The funny thing is: a lot of the problems in PoE seem to stem from having a low budget, i.e., the lower-than-desirable fluidity of the combat system
Well, SWTOR which probably has one of the largest budgets ever for a game, had some of the least fluid gameplay I have ever seen*.
I think its more a matter of many designers not understanding how fluidity makes their games better.
That is probably one of the reasons so many WoW clones have failed miserably. No matter what else they do, nearly all of them offer much less fluid combat than WoW. And people get turned off by it.
*They literally admitted that they purposefully had made their game less fluid, so people could see all their "awesome animations". Not allowing people to switch from one skill to another, before the full animation had finished. Sigh.
I'm very impressed with Path of Exile so far.
I started playing a few days ago and find myself increasingly more intrigued as I progress. The itemization is brilliant and the passive skills idea is very cool. The changes to your character may be small with passives, but it feels really rewarding.
When I first started playing, I wasn't feeling much lag and played without problem for several hours. However, today it's very laggy and the gameplay is too choppy to really progress.
Haven't had any problems playing PoE on my macbook air with Parallels.
I've forgotten all about Diablo 3 for now. Maybe I'll try it again in a year or two. But PoE, only being in beta and being more exciting than D3 (in my opinion), is a real game to consider playing when it fully releases. I can only imagine how awesome it's going to be.
My first impressions were a little different. Passive skill tree indeed is huge and seem like a lot of diversity, but while I was checking skills all I saw was "+stat , +%health, +minions, +shield, +some specific dmg", only few skills seemed like they really changed alot (like reducing health to 1 and buffing shield), and then I wasn't feeling so impressed. It simply looks like a very overcomplicated system for no reason at all.
The active skill system (gems), again, feels unnecesary overcomplicated and in fact doesn't differ much from D3. You can take out the gem just like you can swap skills, you can buff the skills just like picking different rune. Leveling gems doesn't seem to give anything else than more damage and mana cost. Random gem socket colors in armor/weapon pieces seems like a wierd mechanic that makes less gear actually usable, at least at the beginnings of the game.
The thing I really didn't like one bit was the currency. There wouldn't be much difference if PoE had every of it's "currency items" just buyable with gold. Overcomplicated again. Also inventory seems extremely small, just like in D2, and honestly there was a reason why one of the more popular mods was increasing the size of it. At least stash is big.
Overall the game feels ok. I liked properly randomized maps, dark, scary environments and I will definitely play PoE from time to time. I hope some day, next ARPG game will strike balance between unnecesary overcomplications of PoE and oversimplification of D3.
What could i say... if such a simple game is too complicated for you... Plus you don't even see reasons for their choice of economy... And huge difference between gems in PoE and runes in D3... I feel sorry for you.
What could i say... if such a simple game is too complicated for you... Plus you don't even see reasons for their choice of economy... And huge difference between gems in PoE and runes in D3... I feel sorry for you.
It *definitely* cannot be called a simple game. It is possibly the most complex game I've played in years (not a bad thing in my opinion)
Not really necessary to attack and condescend to the man for his opinions. The guy leans more towards the simple D3 mechanics while those of us who enjoy complex theory-crafting and builds are enjoying PoE. To each their own.
I have a feeling there are a lot of people out there who don't want to have to search a Wiki page to figure out basic mechanics. The game for them is D3.
But the game for me right now is PoE until D3 steps up its' endgame.
Path of Exile has my full attention - and it has since about 2 months ago.
I am one of the players who felt a bit betrayed (even though i defended it most of the way through Development) by Blizzard's massive change to the ARPG genre, and when asked about it only saying "we feel that this is how people should be playing".
They sold a TON of copies, so I can't really say they had it wrong, but to take somthing as basic (IMO) to this genre as having replaying/remaking/rebuilding/starting over with new characters be un-needed, was a bit of a slap in the face.
So, in short, for the group of people (like me) who think:
"D3 is too simple"
"D3 shouldn't have gotten rid of stat points"
"D3 shouldn't have gotten rid of skill points"
"D3 shouldn't have added a RMAH"
"D3 shouldn't have made re-rolling pointless / unneeded"
"D3 shouldn't have simplified itemization to the point of absuridty"
.. for those people, PoE will hit the sweet spot. I love it so far!
But, on a side note, the potential for D3 is still SUPER high in my opinion. As others have said, and there is no denying, the "nuts and bolts" of Diablo 3 are IONS beyond path of exile. The smooth and satisfying combat in Diablo 3 are unmatched. They just need to build a better game around the engine.
