Im just curious what people think, will the randomly balanced builds be able to compete with the more gimmicky builds at all? I'm really having trouble seeing a build of 1 DH, 1 Wiz, 1 Barb 1 WD beeing able to compete with something like 2x Mo 2x Barb (Share melee damage between yourself, stack stuns / blinds / knockbacks / auras / warcries) or Petways like 4x WDs with a minion wall of 60-100 different mobs?
It just really seems like every classes defense is designed to be enough by itself but if it can affect others and you ramp it up by 4, like 4x monks stacking their defenses. What you're left with is something that can only be described as an inpenetrable fortress?
I would love to see 4 WD's armies get obliterated by one rare pack with AOE abilities in Inferno.
The player composition itself doesn't seem to matter much. All classes have stuns, disables, slows, and damage. You could take any composition of any 4 players and have them all focus on stuns, or all focus on damage.
It just really seems like every classes defense is designed to be enough by itself but if it can affect others and you ramp it up by 4, like 4x monks stacking their defenses. What you're left with is something that can only be described as an inpenetrable fortress?
two words:
diminishing returns
also blizz said they designed the game to be "easier" with co-op VS solo granted all players are working together as a nice greasy wheel. which in my experience is an extremely rare thing EVEN when playing with friends. which is why your better off alone if your really good.
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"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
I think it'll be like Team Fortress 2. Now i know what one might think "team fortress is nothing like Diablo 3", but they share a similar "skill system". There's different classes, all with a different job, demoman has grenades and stickybombs with controlled detonation, sniper is long range, high damaging, precise strikes, and so on.
In Team Fortress, each class has many different choices of weapon loadouts that pertain to that class. Some are useful offshoots of the main weapon; Like the demoman has a pipe bomb launcher that arcs out of his launcher like a mortar, and you have to sort of predict the trajectory to be accurate, but when the bombs hit, they'll bounce around a bit, then blow up. However, you can trade in the bouncy pipe bombs in for one that does absolutely no damage unless it hits another player, the upside is it does quite a bit more damage than the standard pipe bombs.
Then, the demoman has "joke weapons". They arent as good as his standard loadout, but he can forego the pipe and sticky bombs and turn himself into a demoknight. It plays completely different from the normal demoman, instead of lobbing pipebombs from a distance, you trade your stickybomb for a shield that gives more HP and explosive resistances and namely: allows you to charge at the enemy, you trade your 2nd item the pipe bomb for boots that help you maneuver better in melee, and you trade your standard melee weapon for a sword that allows ammo to heal you instead of give you ammo.
Getting to my point and how this all relates to diablo; Demoman is a great class with his normal loadout, but sometimes people trade those in for demoknight because it's just fun to do sometimes. There's no argument, the demoknight loadout is not as good as the standard loadout, you wont get as many kills or be as useful to your team, but it's fun sometimes. It's balanced simply by the fact that it isn't really as adaptable to every situation as the default loadout, and oftentimes you find yourself helpless in some situations, where the default loadout would have offered you several options on how to save yourself.
I think some of the gimmicky builds and the players that play them will crop up from time to time, but they'll be balanced by their effectiveness. I think if a group wants to play 4 defensive monks, they will do it, but i dont think it will be as effective as a good balanced build. But just like Team Fortress, sometimes it's fun running the shittier, albiet ridiculous and fun builds, but i dont see them being common, as that happening isn't very common at all in TF2.
With 4 monks, yeah, probably. But 2x monks 2x Barbarians you would have 4x as much melee defense and only have to deal with ~1\4th of the hits compared to teaming say 2x WH's and a Wizard as a monk / barb.
And the same goes for 2-3 WD's teaming up, each minion would get hit less, last longer and take less damage individually. Of course AOE would suck but you can also replenish the minion wall much faster.
I think some of the gimmicky builds and the players that play them will crop up from time to time, but they'll be balanced by their effectiveness. I think if a group wants to play 4 defensive monks, they will do it, but i dont think it will be as effective as a good balanced build. But just like Team Fortress, sometimes it's fun running the shittier, albiet ridiculous and fun builds, but i dont see them being common, as that happening isn't very common at all in TF2.
