The point is that the Artisans do not do the crafting for you. Here's all the tasks related to crafting in Diablo 3 (keyword being tasks):
1) Salvaging items
2) Collecting and storing raw materials
Which involves choosing between salvaging and selling an item, and I guess putting it in your stash. Theres even designated inventory slots for materials.
3) Finding recipes
Which will be (presumably) easier than finding runes in D2.
4) Collecting gold
Which you would do anyways, and to have a good gold economy you need gold sinks
5) Transmuting raw materials
What? If you mean bringing them to the Artisan then thats not hard. Otherwise I don't know what you're talking about.
Players salvage items; players collect and store the raw materials; players find the recipes; players collect the gold; players transmute raw materials (for clarity, they go to the Artisan, they chose the recipe, they press the button). The blacksmith doesn't actually do (i.e. "perform a task") anything to craft.
In pretty much any game with a real crafting system (aka not D2, lets be real), the worst part of it is collecting materials and crafting (obviously). In D3, you collect salvage by simply dropping an item into a box right next to your inventory, which is easy, and the crafting part (as in the part that actually takes time as the item is made) is done by the Artisan. As in, if you want to make an item and it takes 30 seconds to make after you bring all the materials to the crafting area you don't actually have to sit there for those 30 seconds. So sure, compared to D2's not-actually-crafting crafting system you might end up having to spend more time/gold. But the only hard part of D3's system is probably going to be finding recipes and coming up with the gold. The first one will be (again) easier than finding runes, and the second is neccessary (along with other gold sinks) to have gold actually be useful.
The point I am making about listing the tasks involved in crafting is not that they are "hard" (although they can be tedious), it's that they're all tasks that the players have to complete. The artisan isn't responsible for any of the actual tasks. Therefore, Jay Wilson is incorrect when he describes that the "artisans will do the crafting for you". The Artisans don't do anything; they are just the place the player must visit to transmute the items.
On a related note, have you ever played a game where players could salvage items?
BTW I was forming my post while you posted last; I edited in my responses to it on the previous page.
Correct; easily made equivalent by increasing the price of using the materials. Jay Wilson has already stated that salvage is designed for items not worth selling in the first place. Nevertheless, the choice between salvaging an item and selling it isn't necessary to make the game better.
Not true. In order to gain the most valuable materials, which are required for higher level recipes, you will have to salvage valuble items.
Without salvage, it's basically equivalent to the choice between selling the item and just dropping it. Players already have enough options for items: discard, sell, equip, save for later, transfer to another character, or trade. Salvaging is just one more option that really doesn't add a lot of value.
Well discarding does nothing for anyone, and you won't really be doing that in D3. Theres the Scroll of Wealth to sell stuff on the go, and salvaging. Also, when are you really saving for later? Especially considering items get unlocked with levels, not stats. So the real options are sell, equip, transfer, trade or salvage. Equip and transfering only really happen every now and then, and you'll only trade really valuable stuff, so its pretty much sell or salvage that you have to decide on an item to item basis. I don't know why you think it doesn't add a lot of value, but considering that its part of a pretty (imo) sweet crafting system I'd say it does.
Finally, the game is about killing demons, right? That's pretty much the point that justifies the Artisan and salvaging system. The more focus placed on having players make decisions over all the items that are constantly dropping, the less focus that's placed on killing demons.
Again, its not like you'll be debating it for half an hour. If you're going to equip something or transfer it to another character you'll know soon after the item is identified, so really its just a debate between sell or salvage. And which one of those you choose you'll also probably know pretty easily based on what you're working towards.
The point I am making about listing the tasks involved in crafting is not that they are "hard" (although they can be tedious), it's that they're all tasks that the players have to complete. The artisan isn't responsible for any of the actual tasks. Therefore, Jay Wilson is incorrect when he describes that the "artisans will do the crafting for you". The Artisans don't do anything; they are just the place the player must visit to transmute the items.
But they actually do the crafting for you. No matter how you put it, they're the ones who are having to spend the time crafting once you give them the materials. You know all the complaints you've had about this system? They could be easily applied to most crafting systems, but the Artisans and salvaging makes it so that theres not a time commitment involved with gathering the items (unless your farming for that specific purpose) or the actual crafting once you have all the materials.
I'm not saying that the crafting system doesn't detract from killing demons, thats unavoidable. I'm just saying it detracts from the action a lot less than most crafting systems.
Not true. In order to gain the most valuable materials, which are required for higher level recipes, you will have to salvage valuble items.
Jay Wilson's statements fromGamesCon 2010 Q&A directly refute that idea. That happens to be the latest source of information concerning the Artisans and salvaging.
Well discarding does nothing for anyone, and you won't really be doing that in D3. Theres the Scroll of Wealth to sell stuff on the go, and salvaging. Also, when are you really saving for later? Especially considering items get unlocked with levels, not stats. So the real options are sell, equip, transfer, trade or salvage. Equip and transfering only really happen every now and then, and you'll only trade really valuable stuff, so its pretty much sell or salvage that you have to decide on an item to item basis. I don't know why you think it doesn't add a lot of value, but considering that its part of a pretty (imo) sweet crafting system I'd say it does.
