@Bilge:Where did I ask for class to be nerfed? It's fun to see people laugh at something they "did not" read carefully.
@Doorsfan: You may believe what you want. I remember everyone I know got at least to inferno act 1 when they announced that %1.9. Maybe I don't know any noobs so I only know the ones who know how to play the game. Maybe that's the problem. I don't know. I don't have any specific data to share with you. Just my own 2 eyes as I said before. Also, all these are not enough reasons not to nerf critical hit damage.
@All: Does anyone here have any data about how build diversity is right now? Guess no. Then let's stop this.
@Doorsfan: I think you have problems understanding what I'm trying to tell. To clarify a little; "I read every single thing blizzard published about this game."
Then i fail to see why you would be so inclined, to only believe that you as a single individual player, who cannot possibly observe enough data to compare, by sheer amounts and there of relevance - Would somehow have the amounts of data to actually go out and somehow formulate this in such a degree to have it become a actual problem, when they themselves - the publishers who has the statistics (they don't post them very often but they did pull a exact % thing on the WD Speed kill on Butcher, if you recall that), claimed that it's not a problem.
Man, no offense but you're getting trolled hard.
This is not a thread about crit. It's a "QQ ABOUT IAS NERF" thread in disguise.
To clarify further, this is the most important problem about crit damage:
"For a demon hunter who uses Dual 1h Crossbows, Crit Damage can get as high as %400 only from weapons(%100 on affix, %100 from Radiant Star Emerald on each crossbow). %65 from an amulet, x2 %35 from rings, %50 from gloves it makes totally %585 Crit Damage!!! This is not fair. This means one of your 2 hits will be %100 of your damage, and the other %585 damage. Does this sound fair to you?"
This is how my original post starts: "I understand that you don't want to nerf Crit stats, but currently crit damage is too powerful."
This important problem, leads to less build diversity now and this diversity will be much less in the future as players progress in the game, get more powerful and realize the crit way more. The thread is as long as it should be, so my message is delivered to the ones I wanted to. Thanks for all good infos and please continue to share them here. For useless infos, thanks for bumping the thread. I said everything I can about this subject, the only thing I can do after this is remind some of you to read everything until you understand them. Remember, the more you read, the more you can understand. I'm done with this thread.
Crit cap, 650% is retarded every second shot. Cap it at 300, then people can focus on build diversity instead of chasing the max crit dmg.
I'm at 259 crit dmg and 31% chance on my wiz, that plays very well. If I hit 300 and 40% i'd be more then happy!!
But I think the theme of this topic is correct, too many people are choosing crit builds, it is the new IAS.
Crit synergizes with a lot of builds, and you have nothing to back this up with - Literally, no data. So, null and void.
Your post reminds me of a quote
"What can you do with 7 billion, that you can't do with 4"
To me 650% crit damage is well into the realm of not necessary, you would literally one shot everything in game with a single crit. Which is why people will chase it and continue to value crit gear over everything else. The same way IAS was valued over everything else previously.
Also what data do i need to back up a DH with 100k damage and 650% crit, hard cap it, let people achieve a max and look at other things to pimp their build with, since there is a far beeter chance to get other decent stats with not so perfect crit rolls. If you meant, I have no data on how many people choose crit builds, you are right, but neither do you, so you are an idiot for claiming I can't have an opinion based off how many crit builds I play myself and my DIII buddies also. I don't have any farming happy friends who aren't chasing more and more crit because it is so powerful. Which is fine, most of us are at around 250/35, as I clearly stated if we reached 300/40 we would be laughing when we farm inferno. Hence why I think a cap is a decent way to alleviate the need for crit.
Feel free to post your data disproving my impression in the space provided <---->
Look guys, I think I finally get his point to be honest. And I may even agree that there is a problem there.
The problem isn't that we get to absurdly high dps numbers, it's how much more effective crit chance paired with crit damage is compared to the other "dps itemization" possibilities.
Instead of us having multiple ways of building a DPS character (either focusing on solid base stats like massive int/dex, focusing on IAS, or focusing on crit), right now the only viable path is crit chance + crit damage.
So, where's the problem there?
