We got your point Shurgosa. It's just not interesting in the present discussion, as you are asking for a different game entirely. Here, we are talking about a new type of affix and its immediate consequence on diablo 3's current iteration of patch 2.4. We are not talking about what Diablo 3 could have been, or failed to be.
Don't get me (us) wrong, we would like to make Diablo 3 as exciting as it could be, and we all have wild ideas on how to achieve that. But this is beyond the point here. And definitely comparing Diablo 3 to Wow is off-topic. Feel free to create your own topic on these lines, but I think we should not discuss these further here.
Whatever the itemization problems that diablo may have, the new type of affix seems to go into the right direction (assuming proper balancing). Quinn says it is not. Wyatt, and most of us here, after thinking it through, think that it is. That is all there is to it.
That is correct. Thank you. We are talking about a new affix (the boost to % damage..) and its immediate consequence on D3 as of 2.4
we are not talking about what possibly could be or failed to be. That is the issue. Nobody of note IS talking about that.
instead the devs take a game, D3 version 2.3, take a few items from that game and give them a new stat that boosts skill damage by 100%.
and then because before they happened to add that boost, there was basically nothing at all, they think that they have "added to the game". Or they think that having a few items that boost damage is better than just one. and that adding it is the right way to go without question.
Then when Quin comes along and points out one of several reasons why this is not correct when viewing the issue in an abstract way, nobody understands. they have already convinced themselves that 2 items that do that is an improvement over 1. then they are unable to think any further.
who in their right mind would say "don't add items that boost skill damage..." I DARE you to answer this question honestly. WHO would say "dont do it. hmm?
I'll tell you who. The person who can want more from the game. More for it than "slap some damage on an item and the players will clap and cheer in January."
That's who would say don't do it. The smart and passionate ones. The ones who look at D3 and see that it could be better, and can expand upon this notion in a multitude of ways.
Diablo 3 is made by people who say "yea put it in, and any of the concerns brought up we can just say to the players "we feel you, we get you, we understand......" and that will handle all of the sloppy remainder of our careless "improvement"
So... Let's see how the comparison should have been:
Diablo 3 PvE compared to Heartstone SOLO ADVENTURES and Starcraft SINGLE PLAYER CAMPAIGN, that way it would have made sense!
Comparing a PvE game with a PvP game makes no sense.
- Of course in a PvP game there is NO PERFECT BUILD (if it is decently programmed) because the metagame (the way players study the game and prepare to counter the most prominent builds/decks/ways to play) continues to shift or cycle.
- In a PvE game the metagame is pretty much fixed, once you find the most effective way to deal with the computer, it is that, unless new factors are brought in (like an update of the AI, of skills or of balance). Being it even SLIGHTLY better than others or exceedingle better, doesn't matter.
Now the cmparison with WoW.
- No sense in comparing Diablo 3 to WoW PvP (see above).
- Comparing to Raid WoW:
In WoW the classes have become pretty much interchangeable and the builds too. Everything is pretty much doable as long as you have 2-4 tanks + 3-5 healers and 5-16 DpS in your raid. Even in that "chaos" having the widest range of character is generally the "best way to go" because you have the widest variety of buffs and the right tool for every sitation.
But let's see the itemization (I stopped playing at Wrath of the Lich King expansion) The itemization was pretty much at the levels of Diablo 3 Vanilla. You looked for the same stats all the time and the items handed them to you every time because the items had fixed stats. All you had to do was adapt your skills to the effects of the Tier Set you were using. This means pretty much having the same build for every spec.
Ok, some of the classes benefited from multiple builds, but it as pretty much because they had different possible roles, for example the Druid could be a tank, a healer, a melee DpS or a Ranged DpS, but for every one of those roles there was like just one "most" effective build, with very small variations.
Now I don't know how it evolved with Pandaria, Warlords and the upcoming Legion, but I don't think it will be much different.
About the raid strategies.
Raid bosses behaviour is dependent on how the AI is programmed and if you stretch the term of "best build" then there are very few strategies used to kill a boss and most raid groups stick to those, as much as Diablo 3 stick to a single build that has the best performances.
So...
Now please... Can we return to the main topic?
We never left the main topic, the main topic is items are boring, what could be fun?
you and others around you simply strive to ignore any discussion or claim it false if it happens to not have anything to do with items in a single player game that is of the same genre.....
the main topic is that items and the players choosing between them is becoming stale and automatic and flavorless....just like how your vision of being locked in Starcraft single player vs a hodge podge unchanging basic card dealing Innkeeper....would be stale and thankfully, unlike you are prepared to accept, the entire rest of both of those games exist and are immediately and forever playable and enjoyable.....
I'm sorry that you cannot see the issue for what it is and think outside the square and apply what you think about to potential solutions
So far in this thread I have heard:
-We cant use anything that has to do with PVP, to circumvent the issue,
-We can use games if they are a different genre, to circumvent the issue,
-Wyatt Cheng "knows more about it" than Quin
and
-certain players don't see and issue, and so there is no issue...
It's really heartbreaking to be honest...especially when in your next paragraph you look at a tiny cross section in WoW, the items, and say "The itemization was pretty much at the levels of Diablo 3 Vanilla" are you admitting that Diablo 3 is doing OK if it compares to a small slice of a small portion of a different game? or is the comparison void because "PeeVeePee" ?
Not to mention you're wrong anyway... items in Wow had many occurrences in its item landscape that were WAY more interesting, situation and unique than Diablo 3 Vanilla, reforging came and went, items were continuously added to the game professions yielded wild and wacky contraptions etc,etc....
High end items had interesting special powers, giving you creative boosts to certain situations....
..........OH but lets ignore all of that. and then lets say something like "oh its a different genre / game / it's PVP.....yes that's a good line of reasoning..."
lets look at a cross section of a several year old game, ignore everything around it, including the flair and the actual interesting features of items specifically....then come up with an excuse that seems to make sense....its an RPG.......not an ARPG. there that will do. it has subscribers.....