You can save an item for later when they might be useful in different areas of the game or when you aren't able to use them yet. Many items are just going to be junk, so they should be discarded (I guess I should clarify that discarding includes not picking up the item in the first place). Are you seriously arguing that they should be salvaged instead? You want players to salvage every single item that drops in the game? Have you ever played a game where players had to salvage items?
Jay Wilson basically lays it out that players are not intended to salvage items that they would sell: GamesCon 2010 Q&A. It sounds like making a decision about what to do with an item won't be an issue. That makes it a choice between salvage and discard. Salvaging just adds an extra step in the process. Instead of ignoring junk item, you have to pick them up, salvage them, and tote around the materials (which take up normal inventory space, not a dedicated partition, FYI). Instead of just dropping items you picked up and don't need, you have to salvage them. I've played a game with salvage - it's tedious. After awhile, you want to stop doing it, but since you know it's required for leveling Artisans and crafting, you still have to do it, at which point it will become downright aggravating.
By moving the task of salvaging to the Blacksmith, it's possible to keep the same crafting system, which should cover your concern about salvaging adding value.
But they actually do the crafting for you. No matter how you put it, they're the ones who are having to spend the time crafting once you give them the materials.
The artisan isn't doing anything in that time; it's just something that makes the player wait. We already know that there's no action, task, or process, like banging on an anvil, required to craft an item. Of course not; it never belonged in Diablo anyways. I've already listed the actual tasks associated with crafting. I suppose you could add one more:
1) Salvaging items
2) Collecting and storing raw materials
3) Finding recipes
4) Collecting gold
5) Transmuting raw materials
6) Wait for item to finish
Once again, it's the player who is the one waiting. These are all activities in the game as it stands - I'm not talking about hypothetical tasks such as "7) Bang on anvil in town for two hours" that were never part of the game in the first place. Some of them are fun (finding recipes, gold, transmuting), other are just tedious (salvaging, collecting the materials, waiting). It is much better to move have the Artisans handle the tedious tasks so the player just has to worry about the fun stuff.
Jay Wilson's statements fromGamesCon 2010 Q&A directly refute that idea. That happens to be the latest source of information concerning the Artisans and salvaging.
"Higher level gear" still means its something you would decide between selling and salvaging. Saying its not the most valuable, but the highest level, could easily mean that its just not good enough to trade.
You can save an item for later when they might be useful in different areas of the game or when you aren't able to use them yet. Many items are just going to be junk, so they should be discarded (I guess I should clarify that discarding includes not picking up the item in the first place). Are you seriously arguing that they should be salvaged instead? You want players to salvage every single item that drops in the game? Have you ever played a game where players had to salvage items?
Where are you getting that from? I'm arguing that salvaging is a legitimate option, not that every item should be salvaged. I don't even imply that. In fact, I said that you would have to choose between selling and salvaging on most items, as most will be junk that you wouldn't consider wearing or trading. Obviously those videos you posted show that instead its discard or salvage, but are you honestly saying that all those items go to waste instead of being used in some kind of system? If anything, you should be happy about that as it makes it all the more optional. If you think its tedious, don't do it.
By moving the task of salvaging to the Blacksmith, it's possible to keep the same crafting system, which should cover your concern about salvaging adding value.
How does it make it less tedious to have to carry all the stuff back to the Blacksmith? That just makes it so that you have to make more trips back to town if you want to get the most salvage. Again, part of its design is to free up inventory space through a method other than discarding. Even if it takes up inventory space they stack to at least 50, probably higher.
The artisan isn't doing anything in that time; it's just something that makes the player wait. We already know that there's no action, task, or process, like banging on an anvil, required to craft an item. Of course not; it never belonged in Diablo anyways. I've already listed the actual tasks associated with crafting. I suppose you could add one more:
1) Salvaging items
2) Collecting and storing raw materials
3) Finding recipes
4) Collecting gold
5) Transmuting raw materials
6) Wait for item to finish
Once again, it's the player who is the one waiting. These are all activities in the game as it stands - I'm not talking about hypothetical tasks such as "7) Bang on anvil in town for two hours" that were never part of the game in the first place. Some of them are fun (finding recipes, gold, transmuting), other are just tedious (salvaging, collecting the materials, waiting). It is much better to move have the Artisans handle the tedious tasks so the player just has to worry about the fun stuff.
Fine. The waiting part of many crafting systems is boring. But all I've been saying is that its a feature of almost every crafting system out there that the actual making of the item takes time. The Artisan system makes it so that instead of being bound to an area for that waiting time, you can go back out into the action. How is that bad? And again, salvaging is nearly instantaneous and you simply drop items into a chest thats right under your inventory, and according to what you've said its only the junk that you need to salvage, which makes "collecting" them a part of every dungeon run. Ever play inventory tetris in D2? It'll probably take less time than that.
I find that d2 was a bit lame in the crafting regards. Im expecting good things from d3 and hoping its very viable at high end. Would be good to be able to craft sets and rares that are just as viable as drops in end game and arena pvp.
I have always thought games should have a system of crafting instead of just having a chest piece drop from an over sized demon or something. Like a horn may drop, that can be crafted into a necklace and when combined with a gem can give it certain properties etc. in saying that though i think you should need to collect resources to(like runscape...lame) and then that just detracts from killing demons.
I guess I'm going to try to max out all of the artisans, at least with the first few characters, just to gett the feel of how they work, which effect they have on the development of my character, how the maxing is viable, etc.
