Genocide of any seems far from a justifiable action that would allow El'Duran to pass through Maltheal.
I guess it comes back to the question of does the ends justify the means...
How does Eldruin justify something as righteous anyway? Does it have a moral standard? If it is it's probably a standard that goes beyond mortal understanding and/or normal convention. Maybe it's a standard biased towards the High Heavens but who knows.
That same question can be asked for Kal-El killing Zod, or Batman refusing to save Ras.
Genocide of any seems far from a justifiable action that would allow El'Duran to pass through Maltheal.
I guess it comes back to the question of does the ends justify the means...
How does Eldruin justify something as righteous anyway? Does it have a moral standard? If it is it's probably a standard that goes beyond mortal understanding and/or normal convention. Maybe it's a standard biased towards the High Heavens but who knows.
Yeah I agree with you there actually ... otherwise who was the aspect of justice, Tyreal or El'durin..
I think I am thrown off by Josh Mosqueira's interview where he said that Maltheal's actions were justifiable.
But I guess justifiable doesn't exactly mean righteous.
Malthael did not just abstain because he was not wise enough to decide. He abstain because he did not care. At least this is what he said and what's written. Malthael first purpose is not hunting down the Nephalems. Remember that the event that really mattered to Malthael is the destruction of the world stone. This is what drove him crazy. This is where he started all is wondering thinking about the meaning of life and death. He did not give a fuck about Nephalems.
Malthael was first interested in getting his hands on the black soul stone. Why? He wants some sort of power in order to achieve something. That something is presumed to be righteous intent since El'druin passed trough him.
Malthael then goes wandering about collecting the essences of demons, angels and the living things upon sanctuary. What will happen when all Angels and demons will be trapped into the black soulstone? Seems to me like the essence of Anu and Tathamet being reunited. Will the black soul stone form the pearl that was once at the beginning of all time?
Now, this is what you find on Wiki when you search for Anu:
Made of shining diamond. Anu was the sum of all things: good and evil, light and dark, physical and mystical, joy and sadness—all reflected across the crystalline facets of its form. And, within its eternal dream-state, Anu considered itself—all of its myriad facets. Seeking a state of total purity and perfection, Anu cast all evil from itself. All dissonance was gone. But what of the cast-off aspect of its being? The dark parts, the sharp, searing aspects of hate and pridefulness? Those could not remain in a state of separation, for all things are drawn to all things. All parts are drawn to the whole. Those discordant parts assembled into the Beast-the Dragon. Tathamet was his name-and he breathed unending death and darkness from his seven devouring heads. The Dragon was solely composed of Anu's cast-off aspects. The end sum of the whole became a singular Evil- the Prime Evil, from which all the vileness would eventually spread throughout existence.
The diamond warrior and the seven-headed dragon proved to be the equal of the other, neither ever gaining the upper hand in their fierce and unending combat-till at last, their energies nearly spent after countless millennia of battle, the two combatants delivered their final blows. The energies unleashed by their impossible fury ignited an explosion of light and matter so vast and terrible that it birthed the very universe all around us.
Now, once again, i will ask you guys, what will happen if Malthael successfully traps all aspects, dark and light? Will it result in the creation of a new universe? Malthael became a madmen because of the world stone. He probably found the way to feed his needs. If Malthael was to revive the worldstone or a new universe, this would definitely be something that we could call righteous intents. I believe that Malthael is still haunted by the world stone and all his actions are driven by that. Why Malthael did not appeared earlier in the story? Seems to me like he appeared not long after the black soulstone was retrieved.
Now, once again, i will ask you guys, what will happen if Malthael successfully traps all aspects, dark and light? Will it result in the creation of a new universe? Malthael became a madmen because of the world stone. He probably found the way to feed his needs. If Malthael was to revive the worldstone or a new universe, this would definitely be something that we could call righteous intents. I believe that Malthael is still haunted by the world stone and all his actions are driven by that. Why Malthael did not appeared earlier in the story? Seems to me like he appeared not long after the black soulstone was retrieved.
I like where you are going with this - especially since Zoltun Kulle made the Soul stone to also capture Angels.
