Darkphenom... most of the examples you give of 'rares' that were harder than bosses WERE bosses. People like Lord DeSeis are bosses.
Well, at least with this example I can point out how you are exactly wrong.
there were a lot more than one or two sets in D2. Diablo and Baal were both huge pushovers in D2, hell lister, gloams and dolls were all more challenging than Baal while Obliv Knights, Iron Maiden, De Seis and Lower Resist were all more challenging than Diablo. Did that make those bosses VERY VERY anticlimatic for you?
Of 7 examples only 2 were bosses, I guess when you think 2 of 7 is most I can see why you think the things you think.
I was simply trying to point out things that were more difficult than act bosses (And all of my examples still hold true for that).
Bottom line, if Bosses have equal or better chance to drop loot boss runs *will* become the best source of loot (because dungeon + boss kill > dungeon without boss kill). Then you've just forced people to Boss runs for loot and that's bad.
Iron maiden was removed - because it wasn't just hard it was a bad mechanic(and as a caster it meant nothing to you). Lower resist on casters and MSLE I give you credit for. Dolls were annoying but nobody killed them anyways so they weren't really a concern. Gloams were only annoying if they were either MSLE or lower resist....
But no, they won't. If bosses have an equivalent chance-per-kill-time based off the boss itself(remember Blizzard CAN adjust droprates and loot tables independently) they won't be 'the only way' they'll be 'an option'. Your way means that bosses won't even BE an option. At all. I want to have the OPTION to sometimes go and kill a boss for more than just the glowy effect. I think it's RIDICULOUS that people are so against having that be an option. INCREDIBLY selfish just because THEY don't want to farm bosses at ALL for them to say that NOBODY should be able to is positively ridiculous.
Yes, I agree that if one boss is REALLY easy he shouldn't drop better than a champion, but a boss should drop loot relative to the time it takes to kill it. So Skeleton king right now on average takes about 5-10 times longer on normal to kill than a champ, so his loot should be about say 6 times higher droprate. On inferno if Skeleton King takes 1.2-1.4 times as long as a champ to kill then he should drop say 1.25 times higher droprate than a champ. If, say, the end boss of act 1 ends up being really easy and taking about the same time to kill as a champ on inferno - then he should drop about the same loot. The same rules should be applied accros the board. EVERY BOSS should drop loot proportional to champions based off of the average kill time for that boss.
And again I don't think there is really ANY chance of finding 'zero champs' when farming. I've played a bunch more and I still can't even think of one ACTUAL dungeon that didn't have at least 2. And most of the time 3-4.
If bosses have an equivalent chance-per-kill-time based off the boss itself
No, simply based off Killtime is BAD because you can makeup a lot of that time due to tailor made characters and static location. Drop chance needs to be based off kill time, difficulty AND time to locate. *IF* bosses are easier because you can find them a lot faster than champions they need to reduce their drop rates. If they are easier to kill because you can just tailor your character to take out that boss (ie stack fire/lightning resist for Diablo) then they also need to have their drop rates adjusted. I don't really care how hard/easy champs are, how random Bosses are or any of the other random crap you keep blathering about, it needs to be adjusted specifically for however they make the end game of Diablo 3.
And again I don't think there is really ANY chance of finding 'zero champs' when farming.
So what, you're calling me a liar? Seriously, 10 SK runs and ONE champ pack... It's a lot more efficient to just run SK over and over and over and over again for loot because he's always there and he always drops blue gear for you despite him taking a little longer to kill than champs. In fact by far the best way currently to get loot in the Beta is to just rush new characters to the Skeleton King repeatedly, AWESOME VARIETY OF MF PLACES WE HAVE THERE!!!
Hurray to nabs who likes to kill champions/rares. Let me add cherry on top of that slice of cake. Whats that?! THEY COME IN PAX??? OMFG? Hurray more nab friendly. Bosses getting outclassed by rares/champs? TROLOLOL, what are the odds? Like alot of other ppl mentioned earlier this totally makes the bosses not worth ur time and ur dime on even higher difficulties. And dont tell me it is and don't begin by telling me rare/champs are hard to find either cuz u and i know that it won't be the case.
