So what's wrong with having a toggle option? No one can seem to answer this with logical justification.
There is a downside and it can lead to a reduction in the rate new builds are created, established builds are countered and the general inventiveness of the entire diablo community. Here's why:
If there is an option to toggle whether your gear and skills show or not, then we can assume most good players will choose this option for the very reasons you stated: if they don't show their build, people aren't sure of what to expect and it will be harder and take longer to counter it, leading to good win records for those with the best builds. The best can form their own enclaves amongst themselves, and whatever knowledge is generated there will only trickle down to the general fanbase if said people choose to post any of their findings in public forums. There will of course be guides posted online, but much information will also be withheld.
With no toggle option, even the best players will be forced to reveal what skill and gear setup they use to every player. This will facilitate a faster response time in builds, as a dominant build can quickly be laid out and analyzed, by an opponent or anyone, and thus a build adapted to it can more quickly be developed, or the playstyle can be adjusted accordingly.
This does not equalize matches between evenly specced character however, as knowing the composition of a build does not tell you how to play it effectively. The best players will have to excel in execution as well as planning to win and not have to depend on build surprise to win.
I'd say your poker analogy doesn't work here, as poker is a game focused around chance and the gambling mechanic, aspects which are severely downplayed in D3 gameplay. A more apt comparison is that of a market. Each player represents a CEO, their characters are their companies and the build their respective products. Disallowing a toggle option brings the entire market closer to perfect competition while allowing toggling is akin to patent protection or another form of guarding product specifications from competitors. More public information will in this case create a more open and fair playing environment.
Will a toggle feature single-handedly make or break an interesting PvP scene? I don't know, but there is no doubt that it will have an impact.
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
When you say a more open and fair environment, you mean its easier for noobs to copy people, that think about how to place their skill- and traitpoints.
No. If I had meant easier for noobs I would have said so, rather than explain how an open environment would be beneficial to the community as a whole. Yes, those few people who strike key builds early will be in a comparatibly worse situation. But everyone else, including really good players, will benefit from this as it allows them to better fight builds that are imbalanced but not yet known. It reduces the chance for people to succeed on basis of finding a powerful build by chance, and makes way for more widespread theorycrafting based on what the community as a whole is experimenting with. In the same way that replays of the best players facilitates a greater understanding of the gameplay in Starcraft II, so will public builds in D3.
And players will not be able to "reset stats", first of all because it will not turn out to be possible to do on such a regular basis, and second of all because if it were to work anything like the wow armory it will update while you're playing.
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
So what we are saying is we would rather have people just click and look up our builds and counter so more builds can come out faster rather than try to make a challenge of creating a better build and let them unfold at a pace the players of the game allow it to? Is that what we are saying people who are for no toggle?(I wanna be fair but that's how I see the statements summed up as) Is the main argument speed of changing builds over challenge of finding builds?
How much would it slow things down as said in the podcast this is the information age, people are going to be showing off their build they want you to see that awesome crap they found and what they used to smash face in the arena.
I think many people feel that creating characters/builds is a fun and challenging part of the game(it's meta game)on top of that if there was a toggle option, lets just say all the best players turn it off so we can't see their builds and copy there traits and what not. Doesn't that sound like a fun mountain to overcome? I mean come on what sounds more rewarding being able to look up up any single fact about any person you want, or finding your own way and succeeding? ( When you take that toggle using Aholes ear its gonna feel that much better, but maybe we don't care about that. I think the poker metaphor made early explains well how no toggle option will take out the challenge , and I don't know about everyone but I like a challenge.
Why would toggle auction slow things down?
My opinion, not that anyone asked for it is that toggle seems like a perfect option. If that many people respect it they will use it and there will be a plethora of build concepts for you to snip from.
So what do you guys think?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Give a man a skill tree, and he will become a Fire Sorc. Give a man 6 skills to choose from, pulling from all three trees, and he becomes a Fire Sorc that likes to shoot lightning to manage the bigger crowds."
