Enough dps can overcome being a glass cannon. If i turn a corner and see 3 soul lashers, chances are good I'll die. But then i just run back and hit smokescreen before i turn that corner and blow them up before smoke ends. Fast affix is the worse for me, so i run caltrops with tortuous ground just for this. It isn't required, but with 4 piece nats i can lay it endlessly and assure that nothing gets into melee range. Tactical advantage is also wonderful to get distance and positioning after using smokescreen. A frost damage bow (with bonus chance to fear/stun/blind/freeze on hit) on a scoundrel with multishot is also great at controlling the mobs during battle.
I have never seen the old NT hit more than 3 times, and that was on giant sized mobs like Azmodan while they were being tanked and not chasing me. The only exception being missile dampening bosses, which one NT could kill. As to DH being mostly invincible, that lasted until they cut SS in half. I don't think DH is OP right now at all, but yes, we were OP and needed to be balanced.
I actually tested this very same issue for a discussion in another thread on these boards concerning the functionality of sharpshooter and nether. Same skill, same mob (azmodan). Nether hit Azmodan ... exactly 4 times.
They should have just reduced the damage but kept the multi-hit mechanic of the skill
They did this. They called it "Ball Lightning". Since 2 spells doing the exact same thing with the exact same damage is absolutely retarded, they did the alternative - removing the multitarget thing.
oh and btw, they still havent manged to fix the freaking tooltip of ball lightning. it still labels as 155% weapon damage, just as NT, which still does about double the damage per hit.
No. If they had reduced nether damage from 155% WD to around 90% WD and retained its multi-hit mechanic, there would be enough diversity between these skills to make them useful depending on the situation. Nether would still do more damage than ball lightning if it lands, but ball lightning would have the much larger aoe radius. Nether would still be quite efficient at front-loading damage on mobs with large hitboxes like act bosses, and ball lightning would regain its role as an aoe room clearer. Instead, the nerf has made nether mathematically inferior to ball lightning in every way. Now, both skills do the same damage, but ball lightning has twice the aoe coverage. Explain to me why anyone would use nether over ball lightning after the nerf.
And Multishot hits harder than Nether Tentacles ever did, and it goes through Invulnerable minions just the same
The ONLY benefit MS has over EA is that you don't need to use it intelligently because its just one massive spread of arrows. But that's it.
This is actually pretty substantial. Multishot will hit an entire quadrant of your screen instantaneously. Nether does its aoe in a straight line, but whats worse is that it moves so freaking slow. You WILL miss, and you will miss often with nether. If you're out in the open, forget it. You'll miss more than half of your nether shots unless you get insanely close to the mobs. It's doable in confined places with halls and doorways, but even then it's no sure thing. Nether's saving grace was its ability to hit multiple times. Now, I don't really see a role that nether can fill that's not done better by another skill.
The people with these insane 250k dps are still doing very good, if not even better with money you've been able to farm easily to buy 4pc Natalya. It just hurts the other DH. Now, I am not saying we're weak in any regard, we're one of the best solo'n heroes in the game by far. However, after watching 400k geared 1h+1shield barbs taking on content I would get destroyed on, it can get pretty depressing with 20k+ repair bills.
That's just part of human psychology -- we want what we can't have/can't do. My friend's monk is running around with 12k dps. Sure, he can tank stuff all day, he just can't kill a damn thing. It takes him an hour and a half to clear 1, maybe 2 dungeons. In the same amount of time, i can clear stonefront > keep levels 1 through 3 > ghom > battlefields > bridge of korsik > underbridge > siegebreaker. I think we ended up with the better deal.
variation how the skill works and looks yes , can't understand how this is hard to understand, you also have a life leech
Because it's a ridiculous suggestion and I'm kind of shocked you're sticking to your guns on this. They can make demon hunters move at half movespeed too to give the classes "variation" but i don't think that idea will go over very well. If you want variety in the skills, keep it to cosmetics -- nether is already a massive dimensional cloud with tentacles squirming from it -- it has enough variety.