Any part of u denying that is just bluffing urself. And with lesser mobility in this game nerfed TP/Enigma Removed im sure the ODDS of u running into a rare/champ is high before even getting close to a boss assuming that ur on ur way to a boss area. Don't even get me started on whether its just 1 rare/champ, god knows it might be 2 bloody packs of them in Inferno mode.
Yes i know the drops can be easily adjusted, etc etc... And honestly it just makes it seem like u ppl fancy killing weaker mobs compared to bosses(LIKE END of ACT BOSSES)and makes u ppl look like a buncha PUSSIES. Yes, we all know that boss farming gets easy after good gear but won't that just mean its easier for rares/champs as well although it being random it can't be that hard to find. And dont begin to tell me that rares/champs have greater AI behaviour/Spells than bosses. They might get random stats/spells and rarely be unkillable but then again the Risk-Reward ratio on bosses are way higher from what i can see.
And if u wanna put it another way it just means ppl who can't fight bosses well enough gets btr chances at farming gears. IN OTHER WORDS: "NOOBS REJOICE!!!".
To sum it up nicely: Not very pleased with current system for rare loots and seems more noob friendly
I can't say that I will like or dislike any of the new systems until I play the game. I just reeeeaallly hope that they get it right. D2 had some issues, but overall, they got it right. The attributes of D2 that I loved were MFing, character building, and leveling (which admittedly was kind of broken). In D3 it seems as thought they have effectively removed the character building (no attribute or skill assignments) and leveling (60 cap will be fairly easy to reach), so I hope that MFing can make up for that.
I think that increasing the quality of Champ/Uniq monster drops is a good idea because of all the points that have already been made. But, should boss drops be reduced to the point that they are no longer worthwhile? The downside of bosses dropping the best gear is that people farm them repeatedly, but that problem has at least partially been addressed by the fact that no character will be able to spam teleport. In order to get to the bosses people will have to walk, and will be killing monsters along the way. But, if I have to walk all the way to a boss, and the boss is sufficiently difficult to kill, then I expect the potential of being well rewarded. I'm not saying that boss drops should be scaled the way they are in D2, but a boss should at least drop a little better than Champ/Uniq monsters.
Another concern that I have about D3 is that, without runewords, will normal white, socketed, or ethereal items have any value? One of the things that I enjoyed doing in D2 was killing monsters all over hell looking for that superior arcon plate or ethereal colossus voulge. It's just another facet of the game that seemingly will be eliminated (along with character building, leveling, etc, etc). I just fear that D3 will lack the variety that was present in D2. And therefore lack the endgame playability.
I can't say that I will like or dislike any of the new systems until I play the game. I just reeeeaallly hope that they get it right. D2 had some issues, but overall, they got it right. The attributes of D2 that I loved were MFing, character building, and leveling (which admittedly was kind of broken). In D3 it seems as thought they have effectively removed the character building (no attribute or skill assignments) and leveling (60 cap will be fairly easy to reach), so I hope that MFing can make up for that.
I think that increasing the quality of Champ/Uniq monster drops is a good idea because of all the points that have already been made. But, should boss drops be reduced to the point that they are no longer worthwhile? The downside of bosses dropping the best gear is that people farm them repeatedly, but that problem has at least partially been addressed by the fact that no character will be able to spam teleport. In order to get to the bosses people will have to walk, and will be killing monsters along the way. But, if I have to walk all the way to a boss, and the boss is sufficiently difficult to kill, then I expect the potential of being well rewarded. I'm not saying that boss drops should be scaled the way they are in D2, but a boss should at least drop a little better than Champ/Uniq monsters.
Another concern that I have about D3 is that, without runewords, will normal white, socketed, or ethereal items have any value? One of the things that I enjoyed doing in D2 was killing monsters all over hell looking for that superior arcon plate or ethereal colossus voulge. It's just another facet of the game that seemingly will be eliminated (along with character building, leveling, etc, etc). I just fear that D3 will lack the variety that was present in D2. And therefore lack the endgame playability.