I don't think he went crazy. I mean if he was being philosophical on existence and asking the big questions but he can't answer them just because he is Wisdom and that made him 'crazy' i think that is a stretch. He is Wisdom and I think he has to be the most logical being in existence and would not let emotions get the best of him to make him 'crazy'.
Maybe... he is trying to do what you say and create a new universe. MAYBE that new universe would be for Angels and Demons only and would leave Sanctuary and the Nephalem to exist without Angels or Demons.. 2 universes that could not touch each other...
Malthael did not just abstain because he was not wise enough to decide. He abstain because he did not care. At least this is what he said and what's written. Malthael first purpose is not hunting down the Nephalems. Remember that the event that really mattered to Malthael is the destruction of the world stone. This is what drove him crazy. This is where he started all is wondering thinking about the meaning of life and death. He did not give a fuck about Nephalems.
Malthael was first interested in getting his hands on the black soul stone. Why? He wants some sort of power in order to achieve something. That something is presumed to be righteous intent since El'druin passed trough him.
Malthael then goes wandering about collecting the essences of demons, angels and the living things upon sanctuary. What will happen when all Angels and demons will be trapped into the black soulstone? Seems to me like the essence of Anu and Tathamet being reunited. Will the black soul stone form the pearl that was once at the beginning of all time?
Now, this is what you find on Wiki when you search for Anu:
Made of shining diamond. Anu was the sum of all things: good and evil, light and dark, physical and mystical, joy and sadness—all reflected across the crystalline facets of its form. And, within its eternal dream-state, Anu considered itself—all of its myriad facets. Seeking a state of total purity and perfection, Anu cast all evil from itself. All dissonance was gone. But what of the cast-off aspect of its being? The dark parts, the sharp, searing aspects of hate and pridefulness? Those could not remain in a state of separation, for all things are drawn to all things. All parts are drawn to the whole. Those discordant parts assembled into the Beast-the Dragon. Tathamet was his name-and he breathed unending death and darkness from his seven devouring heads. The Dragon was solely composed of Anu's cast-off aspects. The end sum of the whole became a singular Evil- the Prime Evil, from which all the vileness would eventually spread throughout existence.
The diamond warrior and the seven-headed dragon proved to be the equal of the other, neither ever gaining the upper hand in their fierce and unending combat-till at last, their energies nearly spent after countless millennia of battle, the two combatants delivered their final blows. The energies unleashed by their impossible fury ignited an explosion of light and matter so vast and terrible that it birthed the very universe all around us.
Now, once again, i will ask you guys, what will happen if Malthael successfully traps all aspects, dark and light? Will it result in the creation of a new universe? Malthael became a madmen because of the world stone. He probably found the way to feed his needs. If Malthael was to revive the worldstone or a new universe, this would definitely be something that we could call righteous intents. I believe that Malthael is still haunted by the world stone and all his actions are driven by that. Why Malthael did not appeared earlier in the story? Seems to me like he appeared not long after the black soulstone was retrieved.
Where do you get this connection of him not carrying? Also, he was shrinking into darkness before the worldstone's desctruction. It was after that when he left the High Heavens. Also, if he wanted to trap every angel and demon in the stone, why did he leave Tyreal? Malthael sensed that he was not mortal, he most likely knew that he was actually a fallen angel. Though I doubt he knew that it was in fact, Tyrael. And also, if he did trap every angel and demon, who would be able to control the Soulstone to create a new universe? As we have already seen, the Lords of Hell can hardly be contained in the stone. So all of the Archangels being in it as well could quite possibly destroy it.
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I don't always burn. But when I do, I use hellfire.
I'm pretty confident in that Malthael knew it was Tyrael.
That, I can't say for sure. I mean, all of our encounters with Tyrael as an angel has been with his hood up. We never even saw his face. So is his current face that which was under the hood or do angels even have faces? Cause all the other angels besides Imperius have hoods and we don't even see a head nor eyes under those hoods. And even for Imperius, we don't see his face. Just his helm on top of a black, thing. Though he could have noticed it was Tyrael if what he saw resembled the Tyrael he knew. But I still think he just sensed it was an angel type soul. And that's why he left him alone.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I don't always burn. But when I do, I use hellfire.