Making the projectile move at half speed is a tangible handicap, one that needs to be made up elsewhere in the skill's mechanic. With ball lightning, this is made up by allowing the skill a massive aoe and the ability to hit multiple targets multiple times. By keeping the slow nether projectile speed yet removing the skill's ability to hit multiple times, they've in effect kept the skill's handicap but removed the mechanic that compensated for this handicap. The fact that you would bring in the .0000000002% lifesteal on nether to buttress your argument tells me you don't really have much of an argument in the first place.
nether tentacle was a bugfix you know not a nerf =)
Lol that's a bald-face lie and Blizzard knows it. Nether's projectile speed crawls along at a snail's pace for a reason -- it was meant to hit multiple targets multiple times. They should have just reduced the damage but kept the multi-hit mechanic of the skill, or if they're going to remove the multi-hit then at least speed the projectile up to match the other runes. The way the skill works right now is just absolutely retarded.
so you think being able to cast an ability 10x times for 310% weapon damage with your resource pool was working as intended =) , Dh's need to look around at other classes sometimes and compare percentages =)
The mechanic of the skill was working as intended. The DPS of the skill was FUBAR, and that's blizzard's fault. Explain to me why nether moves so slow (just like ball lightning) if it wasn't meant to hit multiple targets multiple times (just like ball lightning). All Blizzard had to do was nerf the damage. Instead, they removed the multi-hit mechanic (the entire reason for the skill moving so slow in the first place) and broke the skill's intended design. I don't see how what I'm saying is at all difficult to comprehend.
variation between skills ...
So nether does the same damage as basic un-runed elemental arrow but moves half as fast just to be different? Glad we cleared that up.
I dont think DH is broken. However, the fact Blizzard makes everything possible to kill glass cannon builds eventhough it was failure on their part because of how they equiped DHs with defensive skills. The fact that there is not a single skill, active or passive, that help you survive a hit is easy give away that Blizzard themselves wanted DHs to be played as hide-a-kill class. When players develop that idea into perfection by creating glass cannon build & gear totaly focused on killing stuff before it kills you, it is suddenly an issue. They nerfed outgoing damage in later acts to help every class in D3 yet they have not done anything to help DH to survive.
This isn't even close to being true anymore. I have 14k hp and only like 200 resist all, and i can tank multiple spearmen/quillbeast hits in act 3 with ease with gloom. I've paid absolutely no attention to defense at all, and yet i can still tank multiple hits from most ranged mobs with just gloom. A demon hunter that puts some emphasis on defense should be able to waltz through the game tanking most of the content with gloom alone.
So lets go through this again.
I said Blizzard did nothing for DH specifically to survive. The overall nerf of outgoing damage is valid for everyone. DH has still 0 skills helping us survive. I can list few skills from alts I play to make sure you get my point: barbarian shouts + runes boosting the effect or increasing resistances, wizards armors, etc.
Shadow power - Gloom is probably the worst thing that ever happened to DH. It goes directly against the spirit of the class, which should be agile damage dealer. With broken 4P Natalyas set bonus, you can just stand there like a turret. All you need is enough dps to kill the stuff in 20-30 seconds of non-stop glooming. Amazing!
It is also funny you mention glass cannon and tanking in the same sentence. Anyone can take a hit or two with 65% damage reduction. My DH has 47k HP, 280allres (390 physical) and 41k DPS without SS. I could probably take 2 hit from tremor or molok's fireball with SP/Gloom up. Anyway, I was not talking about such situation.
If you have a point, you're not communicating it very well. I still don't understand what you're trying to say. You say we have zero skills to help us survive but then in the next sentence you mention gloom, the very skill that does the job that you claim doesn't exist. And fyi, I was using gloom long before i got 4 piece nats just to deal with damage reflect mobs. It doesn't boost your armor, or your resists, but it gives you 65% damage reduction and more than enough life steal to negate damage reflect and recover lost hp. I don't understand how this doesn't count as a skill that helps us to survive. As to gloom going against "the spirit of the class" ... lol i don't know what to say to that.
