. And I'm going to criticise those features because I really want to the game to be better. It's got some huge potential that's being wasted.
To the other posters... RoS is not broken, in my opinion, and I have a hard time seeing how you can argue that the game is broken.
[...]
The game was broken because of the AH (everyone was playing the AH, not the game;
I'm not sure how in one sentence you can say that you can't say the game is broken, and then in another say it was broken. Someone could easily just say that the AH was not "broken". But anyway, I won't use that word if it causes people too much confusion. I'll just say the game currently still suffers from some very bad game design.
What ultimately disappoints me the most about Diablo 3 is that Diablo 2 is 10+ years older and yet does almost everything better.
That is extremely debatable. At the very least extremely subjective. In my opinion (and I played the hell out of Diablo 1+2!), with RoS Diablo 3 pulled ahead of D2 and since 2.1 Diablo 3 does almost everything better. The only things that I might consider to have been better about D2 were 1) runewords and 2) more stash space since I could put items on my two mule accounts. But gameplay-wise, loot-wise, and in every other imaginable way D3 is just miles ahead of D2 for me.
This x100. Nostalgia aside, the current build of D3 is superior to D2 overall.
Build diveristy in D2 was a myth. Go run T6 on D3 now, you have all the diversity you want because of one simple reason - its easy. D2 was significantly easier than D3 (although the current t6 now is probably as easy as d2), so you could run any build you want for the most part.
Diablo 3 gets it's criticism because people expected to get something akin to Diablo 2... A game they would still be playing 10 years down the line but instead they got a game that was just ok... Sure, most of us come back for a few days when a patch hits to take a look but not many stay much longer than that...
Diablo 2 had multiple routes one could take to viably farm in the game be it key runs, torch runs, chaos runs, cave runs, cow runs, council gold runs, andy/mephy runs, baal runs... Every run different and rewarded a different type of loot. This in turn created build diversity in the game because certain builds were able to do certain types of runs better which in turn meant there was no longer just 1 or 2 items for every slot which trumped every other item in the game. This is just one of the many ways Diablo 2 does it better it also has better PvP, more freedom (allowing for player-run events such as the iron maiden game), the gear has more depth via a larger variety of stats, better player interaction, more depth to how loot dropped allowing trading to be possible etc.
What ultimately disappoints me the most about Diablo 3 is that Diablo 2 is 10+ years older and yet does almost everything better. Yes Diablo 2 is considered one of the best games ever made and so it may not be fair to compare Diablo 3 to it, but Diablo 3 is it's successor and therefore comparing the two and expecting Diablo 3 to live up to it's name is simply unavoidable. If it wasn't for the fact 99% of D2 players are bots/cheaters then even with the dated graphics and less-smooth gameplay I would choose to play D2 over D3 every time.
First paragaraph is just personal opinion without any numbers or facts. As if there are hundreds of thousands of players playing d2 10 years after... It was full of bots since almost the very beginning. Many people do play D3 continuously but in today's market the competition is crazy and isometric ARPG's are not really mainstream anymore... It's easy to see why D2 was such a huge success given the state of the market and industry at the time.
Multiple routes one could take to viably farm in the game? Click on the spoiler button to see my comments about all the runs you listed.
-Key runs: Just choose a random character and farm keys... If you want to optimize then go for hammerdin? For a cheap build go for sorc because you don't need Enigma... And then what? Trade the keys? How is this a "viable" way to farm end game exactly? If there were no bots it would have been a lot harder to sell your keys for runes or whatever because remember, high runes are 99% duped. I don't see how farming keys is a viable way of farming in the end game... If you get your characters fully equipped just by farming keys then you are a really sad individual because it's the most boring shit ever and hardly rewarding.
