They can ignore the damage stats, bring mass mf, utility, and slightly irrelevant damage to the group, letting the other 3 people kill quickly and focus on damage stats while they maintain control or buff/heal, and benefit the overall yield of the group. Sort of similar to a healing role in other MMO's.
Speaking on a purely hypothetical soapbox, if a top tiered MF/Utility player has 1600-2000 mf, and the utility to carry 3 glass cannon/ zero MF types through inferno, you're going to yield a ton of shinies. It's my (educated) guess that this type of person would be in extremely high demand for group play.
You call it socialism, I call it specialized labor.
Honestly, the way I see it, this is the logical evolution from D2. I would much rather have this than the item scramble that D2 was. in D2 you all would benefit from the magic find of whatever character killed the boss, but any one person could swoop in and steal it all.
This way, you all still benefit, but now you don't have to worry that the character with the highest MF got the killing blow and everyone gets an equal share of the loot. I think it's meant to foster cooperativeness rather than being alone.
If you think about it, it makes it so that groups working together to get a lot of items don't have one ore two characters being less effective because they are the MF mules while the other 2 have fun killing and surviving. This way you can all share in the MF gear and just play how you want to.
Sadly, it's a system that may not be suited for random group play, but will be much better for playing with friends. This is how the Co-op system in general feels, though. As groups will have a split of 4 people getting loot and sharing, but randoms pretty much just horde it all.
I think the problem you're having with the MF system is actually not a MF problem, it's the random groups don't really do you much good problem. Unless you just like playing with more people in general.. then yeah, it's all gravy. or something.
whats up with all these MF stacking peeps feeling so entitled?
obviously theres going to be a sweet spot of magic find vs stat gear that will make things go smoothly while farming. if things are going to be as rough as they say in inferno and youre stacking nothing but MF sure youll be contributing if your party can even kill anything or kill at a decent pace.
oh and as far as sharing MF? youve always had to share group dps / survivability what makes this any different?
The system makes perfect sense. In a group you share kill speed so you should share MF too. With this system, you still have the choice to solo and keep all your MF.
I understand that the system is supposed to encourage you to build non-MF characters, but it all it does to me is encourage me to play by my singleplayer.
Am I the only one?
No offense, but you should change your mind on this by about 180° as many others have already stated. And that's not a matter of opinion. Nobody will leech off your mf. You leech off their damage! If you also deal more damage (or "contribute more to the killing"), you should (and would) abandon the game anyway, that's like a lvl50 carrying lvl20s, who'd do that in a public game?
But while damage and other combat contribution is shared automatically among the group, the rewards are not. And why would anyone in a group deserve more loot than anyone else? Especially someone who sacrifices combat contribution? Fairness in this regard can only be achieved this way and it was brilliant of Blizz to come up with this. Well, actually it was common sense, but amazing nevertheless.
By the way, what's your motivation to mf in a public game in the first place? It's not like D2, where you would get more drops off a single mob if only there are more players in the game. The mob drops more, but you don't get it, so it only takes longer if you go on your own. And if you don't go on your own, see above.
I understand that the system is supposed to encourage you to build non-MF characters, but it all it does to me is encourage me to play by my singleplayer.
Am I the only one?
That's where you are wrong. It's supposed to encourage you to go into a group with a more group-focused mind set. In other words, everyone brings something to the table. Use multiplayer for its social aspects and not as just a buff to your speed/killing power. Truly WANT to game with other people outside of it just being convenient and you will not see a problem with sharing.
EDIT: With that said, I'll probably going through at least Normal in Single simply due to the fact that I want to immerse myself in the story and don't need to get grouped with someone that has already done it or doesnt care and feels the need to skip it. More than likely, one playthrough with each character in singleplayer, due to the fact that reactions/dialogue changes due to personality.
A few points (skipped the last 2 pages, sorry if covered).
If you aren't ridiculously stacking MF, i.e. you have "kill gear" with a MF frosting, it is likely that other characters will be geared in a similar manner. So someone mentioned one affix on each item being MF. If you're giving up so little kill power for MF, why assume that everyone ISN'T doing the same thing?
If there is a kill rate cost to MF, then it may be that +X damage stat is worth the same as +X magic find as far as your rate of obtaining (good) items is concerned.
As a member of a group, you could evaluate it such that each player is merely an itemslot. If there were one item that had +1000 MF, but all your other items gave +1000 killy-ness each for +3000 total (4 players, 4 items for simplicity), it would be the same as wearing 4 items with +250 MF +750 killy-ness. This is equivalent to 1 MF stacker in a group with 3 DPS stackers, or a group of 4 players with a balance of stats. It's the same net items/time for everyone involved.