So what we are saying is we would rather have people just click and look up our builds and counter so more builds can come out faster rather than try to make a challenge of creating a better build and let them unfold at a pace the players of the game allow it to? Is that what we are saying people who are for no toggle?(I wanna be fair but that's how I see the statements summed up as) Is the main argument speed of changing builds over challenge of finding builds?
I think you and others incorrectly correlate forced public builds with not only an easier pvp environment, but also an easier time of theorycrafting in D3. This I believe is not the case, and I will try to explain why. It's a theory that really is a form of pseudo-economic reasoning, but nonetheless I find it quite applicable to this situation.
How much would it slow things down as said in the podcast this is the information age, people are going to be showing off their build they want you to see that awesome crap they found and what they used to smash face in the arena.
Different people. You and me migth blabber about whatever inferior build we have, but at least I will be nothing special in the PvP environment (can't speak for you), because we do not intend to be at the top of the ladder. Other parts of the game, perhaps a social forum, will be comparatively more important to us. But if you're in the game to win, you will always want to give your opponent as little information about you as possible. So top players will be far more likely to turn their toggle off. They will primarily do this to prevent people from looking at them specifically, but when many people start to do this it will affect the information available through the hypothetical D3 armory as a whole: It will stave off the flow of information from some of the people who will be the very best in figuring out how to build a character effectively.
I think many people feel that creating characters/builds is a fun and challenging part of the game(it's meta game)on top of that if there was a toggle option, lets just say all the best players turn it off so we can't see their builds and copy there traits and what not. Doesn't that sound like a fun mountain to overcome?
Here's where I think the confusion arises between my opinion and yours, and it's something I didn't really touch on before. There is a difference in how community knowledge will be spread depending how how easily build information is shared.
If build information is not public at all (everyone has it toggled off) then information between players can only be shared by choice and a little by actually encountering said character in battle. The spread of information becomes fractured, de-centralized and harder to get a grip off. This reduces the effective available information for everyone. So when you try to make a build, it's true that you will have to make it yourself. But you will not only have a less information about your opponent, but about builds in general. The aggregate knowledge about builds for the Diablo community as a whole will develop slower.
If build inforamtion is public (everyone has it toggled on) then suddenly you have a lot more information at your disposal. Knowing that Blizzard is making is easy for external sites to track data nowadays (leading to pages like wowprogress.com quickly rising to prominence) this will give the Diablo community a fountain of knowledge. Ideally, information about total builds currently used, builds used by high-end players and other things will be easily overviewed online. This causes the aggregate build knowledge of the community to rise.
And this is important. Because not only will you know what builds are popular, but your opponents will as well. And as the aggregate knowledge and information available to the community rises, the gaming environment will grow more complex, because with each passing day with more build variations will have to be accounted for, and the more public display of information guarantees that everyone has the opportunity to use this information.
So while this will highlight effective builds more easily to less dedicated players, it will still provide high-end players with a clear advantage: they will be able to take the greater amount of common knowledge and apply it to their theorycrafting. Which in turn will spread and be used by the collective community.
Keep in mind that this is not instant, and it is not an analysis on a personal level. Good players will be able to stay on top, but with greater information spread they will have to work harder to continuously improve their game, or be overtaken by someone else.
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
So what we are saying is we would rather have people just click and look up our builds and counter so more builds can come out faster rather than try to make a challenge of creating a better build and let them unfold at a pace the players of the game allow it to? Is that what we are saying people who are for no toggle?(I wanna be fair but that's how I see the statements summed up as) Is the main argument speed of changing builds over challenge of finding builds?
I think you and others incorrectly correlate forced public builds with not only an easier pvp environment, but also an easier time of theorycrafting in D3. This I believe is not the case, and I will try to explain why. It's a theory that really is a form of pseudo-economic reasoning, but nonetheless I find it quite applicable to this situation.
How much would it slow things down as said in the podcast this is the information age, people are going to be showing off their build they want you to see that awesome crap they found and what they used to smash face in the arena.