Cherd this is really an argument for another place... but Diablo 3 will have a million times more variety in terms of actual MEANINGFUL variety but a lot less of 'well I want to put 100 into str and everything else into vit' type variety.
If rare and champion monsters did have better chances to drop better loot people would still do boss runs, however i think it would be more about getting there and finding the rares then the bosses. bosses will still drop good loot so theres no reason not to just hunt down every enemy from a point till you kill the boss.
I think it's a step in the right direction to prevent so many monotonous boss runs, but they should be about equal, so the player gets to make the choice. Without the bosses giving good loot and high drop rates, there's virtually no reason to fight them again, and that sucks because the boss fight can be fun. Blizzard wants the entire game to be fun and refreshing, so it should be equal IMO.
Overall I think this is a better thing cause than it will help reduce the specfic [Insert Boss] runs. I like to think I can go anywhere in Sanctuary and potentionally receive a good item.
i dont think boss runs are completely out of the loop...
..many people still will do them, cause if they know that there is a % to find good loot, even if small, they will go after them since they know bosses are in fixed places, contrary to the champions..
..so they can try lets say, 3 boss runs, to have one sucess...
on the other hand they champions appear random, so they dont know exactly where to find them...
if the bosses had same % drop with champions, nobody would waste time wandering around for to find a champ... they would all go to the place they know for sure they find the boss, even if the boss is more difficult to kill...
thus, i believe its more balanced if the bosses have lower % for good loot than champs/rares!
no not really, boss runs are 100% out. because farming through any part of the game you could find and kill a dozen champions all with a greater chance to drop better items in the time it would take you to get to and kill 1 boss thats 100x harder to kill... lol
I'm just thinking if bosses have a LOWER % chance to drop good items, AND are harder to kill, why would anyone bother?
I am worried MFing will involve no main boss killing at all, which is very lame (to me).
I am all for killing champions and getting good items, my favorite places to MF in D2 were The Pits, CS, The Mausoleum, cows, ect...I also liked killing bosses though. I feel like if they make champions have a higher % chance to drop better items, it won't be worth it to do boss runs.
they have to kill them.... once to get through the game... lol
Fightning boss is more fun because his well scripted and have half decent AI. Rare monster are random mindless bots with super powers.
Not to mention the fact that Rare monster looks all the same (as long as they have the same proprieties) while bosses tends to be completly different fights.
After playing D3 for a while, fightning Leoric and the event just before you fight him is the only thing that kep me going. I simply can't imagine myself playing that game to kill illusionist champion bats or stuff alike (to poor AI to be fun).
you think farming the same bosses over thousands of times is more fun then farming entire acts or the whole game? lol.. cmon man.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
I really think overall this is a bad move if it stays the way it is.
I am 100% for haven the other things have a good chance to drop items, I LOVVVE the idea of being able to farm the full game to get good loot, instead of just the same boss over and over.
But this is not the way to do it... what happens when you get to the boss now of each act? It seems like the best choice would be to leave game and skip the boss!? Even if you dont skip...when you take awhile and kill a big bad act boss.. you should be thrilled, your killing as massive big guy, you know some good loot is about to drop.... now when we see these bosses were like...w/e /yawn.
Not the right move, its a step in the right direction, but not the right move.
I really think overall this is a bad move if it stays the way it is.
I am 100% for haven the other things have a good chance to drop items, I LOVVVE the idea of being able to farm the full game to get good loot, instead of just the same boss over and over.
But this is not the way to do it... what happens when you get to the boss now of each act? It seems like the best choice would be to leave game and skip the boss!? Even if you dont skip...when you take awhile and kill a big bad act boss.. you should be thrilled, your killing as massive big guy, you know some good loot is about to drop.... now when we see these bosses were like...w/e /yawn.
Not the right move, its a step in the right direction, but not the right move.
how can you progress in the game without killing act bosses? unless its a glitch thats impossible
also when you kill bosses in a lot of games it doesnt give you some amazing reward besides continuing the storyline, there is only 4 bosses total and it wont take more then 5-10 min to kill each one. so its not some huge issue to have them not drop the best gear. because even if they made the chances of them dropping the best gear that happening after only killing them once is next to zero.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
I really think overall this is a bad move if it stays the way it is.