That should justify Diablo 3 items.
What's next? We cant look anywhere for examples unless the game begins with the letter D?
My god, what happened to this place....
There is a reason terran is the most played race and had the highest win percentage for most of brood wars later years, marine and marine micro was far too strong
grim patron had over a 70% win rate before the nerf
RMP was much the same, it had over a 65% win rate against the field at it's peak.
I was in death and taxes, but please do school me on how high end raiding works in wow. We needed specific groups of healers dps and the like for each boss encounter. By the time people at your level got around to doing naxx and the like it was nerfed into the ground and a potato could complete.
In post # 98 I say that there are no "best" cards or units in hearthstone and in Starcraft. What this means in the scope of the arguement set by the idea Quin put forth, that choice seemingly does not exist when one item shoves all others into the instant garbage bin because it is so much more powerful. I'm sorry you did not understand this at first and I fear we have gone off on a tangent far away from where it originated.
The basis of this argument in this thread is the overwhelming and instant selection of one item that has had 100% damage slopped onto it, that 100% being a ball park figure.
RMP does not fall into that category. it is not auto chosen, nor is patron warrior, nor is any blend of units or even races in Starcraft, nor is any mix of classes automatically chosen as the best in WoW when raiding or during PVP. This is simply not the case. They are not auto chosen and they are not auto win. what that means is across a span of time things will change, certain skills or certain mixtures will shine from fight to fight. A weapon that boosts your damage of a skill from 0% to 100% is an auto win, and in Diablo 3's case i sure does not seem like in due time things will change....
Within the context of this argument put forth by Quin and the staggering boost in bonus damage driving all other items into complete obsolescence these new items are auto win.
in Diablo 3 weapons like this will be auto chosen and sadly the entire game has proven that this is the model that they are happy with.
Lacunis are auto chosen, end game set pieces are auto chosen, trifecta jewelry is auto chosen, furnaces and F-R Rings are auto chosen, SMKs are auto chosen. Mempos are auto chosen, as are witching hours. A sad pile of items is auto chosen for a short list of sad reasons. They are "auto desired" and auto shoveled down the players throats by developers who incessantly relax the drop rates on everything imaginable....
this is not the case with RMP,
this is not the case with marines
and it is ESPECIALLY not the case with any hearthstone cards because you do not even know what cards are going to be drawn from game to game. Even the most powerful cards might arrive in your hand RIGHT on curve and playing them in that particular situation might mean their complete waste and your assured demise. just last night I played Ragnaros into an empty board and lost the game because of it.
There will seemingly never be a case where you equipped a weapon with to "much damage to a skill" and it assured your demise,
also you will never be in a situation were equipping an item that boosted damage to a skill hinder your progress or assured your demise,
you wont ever be in a position where using items in D3 that "boosts all your damage" is the wrong thing to do.
the goal in D3 is boost your damage boost your damage boost your damage.
the goal in Hearthstone is not build a patron deck, build a patron deck, build a patron deck
the goal in WoW arena is not "click on RMP and win the game
the goal in Startcraft is not create marines until you win the game.
the goal in many games is not so clearly defined. And That's a good thing. but in D3 you have nothing but unflinching and automated definition.
That's a bad thing.
This is the elaborate reply to explain why mentioning the things that you did does not even remotely prove that mathematical superiority is an unavoidable outcome, in games. Even though you are correct about how strong they are and how reputable. And you identify that they are very successful, to the point where they are absolutely nerfed into oblivion as was the case of the grim patron charging warrior.....even in that ultra extreme case, the success rate of grim patron was absolutely peanuts compared to choosing a weapon that boosts your skill damage 100% vs one that boost it 0%. Within the context of this debate the points you raise no matter how accurate, prove and explain virtually nothing.
Many notable players and figureheads love to echo the statement about how everything in accordance with their character can be "mathed out" and a final solution is waiting to be found and copied...but they all so often fail to see the bigger picture of the game in question. they simply refuse to acknowledge the staggering list of nuances that fly the complete opposite direction of their theory. Even some of the very top end DPS hunters to ever walk planet earth have risked making that claim casually in discussion. I suppose they were correct back on the podcasts upon which they made their claims that when a profession might provide you even a single point of dexterity or agility that would lend itself to even one single % more damage in a parse, the claim was made within the scope of that hunters DPS.
Outside of that scope existed all the variables of the whole game and an exhaustive list of measures of success, some that had absolutely nothing to do with damage at all....certainly this hunter was aware that they are "only talking about" their class or their damage or the damage of the equation of the game. He must have been....only a fool would think with such a closed mind...
Unfortunately In D3 the damage equation IS the game, or at least in contrast to WoW a hilariously over-sized portion of the intrigue pie....
And I don't even raid at all, I never did anything beyond a handful of public dungeons for some welfare set of armor penetration pieces from Dalaran...
Why bother? anything I type in reply you're just going to say "It's horrible.." and "you are glad I'm not working on D3 haha..."
The pvp in your head is a train-wreck.
The IDEA of pvp as it covers decades of gaming and spans countless fan-bases and organizations and teams and genres of games is not.
PVP in D3 could be anything they imagine it to be, and instead they imagine it to be nothing at all. Just 4 players in brawling room hitting each-other. Did not even put so much as a a fucking score board up for Christ's sake. Because your version of PVP is a train-wreck and their attempted version was an unpolished log of my shit, does not even tarnish one molecule of the globe spanning Idea of Players competing with other players. an idea that their other games took and ran to the end zone for points.
And as far as the pathetic idea they are gearing up for next year, this putting a few hundred % damage of a skill on a handful of items and calling it a day and patting themselves on the back over it...well....
The bulk of the player base seems to think this is wonderful added content everyone should be thankful for so when they just roll it out as it is to please the masses and ignore Quin's video you will know that its just par for the course.
Frankly, I can't really think of any other game where this would be different. There're always top-builds. Tried being in the tops. Boring. Staying in the 'gray zone' ever since for fun and embracing all varieties of builds :3 Quite new to d3, but not gonna change my attitude here. And tops seem to be occupied by bots in d3 anyway. Don't think they care about variety. Casual players and new-comers have got much choice here so far.