Different people. You and me migth blabber about whatever inferior build we have, but at least I will be nothing special in the PvP environment (can't speak for you), because we do not intend to be at the top of the ladder. Other parts of the game, perhaps a social forum, will be comparatively more important to us. But if you're in the game to win, you will always want to give your opponent as little information about you as possible. So top players will be far more likely to turn their toggle off. They will primarily do this to prevent people from looking at them specifically, but when many people start to do this it will affect the information available through the hypothetical D3 armory as a whole: It will stave off the flow of information from some of the people who will be the very best in figuring out how to build a character effectively.
I think many people feel that creating characters/builds is a fun and challenging part of the game(it's meta game)on top of that if there was a toggle option, lets just say all the best players turn it off so we can't see their builds and copy there traits and what not. Doesn't that sound like a fun mountain to overcome?
Here's where I think the confusion arises between my opinion and yours, and it's something I didn't really touch on before. There is a difference in how community knowledge will be spread depending how how easily build information is shared.
If build information is not public at all (everyone has it toggled off) then information between players can only be shared by choice and a little by actually encountering said character in battle. The spread of information becomes fractured, de-centralized and harder to get a grip off. This reduces the effective available information for everyone. So when you try to make a build, it's true that you will have to make it yourself. But you will not only have a less information about your opponent, but about builds in general. The aggregate knowledge about builds for the Diablo community as a whole will develop slower.
If build inforamtion is public (everyone has it toggled on) then suddenly you have a lot more information at your disposal. Knowing that Blizzard is making is easy for external sites to track data nowadays (leading to pages like wowprogress.com quickly rising to prominence) this will give the Diablo community a fountain of knowledge. Ideally, information about total builds currently used, builds used by high-end players and other things will be easily overviewed online. This causes the aggregate build knowledge of the community to rise.
And this is important. Because not only will you know what builds are popular, but your opponents will as well. And as the aggregate knowledge and information available to the community rises, the gaming environment will grow more complex, because with each passing day with more build variations will have to be accounted for, and the more public display of information guarantees that everyone has the opportunity to use this information.
So while this will highlight effective builds more easily to less dedicated players, it will still provide high-end players with a clear advantage: they will be able to take the greater amount of common knowledge and apply it to their theorycrafting. Which in turn will spread and be used by the collective community.
Keep in mind that this is not instant, and it is not an analysis on a personal level. Good players will be able to stay on top, but with greater information spread they will have to work harder to continuously improve their game, or be overtaken by someone else.
Another way to terminate creativity from the game and make the gameplay uniform.... On the other hands lets try imagine the game with a toogle function>> the amount of PVP builds viable will be much bigger since nobody knows anything about his opponent, so even if i got pwned by this mean Wizard i could see what spells he used but i would have to use my CREATIVITY to figure out how to maximize my characters potential>> makes the game more challenging and fun. And yes there would be a top 10 players, as there would be with no toogle function. But they deserve to be there because they have both a very good build and very good teamplay. There would be alot more different builds and strategies, instead of the convenient way.. paging up an armory page and copy a player, why not encourage people to use their own ideas instead of ctrl-c. Kills some of the fun for a competetive player.
If they make the toogle function the information accesible will be less, and thanks heaven for that, then the game will be less uniform and less convenient, more diverse, reward creativity, and give the game another flavor which would lead to more hours of fun figuring out your opponents setups... besides forcing players to show their gear seems like a bad idea to me...
Here's where I think the confusion arises between my opinion and yours, and it's something I didn't really touch on before. There is a difference in how community knowledge will be spread depending how how easily build information is shared.
If build information is not public at all (everyone has it toggled off) then information between players can only be shared by choice and a little by actually encountering said character in battle. The spread of information becomes fractured, de-centralized and harder to get a grip off. This reduces the effective available information for everyone. So when you try to make a build, it's true that you will have to make it yourself. But you will not only have a less information about your opponent, but about builds in general. The aggregate knowledge about builds for the Diablo community as a whole will develop slower.