But do you think each of the 4 monks would need as much defence individually when supported by 3 other monks as they would when playing as the only monk?
Isn't it more reasonable to assume the damage is shared somewhat equally between the 4 of them? And that each of them can drop some defence and bring more offence? Or even stack different kinds of defense?
For instance 1x Monk may have to bring crippling wave with concussion rune to stop some damage.
4x of them would be able to bring 1x Crippling Wave with Breaking Wave Rune, 1x Crippling Wave with Concussion Rune and 2x Deadly Reach with Foresight or Scattered Blows.
Likewise, as a solo monk you might have to bring Serenity for solo defense. With 4 monks you could bring 4x Breath of Heaven with Blazing Wrath.
Or thinking Mantras a single monk may choose to bring Mantra of Evasion with Hard Target. 4x Monks and you'll have Mantra of Evasion with Backlash, Mantra of Retribution with Transgression, Mantra of Healing with Time of Need and Mantra of Conviction with Overawe.
Basically 4x monks has:
2x Attackers with huge AOE attacks.
1x Attacker that reduces movement, attack speed and damage by 20%+.
1x Attacker that makes mobs take 10% more damage.
4x Team heals every 15 sec for ~7000 damage and a 15% individual damage increase.
15% dodge with 35% weapon damage dealth every time they do so.
8% Increased attack speed and return damage.
Mantra of Healing for 315 damage per second +20% to all resistances on all chars.
Mantra of Conviction making all mobs take 24% more damage.
1x monk has:
Attack that reduces movement, attack speed and damage by 20%+.
20% dodge and 3/20 sec damage immunity.
I know the solo monk will also have different kinds of skills from the other classes to support him, but he will also be facing 4 times as many mobs within melee range while the 4x monks will basically share the damage they take in between themselves.
With 4 monks, yeah, probably. But 2x monks 2x Barbarians you would have 4x as much melee defense and only have to deal with ~1\4th of the hits compared to teaming say 2x WH's and a Wizard as a monk / barb.
And the same goes for 2-3 WD's teaming up, each minion would get hit less, last longer and take less damage individually. Of course AOE would suck but you can also replenish the minion wall much faster.
O_O....
did you forget that monsters gain more health/dmg with each person who joins? and its not 6% or however low D2 was for each person. i just read a thread where inferno monsters do 170k dmg, even after your defense it seems like your pets will DEFINITELY bet one shotted when in a group of 4 because of the damage multiplier
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"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
did you forget that monsters gain more health/dmg with each person who joins? and its not 6% or however low D2 was for each person. i just read a thread where inferno monsters do 170k dmg, even after your defense it seems like your pets will DEFINITELY bet one shotted when in a group of 4 because of the damage multiplier
I'm comparing 4 man situations with each other.
Aka WD as a part of a team with a DH, Barb and Wizard compared to WD as a part of a 4x WD team. Or Monk as a part of a DH/WD/Wizard team as compared to a team with 4x melee.
And also, even if a mob can oneshot a pet if you got 4x WD's you can spawn like 15-20 fresh pets every second that goes by. Compared to a solo WD having his pets oneshotted faster then he can spawn them. It's actually a perfect example of why gimmick might be a problem. Comprende?
did you forget that monsters gain more health/dmg with each person who joins? and its not 6% or however low D2 was for each person. i just read a thread where inferno monsters do 170k dmg, even after your defense it seems like your pets will DEFINITELY bet one shotted when in a group of 4 because of the damage multiplier
I'm comparing 4 man situations with each other.
Aka WD as a part of a team with a DH, Barb and Wizard compared to WD as a part of a 4x WD team. Or Monk as a part of a DH/WD/Wizard team as compared to a team with 4x melee.
And also, even if a mob can oneshot a pet if you got 4x WD's you can spawn like 15-20 fresh pets every second that goes by. Compared to a solo WD having his pets oneshotted faster then he can spawn them. It's actually a perfect example of why gimmick might be a problem. Comprende?