I usually like to know how all the features of the game work.
I guess too that artisans skills will be easily modified by patches and eventual expansions, adding to the lifespan of the game (this said by someone who's still playing D2 LoD )
About salvaging and crafting: I see no problem here, you like to salvage and craft, you do that; you don't like it you just drop or sell stuff, then you can collect money and buy stuff you need from other players.
I take it artisans are there not just to add a nice feature but mostly as a part of the "diablo economic system"
"Higher level gear" still means its something you would decide between selling and salvaging. Saying its not the most valuable, but the highest level, could easily mean that its just not good enough to trade.
The choice between salvaging an item and selling it is really no different than the choice between discarding it and selling it. In either cases, you've determined the item isn't worth selling. Normally, players would just discard the item and move on. Salvage serves the same purpose - the item is discarded and the player moves on - but it adds another step.
Of course you get materials with salvage. You can accomplish the same thing, however, by giving players material when they sell items (which they will be doing anyways). So you have two scenarios which yield the same result. Which is easier? Which scenario results in more action-packed gameplay?
Where are you getting that from? I'm arguing that salvaging is a legitimate option, not that every item should be salvaged. I don't even imply that.
I meant instead of just discarding them (which is the same as not picking them up). You whittled down the option players have with items to salvage or selling. If you don't include discarding in those options, then you imply that every item that drops should be picked up to be sold or salvaged. Having to deal with every item that drops (or risk losing out on part of the game) is crazy. Since I've asked twice and you haven't replied, I'll assume that means you've never played a game with salvaging. You should hope that Blizzard removes salvage between now and release so you never have to.
Obviously those videos you posted show that instead its discard or salvage, but are you honestly saying that all those items go to waste instead of being used in some kind of system? If anything, you should be happy about that as it makes it all the more optional. If you think its tedious, don't do it.
Absolutely. The majority of items will be junk and go to waste - that's Diablo. Players understand that and no one has had a problem with it yet. We don't really need a system to try and make them useful - least of which is salvaging. It is tedious, and it won't entirely be optional. An end-game setup will call for level 14 gems. Level 14 gems calls for the highest level Jeweler. An end-game setup will call for the best enchantments (from the same Q&A, enchants work much like crafting recipes - enchantment "recipes" must be found and add a specific bonus to an item). The best enchantments call for the highest level Mystic. An end-game setup might call for the best crafting recipe. The best crafting recipe calls for the highest level Blacksmith. Do you want the best character (that it can be)? You've got to have the best Artisans.
The bottom line is that you can accomplish everything without having players salvage their own items as you can with salvage. The only difference is that salvage is more tedious.
Fine. The waiting part of many crafting systems is boring. But all I've been saying is that its a feature of almost every crafting system out there that the actual making of the item takes time. The Artisan system makes it so that instead of being bound to an area for that waiting time, you can go back out into the action. How is that bad?
The crafting system of others games is totally irrelevant to Diablo. I don't care if being able to kill enemies while waiting for an item is better than other games. I'm simply saying that the Artisans don't perform any actions which contribute to "crafting" as it pertains to the Diablo series.
Every action required to be taken that results in obtaining a crafted item is performed by the player - actions I've already outlined. So saying that the character "doesn't have to do any of the work" or that the "artisans do the crafting for you" is misleading. I don't know how else to say it.
ADDENDUM: As far as the idea that salvaging will be optional... when it comes to the match-making system, what happens when a player that does not salvage items gets paired with a player that does? The salvaging player is going to stop on the battlefield regularly to salvage the junk items that the non-salvaging player just ignores. He'll keep falling behind. Either the non-salvaging player will be held back and annoyed, or the salvaging player will have to mostly forgo salvaging while playing in that party.
"We didn't want the player to spend a ton of time banging on an anvil, when they should be out killin' things. So instead, artisans will do the crafting for you." The info in the article clearly reflects what was said in 2010:
I'm aware of where it comes from; it doesn't change the fact that the description is inaccurate and doesn't apply to the Diablo series. When Jay says, "We didn't want the player to spend a ton of time banging on an anvil", he's only saying that they didn't make the Dialbo 3 crafting system like WoW. I suppose it's a good thing, ya know, to realize that an ARPG is not a MMORPG.
The point is that the Artisans do not do the crafting for you. Here's all the tasks related to crafting in Diablo 3 (keyword being tasks):
1) Salvaging items
2) Collecting and storing raw materials
3) Finding recipes
4) Collecting gold
5) Transmuting raw materials
Players salvage items; players collect and store the raw materials; players find the recipes; players collect the gold; players transmute raw materials (for clarity, they go to the Artisan, they chose the recipe, they press the button). The blacksmith doesn't actually do (i.e. "perform a task") anything to craft.
Not to mention that salvaging items involves all the "work" of dropping something you don't want or can't use into a salvage cube. And materials don't take up inventory space. All you have to do is basically a few extra clicks in your normal stop in town. After all, you'll have to visit the Blacksmith to repair anyways.
At Blizzcon, Jay also talked about how they wanted to improve the crafting system of Diablo 2. So to improve the system from Diablo 2, they added a dedicated NPC to do the crafting, and yet somehow it's more involved than it was before? That doesn't make any sense.