If build inforamtion is public (everyone has it toggled on) then suddenly you have a lot more information at your disposal. Knowing that Blizzard is making is easy for external sites to track data nowadays (leading to pages like wowprogress.com quickly rising to prominence) this will give the Diablo community a fountain of knowledge. Ideally, information about total builds currently used, builds used by high-end players and other things will be easily overviewed online. This causes the aggregate build knowledge of the community to rise.
And this is important. Because not only will you know what builds are popular, but your opponents will as well. And as the aggregate knowledge and information available to the community rises, the gaming environment will grow more complex, because with each passing day with more build variations will have to be accounted for, and the more public display of information guarantees that everyone has the opportunity to use this information.
So while this will highlight effective builds more easily to less dedicated players, it will still provide high-end players with a clear advantage: they will be able to take the greater amount of common knowledge and apply it to their theorycrafting. Which in turn will spread and be used by the collective community.
Keep in mind that this is not instant, and it is not an analysis on a personal level. Good players will be able to stay on top, but with greater information spread they will have to work harder to continuously improve their game, or be overtaken by someone else.
Bravo sir. Well worded. So it really is just a difference of opinion some rather have builds come out faster and some rather have discovering the the builds be a bit more of a challenge.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Give a man a skill tree, and he will become a Fire Sorc. Give a man 6 skills to choose from, pulling from all three trees, and he becomes a Fire Sorc that likes to shoot lightning to manage the bigger crowds."
I don't think we'll have people telling you that you shouldn't be using those boots, or those gloves, with your build. I mean how could anyone assume that the items your wearing at the moment of inspection are the absolute end-game items you want in your final build. I know a few of my characters have everything but one item and if someone told me I should be using the item I want I'd tell them to give it to me
Also I configure my characters in D2 to have less then the best gear, especially with runeword items I just find a good unique item substitute.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A lot of fellows nowadays have a B.A., M.D., or Ph.D. Unfortunately, they don't have a J.O.B."
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If there is an option to toggle whether your gear and skills show or not, then we can assume most good players will choose this option for the very reasons you stated: if they don't show their build, people aren't sure of what to expect and it will be harder and take longer to counter it, leading to good win records for those with the best builds. The best can form their own enclaves amongst themselves, and whatever knowledge is generated there will only trickle down to the general fanbase if said people choose to post any of their findings in public forums. There will of course be guides posted online, but much information will also be withheld.
With no toggle option, even the best players will be forced to reveal what skill and gear setup they use to every player. This will facilitate a faster response time in builds, as a dominant build can quickly be laid out and analyzed, by an opponent or anyone, and thus a build adapted to it can more quickly be developed, or the playstyle can be adjusted accordingly.
This does not equalize matches between evenly specced character however, as knowing the composition of a build does not tell you how to play it effectively. The best players will have to excel in execution as well as planning to win and not have to depend on build surprise to win.
I'd say your poker analogy doesn't work here, as poker is a game focused around chance and the gambling mechanic, aspects which are severely downplayed in D3 gameplay. A more apt comparison is that of a market. Each player represents a CEO, their characters are their companies and the build their respective products. Disallowing a toggle option brings the entire market closer to perfect competition while allowing toggling is akin to patent protection or another form of guarding product specifications from competitors. More public information will in this case create a more open and fair playing environment.
Will a toggle feature single-handedly make or break an interesting PvP scene? I don't know, but there is no doubt that it will have an impact.
And players will not be able to "reset stats", first of all because it will not turn out to be possible to do on such a regular basis, and second of all because if it were to work anything like the wow armory it will update while you're playing.
How much would it slow things down as said in the podcast this is the information age, people are going to be showing off their build they want you to see that awesome crap they found and what they used to smash face in the arena.
I think many people feel that creating characters/builds is a fun and challenging part of the game(it's meta game)on top of that if there was a toggle option, lets just say all the best players turn it off so we can't see their builds and copy there traits and what not. Doesn't that sound like a fun mountain to overcome? I mean come on what sounds more rewarding being able to look up up any single fact about any person you want, or finding your own way and succeeding? ( When you take that toggle using Aholes ear its gonna feel that much better, but maybe we don't care about that. I think the poker metaphor made early explains well how no toggle option will take out the challenge , and I don't know about everyone but I like a challenge.