Singleplayer is a different story.
oh thought u were comparing solo VS co op. im confused about 15-20 fresh pets every second? all pet skills have a 1+ minute cooldown. so if they are all 1 shotted, or 1 shotted at once with a monster AOE like cleave, then bam all pets gone for 1 min, lol.
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"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
With 4 monks, yeah, probably. But 2x monks 2x Barbarians you would have 4x as much melee defense and only have to deal with ~1\4th of the hits compared to teaming say 2x WH's and a Wizard as a monk / barb.
And the same goes for 2-3 WD's teaming up, each minion would get hit less, last longer and take less damage individually. Of course AOE would suck but you can also replenish the minion wall much faster.
O_O....
did you forget that monsters gain more health/dmg with each person who joins? and its not 6% or however low D2 was for each person. i just read a thread where inferno monsters do 170k dmg, even after your defense it seems like your pets will DEFINITELY bet one shotted when in a group of 4 because of the damage multiplier
I heard somewhere that they won't get more dmg.
If they got more dmg, then the guy is right. A team with 1 melee and 3 ranged would be totally crap. The one guy in melee would get absolutely raped....I mean we are talking without lube.
I am just hoping its balanced with solo play, but I got this bad feeling its not going to be even close. The people who like to play alone are gonna take it up the rear imo, and it won't get fixed for a LONG LONG LONG time. If you add up all the buffs/debuffs that can be applied by a good group, its just daunting.
Monk: Mantra of evasion 15% chance to dodge runed Hard target +20% armor & Heals & cripping wave reduces attack speed by 20% runed concussion -20% dmg for 3 secs
Barb: 40% Armor shout + Threatening shout 20% dmg reduction and runed felter 15% reduced attack speed as well.
DH: Massive dmg + Sentry that can yield 15% Dmg Reduction
WD: Pets + 20% dmg reduction when poisoned.
You throw all that shit together, and then consider the fact that mobs health scales less than scale 1:1, and I can't even imagine this being anything close to a level playing field. The fact they took some defensive skills, doesn't even matter, because as a team they can cover each others weakness, like AoE dmg, and the mobs have less health per player!
We are talking about a total of nearly 60% dmg reduction, BEFORE armor.
And there are 2 armor buffs, an additional 15% chance to dodge, and 2 attack speed reduction debuffs.
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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
uhm.... no. they 110% for sure increase in damage. its such common knowledge im way too lazy to look it up. please proceed to www.google.com or talk to anyone who played the beta with other people. like myself. so yes it does.
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"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
uhm.... no. they 110% for sure increase in damage. its such common knowledge im way too lazy to look it up. please proceed to www.google.com or talk to anyone who played the beta with other people. like myself. so yes it does.
Large dmg increases isn't even possible.
People would be easily one shotted in inferno with large dmg increase.
You take a solid consistent group of 4 that knows the above shit I was talking about will absolutely demolish hard content. Playing solo is going to be like a snail pace by comparison. They wanted this game to be more multiplayer friendly, and swung the pendulum way too far.
But even if we assume you are right and the dmg does scale upwards slightly with each member, there is no way it can compensate for the above.
Great solo players could probably keep up with group pugs, and thats about it.
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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
uhm.... no. they 110% for sure increase in damage. its such common knowledge im way too lazy to look it up. please proceed to www.google.com or talk to anyone who played the beta with other people. like myself. so yes it does.
omfg its not on the unofficial site?!?! it must not be true!
played the beta for many months, multiplayer always had mobs doing more damage. i actually think the game even says so when another player joins in the bottom left. but yes mob dmg does in fact increase per player
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"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
uhm.... no. they 110% for sure increase in damage. its such common knowledge im way too lazy to look it up. please proceed to www.google.com or talk to anyone who played the beta with other people. like myself. so yes it does.
omfg its not on the unofficial site?!?! it must not be true!
played the beta for many months, multiplayer always had mobs doing more damage. i actually think the game even says so when another player joins in the bottom left. but yes mob dmg does in fact increase per player
Personal experience regarding dmg intake could easily be biased by the fact the monsters take longer to kill.
Duhh...that's pretty much common sense.
