But why are standard mobs designed to be so pointless? My guess: to slow down the game and give people a reason to spend hours grinding. Everything to maximize playtime, which means lots of cash.
Even through this theory may have any base, this is not the main reaosn why WoW work that way.
The first 85 levels of wow is basically a tutorial. Each Wow class have like 40 skills. PEople need to time to learn how to use those skills, learn why they eist and when they should use then. The best wya to do that is unlock the skills one by one, so you get used to your skill list while you level up.
Right now the level speed of WoW is minimal. One can cap a character only in 10 days.
But I do agree that the monster are WAY to fucking dumb. Anyway WoW rules because it has the most fun and challenging raid system and raid is something that mmorpg players love.
WoW's combat IS good. The problem is that the whole game is based on team work, so the solo part ends up being dumb.
I've no idea how to fix wow's solo fightning... I don't think it's possible to creat interesting monster fights for 10 different classes. WoW mechanics only works when you have access to all kinda of abilities, and to do that you need at least 3 players.
The first 85 levels of wow is basically a tutorial. Each Wow class have like 40 skills. PEople need to time to learn how to use those skills, learn why they eist and when they should use then. The best wya to do that is unlock the skills one by one, so you get used to your skill list while you level up.
No offense but this is bullshit and it has always been bullshit. There is no way that solo leveling can teach anybody anything without difficulty, and WoW's leveling is not difficult.
You will not use half your skills in solo to begin with. A lot of them deal with situations not present in solo. You will also not use them correctly because solo rotations are different from groups rotations. You will also set up mid-level rotations which will not be used later on because you are lacking skills, so chances are, you won't see the skills you'll use the most until much later. Overall, solo is very different from grouping and one won't teach you the other. At most I could say PvP teachers anything but even then it's PvP not PvE.
If WoW wanted to teach its players anything it'd have an entry-level quest for everyone to do before they can join a high level instance. As of right now, though, the amount of in-game info in WoW in regards to how to play the game is virtually nonexistent.
WoW's leveling system is that way to slow down players, create an impression of progression, and hide the fact that it's just a huge massive persistent lobby. WoW is really about raids, so this lobby serves no purpose greater than that. Competitive games rarely force players to go through a whole bunch of progression until they can compete, and considering how much of a joke WoW's PvP is, for instance, that should tell you something.
I've no idea how to fix wow's solo fightning... I don't think it's possible to creat interesting monster fights for 10 different classes. WoW mechanics only works when you have access to all kinda of abilities, and to do that you need at least 3 players.
Funny, single player games have been doing it from the beginning of time.
All gameplay that is based around teams can be also simulated in a solo scenario. WoW just never bothered.
WoW solo doesn't teach you everything you need but it teachs alot. Everytime I get a new skill on WoW i allways read it and use it a few times to learn how it works in pratice. This teachs the difference between instant attacks and next swap attacks. The importance and limits of dots to dps. What is a interrupt skill and in wich situation you should use it. How to pull without aggroing more then you want to. Etc... Also the 1~85 leveling includes alot of 5 men runs that also teachs some basic concepts like threat, positioning, ccing, etc...
And single player game's does not have wow's mechanics. The ones that uses a familiar mechanic (free turns) have poor combat and only work because theres other aspects besides gameplay to catch your attention, like plot progression and exploration of new content. Maybe they should try to add those things in WoW... AoC's first 20 levels are great execly because theres interesting plot.
But i don't see how a 1x1 fight in WoW can ever be fun.
WoW solo doesn't teach you everything you need but it teachs alot. Everytime I get a new skill on WoW i allways read it and use it a few times to learn how it works in pratice. The importance and limits of dots to dps. What is a interrupt skill and in wich situation you should use it. How to pull without aggroing more then you want to.
This is very minimal and, I assure you, does not require the amount of time it takes to level in WoW.
It would be 300x times more effective to stick a person into an instance at max level and let them play around with it. WoW is not so difficult that you need a 3-month bootcamp to "learn" your class. You really don't. You could learn your entire class in a day, and out-game guides are more effective than the game itself, which lacks the capacity to teach you anything important.
Etc... Also the 1~85 leveling includes alot of 5 men runs that also teachs some basic concepts like threat, positioning, ccing, etc...
No it doesn't, you can solo the game and never enter an instance.