Why would toggle auction slow things down?
My opinion, not that anyone asked for it is that toggle seems like a perfect option. If that many people respect it they will use it and there will be a plethora of build concepts for you to snip from.
So what do you guys think?
TheSkaBoss
I think you and others incorrectly correlate forced public builds with not only an easier pvp environment, but also an easier time of theorycrafting in D3. This I believe is not the case, and I will try to explain why. It's a theory that really is a form of pseudo-economic reasoning, but nonetheless I find it quite applicable to this situation.
Different people. You and me migth blabber about whatever inferior build we have, but at least I will be nothing special in the PvP environment (can't speak for you), because we do not intend to be at the top of the ladder. Other parts of the game, perhaps a social forum, will be comparatively more important to us. But if you're in the game to win, you will always want to give your opponent as little information about you as possible. So top players will be far more likely to turn their toggle off. They will primarily do this to prevent people from looking at them specifically, but when many people start to do this it will affect the information available through the hypothetical D3 armory as a whole: It will stave off the flow of information from some of the people who will be the very best in figuring out how to build a character effectively.
Here's where I think the confusion arises between my opinion and yours, and it's something I didn't really touch on before. There is a difference in how community knowledge will be spread depending how how easily build information is shared.
If build information is not public at all (everyone has it toggled off) then information between players can only be shared by choice and a little by actually encountering said character in battle. The spread of information becomes fractured, de-centralized and harder to get a grip off. This reduces the effective available information for everyone. So when you try to make a build, it's true that you will have to make it yourself. But you will not only have a less information about your opponent, but about builds in general. The aggregate knowledge about builds for the Diablo community as a whole will develop slower.
If build inforamtion is public (everyone has it toggled on) then suddenly you have a lot more information at your disposal. Knowing that Blizzard is making is easy for external sites to track data nowadays (leading to pages like wowprogress.com quickly rising to prominence) this will give the Diablo community a fountain of knowledge. Ideally, information about total builds currently used, builds used by high-end players and other things will be easily overviewed online. This causes the aggregate build knowledge of the community to rise.
And this is important. Because not only will you know what builds are popular, but your opponents will as well. And as the aggregate knowledge and information available to the community rises, the gaming environment will grow more complex, because with each passing day with more build variations will have to be accounted for, and the more public display of information guarantees that everyone has the opportunity to use this information.
So while this will highlight effective builds more easily to less dedicated players, it will still provide high-end players with a clear advantage: they will be able to take the greater amount of common knowledge and apply it to their theorycrafting. Which in turn will spread and be used by the collective community.
Keep in mind that this is not instant, and it is not an analysis on a personal level. Good players will be able to stay on top, but with greater information spread they will have to work harder to continuously improve their game, or be overtaken by someone else.
Another way to terminate creativity from the game and make the gameplay uniform.... On the other hands lets try imagine the game with a toogle function>> the amount of PVP builds viable will be much bigger since nobody knows anything about his opponent, so even if i got pwned by this mean Wizard i could see what spells he used but i would have to use my CREATIVITY to figure out how to maximize my characters potential>> makes the game more challenging and fun. And yes there would be a top 10 players, as there would be with no toogle function. But they deserve to be there because they have both a very good build and very good teamplay. There would be alot more different builds and strategies, instead of the convenient way.. paging up an armory page and copy a player, why not encourage people to use their own ideas instead of ctrl-c. Kills some of the fun for a competetive player.
If they make the toogle function the information accesible will be less, and thanks heaven for that, then the game will be less uniform and less convenient, more diverse, reward creativity, and give the game another flavor which would lead to more hours of fun figuring out your opponents setups... besides forcing players to show their gear seems like a bad idea to me...
Bravo sir. Well worded. So it really is just a difference of opinion some rather have builds come out faster and some rather have discovering the the builds be a bit more of a challenge.
TheSkaBoss
Also I configure my characters in D2 to have less then the best gear, especially with runeword items I just find a good unique item substitute.
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