Well for one that would make it so that you could get gold and materials out of one item, which would kind of defeat the purpose of the desicion to salvage or not. Also, a large reason for allowing the player to salvage is so that you can free up inventory space outside of town.
Correct; easily made equivalent by increasing the price of using the materials. Jay Wilson has already stated that salvage is designed for items not worth selling in the first place. Nevertheless, the choice between salvaging an item and selling it isn't necessary to make the game better. Without salvage, it's basically equivalent to the choice between selling the item and just dropping it. Players already have enough options for items: discard, sell, equip, save for later, transfer to another character, or trade. Salvaging is just one more option that really doesn't add a lot of value.
Finally, the game is about killing demons, right? That's pretty much the point that justifies the Artisan and salvaging system. The more focus placed on having players make decisions over all the items that are constantly dropping, the less focus that's placed on killing demons.
This system is completely "optional". If it doesn't make sense to you then don't use it. Oh I just wished you just voted "I'm not going to spend time and resources crafting" and moved on...
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I love all loot fest kind of game! I will be playing all of them for the next few years. Loot fest games I'm looking forward to: LotR: War in the North,Torchlight 2,Borderlands 2 and of course Diablo 3.
The choice between salvaging an item and selling it is really no different than the choice between discarding it and selling it. In either cases, you've determined the item isn't worth selling. Normally, players would just discard the item and move on. Salvage serves the same purpose - the item is discarded and the player moves on - but it adds another step.
Of course you get materials with salvage. You can accomplish the same thing, however, by giving players material when they sell items (which they will be doing anyways). So you have two scenarios which yield the same result. Which is easier? Which scenario results in more action-packed gameplay?
Salvaging does. Because it makes it so that you have to go back to town less often by freeing up inventory space while allowing you to gain something from the items. And making it a decision between discard or salvage as opposed to sell or salvage (which I'm still not entirely sure is the case) makes the system even more optional, which is clearly a good thing for you as you obviously aren't a fan of this system.
I meant instead of just discarding them (which is the same as not picking them up). You whittled down the option players have with items to salvage or selling. If you don't include discarding in those options, then you imply that every item that drops should be picked up to be sold or salvaged. Having to deal with every item that drops (or risk losing out on part of the game) is crazy. Since I've asked twice and you haven't replied, I'll assume that means you've never played a game with salvaging. You should hope that Blizzard removes salvage between now and release so you never have to.
I've played plenty of games where something is done with items that would normally be discarded, like Fallout 3 where you can repair items using other ones of the same type. And you keep saying that without providing examples as to how its all that bad. And again, crafting is completely optional. You won't be "missing out" on something essential. I still fail to see how making it so that stuff that would normally discarded is instead useful is at all a bad thing.
Absolutely. The majority of items will be junk and go to waste - that's Diablo. Players understand that and no one has had a problem with it yet. We don't really need a system to try and make them useful - least of which is salvaging. It is tedious, and it won't entirely be optional. An end-game setup will call for level 14 gems. Level 14 gems calls for the highest level Jeweler. An end-game setup will call for the best enchantments (from the same Q&A, enchants work much like crafting recipes - enchantment "recipes" must be found and add a specific bonus to an item). The best enchantments call for the highest level Mystic. An end-game setup might call for the best crafting recipe. The best crafting recipe calls for the highest level Blacksmith. Do you want the best character (that it can be)? You've got to have the best Artisans.
Well for one its been made clear that a level 14 gem is entirely for min/maxing purposes and isn't at all neccessary, not to mention that leveling an Artisan only requires gold and not salvage, so in order to get a level 14 gem you'll only need a bunch of level 5 gems and gold. A similar system could easily be implemented for enchantments. Or you could ask a friend or pay someone to use their Artisans. From its announcement they've made it clear that its entirely optional, so I'd bet that will be the case, and you have no evidence to prove otherwise. Again, you just keep saying that salvaging is tedious without actually giving examples as to how its bad. You drop an item into a chest and it turns into something. Sure its not riveting, but its not at all time consuming. Not to mention that if you're the kind of person that enjoys grinding to get the best character, the Artisan system seems like a pretty easy grind compared to most.
The crafting system of others games is totally irrelevant to Diablo. I don't care if being able to kill enemies while waiting for an item is better than other games. I'm simply saying that the Artisans don't perform any actions which contribute to "crafting" as it pertains to the Diablo series.
Every action required to be taken that results in obtaining a crafted item is performed by the player - actions I've already outlined. So saying that the character "doesn't have to do any of the work" or that the "artisans do the crafting for you" is misleading. I don't know how else to say it.
Nobody ever said you didn't have to do any work. The only thing ever said was that they do the actual crafting process, aka the waiting process for you. So you can queue up a bunch of different things with your Artisans and pick them up when you get back to town. I fail to see how that isn't an advantage of the Artisan system. And again, the 'work' done by the character isn't all that bad. You keep saying salvaging is tedious without acknowledging that its dropping an item into a chest that sits right next to your inventory instead of dropping it on the ground. How is that so bad? What makes that so tedious, especially in comparison to other games? And to say that the crafting system of other games is irrelevant is pretty naive. Obviously ideas in current games build on ideas from past games.