OK so. None of this is a personal attack against you....but here it is:
MANY games do not suffer from this disease of "best build"
Starcraft did not have best units......Hearthstone does not have best cards........and Wow does not have a best arena or raid composition.
You can't compare these with diablo. Starcraft is a strategy game: you adapt to your opponent. If your opponent does strictly the same thing all the time, you will find one best way to beat him (e.g. in the campaign).
Hearthstone's "campaign" mode suffers from the very same thing: for every boss, you have one best deck to defeat it.
yes you can compare the two games despite them being different genres.
NO! You can not compare those games. Those 3 are PVP games. D3 is not a PVP game. That's a HUGE difference.
PvP has an ever shifting metagame (as long as balance is not utter shit). When the meta is A then people will try to counter it with B, which gets countered by C, which gets countered by A again. And so on. D3 is a PvE game! There are no counters! It's like WoW raiding but without the predefined specs with their predefined dps rotations and their predefined dropped equip. And this is also the reason why balance is way harder in D3 than in WoW pve. The reason why there are mostly no predefined raid compositions is simply that balancing WoW is IMMENSLY easier. And I say mostly because in times where balance was not that good, there WERE those best raidgrps!
Yes thank you for agreeing with me in a roundabout way. D3 has no shifting meta game and there are no counters.
Diablo 3 is as deep as "damage counters life bars". This unfortunate outcome dictates that weapons need only to help drain those life bars and nothing more. skills need only to apply damage, there need only be one sole type of damage and hell lets make it so for the most part damage is added via a percent. its just simplicity feeding the mouth of simplicity. To some people this is the best that an Action RPG can hope for. those people are just....not smart enough to think outside the square.
It's unfortunate you cannot see any other far flung ideas for what they are and draw from them and use them for leverage to make Diablo 3 better than what it is, The way many people assumed that the professionals in California would have done in 2012......
It's unfortunate you simply lack the ability to see what elements of one game can aid the elements of another when I give you such beginner examples like Deus Ex.
its unfortunate that you think because 2 games belong to different genres or are split between PvP and PvE, you cannot borrow elements from one or the other to make one or the other better....its really unfortunate, because that's how some of the best games are made.
There was a time when real time strategy games did not even have numbers or stats of any kind. and were not PVP at all. Numbers and stats and PVP centric game play that appeared in other genres back in the mid 80s.......but lets keep it at a beginner level for the time being shall we? No need to wrestle with such a blasphemous statement that the numbers and unit stats in a game from one genre originated from a different one.......
It seems some people are just hell bent on dictating which genres are which and deciding which aspects of game play belong to one and not the other. I just want D3 weapons and items to be more interesting instead of less so, and don't really care where the inspiration comes from. One would hope it came from the other games their company is working on but apparently they can only borrow the shitty parts of WoW and none of the good....
When I happened to use them to describe elements of roleplaying/strategy games that incite discussion and competition and learning and curiosity and specialization. Five things that Diablo 3, weapons and items in particular, seem to cheerfully lack......
Don't forget that most of the competitive maps in sc2 are made not by blizzard for a looooooong time now. WoW 3 team arena had easily over the first 6+ seasons always something like 1-2 combos which dominated. In hearthstone a lot of the cards which get "balanced" are in most cases outright gutted and nearly unplayable. Oh and some cards not top of the game? Never looked at dr.boom, ragi or sylvanas who somehow are always a good pickup for most decks?
Too busy watching videos of those cards basically being thrown in the trash or causing flat out losses.....
Videos and plays are out there having 1 mana creatures be stolen by sylvanas and hit by rag. "top end powers" as you say wasted on nothing, by cunning players and crazy luck. LAST NIGHT I was coming back from a loss, played Rag and because I did not anticipate the correct paladin secret Rag caused me to lose the game. I would have won without him. Dr boom is WIDELY regarded as the very best 7 mana creature in the game. and who knows if you will draw him, who knows if his bombs will hit the desired target who knows if the guy has a SW:death or a BG Hunter...and you just threw that card away or luck stole the win.
the discussion we are now having RIGHT NOW will never stop in hearthstone and it will never happen in Diablo 3 items. some players are OK with this and some are just beside themselves with confusion over the sheer waste of potential on display.
Frankly, I can't really think of any other game where this would be different. There're always top-builds. Tried being in the tops. Boring. Staying in the 'gray zone' ever since for fun and embracing all varieties of builds :3 Quite new to d3, but not gonna change my attitude here. And tops seem to be occupied by bots in d3 anyway. Don't think they care about variety. Casual players and new-comers have got much choice here so far.
OK so. None of this is a personal attack against you....but here it is:
MANY games do not suffer from this disease of "best build"
Starcraft did not have best units......Hearthstone does not have best cards........and Wow does not have a best arena or raid composition.
Starcraft - Terrain, specifically marines. Hearthstone - Grim patron Wow arena - changes with each season, but rmp has always been one of the best if not the best 3's team. lock/druid in season 2, mage rogue season 1 and 3. Wow raids - whatever the top guild uses to clear content before it's nerfed into a oblivion for the average player.
there is always, always an optimal strategy for any given game, if you think there isn't then you just dont know the game.
You lack game theory knowledge and game design knowledge, you're ranting and dont know why
there are PILES of units that counter marines. Units that marines cannot even do damage to. I'm not going to list them you can go look them up.
There are LOADS of cards that flat out destroy the attempted building of a brawler attack. cards that clear the whole board and cards that silenced the former charge mechanic of the Warsong Commander. cards that taunt incessantly, cards that steal units etc....
there are COUNTLESS examples of matches and skill combos and chance happenings were RMP was absolutely crushed and if it is so OP as you state, no other arena comp would have existed.....many did and despite the intense reliability of RMP, many many times for many many reasons it was toppled over like a wet paper towel.