Whatever, please don't forget: simplyfying things opens up the market for a considerable huger playerbase.
That type of thinking is what got us to where we are in the videogame industry.
Yepp, completly agree.
Over simplyfying to a degree where you dont have to use your brain anymore isnt good at all.
Games need to be hard to master Thats the whole fun^^
As one of the so called "brainless noob player", here is my perception of "fun":
For me, playing video games is a lot like having a beer. Do I feel like to solve a system of linear equations in order to open the bottle? No. As a research scientist, solving hard problems is part of the job description. Therefore I prefer giving my limited brain a break while relaxing. I really enjoy the idea of mindlessly smashing monsters (with D3's awesome combat system) 99% percent of the time and only once in a while (1% of the time) stop to think about how can I improve (with no punishment on making "bad" skill/rune decisions). I don't mind being "sub-optimal" or "slow" in my farming process, since I play this game just for the relaxation. I also have long term motivation for this game, smashing foes once in a while with my character slowly progressing. And I assume there are quite a few players like me.
Therefore, I don't think the existence of "oversimplifying games" is a bad thing, and I am very happy that there are such high quality games like D3 for me to play.
Games aren't supposed to be hard to be enjoyed. There's supposed to be depth - that makes them successful. Putting up restrictions on everything makes the game inherently deep, but overly complex, therefore unwelcoming. Opening up almost everything to players makes the game much more welcoming to new people, while keeping a theorycrafting part for the enthusiastic "depth" crowd.
Both a super complex game and a very opened game can both be incredibly deep, but at the end of the day the hardcore theorycrafting crowd will reverse engineer all the complexity and invent cookie cutter options for lazier or not inventive people. Soon those options will overwhelm all the diversity that game companies have presented and their job from here on out is to keep balancing the different options so that a larger part of the depth is kept, while the complexity is left untouched.
My game examples here are very obviously PoE and D3. The difference that I gave as an example above is that Diablo 3 will sell more no matter the marketing because it's welcoming to new players, but having lots of options while the game progresses. Path of Exile will be successful to its crowd of theorycrafters because of the overcomplexity of things, but the depth will be lost to new players because of said complexity and the game is doomed to suffer a smaller, more dedicated crowd. The real difference is that Blizzard will have more money to support their servers and keep doing large updates and introducing expansions with lots of time for polish and tests for complexity vs depth. GGG will have smaller support, relying much more on their enthusiastic crowd, having smaller staff that will push features that are fun for the dedicated people, but will strengthen the complexity in order to satisfy them in spite the game losing population from new players that are feeling lost in said complexity.
Sorry for the sometimes long sentences.
And of course, take that as an opinion. I can't say I know too much about game design. Just my philosophy.
Eh, wasn't thrilled. It seemed to me to be a poor mix of Diablo 1 and 2.
My biggest issues were combat, graphics, and the story.
As others have said, I thought the combat was clunky. I feel this is more important than some are saying ("oh, I'd rather have good mechanics than combat") because combat is SO much of an ARPG. The skills also didn't seem to be varied. Maybe that was cause I didn't play far enough, or because of my character choice (duelist). I also felt the enemy variety wasn't great.
The graphics - oh sure, it was visually dark (as in, not bright enough), but that also meant it was INCREDIBLY dull. Again, maybe it gets way better in late game, but the early part was just bland muddy shore, bland washed out shore, dark boring cave (yeah, that's what a cave really looks like, boring), dark boring jail (I personally didn't see any awesome doodads), then bland, washed out forest, then muddy dark forest. I put more of this to lack of budget, then actual design intent, just because it would have looked pretty sweet if they got D3 level fidelty. But they didn't. Running through the caves in Act 1 gave me serious deja-vu for D2 Act 5. And it wasn't good. The part that isn't excusable is how enemies tend to disappear in the background.
It hasn't been mentioned yet, probably because it doesn't exist, but what I saw was just abrupt. Maybe it will be better when it's actually "released," but at the moment, I think it'd be better if they just dropped the story, and only gave the blurbs the NPCs have about enemies.
All in all, I'd rather play through D3 again with one of the characters I haven't maxed.
Oh - I did like the economy idea, even if I wish ScoW were a little more common (and worth less) so you have the option to sell un-identified, as opposed to being forced to, but that's easy to change. Also, whoever decided to keep the inventory the same as D2 needs to be beaten. I'm sorry, but SOME improvement is good.
No. Just...no. It will sell more because it has "Diablo" and "Blizzard" on the cover. It will sell more because it looks 'prettier'. Everything else is just you making stuff up to support your stance.