The problem is how much your damage scales with crit chance + damage. It's easily 4 to 5 times more effective than any other "dps route (IAS or just solid base dmg/main-stats), to the point that the absolute only dps itemization is to pursue crit chance + crit damage. The sick sinergy with some skills make that even worse.
My personal experience related to this so far. My first character, my Wizard, I tried to make her an extremely balanced character with solid defense and offense so I could solo content without having to rely on others. End result, 1.3k Vitality, 2.2k Intelligence, a 980~ 1 hander with a 380 dmg source, around 800 resist all, and the most I could get out of her was 45-50k dps. I have since then changed some aspects of my build with her to improve resists and get a shield for block chance, and get some life leech to try and make AoE work for sustainability (lost some int/vit but it's working decently on Act 3).
My second character, a Barbarian. Shitty gear, 1.5k Str (500 less than my Wiz), almost 0 +crit damage, and he's hitting 38k dps. That's from an average crit chance (45%~) and crappy crit dmg (with ruthless, around 250%) I'm almost hitting as hard as my Wizard, on whom I spent over 5 million trying to make a "critless build".
I'm not saying there is 110% a problem, let's nerf crit chance and crit damage. I'm just pointing out something worthy of discussing, and giving my personal insight on what could be a problem: having only 1 viable dps-route, because that one is easily (even with crappy rolls) 4 to 5 times more effective than the other dps-routes.
They nerfed IAS because it synergised excessively with certain skill/rune combos which meant you felt you had to take that build to take advantage of IAS. Which you had to do because with those combos IAS was OP. They didn't want a stat to cripple build diversity.
In certain cases you could argue a similar problem exists with crit. It's not really an issue now but I can almost guarantee it will be thrust sharply into the spotlight when PVP comes out!
You don't crit for much no matter how much your Crit Damage is if you ignore your main stat. If you don't stack Crit Chance and Crit Damage, and IAS having so low values on items, what else is there to stack? There's only 4 damage stats. Base stat, Crit Chance, Crit Damage and IAS (aside from weapon damage). Crit Damage is only powerful if you have good base stats along with good weapon damage. Crit Damage / Crit Chance alone is crap.
You don't crit for much no matter how much your Crit Damage is if you ignore your main stat. If you don't stack Crit Chance and Crit Damage, and IAS having so low values on items, what else is there to stack? There's only 4 damage stats. Base stat, Crit Chance, Crit Damage and IAS (aside from weapon damage). Crit Damage is only powerful if you have good base stats along with good weapon damage. Crit Damage / Crit Chance alone is crap.
But the thing is how much more powerful the average crit chance/crit dmg rolls combined with an average main stat roll is than a maxed mainstat with ias for instance.
If you have near perfect main stats and a high base damage against someone with an average (say 40% less than you) main stat/base damage and average crit stats (somethinglike 30-35% crit chance, 180-230% crit dmg, which isn't even close to max), you'll probably do crappy damage (instead of similar damage) because of how crit dmg scales with crit chance.
That's the issue I think people have with these 2 stats (iirc even Athene said this was a problem).
The only real 'issue' is that stacking crit chance and crit damage is the only competitive way to build your characters at the moment. Even if you have zero skills or passives that interact with crit, crit chance and crit damage is still the correct way to build.
The main difference, compared to attack speed, was that attack speed was clearly the best way to build from the very first item, while crit isn't obviously the best way to build until you've gotten a handful of items.
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@Doorsfan: You may believe what you want. I remember everyone I know got at least to inferno act 1 when they announced that %1.9. Maybe I don't know any noobs so I only know the ones who know how to play the game. Maybe that's the problem. I don't know. I don't have any specific data to share with you. Just my own 2 eyes as I said before. Also, all these are not enough reasons not to nerf critical hit damage.
@All: Does anyone here have any data about how build diversity is right now? Guess no. Then let's stop this.
Man, no offense but you're getting trolled hard.
This is not a thread about crit. It's a "QQ ABOUT IAS NERF" thread in disguise.
"For a demon hunter who uses Dual 1h Crossbows, Crit Damage can get as high as %400 only from weapons(%100 on affix, %100 from Radiant Star Emerald on each crossbow). %65 from an amulet, x2 %35 from rings, %50 from gloves it makes totally %585 Crit Damage!!! This is not fair. This means one of your 2 hits will be %100 of your damage, and the other %585 damage. Does this sound fair to you?"