nether tentacle was a bugfix you know not a nerf =)
Lol that's a bald-face lie and Blizzard knows it. Nether's projectile speed crawls along at a snail's pace for a reason -- it was meant to hit multiple targets multiple times. They should have just reduced the damage but kept the multi-hit mechanic of the skill, or if they're going to remove the multi-hit then at least speed the projectile up to match the other runes. The way the skill works right now is just absolutely retarded.
so you think being able to cast an ability 10x times for 310% weapon damage with your resource pool was working as intended =) , Dh's need to look around at other classes sometimes and compare percentages =)
The mechanic of the skill was working as intended. The DPS of the skill was FUBAR, and that's blizzard's fault. Explain to me why nether moves so slow (just like ball lightning) if it wasn't meant to hit multiple targets multiple times (just like ball lightning). All Blizzard had to do was nerf the damage. Instead, they removed the multi-hit mechanic (the entire reason for the skill moving so slow in the first place) and broke the skill's intended design. I don't see how what I'm saying is at all difficult to comprehend.
I dont think DH is broken. However, the fact Blizzard makes everything possible to kill glass cannon builds eventhough it was failure on their part because of how they equiped DHs with defensive skills. The fact that there is not a single skill, active or passive, that help you survive a hit is easy give away that Blizzard themselves wanted DHs to be played as hide-a-kill class. When players develop that idea into perfection by creating glass cannon build & gear totaly focused on killing stuff before it kills you, it is suddenly an issue. They nerfed outgoing damage in later acts to help every class in D3 yet they have not done anything to help DH to survive.
This isn't even close to being true anymore. I have 14k hp and only like 200 resist all, and i can tank multiple spearmen/quillbeast hits in act 3 with ease with gloom. I've paid absolutely no attention to defense at all, and yet i can still tank multiple hits from most ranged mobs with just gloom. A demon hunter that puts some emphasis on defense should be able to waltz through the game tanking most of the content with gloom alone.
Our higher damage also is possible only because of two things, being still able to play glass-cannonish, and multiple damage boosting passives. We have same gear and same scaling beside those as every other class in game, it's just that we can stack multiple dps passives to cross buff them, instead paying with not having single one that would decrease damage we take, be it by flat reduction, or boost to armor/resist.
I agree, but you forgot being able to use an offhand even while using a 2 hander -- that's our biggest advantage. Doesn't really matter why we're op. The fact is, we are still vastly more powerful than any other class.
How exactly ias nerf hurts DH more than other classes? It's flat dps gain for every single class. It's side effects that made it 'over the line' for Blizzard, like LoH, Spirit generation/knockbacking finishers or %proc items/spells. None of this applies to DH specifically since it was percentage that heavily depended on your base damage in first place.
First, re-read what i said, i never stated that it hurts the DH more than the other classes. However, with that said, it DOES hurt us more than anyone else. Why you ask? Because all IAS does is act as a MULTIPLIER on your base dps. Since we have the highest base dps, a reduction in IAS results in a higher loss in net dps. Case in point, Athene went from 210k dps without sharpshooter to 140k dps without sharpshooter after the nerf. Think about that -- he lost 70k dps . Have you even met anyone that's not a demon hunter that even HAS 70k dps? This is also true if crit damage or crit % is nerfed; since we have the most dps out of anyone, we have the most dps to lose.
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I actually tested this very same issue for a discussion in another thread on these boards concerning the functionality of sharpshooter and nether. Same skill, same mob (azmodan). Nether hit Azmodan ... exactly 4 times.
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No. If they had reduced nether damage from 155% WD to around 90% WD and retained its multi-hit mechanic, there would be enough diversity between these skills to make them useful depending on the situation. Nether would still do more damage than ball lightning if it lands, but ball lightning would have the much larger aoe radius. Nether would still be quite efficient at front-loading damage on mobs with large hitboxes like act bosses, and ball lightning would regain its role as an aoe room clearer. Instead, the nerf has made nether mathematically inferior to ball lightning in every way. Now, both skills do the same damage, but ball lightning has twice the aoe coverage. Explain to me why anyone would use nether over ball lightning after the nerf.