ADDENDUM: As far as the idea that salvaging will be optional... when it comes to the match-making system, what happens when a player that does not salvage items gets paired with a player that does? The salvaging player is going to stop on the battlefield regularly to salvage the junk items that the non-salvaging player just ignores. He'll keep falling behind. Either the non-salvaging player will be held back and annoyed, or the salvaging player will have to mostly forgo salvaging while playing in that party.
For the last time, its instantaneous and requires dropping the items into a chest instead of the ground. It requires all the time and work of moving the item to the right and into the salvage chest instead of to the left and back onto the ground. Not to mention it makes to so that you don't have to go back to town to empty your stuff while still getting something out of it. I'd much rather "One sec inventory's full" (actually one sec) "Ok lets go" as opposed to "One sec my inventory's full" (go back to town and sell) "Ok lets go." After every fight in Diablo where loot drops people will be stopping to check out the loot for a few seconds. Salvaging won't add any substantial amount of time to that process. I don't know why you think it will. Its not like each item has to be broken down by itself. You stuff into the chest, and it gets turned into salvage right away. Again, you're moving the item to the right instead of to the left. No one's going to get all that held back by it.
I think the first thing I'll do is find out (via websites as this one; hopefully there will be a good db site) what is craftable and what I can get out of it and decide then.
Not a bad idea, however I think that the artisans will benefit not only at end game, but your journey along the way. Not only that, but the artisans will also help your future characters as well! =)
Yea. From what Jay Wilson has said, crafting can be used to fill in item slots that you haven't come across recently because of the random loot system. So if you're interested in it, its probably a good idea to level them as you go. Not that you'll be handicapped if you don't.
I'm going to try them all out on my first character and then focus on which is the most fun or useful. Maybe the jeweller, wish we had some more info though. I didn't like enchanting much in Torchlight, it was too easy to get powerful items.
So, I thought Blizzard said a while back that each character will only get to have access to one artisan out of the three. Is this true? Or can one character be leveling up all three at the same time? I couldn't find any info on it.
Anyways, I am looking forward to the crafting system, and will probably ending up leveling all of them up.
Everyone gains access to all three Artisans through three different quests that are part of the main storyline. After that its up to you as to how much you use them.
Well for one its been made clear that a level 14 gem is entirely for min/maxing purposes and isn't at all neccessary, not to mention that leveling an Artisan only requires gold and not salvage, so in order to get a level 14 gem you'll only need a bunch of level 5 gems and gold.
That's not confirmed, although I'm sure it's possible.
If anything, you should be happy about that as it makes it all the more optional. If you think its tedious, don't do it.
Jay Wilson does not make it sound very optional. He was asked at GamesCon 2010, "How much is salvaging going to become an aspect of the game? Is that something you're going to be doing continually?" His answer was, "It's pretty prevalent; you do it all the time."
Again, you just keep saying that salvaging is tedious without actually giving examples as to how its bad. You drop an item into a chest and it turns into something. Sure its not riveting, but its not at all time consuming.
You haven't played a game with salvage. I have. You've said it enough yourself, why do you need an example? Pick up an item, drop it in the salvage cube, press the button, collect the materials. For all the junk items. Over and over and over again. You don't see that as being tedious? Hope on to D2 and move everything in your inventory into the stash and back, over and over again. Or go kill enemies and pick up everything that drops. When your inventory gets full, just drop it all on the ground and repeat. Come back and tell me it's not tedious.
You keep saying salvaging is tedious without acknowledging that its dropping an item into a chest that sits right next to your inventory instead of dropping it on the ground. How is that so bad? What makes that so tedious, especially in comparison to other games? And to say that the crafting system of other games is irrelevant is pretty naive. Obviously ideas in current games build on ideas from past games.
The difference is that the junk items that are being salvaged are items that would not have been picked up in the first place otherwise. It's not simply just salvage the item instead of dropping it. Since the player is picking up all the junk instead of ignoring it, they're inventory fills up much faster and they have to stop much more often. Salvage isn't automatic (yet). You can put six items at a time into the salvage cube, you click the salvage button, and then confirm that you want to take the resulting materials.
I've only discussed the crafting mechanics as they are implemented in game thus far. It's possible to discuss how those mechanics work without discussing what influenced their creation.
@Eso: you managed to completely miss Jay Wilson's quote:
[quote=Eso;/comments/101909]Jay Wilson basically lays it out that players are not intended to salvage items that they would sell: GamesCon 2010 Q&A.
I agree that crafting/salvaging/collecting materials can get tedious. It wasn't fun in GW or WoW. Can you trade materials? Also, still no word on an auction house?
I think it will make a lot of difference just not having to store material junk in your inventory, that gets old fast when you have less room because of 10 or 20 different material types.
You should really read Bashiok's stuff in this thread on the B.net forums. Its more recent than GamesCon 2010, and most of it is actually clarification on things that Jay Wilson and other Diablo people said during the announcement of the Artisans at the convention.
You don’t need to salvage anything if you don’t want to. It’s an optional way to craft items and fill out your set. Don’t care about crafting or want to spend time picking stuff up and salvaging it? Ignore it. You may have to kill more to get a piece you want, but that’s your choice.
And the whole quote that maka was talking about, which was made in order to clarify the stuff he said at GamesCon:
Jay’s response was “If its not worth picking up for gold, it is definitely not worth picking up for crafting.”