-Torch runs: So, you build a UT smite pally (the cheapest torch farmer) and you farm some torches, then what? Wait for the perfect torch to drop which basically happens like never... Getting the gear for the UT smite pally is next to impossible without the bot economy since you need an LO rune and a 5 soc decent weapon like pb/ba/ea... And then a COH armor... Another HR that you will most likely never get without the bots and dupes. Anyway, this is just a way to farm torches but to do so you need a lot of keys and farm them to get organs etc, not really a viable way to get more good gear because it's only torches that might be good for you because your gear sucks and you will be waiting for that lottery win with a perfect torch so you can trade it.
-Chaos runs: As if this required a specific build... Get any well geared character and you can farm CS. Not to mention that a hammerdin will do better than all of your other characters anyway so i don't see how CS runs support your argument that it adds build diversity.
-Cave runs: Again, no specific build and hammerdin is still the best... Maybe lightning sorc with infi merc and all but still, how does this specific run supports build diversity? you could do it with any character if you had good gear. Also, the only reason why this run existed was because the pit had high ilvl mobs for some reason... That's a broken small piece of the game it's not really something to glorify because let's face it, a cave in act 1 has mobs with higher ilvl than the throne of destruction for an example, sounds stupid.
-Cow runs: No specific build i.e all builds work if you got the gear and hammerdin is probably still the best. Maybe poison necro was faster in cow clears but yeah... When they nerfed the cow level no one ran it anymore and really it doesn't support your argument of build diversity at all.
-Council gold runs: The first run other that torch runs that actually required special gear. Sure, gearing up a gold find barb + merc wasn't an easy task and this is actually a very nice aspect of the game that i liked. this is the only run from this list that supports your argument; It's a run that encouraged the use of a special build that utilizes certain things that no other build does.
-Andariel / Mephisto runs: Just normal magic find runs that are cheapest to execute with an MF wizard just because getting an Enigma is not easy especially if there were no bots and dupes. No specific build is required for these runs so no.
-Baal runs: Any character could destroy baal runs probably other than bone necros because of the magic immunes in wave 2. Hammerdins just clear wave 2 with holy bolt + merc iirc. Nothing specific here, this run does not encourage any specific build and does not increase diversity at all.
Every run is differnt and rewarded different type of loot? That's just false. The only runs that gave you specific loot were keys, torch and gold. One could argue that pit runs (you call it cave runs) can be considred as unique type of loot but not really, it's the same shit just with a very slightly higher chance to get high runes and certain blues / whites and charms.
So i don't see how this created build diversity because the only REQUIRED builds for effecient farming for a specific run was the gold find barb / UT smite pally (summon necro can replace the pally but is a lot more expensive to build) and then Hammerdin for everything else.
Once a build was figured out, there were indeed specific items that took over a slot and never got replaced. Just like in D3. I don't know where you are pulling this information from but try to change Dracul's grasp on your UT smite pally for an example... Nope.
Better pvp is something i can't argue with. Although, D2 pvp was not "good", the community and dedicated pvp players and theorycrafters made it good. The vanilla pvp they put in the game is actually very bland and has nothing interesting in it other than testing your gear and skills on other players and getting destroyed. The community then created a big amount of pvp builds and that contributed heavily to the longevity of the game. Also, pvp specific gear was in many cases even rarer than most pve gear which created a bigger incentive to farm more (or bot, or just buy).
I don't see how you can claim that D2 had a larger vareity of stats, especially after the introduction of legendary affixes and legendary gems into D3. In D2 there were countless useless stats that you never wanted on your gear. The actual "good" stats were usually shared across the board with all classes and builds. Melee builds required stats like crushing blow while caster builds required faster cast rate for an example. There is no diversity in this, it's almost always the same stats required for every melee (or should i say physical?) / caster build.