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This is actually pretty substantial. Multishot will hit an entire quadrant of your screen instantaneously. Nether does its aoe in a straight line, but whats worse is that it moves so freaking slow. You WILL miss, and you will miss often with nether. If you're out in the open, forget it. You'll miss more than half of your nether shots unless you get insanely close to the mobs. It's doable in confined places with halls and doorways, but even then it's no sure thing. Nether's saving grace was its ability to hit multiple times. Now, I don't really see a role that nether can fill that's not done better by another skill.
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That's just part of human psychology -- we want what we can't have/can't do. My friend's monk is running around with 12k dps. Sure, he can tank stuff all day, he just can't kill a damn thing. It takes him an hour and a half to clear 1, maybe 2 dungeons. In the same amount of time, i can clear stonefront > keep levels 1 through 3 > ghom > battlefields > bridge of korsik > underbridge > siegebreaker. I think we ended up with the better deal.
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Because it's a ridiculous suggestion and I'm kind of shocked you're sticking to your guns on this. They can make demon hunters move at half movespeed too to give the classes "variation" but i don't think that idea will go over very well. If you want variety in the skills, keep it to cosmetics -- nether is already a massive dimensional cloud with tentacles squirming from it -- it has enough variety.
Making the projectile move at half speed is a tangible handicap, one that needs to be made up elsewhere in the skill's mechanic. With ball lightning, this is made up by allowing the skill a massive aoe and the ability to hit multiple targets multiple times. By keeping the slow nether projectile speed yet removing the skill's ability to hit multiple times, they've in effect kept the skill's handicap but removed the mechanic that compensated for this handicap. The fact that you would bring in the .0000000002% lifesteal on nether to buttress your argument tells me you don't really have much of an argument in the first place.
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So nether does the same damage as basic un-runed elemental arrow but moves half as fast just to be different? Glad we cleared that up.
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If you have a point, you're not communicating it very well. I still don't understand what you're trying to say. You say we have zero skills to help us survive but then in the next sentence you mention gloom, the very skill that does the job that you claim doesn't exist. And fyi, I was using gloom long before i got 4 piece nats just to deal with damage reflect mobs. It doesn't boost your armor, or your resists, but it gives you 65% damage reduction and more than enough life steal to negate damage reflect and recover lost hp. I don't understand how this doesn't count as a skill that helps us to survive. As to gloom going against "the spirit of the class" ... lol i don't know what to say to that.
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The mechanic of the skill was working as intended. The DPS of the skill was FUBAR, and that's blizzard's fault. Explain to me why nether moves so slow (just like ball lightning) if it wasn't meant to hit multiple targets multiple times (just like ball lightning). All Blizzard had to do was nerf the damage. Instead, they removed the multi-hit mechanic (the entire reason for the skill moving so slow in the first place) and broke the skill's intended design. I don't see how what I'm saying is at all difficult to comprehend.
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This isn't even close to being true anymore. I have 14k hp and only like 200 resist all, and i can tank multiple spearmen/quillbeast hits in act 3 with ease with gloom. I've paid absolutely no attention to defense at all, and yet i can still tank multiple hits from most ranged mobs with just gloom. A demon hunter that puts some emphasis on defense should be able to waltz through the game tanking most of the content with gloom alone.
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I agree, but you forgot being able to use an offhand even while using a 2 hander -- that's our biggest advantage. Doesn't really matter why we're op. The fact is, we are still vastly more powerful than any other class.
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First, re-read what i said, i never stated that it hurts the DH more than the other classes. However, with that said, it DOES hurt us more than anyone else. Why you ask? Because all IAS does is act as a MULTIPLIER on your base dps. Since we have the highest base dps, a reduction in IAS results in a higher loss in net dps. Case in point, Athene went from 210k dps without sharpshooter to 140k dps without sharpshooter after the nerf. Think about that -- he lost 70k dps . Have you even met anyone that's not a demon hunter that even HAS 70k dps? This is also true if crit damage or crit % is nerfed; since we have the most dps out of anyone, we have the most dps to lose.