WoW raids are so long and so story rich that I cant even begin to explain it to you. you think that everything is just a carbon copy of the worlds best guild at the moment and you simply haven't had the discussions about how varied the game can actually be, situations exist within the GM sculpted raid environments where classes one would not even think to use as a tank become viable options including druids , rogues and warlocks among probably many more.
discussions raged on over the inclusion of individual skill points and abilities and probably continue to rage. combat logs post wipe will be studied for hours on end by an endless stream of competitive players.....so...pretty hilarious for you to attempt to summarize wow raiding into "just copy the top dudes.....
and again......if its such a bad feature in WoW, if you even were correct.....which you are not....
Why then is Diablo 3 just click skills in town and dress like everyone else seen as a feature of convenience?
Raid strategies have already been an endless discussion, that obviously you are unaware of....
Clicking Diablo 3 items that grant +150% damage are not and endless discussion have not been and probably never will be.....
There are no counters to a higher damage percentage, to the same magnitude as there are counters to cards in hearthstone or units in Starcraft or comps in WoW arena. in fact one has to pretty much bend the preaking point to find such a thought provoking counter, with ideas that you have to sacrifice some SSS damage in order to be able to cast it more often. but this idea should be EVERYWHERE, and its hardly in trace amounts.......
but please continue teaching me about game theory. I cant wait. lol..
Frankly, I can't really think of any other game where this would be different. There're always top-builds. Tried being in the tops. Boring. Staying in the 'gray zone' ever since for fun and embracing all varieties of builds :3 Quite new to d3, but not gonna change my attitude here. And tops seem to be occupied by bots in d3 anyway. Don't think they care about variety. Casual players and new-comers have got much choice here so far.
OK so. None of this is a personal attack against you....but here it is:
MANY games do not suffer from this disease of "best build"
Starcraft did not have best units......Hearthstone does not have best cards........and Wow does not have a best arena or raid composition.
You can't compare these with diablo. Starcraft is a strategy game: you adapt to your opponent. If your opponent does strictly the same thing all the time, you will find one best way to beat him (e.g. in the campaign).
Hearthstone's "campaign" mode suffers from the very same thing: for every boss, you have one best deck to defeat it.
yes you can compare the two games despite them being different genres. why then can programmers mix the elements of first person shooters and roleplaying games at all? why did they make so many guns in borderlands? why is Deus Ex even a thing? why are there classes in Team Fortress classic? Isn't there a law against mixing genres? what good can mixing genres even do? why does destiny and call of duty and modern warfare and all that shit have "loadouts and ranks and stats and experience and levels? how was that possible?
why do situations where the Hearthstone AI does the exact same thing every time reinforce your argument and destroy mine when the situation you describe is hardly even possible without being able to choose what cards both you and him will draw? why is that?
In the case of starcrafts campaign, you may coast through campaign mode and find the AI doing the same thing over and over again....
But then you have to ignore the entire player vs player portion of the game, the portion upon which the legacy of the game was built. why the hell would you do that? why would you not see the good portion of the whole game as you state exactly "adapt to your opponent" why?
Why ignore the decade spanning legacy of starcraft PVP and latch on to the short comings of its AI????
and yet.... when you fight the same brain dead enemies in D3 year in year out....thats perfectly OK? why?
Frankly, I can't really think of any other game where this would be different. There're always top-builds. Tried being in the tops. Boring. Staying in the 'gray zone' ever since for fun and embracing all varieties of builds :3 Quite new to d3, but not gonna change my attitude here. And tops seem to be occupied by bots in d3 anyway. Don't think they care about variety. Casual players and new-comers have got much choice here so far.
OK so. None of this is a personal attack against you....but here it is:
MANY games do not suffer from this disease of "best build"
Starcraft did not have best units......Hearthstone does not have best cards........and Wow does not have a best arena or raid composition.
As you examine this idea that the things you hope to capitalize on change from moment to moment, you see that these games "run themselves", and they surge forward and remain popular and develop into professional past times. and they command floorspace at conventions for intrigued players and audience members. You can see where D3 falls short.
D3 has no "eureka" moments. you just plod forward like a fucking moron searching for green percentages instead of red ones, delivered in the most boring way possible. Trifecta or +damage. I'd know I was that fucking moron and I will be that moron again when the patch finally hits. I'll play the game for a bit and realize its just more of the same. its as satisfying as sucking the salt of a chicken mcnugget and throwing it away.
Wyatt Cheng fails to see the bigger picture.
Here is a quote from his write up:
---------------------
"I understand Quin's critique and totally get where he's coming from. Putting large skill bonuses means you can't cube the item and reconfigure them around as much."
----------------------
So Wyatt understands that finding and choosing a piece with more damage automatically reduces the average appeal of all other items in the game for a player. Then he says this:
----------------------------
If we were to increase the damage of base skills and lower legendary item +%s it gets the number where it needs to be for that configuration, but also affects every other configuration.
----------------------------
What he is doing is alluding to one specific suggestion of Quins, shifting damage off of individual items and placing them on skills.
Then his is pointing out a flaw laced within that niche solution and using the flaw to ignore the ENTIRE basis of the fucking complaint.
THEN HE JUSTIFIES THIS IDIOTIC SHUTDOWN BY SAYING THIS:
Having lots of toys to play around with and configure in different ways is GREAT. We love that. But what will inevitably happen is if any one of those builds is 10% better than the others you don't get an increase the variety, you end up with a decrease in variety due to there being a "right answer".
this is the part everyone needs to pay attention to. Wyatt Cheng said this. here I'll quote it a few times so its painfully clear.
having lots of toys to play around with and configure in different ways is GREAT.
having lots of toys to play around with and configure in different ways is GREAT.
having lots of toys to play around with and configure in different ways is GREAT.
But what will inevitably happen is if any one of those builds is 10% better
But what will inevitably happen is if any one of those builds is 10% better
But what will inevitably happen is if any one of those builds is 10% better
you don't get an increase the variety, you end up with a decrease in variety due to there being a "right answer".
you don't get an increase the variety, you end up with a decrease in variety due to there being a "right answer".
you don't get an increase the variety, you end up with a decrease in variety due to there being a "right answer".