The only way to ensure people actually learn something is to limit them from being able to join instances if they haven't finished preparatory instances.
The ones that uses a familiar mechanic (free turns) have poor combat
So does WoW. WoW, in fact, has poorer combat than most of these games because it limits a lot of things because of balance fearmongering + it has the trinity.
WoW solo doesn't teach you everything you need but it teachs alot. Everytime I get a new skill on WoW i allways read it and use it a few times to learn how it works in pratice. The importance and limits of dots to dps. What is a interrupt skill and in wich situation you should use it. How to pull without aggroing more then you want to.
This is very minimal and, I assure you, does not require the amount of time it takes to level in WoW.
It would be 300x times more effective to stick a person into an instance at max level and let them play around with it. WoW is not so difficult that you need a 3-month bootcamp to "learn" your class. You really don't. You could learn your entire class in a day, and out-game guides are more effective than the game itself, which lacks the capacity to teach you anything important.
1. It would be 3000 times more frustrating. Start the game by reading through a list of 40 skills ? Start to play in group before even know what threat is ? Wipe your party 10 consecutives times and being kicked until you learn wtf is going on ? Hey i'm not saying WoWs leveling is perfect or anything, i'm only saying it has a reason to be there.
2. You don't take 3 months to level a wow character. I took like 15 days last time and i'm not addicted at all.
3. And no, the avarage player can't learn his class in a day. Try to do a experiement, a get someone that never played a mmorpg in his life and give him level 85 wow character and see what happens.
No it doesn't, you can solo the game and never enter an instance.
The only way to ensure people actually learn something is to limit them from being able to join instances if they haven't finished preparatory instances.
They tryed it in TBC it didin't worked out. It only drove away people from instances, wich is the focus of the game and turned clan logistics in hell (you had to mobilise your whole clan to attune new members. After a while not attuned people were exclused from the raiding world and unable to get back).
WoW's mechanic is the standard pseudo-turn based mechanic, BW games are littered with those.
And BW are kinda weak in gameplay imo.
So does WoW. WoW, in fact, has poorer combat than most of these games because it limits a lot of things because of balance fearmongering + it has the trinity.
When it comes down to solo situations, WoW have really poor mechanics indeed. But WoW works very nice in terms of teamwork. For exemple: to achieve the max DPS with a warlock is actually very easy and unfun (in terms of skill. Just use the best rotation.). However you shouldn't unleash all your DPs all the time because of threat. To keep your damage in a good point is a much more cooler task and it constantly changes because it depends on your party (better tanks allows more DPS, stronger party menbers will decrease your need to risk yourself with strong skills and allows more focus on other tasks like debuffing his damage).
1. It would be 3000 times more frustrating. Start the game by reading through a list of 40 skills ? Start to play in group before even know what threat is ? Wipe your party 10 consecutives times and being kicked until you learn wtf is going on ?
Works fine in LoL.
Start the game not knowing what any of the other 50 champions do (and, yes, you do need to know this).
Play in a group before you know what last hitting is.
Die 300 times and be called "noob", "you suck", "uninstall game".
It's the same in every game you play that has a level of complexity. Although I do believe WoW has a lot of filler skills because of trees, so you will not be using all 40 skills anyway.
2. You don't take 3 months to level a wow character. I took like 15 days last time and i'm not addicted at all.
It takes 3 days now because Blizz realized how stupid it was + most people are max level and are leveling alts + you know the game really well by now probably. In vanilla, it could take 3 months excluding exploits and the like.
3. And no, the avarage player can't learn his class in a day. Try to do a experiement, a get someone that never played a mmorpg in his life and give him level 85 wow character and see what happens.
Get someone who never played an MMO in his life, power level him to 85, and see what happens.
Sorry, inexperienced players are lousy in games at level 1 and at level 85. If people at 85 can't even CC you really have no argument here that they learned anything.
It only drove away people from instances, wich is the focus of the game and turned clan logistics in hell (you had to mobilise your whole clan to attune new members.
Then you need to decide if your game is about skill or about satisfying lazy people who can't bother do a few extra instances.
There is not a single thing in WoW that people don't QQ about ("clan logistics turned in hell" is nothing but QQ), it's really a matter of what defines your game and what doesn't.
After a while not attuned people were exclused from the raiding world and unable to get back).