Like I said, even if it dmg does increase, its a pitiful amount, and coordinated group play is going to absolutely dominate.
PS:
I played beta coop too and I hated it. Mobs died so fast you could do little more than run behind others.
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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
Like I said, even if it does, its a pitiful amount, and coordinated group play is going to absolutely dominate.
good luck bud
Your math skills must be laughable, if you can't understand this.
60% dmg reduction before armor is even considered in group play.
20% armor buff & 40% armor buff
15% dodge
20 & 15% decreased attack speed
That is a hardcore raiding team competing in mechanics designed for a pug.
They will absolutely demolish the content, long before the single player even knows WTF is happening.
If you think you are going to be able to compete with coordinated groups in Diablo3, then you are utterly delusional.\
PS:
I played beta coop too and I hated it. Mobs died so fast you could do little more than run behind others.
So when did you conduct this dmg test?
You don't have any actual evidence, do you?
Just an assumption based on D2.
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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
Im just curious what people think, will the randomly balanced builds be able to compete with the more gimmicky builds at all? I'm really having trouble seeing a build of 1 DH, 1 Wiz, 1 Barb 1 WD beeing able to compete with something like 2x Mo 2x Barb (Share melee damage between yourself, stack stuns / blinds / knockbacks / auras / warcries) or Petways like 4x WDs with a minion wall of 60-100 different mobs?
It just really seems like every classes defense is designed to be enough by itself but if it can affect others and you ramp it up by 4, like 4x monks stacking their defenses. What you're left with is something that can only be described as an inpenetrable fortress?
In response to OP's post, I think there's a fair chance that a group like that can obtain a level of synergy that allows them to breeze through certain content. However, I think group makeups of similar classes such as all melee or all barbs or all WDs or what have you will be few and far between. Why? Loot.
With 4 monks, yeah, probably. But 2x monks 2x Barbarians you would have 4x as much melee defense and only have to deal with ~1\4th of the hits compared to teaming say 2x WH's and a Wizard as a monk / barb.
And the same goes for 2-3 WD's teaming up, each minion would get hit less, last longer and take less damage individually. Of course AOE would suck but you can also replenish the minion wall much faster.
....
did you forget that monsters gain more health/dmg with each person who joins? and its not 6% or however low D2 was for each person. i just read a thread where inferno monsters do 170k dmg, even after your defense it seems like your pets will DEFINITELY bet one shotted when in a group of 4 because of the damage multiplier
I wish people would just read a bit more about the Armaddon before making this general statement that "OMG Inferno mobs hit for 170k!". If you read the little paragraph it says "It also unleashes an occasional slam attack, hammering the sharp, bony point of its great chin down on foes who foolishly wander in too close. (This slam often follows a powerful, taunting roar, so watch for that tip-off as the Armaddon rears back.)"
Im just curious what people think, will the randomly balanced builds be able to compete with the more gimmicky builds at all? I'm really having trouble seeing a build of 1 DH, 1 Wiz, 1 Barb 1 WD beeing able to compete with something like 2x Mo 2x Barb (Share melee damage between yourself, stack stuns / blinds / knockbacks / auras / warcries) or Petways like 4x WDs with a minion wall of 60-100 different mobs?
It just really seems like every classes defense is designed to be enough by itself but if it can affect others and you ramp it up by 4, like 4x monks stacking their defenses. What you're left with is something that can only be described as an inpenetrable fortress?
In response to OP's post, I think there's a fair chance that a group like that can obtain a level of synergy that allows them to breeze through certain content. However, I think group makeups of similar classes such as all melee or all barbs or all WDs or what have you will be few and far between. Why? Loot.
With 4 monks, yeah, probably. But 2x monks 2x Barbarians you would have 4x as much melee defense and only have to deal with ~1\4th of the hits compared to teaming say 2x WH's and a Wizard as a monk / barb.
And the same goes for 2-3 WD's teaming up, each minion would get hit less, last longer and take less damage individually. Of course AOE would suck but you can also replenish the minion wall much faster.