Yep. And that's exactly the issue that Quin was trying to point out in his video
and exactly what many MANY have said in the Official general discussion forum for years.
and exactly what should have been mined from the players feed back before the fucking game was released. especially when its the other games from their stable that taught us this concept of "no best build"
When a THING is better than the rest of your THINGS.........you end up with a decrease in variety due to there being a "right answer".
I've read his post over and over and over again.
I've studied the sentences and thought heavily on how the weapons and the builds interact as he wanders around Raekors and the Fury of the Vanquished Peak weapon and try as I might its nothing more than a laughably shallow and worthless deflection of the bigger issue that they refuse to acknowledge.
When players see bigger damage, they grab it and everything else in that moment and forever forward, is obsolete. It's a plague of a disease that destroys the potential of Diablo 3, while a laundry list of other games are virtually immune. and they're being created just down the fucking hallway.
Every blue post is the same, just little buzzwords meant to invoke a sense of compassion in the heart of the angry critic.
And thanks for letting us swear on this forum, its very refreshing.
He is right. Using a skill should not require us to wear a certain item that unlocks its damage. End of story.
If this was the argument, I get it.
But Quin argues that because the skill damage is on the item it means you HAVE TO EQUIP IT, which is simply false.
If the helm had 200% WoL damage, it would be a 20% increase to the 1000% bonus from Sunwuko, and a 200% pure damage increase without the proc. It is solid, but it is not a must.
so what are you saying exactly? that as long as there are a handful of items, and not just precisely 1, that boost a skills damage by a percent, that its OK for the devs to add a few more because us players have a pile of items to choose from?
Don't you think the game can do a bit better than just plop on a skill damage percent every few months?
Don't worry they wouldn't let the game get to adventurous. The poor widdle playerbase might get scared and confused !!! they might have to look at a calculator. Oh my word, the HORROR!
The thing is, you insisting that the game cater to your simplified and carefree attitude mandates that anyone who wants something more is sucking rocks.
If players who actually care about the overall quality and depth of the game got their way and items and skills were made more interesting, You and your average kind would still be free to ignore all that you please and piddle around in whatever harmless difficulty you desire.
And for the record you and I are probably about the same distance in grift level, if anything you probably have made it even farther than me.
The notable difference is I want the game to encapsulate and cater to more driven players than I. I want the game to be a better version of itself, not just a better half hour for me to squish some zombies like a 5 year old laughing at the TV......I care about the quality of the game, and the interest level of it's items. its too bad blizzard caters to a globe spanning cluster of players who don't really care...
What do you think? I found myself nodding through the entire video.
I found myself shaking my head in dismay. Quin now after probably an untold number of nice videos and heaps of praise and fun little Blizzcon interviews, agrees with the mountain of frustration piled over at the official general discussion forum....its really sad its taken so long. He is only reciting what was painfully obvious years ago.
It's sad to see situations like this, Players that are held in high regard and who hold the game in high regard for insane lengths of time, notice a really goddamn fucking lame issue and then at that moment, so many players are like:
"oooh hey!! he's right!" that thing he noticed IS an issue, blizz please listen to him!!!! fellas lets rally behind that streamer over there!
To summarize the situation in the most diplomatic way, is to just make the exact same mistake Quin is making right now and all the rest of the pro players and all the moderators and all the streamers have made....they cushion the blows for the game. they dismiss its short comings and they shine a light on its strong points.
we've all watched hundreds of videos of noted players on youtube and if you watch long enough the same thing always happens, they let out a long sigh and their eyes drift downward and they mumble something about how maybe perhaps one day items might not fucking blow....I've seen it time and time again...just the most subtle and impotent statement ever about something that's...y'know kind of important to Diablo? items? and their cool interaction with skills? yes?
So now when people hear about the game being "rotten to the core" and the chorus-line of incoming improvements been chewed to bits over in General Discussion, i guess Quin hopefully now understands the environment over more so than he did before coming to this mighty revelation about stacking percents of damage is not exactly the smartest thing to do.....and beyond that anyone even remotely considers themselves a fan of roleplaying games of any stripe perhaps they will be willing to admit that it's a dumb fucking idea.
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My VERY FIRST Hellfire Amulet EVER MADE.
Never bothered with the uber bosses until today...
The crit damage you see was originally +5% Attack speed. First re-roll was to 7% Attack speed, and on re-roll number 5 was 91% critical damage,
Took about 12 more re-rolls to get 94%
Dropped a Rank 40 toxin gem on there for good measure......
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I find I can mostly tell because they behave like weird little idiots. But this is not based on just D3, its any game I have seen them in.
they move very mechanically they do no respond well to chat and whispers etc,
there is video footage of bots running through d3 and the ones I watched out of curiosity, they zip around like terminators...
and yes due to the fast paced streamlined run and gun play style that permeates through D3, it might be pretty tricky to spot....
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we are not talking about what possibly could be or failed to be. That is the issue. Nobody of note IS talking about that.
instead the devs take a game, D3 version 2.3, take a few items from that game and give them a new stat that boosts skill damage by 100%.
and then because before they happened to add that boost, there was basically nothing at all, they think that they have "added to the game". Or they think that having a few items that boost damage is better than just one. and that adding it is the right way to go without question.
Then when Quin comes along and points out one of several reasons why this is not correct when viewing the issue in an abstract way, nobody understands. they have already convinced themselves that 2 items that do that is an improvement over 1. then they are unable to think any further.
who in their right mind would say "don't add items that boost skill damage..." I DARE you to answer this question honestly. WHO would say "dont do it. hmm?
I'll tell you who. The person who can want more from the game. More for it than "slap some damage on an item and the players will clap and cheer in January."
That's who would say don't do it. The smart and passionate ones. The ones who look at D3 and see that it could be better, and can expand upon this notion in a multitude of ways.