They're excluded anyway. Either you have the WoTLK situation (everyone can do everything) or you have the Cata situation (game requires a tiny bit of skill). Blizz needs to decide where their game should go. On a personal level, though, I don't see why people bad at raids should be doing final raids instead of doing introductory raids or heroics or normals or w/e is appropriate.
When it comes down to solo situations, WoW have really poor mechanics indeed. But WoW works very nice in terms of teamwork.
I disagree. WoW's team combat is extremely primitive, as well. Tanking is limited and many have labeled it as "easy", CC is repetitive, interrupts are repetitive, and DPS is very boring, the only thing that required any skill at all was healing.
Problem is, none of the stuff you're saying is worth anything if you know in advance exactly what you're going to do. And WoW is very limited in terms of encounter design due to the trinity.
1. It would be 3000 times more frustrating. Start the game by reading through a list of 40 skills ? Start to play in group before even know what threat is ? Wipe your party 10 consecutives times and being kicked until you learn wtf is going on ?
Works fine in LoL.
Start the game not knowing what any of the other 50 champions do (and, yes, you do need to know this).
Play in a group before you know what last hitting is.
Die 300 times and be called "noob", "you suck", "uninstall game".
Dota, HoN and LoL are the definition noob hostility hehe
No.. It does not work fine. Imo those game are actually a exemple of how throwing the player in the multiplayer without any kinda of learning will NOT work.
It takes 3 days now because Blizz realized how stupid it was + most people are max level and are leveling alts + you know the game really well by now probably. In vanilla, it could take 3 months excluding exploits and the like.
In WoW vanilla i capped my first character in 30 days (around 100 hours if i'm not mistaken). It was considered extremely fast compered to other mmorpg of it's time (i took like 2 years to cap a RO character).
Get someone who never played an MMO in his life, power level him to 85, and see what happens.
Sorry, inexperienced players are lousy in games at level 1 and at level 85. If people at 85 can't even CC you really have no argument here that they learned anything.
Learn anything it's not the same as learn everything. A player that level they character normally will most of the time be better then a power leveled player. I had the worst experience with power leveled people in WoW.. they just enter your clan, show how it's impossible to even do heroics with him and then quit the game after ruin everyone's game a hunderd times.
Do they know everything they need? Or course not. But they learn alot... much better then someone that uses searing pain all the time w/o knowing that this skill have a very specific function.
WoW is a broken game, nothing ever works out in it.
]
Some works, others not. Imo Raiding works great if you have time and a clan to do it.
They're excluded anyway. Either you have the WoTLK situation (everyone can do everything) or you have the Cata situation (game requires a tiny bit of skill). Blizz needs to decide where their game should go. On a personal level, though, I don't see why people bad at raids should be doing final raids instead of doing introductory raids or heroics or normals or w/e is appropriate.
Exclude potential and even good players just because they didn't played in the begnning of the expansion is ridicolous.
And the best raid time was in the end of TBC when attunaments where no longer needed. We just throwed one or two noobs in the raid and in time they learned how to play. Better then refusing someone just because most clans don't wanna run the old instances.
Then you need to decide if your game is about skill or about satisfying lazy people who can't bother do a few extra instances.
There is not a single thing in WoW that people don't QQ about ("clan logistics turned in hell" is nothing but QQ), it's really a matter of what defines your game and what doesn't.
Lazyness? Fucking god this is a freaking game. Noone in a game should pass 2 seconds doing something they don't want to.
Skill ? Not all no-attuned people are bad. Many just want to ignore those dungeons or was not playing when most of the clans were running it. Attunament =/= skill. And if a clan want to accept a single unskilled player and teach him instead of forcing all the other 24 run fruitless instaces it's up to the clan. I prefer the second option.
I disagree. WoW's team combat is extremely primitive, as well. Tanking is limited and many have labeled it as "easy", CC is repetitive, interrupts are repetitive, and DPS is very boring, the only thing that required any skill at all was healing.
Problem is, none of the stuff you're saying is worth anything if you know in advance exactly what you're going to do. And WoW is very limited in terms of encounter design due to the trinity.
Then we have to agree in disagree.