What "better player interaction" are you talking about? Spamming trade channels with "N SOJ O HRS" over and over again? Or getting spammed by bots, whispering you about the "LATEST GREATEST DEALS"... There was no player interaction in d2 other than the name of the games people created and then the noobish trade games. All the "real" trading was done on d2jsp and other forums and all the noobs were trading in crappy games, spamming their offer list over and over, repeatedly showing their crap gear to people only to realize that the one they are trying to trade with is a total noob... It's fun when you are 12 years old and are discovering the internet and interactions with people online but you can't expect a serious company like Blizzard to release a game today with such an environment that encourages bad interaction and let's not talk about the scammers.
I don't even know what you mean by "more depth to how loot dropped" but you are probably talking about certain monsters / areas having a higehr chance to drop certain items but all this information was only available on forum threads and websites, there was nothing of this information inside the game which basically means that a very high percentage of players were not even aware of dynamics like monster lvl and item lvl, etc... It's a useless, outdated system that encourages repeated runs of the same boss or area over and over, that's very primitive in terms of game design, i hope you can see that.
Trade being possible is indeed a big difference but if you can't see the reasoning behind BOA items in ROS then i don't know what else to tell you... In ROS you don't actually need trading and thank science that there's no open trading like in d2 because then people would jsut buy all of their gear with real money and that's it (just like in d2).
It took ages for D2 to become what it eventually did. Maybe you were too young but d2 also had overpowered builds and flavor of the patch builds. And in D2 it took even more time for Blizz to fix shit in relation to D3. There were certain periods were the game was relatively dead, only later to be revived by a patch and then forgotten again untill the next patch came out.
TLDR: You are talking out of a sense of nostalgia and to be honest, almost none of the points you raised in your post were true.
I don't see how you can claim that D2 had a larger vareity of stats, especially after the introduction of legendary affixes and legendary gems into D3. In D2 there were countless useless stats that you never wanted on your gear. The actual "good" stats were usually shared across the board with all classes and builds.
That's the easiest claim one can make. D2 had a larger variety of stats for a number of reasons. First of all it was being compared to D1. And in terms of itemization and item flavour, the worst day of D2 Classic beat the living fuck out of the very best day D1 + its Hellfire expansion.
how do you take this fight to D3? You take the best day of D2 and compare it to the worst day of D3. and D2 the underdog this time around ended up beating the fuck out of D3 as well. is that an unfair challenge?
OK lets look at the best day of D3 compared to the best day of D2.
D3 has been out since 2012, almost 3 years. and in that time D3 has been playing catch-up non stop. They are not blessing the players with new legendary gems and cool items, they are putting that shit back into the game after they deleted it all.
you do not delete all the runes and all the horadric cube recipes and all the jewels and let the players stew and fester for 2 fucking years, and then spoon feed them a few legendary gems and act as if you just re-invented the wheel....
Just because there were useless stats in D2 does not mean that the concept of MORE stats is worse than the concept of LESS. in fact the concept of
less stats has an especially negative effect on Diablo 3 because, "that's all players do".... they "hunt for items with stats on them"
Its a matter of perspective, the D3 team did not do good deleting crushing blow and deleting jewels and deleting the Enigma teleport weapon that everyone used...
They did BAD. why?
Because crushing blow was a IDEA of specialization and something other than the carbon copy bullshit of smart loot. it was an IDEA against 10 thousand yellow pieces of boring shit that are just mainstat/ vitality/ pick up radius/ armor over and over and over again to infinity....
Jewels were an IDEA of weapon augmentation.
Enigma is an IDEA of a wild wacky legendary item that allows a character to do something out of the ordinary, and that's what they are scrambling to put back into the game, the very IDEAS. because the IDEAS those items and gems represented were completely fucking eradicated in D3.
Ans that's exactly what should never have been removed in the first place. in fact those are the very first ideas that should have been strengthened and enhanced.
it does not mean that crushing blow is the missing piece of the puzzle and that "D3 sux" because it is absent. it does not mean that "crushing blow rulez!!"
The devs should have thought outside of the square...instead of focusing on what Crushing blow represented?
they had it in D2, then they deleted it in D3, then they put it back in...... then they deleted it again...........all the while nobody says a fucking word about the talisman system....its pure toilet paper....great job!