Diablo 3 is made by people who say "yea put it in, and any of the concerns brought up we can just say to the players "we feel you, we get you, we understand......" and that will handle all of the sloppy remainder of our careless "improvement"
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We never left the main topic, the main topic is items are boring, what could be fun?
you and others around you simply strive to ignore any discussion or claim it false if it happens to not have anything to do with items in a single player game that is of the same genre.....
the main topic is that items and the players choosing between them is becoming stale and automatic and flavorless....just like how your vision of being locked in Starcraft single player vs a hodge podge unchanging basic card dealing Innkeeper....would be stale and thankfully, unlike you are prepared to accept, the entire rest of both of those games exist and are immediately and forever playable and enjoyable.....
I'm sorry that you cannot see the issue for what it is and think outside the square and apply what you think about to potential solutions
So far in this thread I have heard:
-We cant use anything that has to do with PVP, to circumvent the issue,
-We can use games if they are a different genre, to circumvent the issue,
-Wyatt Cheng "knows more about it" than Quin
and
-certain players don't see and issue, and so there is no issue...
It's really heartbreaking to be honest...especially when in your next paragraph you look at a tiny cross section in WoW, the items, and say "The itemization was pretty much at the levels of Diablo 3 Vanilla" are you admitting that Diablo 3 is doing OK if it compares to a small slice of a small portion of a different game? or is the comparison void because "PeeVeePee" ?
Not to mention you're wrong anyway... items in Wow had many occurrences in its item landscape that were WAY more interesting, situation and unique than Diablo 3 Vanilla, reforging came and went, items were continuously added to the game professions yielded wild and wacky contraptions etc,etc....
High end items had interesting special powers, giving you creative boosts to certain situations....
..........OH but lets ignore all of that. and then lets say something like "oh its a different genre / game / it's PVP.....yes that's a good line of reasoning..."
lets look at a cross section of a several year old game, ignore everything around it, including the flair and the actual interesting features of items specifically....then come up with an excuse that seems to make sense....its an RPG.......not an ARPG. there that will do. it has subscribers.....
That should justify Diablo 3 items.
What's next? We cant look anywhere for examples unless the game begins with the letter D?
My god, what happened to this place....
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The basis of this argument in this thread is the overwhelming and instant selection of one item that has had 100% damage slopped onto it, that 100% being a ball park figure.
RMP does not fall into that category. it is not auto chosen, nor is patron warrior, nor is any blend of units or even races in Starcraft, nor is any mix of classes automatically chosen as the best in WoW when raiding or during PVP. This is simply not the case. They are not auto chosen and they are not auto win. what that means is across a span of time things will change, certain skills or certain mixtures will shine from fight to fight. A weapon that boosts your damage of a skill from 0% to 100% is an auto win, and in Diablo 3's case i sure does not seem like in due time things will change....
Within the context of this argument put forth by Quin and the staggering boost in bonus damage driving all other items into complete obsolescence these new items are auto win.
in Diablo 3 weapons like this will be auto chosen and sadly the entire game has proven that this is the model that they are happy with.
Lacunis are auto chosen, end game set pieces are auto chosen, trifecta jewelry is auto chosen, furnaces and F-R Rings are auto chosen, SMKs are auto chosen. Mempos are auto chosen, as are witching hours. A sad pile of items is auto chosen for a short list of sad reasons. They are "auto desired" and auto shoveled down the players throats by developers who incessantly relax the drop rates on everything imaginable....
this is not the case with RMP,
this is not the case with marines
and it is ESPECIALLY not the case with any hearthstone cards because you do not even know what cards are going to be drawn from game to game. Even the most powerful cards might arrive in your hand RIGHT on curve and playing them in that particular situation might mean their complete waste and your assured demise. just last night I played Ragnaros into an empty board and lost the game because of it.
There will seemingly never be a case where you equipped a weapon with to "much damage to a skill" and it assured your demise,
also you will never be in a situation were equipping an item that boosted damage to a skill hinder your progress or assured your demise,
you wont ever be in a position where using items in D3 that "boosts all your damage" is the wrong thing to do.
the goal in D3 is boost your damage boost your damage boost your damage.
the goal in Hearthstone is not build a patron deck, build a patron deck, build a patron deck
the goal in WoW arena is not "click on RMP and win the game
the goal in Startcraft is not create marines until you win the game.
the goal in many games is not so clearly defined. And That's a good thing. but in D3 you have nothing but unflinching and automated definition.
That's a bad thing.
This is the elaborate reply to explain why mentioning the things that you did does not even remotely prove that mathematical superiority is an unavoidable outcome, in games. Even though you are correct about how strong they are and how reputable. And you identify that they are very successful, to the point where they are absolutely nerfed into oblivion as was the case of the grim patron charging warrior.....even in that ultra extreme case, the success rate of grim patron was absolutely peanuts compared to choosing a weapon that boosts your skill damage 100% vs one that boost it 0%. Within the context of this debate the points you raise no matter how accurate, prove and explain virtually nothing.
Many notable players and figureheads love to echo the statement about how everything in accordance with their character can be "mathed out" and a final solution is waiting to be found and copied...but they all so often fail to see the bigger picture of the game in question. they simply refuse to acknowledge the staggering list of nuances that fly the complete opposite direction of their theory. Even some of the very top end DPS hunters to ever walk planet earth have risked making that claim casually in discussion. I suppose they were correct back on the podcasts upon which they made their claims that when a profession might provide you even a single point of dexterity or agility that would lend itself to even one single % more damage in a parse, the claim was made within the scope of that hunters DPS.
Outside of that scope existed all the variables of the whole game and an exhaustive list of measures of success, some that had absolutely nothing to do with damage at all....certainly this hunter was aware that they are "only talking about" their class or their damage or the damage of the equation of the game. He must have been....only a fool would think with such a closed mind...
Unfortunately In D3 the damage equation IS the game, or at least in contrast to WoW a hilariously over-sized portion of the intrigue pie....