Essentially any player worth their salt is going to favor gold over crafting materials, simply because it’s required for so many other things that are important to a high level character. And essentially a lot of this comes down to tuning and making sure the relationship between all of the systems isn’t broken, and all we can say to that is we appreciate your passion for the game.
Which all pretty much clarifies that you won't be going out of your way to get salvage. If you're keeping up with your Artisan, the lower level stuff that you're getting, which would normally be sold, is instead salvaged.
You haven't played a game with salvage. I have. You've said it enough yourself, why do you need an example? Pick up an item, drop it in the salvage cube, press the button, collect the materials. For all the junk items. Over and over and over again. You don't see that as being tedious? Hope on to D2 and move everything in your inventory into the stash and back, over and over again. Or go kill enemies and pick up everything that drops. When your inventory gets full, just drop it all on the ground and repeat. Come back and tell me it's not tedious.
I usually play through Diablo (or at least did early on) picking up almost everything that drops for gold. Its not all that bad, and salvaging, again, can be done outside of town, so its going to be even less tedious than D2 where you had to go back to town every time to sell. And again, as the quotes above show, you won't be picking up stuff thats absolutely worthless. The items you'll be salvaging are items you'd be holding on to in order to sell them anyways. So no, it won't be for all the junk items. Its the same thing that you'll be doing in order to collect gold, just instead of using a Scroll of Wealth or going back to a vendor you'll be putting it in the salvage cube. You can argue thats a bit tedious, but not any more than selling items is tedious, and nowhere near the game killing boringness you're making it out to be.
Which involves choosing between salvaging and selling an item, and I guess putting it in your stash. Theres even designated inventory slots for materials.
Which will be (presumably) easier than finding runes in D2.
Which you would do anyways, and to have a good gold economy you need gold sinks
What? If you mean bringing them to the Artisan then thats not hard. Otherwise I don't know what you're talking about.
In pretty much any game with a real crafting system (aka not D2, lets be real), the worst part of it is collecting materials and crafting (obviously). In D3, you collect salvage by simply dropping an item into a box right next to your inventory, which is easy, and the crafting part (as in the part that actually takes time as the item is made) is done by the Artisan. As in, if you want to make an item and it takes 30 seconds to make after you bring all the materials to the crafting area you don't actually have to sit there for those 30 seconds. So sure, compared to D2's not-actually-crafting crafting system you might end up having to spend more time/gold. But the only hard part of D3's system is probably going to be finding recipes and coming up with the gold. The first one will be (again) easier than finding runes, and the second is neccessary (along with other gold sinks) to have gold actually be useful.
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The point I am making about listing the tasks involved in crafting is not that they are "hard" (although they can be tedious), it's that they're all tasks that the players have to complete. The artisan isn't responsible for any of the actual tasks. Therefore, Jay Wilson is incorrect when he describes that the "artisans will do the crafting for you". The Artisans don't do anything; they are just the place the player must visit to transmute the items.
On a related note, have you ever played a game where players could salvage items?
BTW I was forming my post while you posted last; I edited in my responses to it on the previous page.
Well discarding does nothing for anyone, and you won't really be doing that in D3. Theres the Scroll of Wealth to sell stuff on the go, and salvaging. Also, when are you really saving for later? Especially considering items get unlocked with levels, not stats. So the real options are sell, equip, transfer, trade or salvage. Equip and transfering only really happen every now and then, and you'll only trade really valuable stuff, so its pretty much sell or salvage that you have to decide on an item to item basis. I don't know why you think it doesn't add a lot of value, but considering that its part of a pretty (imo) sweet crafting system I'd say it does.
Again, its not like you'll be debating it for half an hour. If you're going to equip something or transfer it to another character you'll know soon after the item is identified, so really its just a debate between sell or salvage. And which one of those you choose you'll also probably know pretty easily based on what you're working towards.
But they actually do the crafting for you. No matter how you put it, they're the ones who are having to spend the time crafting once you give them the materials. You know all the complaints you've had about this system? They could be easily applied to most crafting systems, but the Artisans and salvaging makes it so that theres not a time commitment involved with gathering the items (unless your farming for that specific purpose) or the actual crafting once you have all the materials.
I'm not saying that the crafting system doesn't detract from killing demons, thats unavoidable. I'm just saying it detracts from the action a lot less than most crafting systems.
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Jay Wilson's statements fromGamesCon 2010 Q&A directly refute that idea. That happens to be the latest source of information concerning the Artisans and salvaging.
You can save an item for later when they might be useful in different areas of the game or when you aren't able to use them yet. Many items are just going to be junk, so they should be discarded (I guess I should clarify that discarding includes not picking up the item in the first place). Are you seriously arguing that they should be salvaged instead? You want players to salvage every single item that drops in the game? Have you ever played a game where players had to salvage items?
Jay Wilson basically lays it out that players are not intended to salvage items that they would sell: GamesCon 2010 Q&A. It sounds like making a decision about what to do with an item won't be an issue. That makes it a choice between salvage and discard. Salvaging just adds an extra step in the process. Instead of ignoring junk item, you have to pick them up, salvage them, and tote around the materials (which take up normal inventory space, not a dedicated partition, FYI). Instead of just dropping items you picked up and don't need, you have to salvage them. I've played a game with salvage - it's tedious. After awhile, you want to stop doing it, but since you know it's required for leveling Artisans and crafting, you still have to do it, at which point it will become downright aggravating.