Plus, all that verbosity to talk about a game's "success"? As if that matters in this discussion. We're talking quality, not quantity.
Exactly.
Quote from "overneathe" »
And of course, take that as an opinion. I can't say I know too much about game design. Just my philosophy.
Eh, wasn't thrilled. It seemed to me to be a poor mix of Diablo 1 and 2.
You cant judge a book by its cover... or the first 5 pages.
I supported PoE in close beta with the Silver Support Package for 100 bucks... didnt played much though.
Every...cent....worth it. not shit.
Now after the final Character Wipe i've started playing, without any Guides, Insight or anything.
Started a Fire Witch (closing in on Level 70)...using Multiple Fireball with big Ignites, a Spectre as Tank, and Fire Traps...which is basicly a Ranger Ability, but it scales so well with all the Fire Passives that i had to take it for crazy AE Fire based Damage.
Your Imagination is the Limit in PoE, you can create so crazy Builds its completly sick.
And quite frankly, i've missed that in Diablo3. The crazy Depth.
After the second or third playthru it became tedious and dull...not saying "Boring" for a reason.
Diablo3 has a Hook, but its a tiny one for Carb or so.... PoE got a big Hook for Sharks.. i am a Shark dude
Cant really remember a Game which i played for 10 Hours straight, and time passed by so quickly that it felt like 2 Hours tops.
Its the same with my Friends btw, ive seen People in TS3 i didnt see for 2-3 Years...everybody is digging it.
The entire hardcore community moved over to PoE, all the big streamers PoE (besides Moldran^^)...
Thats doesnt happen without a reason dude
Its got some interesting ideas, but something about the combat feels off, something I cant quite explain. Its not as fast as TL2 or as meaty as D3, in my opinion.
I feel the skill system is a bit much. There is a middleground between the d2 way of "you need to use crappy skills for ages before get any good skills, then just slightly make them better" and this "here, have everything in your face, enjoy the confusion" system. Maybe it will grow on me, but so far, its kinda meh for me
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I can see what you see not. Vision milky, then eyes rot.
When you turn, they will be gone. Whispering their hidden song.
Then you see what cannot be. Shadows move where light should be.
Out of darkness, out of mind. Cast down into the Halls of the Blind
I'm sorry but I didn't see any argumentation against me personally. I absolutely agree with everything you said. Note that in all the time in which PoE started gaining attention and become one of the best RPGs on the market right now - I haven't said a bad word about it. The worst thing I said is it's not going to make as much money as Diablo 3 has and will never make its popularity. Is that a bad thing? No. Just sad for the developers. Also combat is not as fluid. Not fast. Fluid. It's a personal thing that I don't enjoy and not something I'll tell my friends "dude, the game is just bad, trust me, I tried it". If you like it, then by all means - play it!
I am sure as hell glad there are good games out there! I am a gamer and I love having to chose what to play in the genres I like and *shock* I'm super glad other people have that same choice! The more games of a genre out there the better the games!
It's pretty obvious to me that for some members I can sound like a biased jerk, because hey - I work for this site that covers Diablo 3 in its entirety and make arguments in defense of D3. But my arguments are not against PoE, they're against Diablo 3 being bad. And I'm doing this because players need to realize it's all opinions, but they state them as if they're facts. You can say "Sadly I've not enjoyed my time as much as would've liked in Diablo 3 because of this and that" and it's all fine! Really. But it's when people talk in the manner of "this game is shit and Jay made it bad and he should feel bad, all people with more than a brain cell moved to PoE long ago" is the nonsensical type of post to which I'm against and against which I argue.
So please, don't think that I don't appreciate PoE for what it is - a game made for a more dedicated crowd, which will certainly lead to a smaller audience but will grant a bigger personal success for them. Now. Read my post again and see how I've tried to balance things for both games and crowds.
Also what made you think I don't spend 10 hours a day researching the things I play?
It's all fine to have different opinions Maka.
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Ha. Bagstone.
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I think its more a matter of many designers not understanding how fluidity makes their games better.
That is probably one of the reasons so many WoW clones have failed miserably. No matter what else they do, nearly all of them offer much less fluid combat than WoW. And people get turned off by it.
*They literally admitted that they purposefully had made their game less fluid, so people could see all their "awesome animations". Not allowing people to switch from one skill to another, before the full animation had finished. Sigh.
New Record according to GGG.
Try avoiding playing at peak hours, and it should work fine.