And I don't even raid at all, I never did anything beyond a handful of public dungeons for some welfare set of armor penetration pieces from Dalaran...
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Why bother? anything I type in reply you're just going to say "It's horrible.." and "you are glad I'm not working on D3 haha..."
The pvp in your head is a train-wreck.
The IDEA of pvp as it covers decades of gaming and spans countless fan-bases and organizations and teams and genres of games is not.
PVP in D3 could be anything they imagine it to be, and instead they imagine it to be nothing at all. Just 4 players in brawling room hitting each-other. Did not even put so much as a a fucking score board up for Christ's sake. Because your version of PVP is a train-wreck and their attempted version was an unpolished log of my shit, does not even tarnish one molecule of the globe spanning Idea of Players competing with other players. an idea that their other games took and ran to the end zone for points.
And as far as the pathetic idea they are gearing up for next year, this putting a few hundred % damage of a skill on a handful of items and calling it a day and patting themselves on the back over it...well....
The bulk of the player base seems to think this is wonderful added content everyone should be thankful for so when they just roll it out as it is to please the masses and ignore Quin's video you will know that its just par for the course.
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Diablo 3 is as deep as "damage counters life bars". This unfortunate outcome dictates that weapons need only to help drain those life bars and nothing more. skills need only to apply damage, there need only be one sole type of damage and hell lets make it so for the most part damage is added via a percent. its just simplicity feeding the mouth of simplicity. To some people this is the best that an Action RPG can hope for. those people are just....not smart enough to think outside the square.
It's unfortunate you cannot see any other far flung ideas for what they are and draw from them and use them for leverage to make Diablo 3 better than what it is, The way many people assumed that the professionals in California would have done in 2012......
It's unfortunate you simply lack the ability to see what elements of one game can aid the elements of another when I give you such beginner examples like Deus Ex.
its unfortunate that you think because 2 games belong to different genres or are split between PvP and PvE, you cannot borrow elements from one or the other to make one or the other better....its really unfortunate, because that's how some of the best games are made.
There was a time when real time strategy games did not even have numbers or stats of any kind. and were not PVP at all. Numbers and stats and PVP centric game play that appeared in other genres back in the mid 80s.......but lets keep it at a beginner level for the time being shall we? No need to wrestle with such a blasphemous statement that the numbers and unit stats in a game from one genre originated from a different one.......
It seems some people are just hell bent on dictating which genres are which and deciding which aspects of game play belong to one and not the other. I just want D3 weapons and items to be more interesting instead of less so, and don't really care where the inspiration comes from. One would hope it came from the other games their company is working on but apparently they can only borrow the shitty parts of WoW and none of the good....
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Videos and plays are out there having 1 mana creatures be stolen by sylvanas and hit by rag. "top end powers" as you say wasted on nothing, by cunning players and crazy luck. LAST NIGHT I was coming back from a loss, played Rag and because I did not anticipate the correct paladin secret Rag caused me to lose the game. I would have won without him. Dr boom is WIDELY regarded as the very best 7 mana creature in the game. and who knows if you will draw him, who knows if his bombs will hit the desired target who knows if the guy has a SW:death or a BG Hunter...and you just threw that card away or luck stole the win.
the discussion we are now having RIGHT NOW will never stop in hearthstone and it will never happen in Diablo 3 items. some players are OK with this and some are just beside themselves with confusion over the sheer waste of potential on display.
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there are PILES of units that counter marines. Units that marines cannot even do damage to. I'm not going to list them you can go look them up.
There are LOADS of cards that flat out destroy the attempted building of a brawler attack. cards that clear the whole board and cards that silenced the former charge mechanic of the Warsong Commander. cards that taunt incessantly, cards that steal units etc....
there are COUNTLESS examples of matches and skill combos and chance happenings were RMP was absolutely crushed and if it is so OP as you state, no other arena comp would have existed.....many did and despite the intense reliability of RMP, many many times for many many reasons it was toppled over like a wet paper towel.
WoW raids are so long and so story rich that I cant even begin to explain it to you. you think that everything is just a carbon copy of the worlds best guild at the moment and you simply haven't had the discussions about how varied the game can actually be, situations exist within the GM sculpted raid environments where classes one would not even think to use as a tank become viable options including druids , rogues and warlocks among probably many more.
discussions raged on over the inclusion of individual skill points and abilities and probably continue to rage. combat logs post wipe will be studied for hours on end by an endless stream of competitive players.....so...pretty hilarious for you to attempt to summarize wow raiding into "just copy the top dudes.....
and again......if its such a bad feature in WoW, if you even were correct.....which you are not....
Why then is Diablo 3 just click skills in town and dress like everyone else seen as a feature of convenience?
Raid strategies have already been an endless discussion, that obviously you are unaware of....
Clicking Diablo 3 items that grant +150% damage are not and endless discussion have not been and probably never will be.....
There are no counters to a higher damage percentage, to the same magnitude as there are counters to cards in hearthstone or units in Starcraft or comps in WoW arena. in fact one has to pretty much bend the preaking point to find such a thought provoking counter, with ideas that you have to sacrifice some SSS damage in order to be able to cast it more often. but this idea should be EVERYWHERE, and its hardly in trace amounts.......
but please continue teaching me about game theory. I cant wait. lol..
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why do situations where the Hearthstone AI does the exact same thing every time reinforce your argument and destroy mine when the situation you describe is hardly even possible without being able to choose what cards both you and him will draw? why is that?
In the case of starcrafts campaign, you may coast through campaign mode and find the AI doing the same thing over and over again....
But then you have to ignore the entire player vs player portion of the game, the portion upon which the legacy of the game was built. why the hell would you do that? why would you not see the good portion of the whole game as you state exactly "adapt to your opponent" why?
Why ignore the decade spanning legacy of starcraft PVP and latch on to the short comings of its AI????
and yet.... when you fight the same brain dead enemies in D3 year in year out....thats perfectly OK? why?