....
did you forget that monsters gain more health/dmg with each person who joins? and its not 6% or however low D2 was for each person. i just read a thread where inferno monsters do 170k dmg, even after your defense it seems like your pets will DEFINITELY bet one shotted when in a group of 4 because of the damage multiplier
I wish people would just read a bit more about the Armaddon before making this general statement that "OMG Inferno mobs hit for 170k!". If you read the little paragraph it says "It also unleashes an occasional slam attack, hammering the sharp, bony point of its great chin down on foes who foolishly wander in too close. (This slam often follows a powerful, taunting roar, so watch for that tip-off as the Armaddon rears back.)"
1st off the title is very misleading.
2nd that pic wasn't there for a VERY long time.
So its easy to judge after the fact, but many didn't have the best info at first.
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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
If you think you are going to be able to compete with coordinated groups in Diablo3, then you are utterly delusional.\
never said i could. i said that if 4 players are playing smoothly together like a greasy wheel then yes they will beat it faster than solo, OBVIOUSLY. but MOST as in at least 90%+ of pugs will end up in disaster and many MANY wipes/much slower killing speed in inferno than one solo veteran player. in any game where u play with random large groups of people this is always the case.
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"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
If you think you are going to be able to compete with coordinated groups in Diablo3, then you are utterly delusional.\
never said i could. i said that if 4 players are playing smoothly together like a greasy wheel then yes they will beat it faster than solo, OBVIOUSLY. but MOST as in at least 90%+ of pugs will end up in disaster and many MANY wipes/much slower killing speed in inferno than one solo veteran player. in any game where u play with random large groups of people this is always the case.
But given the right team build, stacking defense and offence multipliers like monk auras, warcries and stuns. Sharing damage in between the team. How much coordination is really needed?
How long before people start using premade team builds and we see the LFT chat filled with "Monkway GLF M1+M4 to go", "Meleeway GLF Monk2 and Barb1 to go" or even "Wizway LF Nuker".
If you stack enough defense, to you really have to think further then just staying together and playing "your role"?
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It just really seems like every classes defense is designed to be enough by itself but if it can affect others and you ramp it up by 4, like 4x monks stacking their defenses. What you're left with is something that can only be described as an inpenetrable fortress?
The player composition itself doesn't seem to matter much. All classes have stuns, disables, slows, and damage. You could take any composition of any 4 players and have them all focus on stuns, or all focus on damage.
two words:
diminishing returns
also blizz said they designed the game to be "easier" with co-op VS solo granted all players are working together as a nice greasy wheel. which in my experience is an extremely rare thing EVEN when playing with friends. which is why your better off alone if your really good.
In Team Fortress, each class has many different choices of weapon loadouts that pertain to that class. Some are useful offshoots of the main weapon; Like the demoman has a pipe bomb launcher that arcs out of his launcher like a mortar, and you have to sort of predict the trajectory to be accurate, but when the bombs hit, they'll bounce around a bit, then blow up. However, you can trade in the bouncy pipe bombs in for one that does absolutely no damage unless it hits another player, the upside is it does quite a bit more damage than the standard pipe bombs.
Then, the demoman has "joke weapons". They arent as good as his standard loadout, but he can forego the pipe and sticky bombs and turn himself into a demoknight. It plays completely different from the normal demoman, instead of lobbing pipebombs from a distance, you trade your stickybomb for a shield that gives more HP and explosive resistances and namely: allows you to charge at the enemy, you trade your 2nd item the pipe bomb for boots that help you maneuver better in melee, and you trade your standard melee weapon for a sword that allows ammo to heal you instead of give you ammo.
Getting to my point and how this all relates to diablo; Demoman is a great class with his normal loadout, but sometimes people trade those in for demoknight because it's just fun to do sometimes. There's no argument, the demoknight loadout is not as good as the standard loadout, you wont get as many kills or be as useful to your team, but it's fun sometimes. It's balanced simply by the fact that it isn't really as adaptable to every situation as the default loadout, and oftentimes you find yourself helpless in some situations, where the default loadout would have offered you several options on how to save yourself.