This is the discussion I wanted to bring out. I'm not going to try to defend my points, but keep up the discussion. All I wanted to say was that I tried to format and paragraph it, but for some reason it wouldn't work. It's possible because I typed it all on my phone in an hour. So who knows.
What ultimately disappoints me the most about Diablo 3 is that Diablo 2 is 10+ years older and yet does almost everything better.
That is extremely debatable. At the very least extremely subjective. In my opinion (and I played the hell out of Diablo 1+2!), with RoS Diablo 3 pulled ahead of D2 and since 2.1 Diablo 3 does almost everything better. The only things that I might consider to have been better about D2 were 1) runewords and 2) more stash space since I could put items on my two mule accounts. But gameplay-wise, loot-wise, and in every other imaginable way D3 is just miles ahead of D2 for me.
d2 allowed 8 players. d3 is a better game (coming from someone who didnt even like the concept of rune words and charms), but it definitely took major step backs from d2 in many key areas.
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That is extremely debatable. At the very least extremely subjective. In my opinion (and I played the hell out of Diablo 1+2!), with RoS Diablo 3 pulled ahead of D2 and since 2.1 Diablo 3 does almost everything better. The only things that I might consider to have been better about D2 were 1) runewords and 2) more stash space since I could put items on my two mule accounts. But gameplay-wise, loot-wise, and in every other imaginable way D3 is just miles ahead of D2 for me.
Okay, I was using "broken" in the colloquial gamer sense. i.e. "broken" as in imbalanced, or designed poorly etc. Look, D3 is fun and has provided me with many hours of entertainment. But it has some glaringly poorly designed features, IMO. That's subjective I suppose, but that's the nature of criticism. And I'm going to criticise those features because I really want to the game to be better. It's got some huge potential that's being wasted.
I'm not sure how in one sentence you can say that you can't say the game is broken, and then in another say it was broken. Someone could easily just say that the AH was not "broken". But anyway, I won't use that word if it causes people too much confusion. I'll just say the game currently still suffers from some very bad game design.
Build diveristy in D2 was a myth. Go run T6 on D3 now, you have all the diversity you want because of one simple reason - its easy. D2 was significantly easier than D3 (although the current t6 now is probably as easy as d2), so you could run any build you want for the most part.
First paragaraph is just personal opinion without any numbers or facts. As if there are hundreds of thousands of players playing d2 10 years after... It was full of bots since almost the very beginning. Many people do play D3 continuously but in today's market the competition is crazy and isometric ARPG's are not really mainstream anymore... It's easy to see why D2 was such a huge success given the state of the market and industry at the time.
Multiple routes one could take to viably farm in the game? Click on the spoiler button to see my comments about all the runs you listed.
-Key runs: Just choose a random character and farm keys... If you want to optimize then go for hammerdin? For a cheap build go for sorc because you don't need Enigma... And then what? Trade the keys? How is this a "viable" way to farm end game exactly? If there were no bots it would have been a lot harder to sell your keys for runes or whatever because remember, high runes are 99% duped. I don't see how farming keys is a viable way of farming in the end game... If you get your characters fully equipped just by farming keys then you are a really sad individual because it's the most boring shit ever and hardly rewarding.
-Torch runs: So, you build a UT smite pally (the cheapest torch farmer) and you farm some torches, then what? Wait for the perfect torch to drop which basically happens like never... Getting the gear for the UT smite pally is next to impossible without the bot economy since you need an LO rune and a 5 soc decent weapon like pb/ba/ea... And then a COH armor... Another HR that you will most likely never get without the bots and dupes. Anyway, this is just a way to farm torches but to do so you need a lot of keys and farm them to get organs etc, not really a viable way to get more good gear because it's only torches that might be good for you because your gear sucks and you will be waiting for that lottery win with a perfect torch so you can trade it.