I am 100% for haven the other things have a good chance to drop items, I LOVVVE the idea of being able to farm the full game to get good loot, instead of just the same boss over and over.
But this is not the way to do it... what happens when you get to the boss now of each act? It seems like the best choice would be to leave game and skip the boss!? Even if you dont skip...when you take awhile and kill a big bad act boss.. you should be thrilled, your killing as massive big guy, you know some good loot is about to drop.... now when we see these bosses were like...w/e /yawn.
Not the right move, its a step in the right direction, but not the right move.
how can you progress in the game without killing act bosses? unless its a glitch thats impossible
also when you kill bosses in a lot of games it doesnt give you some amazing reward besides continuing the storyline, there is only 4 bosses total and it wont take more then a few minutes to kill each one. so its not some huge issue to have them not drop the best gear. because even if they could the chances of this happening after only killing them once is next to zero.
huh? once you beat the game (inferno) you can skip anything you want and go anywhere you want....
its going to be a smarter move to skip bosses as it stands right now... as once your max level, theres nothing you want from them (unless they have a higher rune/gem drop kinda thing) but even that solution its a lame one. Bosses should be epic, and should feel epic when you kill them, with epic loot. When a little purple named dude randomly walking around has better loots... it feels lame.
Like i said, its a step in the right thinking.. just not the right solution. ='
If I know the boss isnt going to have anything, or if its going to be super low on him compared to other things, its going to feel like I killed another mini zombie... its going to feel lame and unimportant. I dont want that, I want it to feel epic.
huh? once you beat the game (inferno) you can skip anything you want and go anywhere you want....
its going to be a smarter move to skip bosses as it stands right now... as once your max level, theres nothing you want from them (unless they have a higher rune/gem drop kinda thing) but even that solution its a lame one. Bosses should be epic, and should feel epic when you kill them, with epic loot. When a little purple named dude randomly walking around has better loots... it feels lame.
Like i said, its a step in the right thinking.. just not the right solution. ='
If I know the boss isnt going to have anything, or if its going to be super low on him compared to other things, its going to feel like I killed another mini zombie... its going to feel lame and unimportant. I dont want that, I want it to feel epic.
ah i thought you meant on the first playthrough. they said they will still drop good gear just not THE best, its not like there going to drop a few white items... lol
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
huh? once you beat the game (inferno) you can skip anything you want and go anywhere you want....
its going to be a smarter move to skip bosses as it stands right now... as once your max level, theres nothing you want from them (unless they have a higher rune/gem drop kinda thing) but even that solution its a lame one. Bosses should be epic, and should feel epic when you kill them, with epic loot. When a little purple named dude randomly walking around has better loots... it feels lame.
Like i said, its a step in the right thinking.. just not the right solution. ='
If I know the boss isnt going to have anything, or if its going to be super low on him compared to other things, its going to feel like I killed another mini zombie... its going to feel lame and unimportant. I dont want that, I want it to feel epic.
ah i thought you meant on the first playthrough. they said they will still drop good gear just not THE best, its not like there going to drop a few white items... lol
Like I said, its 100% a step in the right direction, but you get what I mean though? I still want to feel that bosses are important. The end goal (for me) is to get the best gear... now, when I kill a boss... I well, I dont care. I dont want it to be like that. I want bosses to be fun/hard/epic. I want when i kill it, to be HELL YEAH, and see all that loot falling to the ground, and be crossing my fingers, hoping.
I think if you complete X% of the act, the boss should then have the same chance to drop the loot.
or maybe make it so bosses can drop Slot A, B and C, while all other slots have the high chance from the other mobs... just something to make me feel excited for when that big boy falls down.
Like I said, its 100% a step in the right direction, but you get what I mean though? I still want to feel that bosses are important. The end goal (for me) is to get the best gear... now, when I kill a boss... I well, I dont care. I dont want it to be like that. I want bosses to be fun/hard/epic. I want when i kill it, to be HELL YEAH, and see all that loot falling to the ground, and be crossing my fingers, hoping.