I think some of the gimmicky builds and the players that play them will crop up from time to time, but they'll be balanced by their effectiveness. I think if a group wants to play 4 defensive monks, they will do it, but i dont think it will be as effective as a good balanced build. But just like Team Fortress, sometimes it's fun running the shittier, albiet ridiculous and fun builds, but i dont see them being common, as that happening isn't very common at all in TF2.
With 4 monks, yeah, probably. But 2x monks 2x Barbarians you would have 4x as much melee defense and only have to deal with ~1\4th of the hits compared to teaming say 2x WH's and a Wizard as a monk / barb.
And the same goes for 2-3 WD's teaming up, each minion would get hit less, last longer and take less damage individually. Of course AOE would suck but you can also replenish the minion wall much faster.
But do you think each of the 4 monks would need as much defence individually when supported by 3 other monks as they would when playing as the only monk?
Isn't it more reasonable to assume the damage is shared somewhat equally between the 4 of them? And that each of them can drop some defence and bring more offence? Or even stack different kinds of defense?
For instance 1x Monk may have to bring crippling wave with concussion rune to stop some damage.
4x of them would be able to bring 1x Crippling Wave with Breaking Wave Rune, 1x Crippling Wave with Concussion Rune and 2x Deadly Reach with Foresight or Scattered Blows.
Likewise, as a solo monk you might have to bring Serenity for solo defense. With 4 monks you could bring 4x Breath of Heaven with Blazing Wrath.
Or thinking Mantras a single monk may choose to bring Mantra of Evasion with Hard Target. 4x Monks and you'll have Mantra of Evasion with Backlash, Mantra of Retribution with Transgression, Mantra of Healing with Time of Need and Mantra of Conviction with Overawe.
Basically 4x monks has:
2x Attackers with huge AOE attacks.
1x Attacker that reduces movement, attack speed and damage by 20%+.
1x Attacker that makes mobs take 10% more damage.
4x Team heals every 15 sec for ~7000 damage and a 15% individual damage increase.
15% dodge with 35% weapon damage dealth every time they do so.
8% Increased attack speed and return damage.
Mantra of Healing for 315 damage per second +20% to all resistances on all chars.
Mantra of Conviction making all mobs take 24% more damage.
1x monk has:
Attack that reduces movement, attack speed and damage by 20%+.
20% dodge and 3/20 sec damage immunity.
I know the solo monk will also have different kinds of skills from the other classes to support him, but he will also be facing 4 times as many mobs within melee range while the 4x monks will basically share the damage they take in between themselves.
O_O....
did you forget that monsters gain more health/dmg with each person who joins? and its not 6% or however low D2 was for each person. i just read a thread where inferno monsters do 170k dmg, even after your defense it seems like your pets will DEFINITELY bet one shotted when in a group of 4 because of the damage multiplier
I'm comparing 4 man situations with each other.
Aka WD as a part of a team with a DH, Barb and Wizard compared to WD as a part of a 4x WD team. Or Monk as a part of a DH/WD/Wizard team as compared to a team with 4x melee.
And also, even if a mob can oneshot a pet if you got 4x WD's you can spawn like 15-20 fresh pets every second that goes by. Compared to a solo WD having his pets oneshotted faster then he can spawn them. It's actually a perfect example of why gimmick might be a problem. Comprende?
Singleplayer is a different story.
oh thought u were comparing solo VS co op. im confused about 15-20 fresh pets every second? all pet skills have a 1+ minute cooldown. so if they are all 1 shotted, or 1 shotted at once with a monster AOE like cleave, then bam all pets gone for 1 min, lol.
If they got more dmg, then the guy is right. A team with 1 melee and 3 ranged would be totally crap. The one guy in melee would get absolutely raped....I mean we are talking without lube.
I am just hoping its balanced with solo play, but I got this bad feeling its not going to be even close. The people who like to play alone are gonna take it up the rear imo, and it won't get fixed for a LONG LONG LONG time. If you add up all the buffs/debuffs that can be applied by a good group, its just daunting.
Monk: Mantra of evasion 15% chance to dodge runed Hard target +20% armor & Heals & cripping wave reduces attack speed by 20% runed concussion -20% dmg for 3 secs
Barb: 40% Armor shout + Threatening shout 20% dmg reduction and runed felter 15% reduced attack speed as well.