-Chaos runs: As if this required a specific build... Get any well geared character and you can farm CS. Not to mention that a hammerdin will do better than all of your other characters anyway so i don't see how CS runs support your argument that it adds build diversity.
-Cave runs: Again, no specific build and hammerdin is still the best... Maybe lightning sorc with infi merc and all but still, how does this specific run supports build diversity? you could do it with any character if you had good gear. Also, the only reason why this run existed was because the pit had high ilvl mobs for some reason... That's a broken small piece of the game it's not really something to glorify because let's face it, a cave in act 1 has mobs with higher ilvl than the throne of destruction for an example, sounds stupid.
-Cow runs: No specific build i.e all builds work if you got the gear and hammerdin is probably still the best. Maybe poison necro was faster in cow clears but yeah... When they nerfed the cow level no one ran it anymore and really it doesn't support your argument of build diversity at all.
-Council gold runs: The first run other that torch runs that actually required special gear. Sure, gearing up a gold find barb + merc wasn't an easy task and this is actually a very nice aspect of the game that i liked. this is the only run from this list that supports your argument; It's a run that encouraged the use of a special build that utilizes certain things that no other build does.
-Andariel / Mephisto runs: Just normal magic find runs that are cheapest to execute with an MF wizard just because getting an Enigma is not easy especially if there were no bots and dupes. No specific build is required for these runs so no.
-Baal runs: Any character could destroy baal runs probably other than bone necros because of the magic immunes in wave 2. Hammerdins just clear wave 2 with holy bolt + merc iirc. Nothing specific here, this run does not encourage any specific build and does not increase diversity at all.
Every run is differnt and rewarded different type of loot? That's just false. The only runs that gave you specific loot were keys, torch and gold. One could argue that pit runs (you call it cave runs) can be considred as unique type of loot but not really, it's the same shit just with a very slightly higher chance to get high runes and certain blues / whites and charms.
So i don't see how this created build diversity because the only REQUIRED builds for effecient farming for a specific run was the gold find barb / UT smite pally (summon necro can replace the pally but is a lot more expensive to build) and then Hammerdin for everything else.
Once a build was figured out, there were indeed specific items that took over a slot and never got replaced. Just like in D3. I don't know where you are pulling this information from but try to change Dracul's grasp on your UT smite pally for an example... Nope.
Better pvp is something i can't argue with. Although, D2 pvp was not "good", the community and dedicated pvp players and theorycrafters made it good. The vanilla pvp they put in the game is actually very bland and has nothing interesting in it other than testing your gear and skills on other players and getting destroyed. The community then created a big amount of pvp builds and that contributed heavily to the longevity of the game. Also, pvp specific gear was in many cases even rarer than most pve gear which created a bigger incentive to farm more (or bot, or just buy).
I don't see how you can claim that D2 had a larger vareity of stats, especially after the introduction of legendary affixes and legendary gems into D3. In D2 there were countless useless stats that you never wanted on your gear. The actual "good" stats were usually shared across the board with all classes and builds. Melee builds required stats like crushing blow while caster builds required faster cast rate for an example. There is no diversity in this, it's almost always the same stats required for every melee (or should i say physical?) / caster build.
What "better player interaction" are you talking about? Spamming trade channels with "N SOJ O HRS" over and over again? Or getting spammed by bots, whispering you about the "LATEST GREATEST DEALS"... There was no player interaction in d2 other than the name of the games people created and then the noobish trade games. All the "real" trading was done on d2jsp and other forums and all the noobs were trading in crappy games, spamming their offer list over and over, repeatedly showing their crap gear to people only to realize that the one they are trying to trade with is a total noob... It's fun when you are 12 years old and are discovering the internet and interactions with people online but you can't expect a serious company like Blizzard to release a game today with such an environment that encourages bad interaction and let's not talk about the scammers.