This is how my original post starts:
"I understand that you don't want to nerf Crit stats, but currently crit damage is too powerful."
This important problem, leads to less build diversity now and this diversity will be much less in the future as players progress in the game, get more powerful and realize the crit way more. The thread is as long as it should be, so my message is delivered to the ones I wanted to. Thanks for all good infos and please continue to share them here. For useless infos, thanks for bumping the thread. I said everything I can about this subject, the only thing I can do after this is remind some of you to read everything until you understand them. Remember, the more you read, the more you can understand. I'm done with this thread.
Your post reminds me of a quote
"What can you do with 7 billion, that you can't do with 4"
To me 650% crit damage is well into the realm of not necessary, you would literally one shot everything in game with a single crit. Which is why people will chase it and continue to value crit gear over everything else. The same way IAS was valued over everything else previously.
Also what data do i need to back up a DH with 100k damage and 650% crit, hard cap it, let people achieve a max and look at other things to pimp their build with, since there is a far beeter chance to get other decent stats with not so perfect crit rolls. If you meant, I have no data on how many people choose crit builds, you are right, but neither do you, so you are an idiot for claiming I can't have an opinion based off how many crit builds I play myself and my DIII buddies also. I don't have any farming happy friends who aren't chasing more and more crit because it is so powerful. Which is fine, most of us are at around 250/35, as I clearly stated if we reached 300/40 we would be laughing when we farm inferno. Hence why I think a cap is a decent way to alleviate the need for crit.
Feel free to post your data disproving my impression in the space provided <---->
Told you that you guys were getting trolled.
The problem isn't that we get to absurdly high dps numbers, it's how much more effective crit chance paired with crit damage is compared to the other "dps itemization" possibilities.
Instead of us having multiple ways of building a DPS character (either focusing on solid base stats like massive int/dex, focusing on IAS, or focusing on crit), right now the only viable path is crit chance + crit damage.
So, where's the problem there?
The problem is how much your damage scales with crit chance + damage. It's easily 4 to 5 times more effective than any other "dps route (IAS or just solid base dmg/main-stats), to the point that the absolute only dps itemization is to pursue crit chance + crit damage. The sick sinergy with some skills make that even worse.
My personal experience related to this so far. My first character, my Wizard, I tried to make her an extremely balanced character with solid defense and offense so I could solo content without having to rely on others. End result, 1.3k Vitality, 2.2k Intelligence, a 980~ 1 hander with a 380 dmg source, around 800 resist all, and the most I could get out of her was 45-50k dps. I have since then changed some aspects of my build with her to improve resists and get a shield for block chance, and get some life leech to try and make AoE work for sustainability (lost some int/vit but it's working decently on Act 3).
My second character, a Barbarian. Shitty gear, 1.5k Str (500 less than my Wiz), almost 0 +crit damage, and he's hitting 38k dps. That's from an average crit chance (45%~) and crappy crit dmg (with ruthless, around 250%) I'm almost hitting as hard as my Wizard, on whom I spent over 5 million trying to make a "critless build".
I'm not saying there is 110% a problem, let's nerf crit chance and crit damage. I'm just pointing out something worthy of discussing, and giving my personal insight on what could be a problem: having only 1 viable dps-route, because that one is easily (even with crappy rolls) 4 to 5 times more effective than the other dps-routes.
In certain cases you could argue a similar problem exists with crit. It's not really an issue now but I can almost guarantee it will be thrust sharply into the spotlight when PVP comes out!
If you have near perfect main stats and a high base damage against someone with an average (say 40% less than you) main stat/base damage and average crit stats (somethinglike 30-35% crit chance, 180-230% crit dmg, which isn't even close to max), you'll probably do crappy damage (instead of similar damage) because of how crit dmg scales with crit chance.
That's the issue I think people have with these 2 stats (iirc even Athene said this was a problem).
The main difference, compared to attack speed, was that attack speed was clearly the best way to build from the very first item, while crit isn't obviously the best way to build until you've gotten a handful of items.