This sharing only becomes a problem when their are disparate item levels involved. If you are willing to play with better/worse geared players, then you will be mooching/carrying according to your(or their) tolerance for each.
items per unit time= (killy-ness stats)*(mf stats)
if i want to go all MF i will go all MF <.< i don't want to share my awesome 200 magic find (that gimps me!) whit other people, this way i'm at 50%, but gimped as if i had 200%
why not split ALL STATS in the game the same way?!?!?? <.< omg this is so silly
you dont want to share your awesome MF, but you want them to use their damage to help you exploit your MF? selfish much?
D2 always had shared MF, by virtue of having shared loot instead of individual loot. This change basically just makes MF work more like it did in D2, within the context of an individual loot system.
Also, someone geared for damage increases the number of kills per minute, which speeds up runs and increases how often MF gets triggered. If NV gives worthwile ammounts of MF, and Inferno is as hard as it is supposed to be, it's not going to be like D2 Mephisto runs, where anyone could just gear up for MF and do speed runs over and over.
The high damage characters who make it possible to finish fights quicky without lots of extra kiting and dying deserve their cut. It doesn't make sense to be able to stack inpractical ammounts of MF and slow down runs, while getting better loot than the people doing the work.
Magic find socialism is clearly the best way to go. I would much prefer to share magic find over the alternative. If your mf applied to all of your dropped items from other peoples kills we would witness scores of mf stacking terd wads who can't kill anything and run around hiding in corners. It would take several public games to find even one person playing the game properly.
I did almost all of my magic find runs in Diablo 2 solo as well. If I ran them with other people they were also magic finding and had gear. I won't mind averaging my mf with other mf geared people.
Diablo III is a much more social experience, built around co-op PvE. Sure, you can still play single player and have a lot of fun that way. You can play with friends and get more benefits than just who gets the items, you get the benefit of making friends and sharing because you want to. You found a rare bow, but you're a barbarian. You share it with your buddy who is a demon hunter, all the sudden the game is encouraging good social community habits.
I for one am with the OP on this one. If you can only have so much MF without being a hinder to a group, than does't that affectively lower the MF cap for all? Also, people are assuming the fact that people with a large MF values, do lower DPS than everyone else by default. That's a clear bias, and is an oversight on the issue.
Please explain how someone who is focusing on MF will be doing more or equal DPS with people who are not. Assuming equal quality gear, this just doesn't make sense. And as an above poster mentioned, if you are doing more dps and have more mf then you are carrying the game and you should probably leave anyway.
By attacking the 1% who stack MF, it is the 99% who really get hurt. MF is great in solo games, but does not scale in multiplayer games. Say, each character puts on armor to enhance their damage to +100. In a four player game, we are looking at an extra 400 damage on the battlefield. Now say each player sacrifices DPS for 100% MF. Instead of 400% MF for the entire party, the party receives only 100% MF. Why invest in an ability that doesn't scale, when DPS scales? And if you are the only MF'er in party, why invest in MF when it gets nerfed 75% in a party of 4? That doesn't make sense. So by punishing the 1%, the 99% of the DPS'ers get hurt.
I think this is a way of making magic items scarcer so the auction house makes more money.
By attacking the 1% who stack MF, it is the 99% who really get hurt. MF is great in solo games, but does not scale in multiplayer games. Say, each character puts on armor to enhance their damage to +100. In a four player game, we are looking at an extra 400 damage on the battlefield. Now say each player sacrifices DPS for 100% MF. Instead of 400% MF for the entire party, the party receives only 100% MF. Why invest in an ability that doesn't scale, when DPS scales? And if you are the only MF'er in party, why invest in MF when it gets nerfed 75% in a party of 4? That doesn't make sense. So by punishing the 1%, the 99% of the DPS'ers get hurt.
I think this is a way of making magic items scarcer so the auction house makes more money.
If 4 players have 100% MF, then the group effectively *does* have 400% MF, because each player has a 100% increase in MF for their own drops *because we have individual drops*. If the drops were shared, then there would need to be a group %, such as 400% in this case, but then its unfair as only the fastest "clickers" get the items, like in D2.
I am not sure if you just misunderstand the math or you are deliberately fudging facts, but it works out just fine in 99% of cases.
There is only one case that I can see it being a bit unfair, and that is for those people who find the MOST elite gear that has the highest DPS AND good MF as a side effect, they wont be sacrificing DPS, but will be sharing their MF. Although I see this as a real corner case. In most circumstances blizzards system is fair.