I don't even know what you mean by "more depth to how loot dropped" but you are probably talking about certain monsters / areas having a higehr chance to drop certain items but all this information was only available on forum threads and websites, there was nothing of this information inside the game which basically means that a very high percentage of players were not even aware of dynamics like monster lvl and item lvl, etc... It's a useless, outdated system that encourages repeated runs of the same boss or area over and over, that's very primitive in terms of game design, i hope you can see that.
Trade being possible is indeed a big difference but if you can't see the reasoning behind BOA items in ROS then i don't know what else to tell you... In ROS you don't actually need trading and thank science that there's no open trading like in d2 because then people would jsut buy all of their gear with real money and that's it (just like in d2).
It took ages for D2 to become what it eventually did. Maybe you were too young but d2 also had overpowered builds and flavor of the patch builds. And in D2 it took even more time for Blizz to fix shit in relation to D3. There were certain periods were the game was relatively dead, only later to be revived by a patch and then forgotten again untill the next patch came out.
TLDR: You are talking out of a sense of nostalgia and to be honest, almost none of the points you raised in your post were true.
That's the easiest claim one can make. D2 had a larger variety of stats for a number of reasons. First of all it was being compared to D1. And in terms of itemization and item flavour, the worst day of D2 Classic beat the living fuck out of the very best day D1 + its Hellfire expansion.
how do you take this fight to D3? You take the best day of D2 and compare it to the worst day of D3. and D2 the underdog this time around ended up beating the fuck out of D3 as well. is that an unfair challenge?
OK lets look at the best day of D3 compared to the best day of D2.
D3 has been out since 2012, almost 3 years. and in that time D3 has been playing catch-up non stop. They are not blessing the players with new legendary gems and cool items, they are putting that shit back into the game after they deleted it all.
you do not delete all the runes and all the horadric cube recipes and all the jewels and let the players stew and fester for 2 fucking years, and then spoon feed them a few legendary gems and act as if you just re-invented the wheel....
Just because there were useless stats in D2 does not mean that the concept of MORE stats is worse than the concept of LESS. in fact the concept of
less stats has an especially negative effect on Diablo 3 because, "that's all players do".... they "hunt for items with stats on them"
Its a matter of perspective, the D3 team did not do good deleting crushing blow and deleting jewels and deleting the Enigma teleport weapon that everyone used...
They did BAD. why?
Because crushing blow was a IDEA of specialization and something other than the carbon copy bullshit of smart loot. it was an IDEA against 10 thousand yellow pieces of boring shit that are just mainstat/ vitality/ pick up radius/ armor over and over and over again to infinity....
Jewels were an IDEA of weapon augmentation.
Enigma is an IDEA of a wild wacky legendary item that allows a character to do something out of the ordinary, and that's what they are scrambling to put back into the game, the very IDEAS. because the IDEAS those items and gems represented were completely fucking eradicated in D3.
Ans that's exactly what should never have been removed in the first place. in fact those are the very first ideas that should have been strengthened and enhanced.
it does not mean that crushing blow is the missing piece of the puzzle and that "D3 sux" because it is absent. it does not mean that "crushing blow rulez!!"
The devs should have thought outside of the square...instead of focusing on what Crushing blow represented?
they had it in D2, then they deleted it in D3, then they put it back in...... then they deleted it again...........all the while nobody says a fucking word about the talisman system....its pure toilet paper....great job!
2. More useful things, im tired of seeing poison ele, pole arms, and daggers being useless.
3. Passive Skill Tree, PoE fan boy here, and if D3 had some sort of ACTUAL skill tree...mmmm RPG for days.
4. Campaign Mode = Joke, completely beat story and stay in adventure mode forever? No. We need more variety.
5. PvP. We simply need some sort of PvP system then the one shot fest we have today.
This is the discussion I wanted to bring out. I'm not going to try to defend my points, but keep up the discussion. All I wanted to say was that I tried to format and paragraph it, but for some reason it wouldn't work. It's possible because I typed it all on my phone in an hour. So who knows.