They figure something out with the Servers, and they already ordered more.
check out KingKongor :-D
"selling entire D3 Gear" ---> HAHAHA
I started playing a few days ago and find myself increasingly more intrigued as I progress. The itemization is brilliant and the passive skills idea is very cool. The changes to your character may be small with passives, but it feels really rewarding.
When I first started playing, I wasn't feeling much lag and played without problem for several hours. However, today it's very laggy and the gameplay is too choppy to really progress.
Haven't had any problems playing PoE on my macbook air with Parallels.
I've forgotten all about Diablo 3 for now. Maybe I'll try it again in a year or two. But PoE, only being in beta and being more exciting than D3 (in my opinion), is a real game to consider playing when it fully releases. I can only imagine how awesome it's going to be.
What could i say... if such a simple game is too complicated for you... Plus you don't even see reasons for their choice of economy... And huge difference between gems in PoE and runes in D3... I feel sorry for you.
It *definitely* cannot be called a simple game. It is possibly the most complex game I've played in years (not a bad thing in my opinion)
Not really necessary to attack and condescend to the man for his opinions. The guy leans more towards the simple D3 mechanics while those of us who enjoy complex theory-crafting and builds are enjoying PoE. To each their own.
I have a feeling there are a lot of people out there who don't want to have to search a Wiki page to figure out basic mechanics. The game for them is D3.
But the game for me right now is PoE until D3 steps up its' endgame.
http://www.poeex.info/
Exalted Orbs = most valuable Item in game.
I am one of the players who felt a bit betrayed (even though i defended it most of the way through Development) by Blizzard's massive change to the ARPG genre, and when asked about it only saying "we feel that this is how people should be playing".
They sold a TON of copies, so I can't really say they had it wrong, but to take somthing as basic (IMO) to this genre as having replaying/remaking/rebuilding/starting over with new characters be un-needed, was a bit of a slap in the face.
So, in short, for the group of people (like me) who think:
"D3 is too simple"
"D3 shouldn't have gotten rid of stat points"
"D3 shouldn't have gotten rid of skill points"
"D3 shouldn't have added a RMAH"
"D3 shouldn't have made re-rolling pointless / unneeded"
"D3 shouldn't have simplified itemization to the point of absuridty"
.. for those people, PoE will hit the sweet spot. I love it so far!
But, on a side note, the potential for D3 is still SUPER high in my opinion. As others have said, and there is no denying, the "nuts and bolts" of Diablo 3 are IONS beyond path of exile. The smooth and satisfying combat in Diablo 3 are unmatched. They just need to build a better game around the engine.
Yepp, completly agree.
Over simplyfying to a degree where you dont have to use your brain anymore isnt good at all.
Games need to be hard to master
As one of the so called "brainless noob player", here is my perception of "fun":
For me, playing video games is a lot like having a beer. Do I feel like to solve a system of linear equations in order to open the bottle? No. As a research scientist, solving hard problems is part of the job description. Therefore I prefer giving my limited brain a break while relaxing. I really enjoy the idea of mindlessly smashing monsters (with D3's awesome combat system) 99% percent of the time and only once in a while (1% of the time) stop to think about how can I improve (with no punishment on making "bad" skill/rune decisions). I don't mind being "sub-optimal" or "slow" in my farming process, since I play this game just for the relaxation. I also have long term motivation for this game, smashing foes once in a while with my character slowly progressing. And I assume there are quite a few players like me.
Therefore, I don't think the existence of "oversimplifying games" is a bad thing, and I am very happy that there are such high quality games like D3 for me to play.
P.S. Sorry for the bad English
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Wise ElderBoth a super complex game and a very opened game can both be incredibly deep, but at the end of the day the hardcore theorycrafting crowd will reverse engineer all the complexity and invent cookie cutter options for lazier or not inventive people. Soon those options will overwhelm all the diversity that game companies have presented and their job from here on out is to keep balancing the different options so that a larger part of the depth is kept, while the complexity is left untouched.
My game examples here are very obviously PoE and D3. The difference that I gave as an example above is that Diablo 3 will sell more no matter the marketing because it's welcoming to new players, but having lots of options while the game progresses. Path of Exile will be successful to its crowd of theorycrafters because of the overcomplexity of things, but the depth will be lost to new players because of said complexity and the game is doomed to suffer a smaller, more dedicated crowd. The real difference is that Blizzard will have more money to support their servers and keep doing large updates and introducing expansions with lots of time for polish and tests for complexity vs depth. GGG will have smaller support, relying much more on their enthusiastic crowd, having smaller staff that will push features that are fun for the dedicated people, but will strengthen the complexity in order to satisfy them in spite the game losing population from new players that are feeling lost in said complexity.