By moving the task of salvaging to the Blacksmith, it's possible to keep the same crafting system, which should cover your concern about salvaging adding value.
The artisan isn't doing anything in that time; it's just something that makes the player wait. We already know that there's no action, task, or process, like banging on an anvil, required to craft an item. Of course not; it never belonged in Diablo anyways. I've already listed the actual tasks associated with crafting. I suppose you could add one more:
1) Salvaging items
2) Collecting and storing raw materials
3) Finding recipes
4) Collecting gold
5) Transmuting raw materials
6) Wait for item to finish
Once again, it's the player who is the one waiting. These are all activities in the game as it stands - I'm not talking about hypothetical tasks such as "7) Bang on anvil in town for two hours" that were never part of the game in the first place. Some of them are fun (finding recipes, gold, transmuting), other are just tedious (salvaging, collecting the materials, waiting). It is much better to move have the Artisans handle the tedious tasks so the player just has to worry about the fun stuff.
Where are you getting that from? I'm arguing that salvaging is a legitimate option, not that every item should be salvaged. I don't even imply that. In fact, I said that you would have to choose between selling and salvaging on most items, as most will be junk that you wouldn't consider wearing or trading. Obviously those videos you posted show that instead its discard or salvage, but are you honestly saying that all those items go to waste instead of being used in some kind of system? If anything, you should be happy about that as it makes it all the more optional. If you think its tedious, don't do it.
How does it make it less tedious to have to carry all the stuff back to the Blacksmith? That just makes it so that you have to make more trips back to town if you want to get the most salvage. Again, part of its design is to free up inventory space through a method other than discarding. Even if it takes up inventory space they stack to at least 50, probably higher.
Fine. The waiting part of many crafting systems is boring. But all I've been saying is that its a feature of almost every crafting system out there that the actual making of the item takes time. The Artisan system makes it so that instead of being bound to an area for that waiting time, you can go back out into the action. How is that bad? And again, salvaging is nearly instantaneous and you simply drop items into a chest thats right under your inventory, and according to what you've said its only the junk that you need to salvage, which makes "collecting" them a part of every dungeon run. Ever play inventory tetris in D2? It'll probably take less time than that.
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I have always thought games should have a system of crafting instead of just having a chest piece drop from an over sized demon or something. Like a horn may drop, that can be crafted into a necklace and when combined with a gem can give it certain properties etc. in saying that though i think you should need to collect resources to(like runscape...lame) and then that just detracts from killing demons.
Thanks Caniroth for the awesome sig!
I usually like to know how all the features of the game work.
I guess too that artisans skills will be easily modified by patches and eventual expansions, adding to the lifespan of the game (this said by someone who's still playing D2 LoD )
About salvaging and crafting: I see no problem here, you like to salvage and craft, you do that; you don't like it you just drop or sell stuff, then you can collect money and buy stuff you need from other players.
I take it artisans are there not just to add a nice feature but mostly as a part of the "diablo economic system"
The choice between salvaging an item and selling it is really no different than the choice between discarding it and selling it. In either cases, you've determined the item isn't worth selling. Normally, players would just discard the item and move on. Salvage serves the same purpose - the item is discarded and the player moves on - but it adds another step.
Of course you get materials with salvage. You can accomplish the same thing, however, by giving players material when they sell items (which they will be doing anyways). So you have two scenarios which yield the same result. Which is easier? Which scenario results in more action-packed gameplay?
I meant instead of just discarding them (which is the same as not picking them up). You whittled down the option players have with items to salvage or selling. If you don't include discarding in those options, then you imply that every item that drops should be picked up to be sold or salvaged. Having to deal with every item that drops (or risk losing out on part of the game) is crazy. Since I've asked twice and you haven't replied, I'll assume that means you've never played a game with salvaging. You should hope that Blizzard removes salvage between now and release so you never have to.
Absolutely. The majority of items will be junk and go to waste - that's Diablo. Players understand that and no one has had a problem with it yet. We don't really need a system to try and make them useful - least of which is salvaging. It is tedious, and it won't entirely be optional. An end-game setup will call for level 14 gems. Level 14 gems calls for the highest level Jeweler. An end-game setup will call for the best enchantments (from the same Q&A, enchants work much like crafting recipes - enchantment "recipes" must be found and add a specific bonus to an item). The best enchantments call for the highest level Mystic. An end-game setup might call for the best crafting recipe. The best crafting recipe calls for the highest level Blacksmith. Do you want the best character (that it can be)? You've got to have the best Artisans.
The bottom line is that you can accomplish everything without having players salvage their own items as you can with salvage. The only difference is that salvage is more tedious.
The crafting system of others games is totally irrelevant to Diablo. I don't care if being able to kill enemies while waiting for an item is better than other games. I'm simply saying that the Artisans don't perform any actions which contribute to "crafting" as it pertains to the Diablo series.
Every action required to be taken that results in obtaining a crafted item is performed by the player - actions I've already outlined. So saying that the character "doesn't have to do any of the work" or that the "artisans do the crafting for you" is misleading. I don't know how else to say it.