There is only one case that I can see it being a bit unfair, and that is for those people who find the MOST elite gear that has the highest DPS AND good MF as a side effect, they wont be sacrificing DPS, but will be sharing their MF. Although I see this as a real corner case. In most circumstances blizzards system is fair.
I disagree, even in that 1% case where the person outgears the others it is still fair for two reasons.
#1 There is almost certainly someone else with better gear. Its not like they are carrying everyone.
#2 Differences in gear would always exist no matter what system you used.
If we are comparing different systems, then you can't consider this anyways.
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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
There is only one case that I can see it being a bit unfair, and that is for those people who find the MOST elite gear that has the highest DPS AND good MF as a side effect, they wont be sacrificing DPS, but will be sharing their MF. Although I see this as a real corner case. In most circumstances blizzards system is fair.
I disagree, even in that 1% case where the person outgears the others it is still fair for two reasons.
#1 There is almost certainly someone else with better gear. Its not like they are carrying everyone.
#2 Differences in gear would always exist no matter what system you used.
If we are comparing different systems, then you can't consider this anyways.
What I mean is, lets stay you have been farming inferno for weeks at level 60, and you join a pub game with 3 other people who have just reached 60/inferno. You have high end items with say, 2000dps and 150% MF, they have 1000dps with 50% MF. Objectively you are carrying them damage wise AND MF wise, you are actually over-geared compared to them in every aspect, simply because you have been playing for longer and accumulated better items.
In this case, the argument (which I agree with BTW), that "MF and DPS are mutually exclusive" doesn't apply *in that game*.
The solution to this is for you to find another game with people more equally geared as you.
The solution to this is for you to find another game with people more equally geared as you.
Or quit being a greedy $%^# and group for the social aspects and not how you might benefit from it. I think all this will do is help weed out those people that we really wouldn't want to play with anyway.
EDIT: Not saying that to you specifically, btw. Just generalizing.
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maybe a wiz like: http://us.battle.net...YPgO!bfc!ZZZZcc for a ranged heavy group
or a monk like: http://us.battle.net...QYXk!bcV!cbcaZa for a melee heavy group
They can ignore the damage stats, bring mass mf, utility, and slightly irrelevant damage to the group, letting the other 3 people kill quickly and focus on damage stats while they maintain control or buff/heal, and benefit the overall yield of the group. Sort of similar to a healing role in other MMO's.
Speaking on a purely hypothetical soapbox, if a top tiered MF/Utility player has 1600-2000 mf, and the utility to carry 3 glass cannon/ zero MF types through inferno, you're going to yield a ton of shinies. It's my (educated) guess that this type of person would be in extremely high demand for group play.
You call it socialism, I call it specialized labor.
This way, you all still benefit, but now you don't have to worry that the character with the highest MF got the killing blow and everyone gets an equal share of the loot. I think it's meant to foster cooperativeness rather than being alone.
If you think about it, it makes it so that groups working together to get a lot of items don't have one ore two characters being less effective because they are the MF mules while the other 2 have fun killing and surviving. This way you can all share in the MF gear and just play how you want to.
Sadly, it's a system that may not be suited for random group play, but will be much better for playing with friends. This is how the Co-op system in general feels, though. As groups will have a split of 4 people getting loot and sharing, but randoms pretty much just horde it all.
I think the problem you're having with the MF system is actually not a MF problem, it's the random groups don't really do you much good problem. Unless you just like playing with more people in general.. then yeah, it's all gravy. or something.
obviously theres going to be a sweet spot of magic find vs stat gear that will make things go smoothly while farming. if things are going to be as rough as they say in inferno and youre stacking nothing but MF sure youll be contributing if your party can even kill anything or kill at a decent pace.
oh and as far as sharing MF? youve always had to share group dps / survivability what makes this any different?
If MF/GF are included with combat stats then you will either have leechers or moochers.
No offense, but you should change your mind on this by about 180° as many others have already stated. And that's not a matter of opinion. Nobody will leech off your mf. You leech off their damage! If you also deal more damage (or "contribute more to the killing"), you should (and would) abandon the game anyway, that's like a lvl50 carrying lvl20s, who'd do that in a public game?
But while damage and other combat contribution is shared automatically among the group, the rewards are not. And why would anyone in a group deserve more loot than anyone else? Especially someone who sacrifices combat contribution? Fairness in this regard can only be achieved this way and it was brilliant of Blizz to come up with this. Well, actually it was common sense, but amazing nevertheless.