Sorry for the sometimes long sentences.
And of course, take that as an opinion. I can't say I know too much about game design. Just my philosophy.
Ha. Bagstone.
My biggest issues were combat, graphics, and the story.
As others have said, I thought the combat was clunky. I feel this is more important than some are saying ("oh, I'd rather have good mechanics than combat") because combat is SO much of an ARPG. The skills also didn't seem to be varied. Maybe that was cause I didn't play far enough, or because of my character choice (duelist). I also felt the enemy variety wasn't great.
The graphics - oh sure, it was visually dark (as in, not bright enough), but that also meant it was INCREDIBLY dull. Again, maybe it gets way better in late game, but the early part was just bland muddy shore, bland washed out shore, dark boring cave (yeah, that's what a cave really looks like, boring), dark boring jail (I personally didn't see any awesome doodads), then bland, washed out forest, then muddy dark forest. I put more of this to lack of budget, then actual design intent, just because it would have looked pretty sweet if they got D3 level fidelty. But they didn't. Running through the caves in Act 1 gave me serious deja-vu for D2 Act 5. And it wasn't good. The part that isn't excusable is how enemies tend to disappear in the background.
It hasn't been mentioned yet, probably because it doesn't exist, but what I saw was just abrupt. Maybe it will be better when it's actually "released," but at the moment, I think it'd be better if they just dropped the story, and only gave the blurbs the NPCs have about enemies.
All in all, I'd rather play through D3 again with one of the characters I haven't maxed.
Oh - I did like the economy idea, even if I wish ScoW were a little more common (and worth less) so you have the option to sell un-identified, as opposed to being forced to, but that's easy to change. Also, whoever decided to keep the inventory the same as D2 needs to be beaten. I'm sorry, but SOME improvement is good.
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Wise ElderExactly.
Ha. Bagstone.
You cant judge a book by its cover... or the first 5 pages.
I supported PoE in close beta with the Silver Support Package for 100 bucks... didnt played much though.
Every...cent....worth it. not shit.
Now after the final Character Wipe i've started playing, without any Guides, Insight or anything.
Started a Fire Witch (closing in on Level 70)...using Multiple Fireball with big Ignites, a Spectre as Tank, and Fire Traps...which is basicly a Ranger Ability, but it scales so well with all the Fire Passives that i had to take it for crazy AE Fire based Damage.
Your Imagination is the Limit in PoE, you can create so crazy Builds its completly sick.
And quite frankly, i've missed that in Diablo3. The crazy Depth.
After the second or third playthru it became tedious and dull...not saying "Boring" for a reason.
Diablo3 has a Hook, but its a tiny one for Carb or so.... PoE got a big Hook for Sharks.. i am a Shark dude
Cant really remember a Game which i played for 10 Hours straight, and time passed by so quickly that it felt like 2 Hours tops.
Its the same with my Friends btw, ive seen People in TS3 i didnt see for 2-3 Years...everybody is digging it.
The entire hardcore community moved over to PoE, all the big streamers PoE (besides Moldran^^)...
Thats doesnt happen without a reason dude
I feel the skill system is a bit much. There is a middleground between the d2 way of "you need to use crappy skills for ages before get any good skills, then just slightly make them better" and this "here, have everything in your face, enjoy the confusion" system. Maybe it will grow on me, but so far, its kinda meh for me
Yepp, have to double that... great post Nyarlathotep
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Wise ElderI am sure as hell glad there are good games out there! I am a gamer and I love having to chose what to play in the genres I like and *shock* I'm super glad other people have that same choice! The more games of a genre out there the better the games!
It's pretty obvious to me that for some members I can sound like a biased jerk, because hey - I work for this site that covers Diablo 3 in its entirety and make arguments in defense of D3. But my arguments are not against PoE, they're against Diablo 3 being bad. And I'm doing this because players need to realize it's all opinions, but they state them as if they're facts. You can say "Sadly I've not enjoyed my time as much as would've liked in Diablo 3 because of this and that" and it's all fine! Really. But it's when people talk in the manner of "this game is shit and Jay made it bad and he should feel bad, all people with more than a brain cell moved to PoE long ago" is the nonsensical type of post to which I'm against and against which I argue.
So please, don't think that I don't appreciate PoE for what it is - a game made for a more dedicated crowd, which will certainly lead to a smaller audience but will grant a bigger personal success for them. Now. Read my post again and see how I've tried to balance things for both games and crowds.
Also what made you think I don't spend 10 hours a day researching the things I play?
It's all fine to have different opinions Maka.
Ha. Bagstone.