I never played any other role then DPS so i can't say tank/heal is easy or not. But to reach the highest DPS counters it requires more skill then any other western RPG game i've ever played (and i play everything on the hardest, allways). I usually changes rotation alot. It depends on so many factors. What kind of debuffs you want to use wich depends on your clan formation. The tank's competence wich depends on the healers skill. Almost anything that happens in your clan and in the fight provokes something that end up changing what you should do and what talents you should pick. To reach the optimal point you gotta learn how to take everything in consideration, even subjective stuff like the bahavior of your tema mates. Imo this is more complex then 99% of the SP RPGs out there.
So Rift did not fail badly and it's actually an amazing game. The interface is sort of like WoW but the game is original and innovative. If there is a game that WoW is worrying about right now, it's gonna be this one.
So Rift did not fail badly and it's actually an amazing game. The interface is sort of like WoW but the game is original and innovative. If there is a game that WoW is worrying about right now, it's gonna be this one.
Discuss
It was just released and I doubt any MMO dev would be worried especially Blizz. From what I've seen the interface is not wort of like WoW it's exactly like WoW, right down to the chat log and the floating names. The last MMO to directly take on WoW was Warhammer: AoK, how did that turn out?
If there's any MMO to contend with WoW its either gonna be SW:TOR or GW2
www.myspace.com/mpotatoes for all your Trans Siberian Orchestra listening pleasure
If you want to arrange it
This world you can change it
If we could somehow make this
Christmas thing last
By helping a neighbor
Or even a stranger
And to know who needs help
You need only just ask
The graphics on Rift have so much more detail in my opinion. Just because WoW came first doesn't mean it can't become obsolete :happy:
I reccommend Rift to everyone here, unless you've spent your life on WoW to whcih I understand your anger.
Ehh, graphics aren't the highest priority on my list, it really looks like a carbon copy of WoW imo and the whole slogan "we're not on Azeroth anymore" doesn't help its case.
Again WoW/Blizz aren't worried about Rift and shouldn't have to be, Rift ain't doing anything special as far as I can tell and unless devs can come up with some innovation, Blizz is going to dominate the MMORPG market for years to come.
Yeah I agree about their slogan. If they're trying to make it seem that's it's a differed game than WoW I don't think they should have mentioned WoW in the commercial. But marketing is marketing I suppose.
I've been watching my dad play Rift a couple times now and after seeing the graphics I would feel nauseous if I ever had to play WoW again. Though it has lots of similarities, I thought it looked like a nice breath of fresh air. Even if the story doesn't really have much potential to grow.
After playing WoW on and off since release I honestly don't know how people(or I guess vets) can still play that game! While the game is trying to evolve, not all, but a lot of the community has devolved into shit. I try to keep my distance from the Wow forums because whenever I see someone call another player a "baddie" it makes me want to bust their teeth out with a pipe.
I've been playing for about a week now, and having a lot of fun. The world's very interactive, and it feels fresh. More or less a return to WoW in its vanilla state.
I just grabbed it off Amazon as it is on sale for $35 I expect it'll be not too dissimilar to the standard MMO feel but given its reported polish at launch and heft class selection and customization I figure it will be a great little fantasy title to hold me over and maybe play with some fellow DiabloFans.
Once I have my real..er shard picked out next week and stuff maybe those whoa re playing can shoot me a pm and we can kill monsters
Even through this theory may have any base, this is not the main reaosn why WoW work that way.
The first 85 levels of wow is basically a tutorial. Each Wow class have like 40 skills. PEople need to time to learn how to use those skills, learn why they eist and when they should use then. The best wya to do that is unlock the skills one by one, so you get used to your skill list while you level up.
Right now the level speed of WoW is minimal. One can cap a character only in 10 days.
But I do agree that the monster are WAY to fucking dumb. Anyway WoW rules because it has the most fun and challenging raid system and raid is something that mmorpg players love.
I've no idea how to fix wow's solo fightning... I don't think it's possible to creat interesting monster fights for 10 different classes. WoW mechanics only works when you have access to all kinda of abilities, and to do that you need at least 3 players.
You will not use half your skills in solo to begin with. A lot of them deal with situations not present in solo. You will also not use them correctly because solo rotations are different from groups rotations. You will also set up mid-level rotations which will not be used later on because you are lacking skills, so chances are, you won't see the skills you'll use the most until much later. Overall, solo is very different from grouping and one won't teach you the other. At most I could say PvP teachers anything but even then it's PvP not PvE.