I think if you complete X% of the act, the boss should then have the same chance to drop the loot.
or maybe make it so bosses can drop Slot A, B and C, while all other slots have the high chance from the other mobs... just something to make me feel excited for when that big boy falls down.
i feel we had this exact conversation a few pages back? lol...
and we agreed bosses should be 100x harder then champs but also drop the same loot, so people still wont farm bosses as it would be impractical but also give you that loot when the boss's die.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
Iron maiden was removed - because it wasn't just hard it was a bad mechanic(and as a caster it meant nothing to you). Lower resist on casters and MSLE I give you credit for. Dolls were annoying but nobody killed them anyways so they weren't really a concern. Gloams were only annoying if they were either MSLE or lower resist....
But no, they won't. If bosses have an equivalent chance-per-kill-time based off the boss itself(remember Blizzard CAN adjust droprates and loot tables independently) they won't be 'the only way' they'll be 'an option'. Your way means that bosses won't even BE an option. At all. I want to have the OPTION to sometimes go and kill a boss for more than just the glowy effect. I think it's RIDICULOUS that people are so against having that be an option. INCREDIBLY selfish just because THEY don't want to farm bosses at ALL for them to say that NOBODY should be able to is positively ridiculous.
Yes, I agree that if one boss is REALLY easy he shouldn't drop better than a champion, but a boss should drop loot relative to the time it takes to kill it. So Skeleton king right now on average takes about 5-10 times longer on normal to kill than a champ, so his loot should be about say 6 times higher droprate. On inferno if Skeleton King takes 1.2-1.4 times as long as a champ to kill then he should drop say 1.25 times higher droprate than a champ. If, say, the end boss of act 1 ends up being really easy and taking about the same time to kill as a champ on inferno - then he should drop about the same loot. The same rules should be applied accros the board. EVERY BOSS should drop loot proportional to champions based off of the average kill time for that boss.
And again I don't think there is really ANY chance of finding 'zero champs' when farming. I've played a bunch more and I still can't even think of one ACTUAL dungeon that didn't have at least 2. And most of the time 3-4.
No, simply based off Killtime is BAD because you can makeup a lot of that time due to tailor made characters and static location. Drop chance needs to be based off kill time, difficulty AND time to locate. *IF* bosses are easier because you can find them a lot faster than champions they need to reduce their drop rates. If they are easier to kill because you can just tailor your character to take out that boss (ie stack fire/lightning resist for Diablo) then they also need to have their drop rates adjusted. I don't really care how hard/easy champs are, how random Bosses are or any of the other random crap you keep blathering about, it needs to be adjusted specifically for however they make the end game of Diablo 3.
So what, you're calling me a liar? Seriously, 10 SK runs and ONE champ pack... It's a lot more efficient to just run SK over and over and over and over again for loot because he's always there and he always drops blue gear for you despite him taking a little longer to kill than champs. In fact by far the best way currently to get loot in the Beta is to just rush new characters to the Skeleton King repeatedly, AWESOME VARIETY OF MF PLACES WE HAVE THERE!!!
Any part of u denying that is just bluffing urself. And with lesser mobility in this game nerfed TP/Enigma Removed im sure the ODDS of u running into a rare/champ is high before even getting close to a boss assuming that ur on ur way to a boss area. Don't even get me started on whether its just 1 rare/champ, god knows it might be 2 bloody packs of them in Inferno mode.
Yes i know the drops can be easily adjusted, etc etc... And honestly it just makes it seem like u ppl fancy killing weaker mobs compared to bosses(LIKE END of ACT BOSSES)and makes u ppl look like a buncha PUSSIES. Yes, we all know that boss farming gets easy after good gear but won't that just mean its easier for rares/champs as well although it being random it can't be that hard to find. And dont begin to tell me that rares/champs have greater AI behaviour/Spells than bosses. They might get random stats/spells and rarely be unkillable but then again the Risk-Reward ratio on bosses are way higher from what i can see.
And if u wanna put it another way it just means ppl who can't fight bosses well enough gets btr chances at farming gears. IN OTHER WORDS: "NOOBS REJOICE!!!".