By the way, what's your motivation to mf in a public game in the first place? It's not like D2, where you would get more drops off a single mob if only there are more players in the game. The mob drops more, but you don't get it, so it only takes longer if you go on your own. And if you don't go on your own, see above.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
That's where you are wrong. It's supposed to encourage you to go into a group with a more group-focused mind set. In other words, everyone brings something to the table. Use multiplayer for its social aspects and not as just a buff to your speed/killing power. Truly WANT to game with other people outside of it just being convenient and you will not see a problem with sharing.
EDIT: With that said, I'll probably going through at least Normal in Single simply due to the fact that I want to immerse myself in the story and don't need to get grouped with someone that has already done it or doesnt care and feels the need to skip it. More than likely, one playthrough with each character in singleplayer, due to the fact that reactions/dialogue changes due to personality.
If you aren't ridiculously stacking MF, i.e. you have "kill gear" with a MF frosting, it is likely that other characters will be geared in a similar manner. So someone mentioned one affix on each item being MF. If you're giving up so little kill power for MF, why assume that everyone ISN'T doing the same thing?
If there is a kill rate cost to MF, then it may be that +X damage stat is worth the same as +X magic find as far as your rate of obtaining (good) items is concerned.
As a member of a group, you could evaluate it such that each player is merely an itemslot. If there were one item that had +1000 MF, but all your other items gave +1000 killy-ness each for +3000 total (4 players, 4 items for simplicity), it would be the same as wearing 4 items with +250 MF +750 killy-ness. This is equivalent to 1 MF stacker in a group with 3 DPS stackers, or a group of 4 players with a balance of stats. It's the same net items/time for everyone involved.
This sharing only becomes a problem when their are disparate item levels involved. If you are willing to play with better/worse geared players, then you will be mooching/carrying according to your(or their) tolerance for each.
items per unit time= (killy-ness stats)*(mf stats)
you dont want to share your awesome MF, but you want them to use their damage to help you exploit your MF? selfish much?
Also, someone geared for damage increases the number of kills per minute, which speeds up runs and increases how often MF gets triggered. If NV gives worthwile ammounts of MF, and Inferno is as hard as it is supposed to be, it's not going to be like D2 Mephisto runs, where anyone could just gear up for MF and do speed runs over and over.
The high damage characters who make it possible to finish fights quicky without lots of extra kiting and dying deserve their cut. It doesn't make sense to be able to stack inpractical ammounts of MF and slow down runs, while getting better loot than the people doing the work.
I did almost all of my magic find runs in Diablo 2 solo as well. If I ran them with other people they were also magic finding and had gear. I won't mind averaging my mf with other mf geared people.
Please explain how someone who is focusing on MF will be doing more or equal DPS with people who are not. Assuming equal quality gear, this just doesn't make sense. And as an above poster mentioned, if you are doing more dps and have more mf then you are carrying the game and you should probably leave anyway.
I think this is a way of making magic items scarcer so the auction house makes more money.
If 4 players have 100% MF, then the group effectively *does* have 400% MF, because each player has a 100% increase in MF for their own drops *because we have individual drops*. If the drops were shared, then there would need to be a group %, such as 400% in this case, but then its unfair as only the fastest "clickers" get the items, like in D2.
I am not sure if you just misunderstand the math or you are deliberately fudging facts, but it works out just fine in 99% of cases.
There is only one case that I can see it being a bit unfair, and that is for those people who find the MOST elite gear that has the highest DPS AND good MF as a side effect, they wont be sacrificing DPS, but will be sharing their MF. Although I see this as a real corner case. In most circumstances blizzards system is fair.
#1 There is almost certainly someone else with better gear. Its not like they are carrying everyone.
#2 Differences in gear would always exist no matter what system you used.
If we are comparing different systems, then you can't consider this anyways.
Epicurus
What I mean is, lets stay you have been farming inferno for weeks at level 60, and you join a pub game with 3 other people who have just reached 60/inferno. You have high end items with say, 2000dps and 150% MF, they have 1000dps with 50% MF. Objectively you are carrying them damage wise AND MF wise, you are actually over-geared compared to them in every aspect, simply because you have been playing for longer and accumulated better items.
In this case, the argument (which I agree with BTW), that "MF and DPS are mutually exclusive" doesn't apply *in that game*.
The solution to this is for you to find another game with people more equally geared as you.
Or quit being a greedy $%^# and group for the social aspects and not how you might benefit from it. I think all this will do is help weed out those people that we really wouldn't want to play with anyway.
EDIT: Not saying that to you specifically, btw. Just generalizing.