If WoW wanted to teach its players anything it'd have an entry-level quest for everyone to do before they can join a high level instance. As of right now, though, the amount of in-game info in WoW in regards to how to play the game is virtually nonexistent.
WoW's leveling system is that way to slow down players, create an impression of progression, and hide the fact that it's just a huge massive persistent lobby. WoW is really about raids, so this lobby serves no purpose greater than that. Competitive games rarely force players to go through a whole bunch of progression until they can compete, and considering how much of a joke WoW's PvP is, for instance, that should tell you something.
Funny, single player games have been doing it from the beginning of time.
All gameplay that is based around teams can be also simulated in a solo scenario. WoW just never bothered.
And single player game's does not have wow's mechanics. The ones that uses a familiar mechanic (free turns) have poor combat and only work because theres other aspects besides gameplay to catch your attention, like plot progression and exploration of new content. Maybe they should try to add those things in WoW... AoC's first 20 levels are great execly because theres interesting plot.
But i don't see how a 1x1 fight in WoW can ever be fun.
It would be 300x times more effective to stick a person into an instance at max level and let them play around with it. WoW is not so difficult that you need a 3-month bootcamp to "learn" your class. You really don't. You could learn your entire class in a day, and out-game guides are more effective than the game itself, which lacks the capacity to teach you anything important.
No it doesn't, you can solo the game and never enter an instance.
The only way to ensure people actually learn something is to limit them from being able to join instances if they haven't finished preparatory instances.
WoW's mechanic is the standard pseudo-turn based mechanic, BW games are littered with those.
So does WoW. WoW, in fact, has poorer combat than most of these games because it limits a lot of things because of balance fearmongering + it has the trinity.
1. It would be 3000 times more frustrating. Start the game by reading through a list of 40 skills ? Start to play in group before even know what threat is ? Wipe your party 10 consecutives times and being kicked until you learn wtf is going on ? Hey i'm not saying WoWs leveling is perfect or anything, i'm only saying it has a reason to be there.
2. You don't take 3 months to level a wow character. I took like 15 days last time and i'm not addicted at all.
3. And no, the avarage player can't learn his class in a day. Try to do a experiement, a get someone that never played a mmorpg in his life and give him level 85 wow character and see what happens.
They tryed it in TBC it didin't worked out. It only drove away people from instances, wich is the focus of the game and turned clan logistics in hell (you had to mobilise your whole clan to attune new members. After a while not attuned people were exclused from the raiding world and unable to get back).
And BW are kinda weak in gameplay imo.
When it comes down to solo situations, WoW have really poor mechanics indeed. But WoW works very nice in terms of teamwork. For exemple: to achieve the max DPS with a warlock is actually very easy and unfun (in terms of skill. Just use the best rotation.). However you shouldn't unleash all your DPs all the time because of threat. To keep your damage in a good point is a much more cooler task and it constantly changes because it depends on your party (better tanks allows more DPS, stronger party menbers will decrease your need to risk yourself with strong skills and allows more focus on other tasks like debuffing his damage).
Start the game not knowing what any of the other 50 champions do (and, yes, you do need to know this).
Play in a group before you know what last hitting is.
Die 300 times and be called "noob", "you suck", "uninstall game".
It's the same in every game you play that has a level of complexity. Although I do believe WoW has a lot of filler skills because of trees, so you will not be using all 40 skills anyway.
It takes 3 days now because Blizz realized how stupid it was + most people are max level and are leveling alts + you know the game really well by now probably. In vanilla, it could take 3 months excluding exploits and the like.
Get someone who never played an MMO in his life, power level him to 85, and see what happens.
Sorry, inexperienced players are lousy in games at level 1 and at level 85. If people at 85 can't even CC you really have no argument here that they learned anything.
WoW is a broken game, nothing ever works out in it.
Then you need to decide if your game is about skill or about satisfying lazy people who can't bother do a few extra instances.
There is not a single thing in WoW that people don't QQ about ("clan logistics turned in hell" is nothing but QQ), it's really a matter of what defines your game and what doesn't.
They're excluded anyway. Either you have the WoTLK situation (everyone can do everything) or you have the Cata situation (game requires a tiny bit of skill). Blizz needs to decide where their game should go. On a personal level, though, I don't see why people bad at raids should be doing final raids instead of doing introductory raids or heroics or normals or w/e is appropriate.