Malthael did not just abstain because he was not wise enough to decide. He abstain because he did not care. At least this is what he said and what's written. Malthael first purpose is not hunting down the Nephalems. Remember that the event that really mattered to Malthael is the destruction of the world stone. This is what drove him crazy. This is where he started all is wondering thinking about the meaning of life and death. He did not give a fuck about Nephalems.
Malthael was first interested in getting his hands on the black soul stone. Why? He wants some sort of power in order to achieve something. That something is presumed to be righteous intent since El'druin passed trough him.
Malthael then goes wandering about collecting the essences of demons, angels and the living things upon sanctuary. What will happen when all Angels and demons will be trapped into the black soulstone? Seems to me like the essence of Anu and Tathamet being reunited. Will the black soul stone form the pearl that was once at the beginning of all time?
Now, this is what you find on Wiki when you search for Anu:
Made of shining diamond. Anu was the sum of all things: good and evil, light and dark, physical and mystical, joy and sadness—all reflected across the crystalline facets of its form. And, within its eternal dream-state, Anu considered itself—all of its myriad facets. Seeking a state of total purity and perfection, Anu cast all evil from itself. All dissonance was gone. But what of the cast-off aspect of its being? The dark parts, the sharp, searing aspects of hate and pridefulness? Those could not remain in a state of separation, for all things are drawn to all things. All parts are drawn to the whole. Those discordant parts assembled into the Beast-the Dragon. Tathamet was his name-and he breathed unending death and darkness from his seven devouring heads. The Dragon was solely composed of Anu's cast-off aspects. The end sum of the whole became a singular Evil- the Prime Evil, from which all the vileness would eventually spread throughout existence.
The diamond warrior and the seven-headed dragon proved to be the equal of the other, neither ever gaining the upper hand in their fierce and unending combat-till at last, their energies nearly spent after countless millennia of battle, the two combatants delivered their final blows. The energies unleashed by their impossible fury ignited an explosion of light and matter so vast and terrible that it birthed the very universe all around us.
Now, once again, i will ask you guys, what will happen if Malthael successfully traps all aspects, dark and light? Will it result in the creation of a new universe? Malthael became a madmen because of the world stone. He probably found the way to feed his needs. If Malthael was to revive the worldstone or a new universe, this would definitely be something that we could call righteous intents. I believe that Malthael is still haunted by the world stone and all his actions are driven by that. Why Malthael did not appeared earlier in the story? Seems to me like he appeared not long after the black soulstone was retrieved.
Where do you get this connection of him not carrying? Also, he was shrinking into darkness before the worldstone's desctruction. It was after that when he left the High Heavens. Also, if he wanted to trap every angel and demon in the stone, why did he leave Tyreal? Malthael sensed that he was not mortal, he most likely knew that he was actually a fallen angel. Though I doubt he knew that it was in fact, Tyrael. And also, if he did trap every angel and demon, who would be able to control the Soulstone to create a new universe? As we have already seen, the Lords of Hell can hardly be contained in the stone. So all of the Archangels being in it as well could quite possibly destroy it.
Malthael said himself that he does not care in "The vailed prophet".
"Whatever the choice in the end, it does not matter for me... I abstain."
Selathiel says in D3 act4 that Malthael was lost to them the moment the world stone disappear.
"Much uncertainty surrounds the archangel Malthael. Once the calm guiding hand of wisdom, he was lost to us the moment the Worldstone disappeared. Unable to fathom that catastrophic event, he abandoned Heaven. His departure has created a colossal fracture within the council, one that to this day remains unrepaired."
I think that Malthael left Tyrael live because he was not "an angel" as to speak. Tyrael became mortal so it might not be the time to removes Tyrael's essence right now for Malthael. Maybe he is waiting for Tyrael to regain his angelic powers.