To sum it up nicely: Not very pleased with current system for rare loots and seems more noob friendly
I think that increasing the quality of Champ/Uniq monster drops is a good idea because of all the points that have already been made. But, should boss drops be reduced to the point that they are no longer worthwhile? The downside of bosses dropping the best gear is that people farm them repeatedly, but that problem has at least partially been addressed by the fact that no character will be able to spam teleport. In order to get to the bosses people will have to walk, and will be killing monsters along the way. But, if I have to walk all the way to a boss, and the boss is sufficiently difficult to kill, then I expect the potential of being well rewarded. I'm not saying that boss drops should be scaled the way they are in D2, but a boss should at least drop a little better than Champ/Uniq monsters.
Another concern that I have about D3 is that, without runewords, will normal white, socketed, or ethereal items have any value? One of the things that I enjoyed doing in D2 was killing monsters all over hell looking for that superior arcon plate or ethereal colossus voulge. It's just another facet of the game that seemingly will be eliminated (along with character building, leveling, etc, etc). I just fear that D3 will lack the variety that was present in D2. And therefore lack the endgame playability.
Cherd this is really an argument for another place... but Diablo 3 will have a million times more variety in terms of actual MEANINGFUL variety but a lot less of 'well I want to put 100 into str and everything else into vit' type variety.
no not really, boss runs are 100% out. because farming through any part of the game you could find and kill a dozen champions all with a greater chance to drop better items in the time it would take you to get to and kill 1 boss thats 100x harder to kill... lol
they have to kill them.... once to get through the game... lol
you think farming the same bosses over thousands of times is more fun then farming entire acts or the whole game? lol.. cmon man.
I am 100% for haven the other things have a good chance to drop items, I LOVVVE the idea of being able to farm the full game to get good loot, instead of just the same boss over and over.
But this is not the way to do it... what happens when you get to the boss now of each act? It seems like the best choice would be to leave game and skip the boss!? Even if you dont skip...when you take awhile and kill a big bad act boss.. you should be thrilled, your killing as massive big guy, you know some good loot is about to drop.... now when we see these bosses were like...w/e /yawn.
Not the right move, its a step in the right direction, but not the right move.
how can you progress in the game without killing act bosses? unless its a glitch thats impossible
also when you kill bosses in a lot of games it doesnt give you some amazing reward besides continuing the storyline, there is only 4 bosses total and it wont take more then 5-10 min to kill each one. so its not some huge issue to have them not drop the best gear. because even if they made the chances of them dropping the best gear that happening after only killing them once is next to zero.
huh? once you beat the game (inferno) you can skip anything you want and go anywhere you want....
its going to be a smarter move to skip bosses as it stands right now... as once your max level, theres nothing you want from them (unless they have a higher rune/gem drop kinda thing) but even that solution its a lame one. Bosses should be epic, and should feel epic when you kill them, with epic loot. When a little purple named dude randomly walking around has better loots... it feels lame.
Like i said, its a step in the right thinking.. just not the right solution. ='
If I know the boss isnt going to have anything, or if its going to be super low on him compared to other things, its going to feel like I killed another mini zombie... its going to feel lame and unimportant. I dont want that, I want it to feel epic.
ah i thought you meant on the first playthrough. they said they will still drop good gear just not THE best, its not like there going to drop a few white items... lol
Like I said, its 100% a step in the right direction, but you get what I mean though? I still want to feel that bosses are important. The end goal (for me) is to get the best gear... now, when I kill a boss... I well, I dont care. I dont want it to be like that. I want bosses to be fun/hard/epic. I want when i kill it, to be HELL YEAH, and see all that loot falling to the ground, and be crossing my fingers, hoping.
I think if you complete X% of the act, the boss should then have the same chance to drop the loot.
or maybe make it so bosses can drop Slot A, B and C, while all other slots have the high chance from the other mobs... just something to make me feel excited for when that big boy falls down.
i feel we had this exact conversation a few pages back? lol...
and we agreed bosses should be 100x harder then champs but also drop the same loot, so people still wont farm bosses as it would be impractical but also give you that loot when the boss's die.
(just did, must have been in another thread)
as em i. if its more then 3 pages in a thread i just read the first n last page. lol