DH: Massive dmg + Sentry that can yield 15% Dmg Reduction
WD: Pets + 20% dmg reduction when poisoned.
You throw all that shit together, and then consider the fact that mobs health scales less than scale 1:1, and I can't even imagine this being anything close to a level playing field. The fact they took some defensive skills, doesn't even matter, because as a team they can cover each others weakness, like AoE dmg, and the mobs have less health per player!
We are talking about a total of nearly 60% dmg reduction, BEFORE armor.
And there are 2 armor buffs, an additional 15% chance to dodge, and 2 attack speed reduction debuffs.
Epicurus
uhm.... no. they 110% for sure increase in damage. its such common knowledge im way too lazy to look it up. please proceed to www.google.com or talk to anyone who played the beta with other people. like myself. so yes it does.
Where is it at?
http://www.diablowiki.net/Multiplayer
Large dmg increases isn't even possible.
People would be easily one shotted in inferno with large dmg increase.
You take a solid consistent group of 4 that knows the above shit I was talking about will absolutely demolish hard content. Playing solo is going to be like a snail pace by comparison. They wanted this game to be more multiplayer friendly, and swung the pendulum way too far.
But even if we assume you are right and the dmg does scale upwards slightly with each member, there is no way it can compensate for the above.
Great solo players could probably keep up with group pugs, and thats about it.
Epicurus
omfg its not on the unofficial site?!?! it must not be true!
played the beta for many months, multiplayer always had mobs doing more damage. i actually think the game even says so when another player joins in the bottom left. but yes mob dmg does in fact increase per player
Duhh...that's pretty much common sense.
Like I said, even if it dmg does increase, its a pitiful amount, and coordinated group play is going to absolutely dominate.
PS:
I played beta coop too and I hated it. Mobs died so fast you could do little more than run behind others.
Epicurus
good luck bud
Your math skills must be laughable, if you can't understand this.
60% dmg reduction before armor is even considered in group play.
20% armor buff & 40% armor buff
15% dodge
20 & 15% decreased attack speed
That is a hardcore raiding team competing in mechanics designed for a pug.
They will absolutely demolish the content, long before the single player even knows WTF is happening.
If you think you are going to be able to compete with coordinated groups in Diablo3, then you are utterly delusional.\
PS:
I played beta coop too and I hated it. Mobs died so fast you could do little more than run behind others.
So when did you conduct this dmg test?
You don't have any actual evidence, do you?
Just an assumption based on D2.
Epicurus
In response to OP's post, I think there's a fair chance that a group like that can obtain a level of synergy that allows them to breeze through certain content. However, I think group makeups of similar classes such as all melee or all barbs or all WDs or what have you will be few and far between. Why? Loot.
I wish people would just read a bit more about the Armaddon before making this general statement that "OMG Inferno mobs hit for 170k!". If you read the little paragraph it says "It also unleashes an occasional slam attack, hammering the sharp, bony point of its great chin down on foes who foolishly wander in too close. (This slam often follows a powerful, taunting roar, so watch for that tip-off as the Armaddon rears back.)"
1st off the title is very misleading.
2nd that pic wasn't there for a VERY long time.
So its easy to judge after the fact, but many didn't have the best info at first.
Epicurus
never said i could. i said that if 4 players are playing smoothly together like a greasy wheel then yes they will beat it faster than solo, OBVIOUSLY. but MOST as in at least 90%+ of pugs will end up in disaster and many MANY wipes/much slower killing speed in inferno than one solo veteran player. in any game where u play with random large groups of people this is always the case.
But given the right team build, stacking defense and offence multipliers like monk auras, warcries and stuns. Sharing damage in between the team. How much coordination is really needed?
How long before people start using premade team builds and we see the LFT chat filled with "Monkway GLF M1+M4 to go", "Meleeway GLF Monk2 and Barb1 to go" or even "Wizway LF Nuker".
If you stack enough defense, to you really have to think further then just staying together and playing "your role"?