ADDENDUM: As far as the idea that salvaging will be optional... when it comes to the match-making system, what happens when a player that does not salvage items gets paired with a player that does? The salvaging player is going to stop on the battlefield regularly to salvage the junk items that the non-salvaging player just ignores. He'll keep falling behind. Either the non-salvaging player will be held back and annoyed, or the salvaging player will have to mostly forgo salvaging while playing in that party.
This system is completely "optional". If it doesn't make sense to you then don't use it. Oh I just wished you just voted "I'm not going to spend time and resources crafting" and moved on...
I've played plenty of games where something is done with items that would normally be discarded, like Fallout 3 where you can repair items using other ones of the same type. And you keep saying that without providing examples as to how its all that bad. And again, crafting is completely optional. You won't be "missing out" on something essential. I still fail to see how making it so that stuff that would normally discarded is instead useful is at all a bad thing.
Well for one its been made clear that a level 14 gem is entirely for min/maxing purposes and isn't at all neccessary, not to mention that leveling an Artisan only requires gold and not salvage, so in order to get a level 14 gem you'll only need a bunch of level 5 gems and gold. A similar system could easily be implemented for enchantments. Or you could ask a friend or pay someone to use their Artisans. From its announcement they've made it clear that its entirely optional, so I'd bet that will be the case, and you have no evidence to prove otherwise. Again, you just keep saying that salvaging is tedious without actually giving examples as to how its bad. You drop an item into a chest and it turns into something. Sure its not riveting, but its not at all time consuming. Not to mention that if you're the kind of person that enjoys grinding to get the best character, the Artisan system seems like a pretty easy grind compared to most.
Nobody ever said you didn't have to do any work. The only thing ever said was that they do the actual crafting process, aka the waiting process for you. So you can queue up a bunch of different things with your Artisans and pick them up when you get back to town. I fail to see how that isn't an advantage of the Artisan system. And again, the 'work' done by the character isn't all that bad. You keep saying salvaging is tedious without acknowledging that its dropping an item into a chest that sits right next to your inventory instead of dropping it on the ground. How is that so bad? What makes that so tedious, especially in comparison to other games? And to say that the crafting system of other games is irrelevant is pretty naive. Obviously ideas in current games build on ideas from past games.
For the last time, its instantaneous and requires dropping the items into a chest instead of the ground. It requires all the time and work of moving the item to the right and into the salvage chest instead of to the left and back onto the ground. Not to mention it makes to so that you don't have to go back to town to empty your stuff while still getting something out of it. I'd much rather "One sec inventory's full" (actually one sec) "Ok lets go" as opposed to "One sec my inventory's full" (go back to town and sell) "Ok lets go." After every fight in Diablo where loot drops people will be stopping to check out the loot for a few seconds. Salvaging won't add any substantial amount of time to that process. I don't know why you think it will. Its not like each item has to be broken down by itself. You stuff into the chest, and it gets turned into salvage right away. Again, you're moving the item to the right instead of to the left. No one's going to get all that held back by it.
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We seem to be spoilt for choice in D3.
Anyways, I am looking forward to the crafting system, and will probably ending up leveling all of them up.
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That's not confirmed, although I'm sure it's possible.
Jay Wilson does not make it sound very optional. He was asked at GamesCon 2010, "How much is salvaging going to become an aspect of the game? Is that something you're going to be doing continually?" His answer was, "It's pretty prevalent; you do it all the time."
You haven't played a game with salvage. I have. You've said it enough yourself, why do you need an example? Pick up an item, drop it in the salvage cube, press the button, collect the materials. For all the junk items. Over and over and over again. You don't see that as being tedious? Hope on to D2 and move everything in your inventory into the stash and back, over and over again. Or go kill enemies and pick up everything that drops. When your inventory gets full, just drop it all on the ground and repeat. Come back and tell me it's not tedious.
That was a direct quote from the article.
The difference is that the junk items that are being salvaged are items that would not have been picked up in the first place otherwise. It's not simply just salvage the item instead of dropping it. Since the player is picking up all the junk instead of ignoring it, they're inventory fills up much faster and they have to stop much more often. Salvage isn't automatic (yet). You can put six items at a time into the salvage cube, you click the salvage button, and then confirm that you want to take the resulting materials.
I've only discussed the crafting mechanics as they are implemented in game thus far. It's possible to discuss how those mechanics work without discussing what influenced their creation.
I think it will make a lot of difference just not having to store material junk in your inventory, that gets old fast when you have less room because of 10 or 20 different material types.
And the whole quote that maka was talking about, which was made in order to clarify the stuff he said at GamesCon:
Which all pretty much clarifies that you won't be going out of your way to get salvage. If you're keeping up with your Artisan, the lower level stuff that you're getting, which would normally be sold, is instead salvaged.
I usually play through Diablo (or at least did early on) picking up almost everything that drops for gold. Its not all that bad, and salvaging, again, can be done outside of town, so its going to be even less tedious than D2 where you had to go back to town every time to sell. And again, as the quotes above show, you won't be picking up stuff thats absolutely worthless. The items you'll be salvaging are items you'd be holding on to in order to sell them anyways. So no, it won't be for all the junk items. Its the same thing that you'll be doing in order to collect gold, just instead of using a Scroll of Wealth or going back to a vendor you'll be putting it in the salvage cube. You can argue thats a bit tedious, but not any more than selling items is tedious, and nowhere near the game killing boringness you're making it out to be.
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