I disagree. WoW's team combat is extremely primitive, as well. Tanking is limited and many have labeled it as "easy", CC is repetitive, interrupts are repetitive, and DPS is very boring, the only thing that required any skill at all was healing.
Problem is, none of the stuff you're saying is worth anything if you know in advance exactly what you're going to do. And WoW is very limited in terms of encounter design due to the trinity.
Dota, HoN and LoL are the definition noob hostility hehe
No.. It does not work fine. Imo those game are actually a exemple of how throwing the player in the multiplayer without any kinda of learning will NOT work.
In WoW vanilla i capped my first character in 30 days (around 100 hours if i'm not mistaken). It was considered extremely fast compered to other mmorpg of it's time (i took like 2 years to cap a RO character).
Learn anything it's not the same as learn everything. A player that level they character normally will most of the time be better then a power leveled player. I had the worst experience with power leveled people in WoW.. they just enter your clan, show how it's impossible to even do heroics with him and then quit the game after ruin everyone's game a hunderd times.
Do they know everything they need? Or course not. But they learn alot... much better then someone that uses searing pain all the time w/o knowing that this skill have a very specific function.
]
Some works, others not. Imo Raiding works great if you have time and a clan to do it.
Exclude potential and even good players just because they didn't played in the begnning of the expansion is ridicolous.
And the best raid time was in the end of TBC when attunaments where no longer needed. We just throwed one or two noobs in the raid and in time they learned how to play. Better then refusing someone just because most clans don't wanna run the old instances.
Lazyness? Fucking god this is a freaking game. Noone in a game should pass 2 seconds doing something they don't want to.
Skill ? Not all no-attuned people are bad. Many just want to ignore those dungeons or was not playing when most of the clans were running it. Attunament =/= skill. And if a clan want to accept a single unskilled player and teach him instead of forcing all the other 24 run fruitless instaces it's up to the clan. I prefer the second option.
Then we have to agree in disagree.
I never played any other role then DPS so i can't say tank/heal is easy or not. But to reach the highest DPS counters it requires more skill then any other western RPG game i've ever played (and i play everything on the hardest, allways). I usually changes rotation alot. It depends on so many factors. What kind of debuffs you want to use wich depends on your clan formation. The tank's competence wich depends on the healers skill. Almost anything that happens in your clan and in the fight provokes something that end up changing what you should do and what talents you should pick. To reach the optimal point you gotta learn how to take everything in consideration, even subjective stuff like the bahavior of your tema mates. Imo this is more complex then 99% of the SP RPGs out there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpXoNaiPfT8
Rift's new slogan "We're not in Azeroth anymore?" Really? Talk about arrogance, Rift is going to fail badly and I will laugh.
Discuss
It was just released and I doubt any MMO dev would be worried especially Blizz. From what I've seen the interface is not wort of like WoW it's exactly like WoW, right down to the chat log and the floating names. The last MMO to directly take on WoW was Warhammer: AoK, how did that turn out?
If there's any MMO to contend with WoW its either gonna be SW:TOR or GW2
I reccommend Rift to everyone here, unless you've spent your life on WoW to whcih I understand your anger.
If you want to arrange it
This world you can change it
If we could somehow make this
Christmas thing last
By helping a neighbor
Or even a stranger
And to know who needs help
You need only just ask
Ehh, graphics aren't the highest priority on my list, it really looks like a carbon copy of WoW imo and the whole slogan "we're not on Azeroth anymore" doesn't help its case.
Again WoW/Blizz aren't worried about Rift and shouldn't have to be, Rift ain't doing anything special as far as I can tell and unless devs can come up with some innovation, Blizz is going to dominate the MMORPG market for years to come.
After playing WoW on and off since release I honestly don't know how people(or I guess vets) can still play that game! While the game is trying to evolve, not all, but a lot of the community has devolved into shit. I try to keep my distance from the Wow forums because whenever I see someone call another player a "baddie" it makes me want to bust their teeth out with a pipe.
Come join me on quarrystone ;o
Once I have my real..er shard picked out next week and stuff maybe those whoa re playing can shoot me a pm and we can kill monsters
Just remember you can only play with people on your own shard =P I don't know what shard contains most diablofans.