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MANY games do not suffer from this disease of "best build"
Starcraft did not have best units......Hearthstone does not have best cards........and Wow does not have a best arena or raid composition.
As you examine this idea that the things you hope to capitalize on change from moment to moment, you see that these games "run themselves", and they surge forward and remain popular and develop into professional past times. and they command floorspace at conventions for intrigued players and audience members. You can see where D3 falls short.
D3 has no "eureka" moments. you just plod forward like a fucking moron searching for green percentages instead of red ones, delivered in the most boring way possible. Trifecta or +damage. I'd know I was that fucking moron and I will be that moron again when the patch finally hits. I'll play the game for a bit and realize its just more of the same. its as satisfying as sucking the salt of a chicken mcnugget and throwing it away.
Wyatt Cheng fails to see the bigger picture.
Here is a quote from his write up:
---------------------
"I understand Quin's critique and totally get where he's coming from. Putting large skill bonuses means you can't cube the item and reconfigure them around as much."
----------------------
So Wyatt understands that finding and choosing a piece with more damage automatically reduces the average appeal of all other items in the game for a player. Then he says this:
----------------------------
If we were to increase the damage of base skills and lower legendary item +%s it gets the number where it needs to be for that configuration, but also affects every other configuration.
----------------------------
What he is doing is alluding to one specific suggestion of Quins, shifting damage off of individual items and placing them on skills.
Then his is pointing out a flaw laced within that niche solution and using the flaw to ignore the ENTIRE basis of the fucking complaint.
THEN HE JUSTIFIES THIS IDIOTIC SHUTDOWN BY SAYING THIS:
Having lots of toys to play around with and configure in different ways is GREAT. We love that. But what will inevitably happen is if any one of those builds is 10% better than the others you don't get an increase the variety, you end up with a decrease in variety due to there being a "right answer".
this is the part everyone needs to pay attention to. Wyatt Cheng said this. here I'll quote it a few times so its painfully clear.
having lots of toys to play around with and configure in different ways is GREAT.
having lots of toys to play around with and configure in different ways is GREAT.
having lots of toys to play around with and configure in different ways is GREAT.
But what will inevitably happen is if any one of those builds is 10% better
But what will inevitably happen is if any one of those builds is 10% better
But what will inevitably happen is if any one of those builds is 10% better
you don't get an increase the variety, you end up with a decrease in variety due to there being a "right answer".
you don't get an increase the variety, you end up with a decrease in variety due to there being a "right answer".
you don't get an increase the variety, you end up with a decrease in variety due to there being a "right answer".
Yep. And that's exactly the issue that Quin was trying to point out in his video
and exactly what many MANY have said in the Official general discussion forum for years.
and exactly what should have been mined from the players feed back before the fucking game was released. especially when its the other games from their stable that taught us this concept of "no best build"
When a THING is better than the rest of your THINGS.........you end up with a decrease in variety due to there being a "right answer".
I've read his post over and over and over again.
I've studied the sentences and thought heavily on how the weapons and the builds interact as he wanders around Raekors and the Fury of the Vanquished Peak weapon and try as I might its nothing more than a laughably shallow and worthless deflection of the bigger issue that they refuse to acknowledge.
When players see bigger damage, they grab it and everything else in that moment and forever forward, is obsolete. It's a plague of a disease that destroys the potential of Diablo 3, while a laundry list of other games are virtually immune. and they're being created just down the fucking hallway.
Every blue post is the same, just little buzzwords meant to invoke a sense of compassion in the heart of the angry critic.
And thanks for letting us swear on this forum, its very refreshing.
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Don't you think the game can do a bit better than just plop on a skill damage percent every few months?
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Don't worry they wouldn't let the game get to adventurous. The poor widdle playerbase might get scared and confused !!! they might have to look at a calculator. Oh my word, the HORROR!
The thing is, you insisting that the game cater to your simplified and carefree attitude mandates that anyone who wants something more is sucking rocks.
If players who actually care about the overall quality and depth of the game got their way and items and skills were made more interesting, You and your average kind would still be free to ignore all that you please and piddle around in whatever harmless difficulty you desire.
And for the record you and I are probably about the same distance in grift level, if anything you probably have made it even farther than me.
The notable difference is I want the game to encapsulate and cater to more driven players than I. I want the game to be a better version of itself, not just a better half hour for me to squish some zombies like a 5 year old laughing at the TV......I care about the quality of the game, and the interest level of it's items. its too bad blizzard caters to a globe spanning cluster of players who don't really care...
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I found myself shaking my head in dismay. Quin now after probably an untold number of nice videos and heaps of praise and fun little Blizzcon interviews, agrees with the mountain of frustration piled over at the official general discussion forum....its really sad its taken so long. He is only reciting what was painfully obvious years ago.
It's sad to see situations like this, Players that are held in high regard and who hold the game in high regard for insane lengths of time, notice a really goddamn fucking lame issue and then at that moment, so many players are like:
"oooh hey!! he's right!" that thing he noticed IS an issue, blizz please listen to him!!!! fellas lets rally behind that streamer over there!
To summarize the situation in the most diplomatic way, is to just make the exact same mistake Quin is making right now and all the rest of the pro players and all the moderators and all the streamers have made....they cushion the blows for the game. they dismiss its short comings and they shine a light on its strong points.
we've all watched hundreds of videos of noted players on youtube and if you watch long enough the same thing always happens, they let out a long sigh and their eyes drift downward and they mumble something about how maybe perhaps one day items might not fucking blow....I've seen it time and time again...just the most subtle and impotent statement ever about something that's...y'know kind of important to Diablo? items? and their cool interaction with skills? yes?
So now when people hear about the game being "rotten to the core" and the chorus-line of incoming improvements been chewed to bits over in General Discussion, i guess Quin hopefully now understands the environment over more so than he did before coming to this mighty revelation about stacking percents of damage is not exactly the smartest thing to do.....and beyond that anyone even remotely considers themselves a fan of roleplaying games of any stripe perhaps they will be willing to admit that it's a dumb fucking idea.