About trapping everything in the soul stone, if you recall correctly, Anu was the sum of all to begin with and all of this was contained in something similar to a pearl. That pearl exploded to create the universe after the final blow was dealt by Anu and Tathamet.
regardless of whether Malthael knew Tyrael was Tyrael, El'druin was still in his hand. he knew it was El'druin, especially since he probably KNEW it would go through him, hence why he walked into it. that being said, when Tyrael said his name, i see that as a, "wtf? Tyrael, that you brah?" who knows, maybe he can't reap the souls of angels and demons. he clearly PWNED the horadrim like they was babycakes. perhaps his goal is to eradicate all life, and release the demons from the soulstone. nephalem are 50/50 angel/demon. to me, it seems nephalem are his goal. the black soulstone takes in both. Nephalem are super powered. would it not be easier to simply erase us, rather than try to kill us?
I think Covetus Shen was Malthael under cover All in all, he said he was looking for a particularly slippery gem/stone, that he already had once - which could be the soulstone. We first met him in Act II, exactly where the black soulstone was found.
Sounds like a stretch, but it would be hilarious to find out your companion was The Death itself all along.
I don't know.. Covetus Shen seemed to have a sense of humour and talks a lot... Malthael seems almost the complete opposite. I don't think he is a good enough actor.
It is a long shot, but maybe, just maybe..Malthael feels the stone would not be safer anywhere else besides with him, like the warrior in D1, so he needed to get the power to keep Demons/Angels/Nephalem alike away from him, so he became the angel of death in order to protect the world which is why he can not be pierced by Eldruin.
I think Covetus Shen was Malthael under cover All in all, he said he was looking for a particularly slippery gem/stone, that he already had once - which could be the soulstone. We first met him in Act II, exactly where the black soulstone was found.
Sounds like a stretch, but it would be hilarious to find out your companion was The Death itself all along.
I don't know.. Covetus Shen seemed to have a sense of humour and talks a lot... Malthael seems almost the complete opposite. I don't think he is a good enough actor.
Yeah, that has been hinted alot in the game. Seems more believable and probable. Malthael may seem the complete opposite in character, however it's entirely possible to pretend. He's an aspect of wisdom, so maybe he figured it'd be easier to follow the nephalem and tyrael around and let them do the dirty work.
It's just an idea, but It'd make an interesting plot twist, wouldnt it?
Blizzard doing an unpredictable plot twist... its a stretch for them. They are not exactly the writers for game of thrones...
I'm pretty sure Malthael's ultimate plan is to use the Black Soulstone to replace the Worldstone. He needs to purify it, and will probably use the essence of the Angiris Council (or perhaps Humanity?) to do it. Tyrael's selflessness will foil his plan (he lost his angelic essence upon becoming mortal), leading to the corrupted Soulstone being at the center of Creation. Leah's essence will probably be released, however. We'll rescue her spirit in the next expansion where she'll reveal how to purify it, leading to happiness and Disney sunsets.
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Be it through hallowed grounds or lands of sorrow
All in the Forger's wake is left bereft and fallow
Is the residuum worth the cost of destruction and maiming;
Or is the shaping a culling and exercise in taming?
The road's goal is the dark Origin of Being
But be wary through what thickets it winds.
-Excerpt from the Litany of Residuum;
As Translated by He Who Brings Order
Malthael's the Reaper of Souls. Why is he interested in souls? Why is grain reaped? To harvest it, to use it, and to preserve it from weather that would destroy the grain.
So here's an idea. Maybe Malthael is trying to SAVE humanity/Nephilim. The Eternal Conflict seems to be in its end stages. The Prime and Lesser Evils are destroyed, or at least contained, the demonic forces in Sanctuary have been routed and destroyed, and the Burning Hells are ripe for a final invasion by Heaven's forces (And hey, what do you know? We'll be going to the Pandemonium Fortress, whcih is Heaven's deepest bastion in the Hells,a nd the jumping-off point for their previous incursions into the Hells.).
So perhaps Malthael forsees the angels and the remaining demons destroying themselves in one last enormous war, one that will rage across not only the Heavens and hells, but across Sanctuary, as the prophecy of the End Times fortells. Knowing this, he's decided that the forces of Heaven and Hell are a lost cause. They're going to play out their pearts according to their natures to the bitter end, and if that means bringing Creation down in ruins around them, so be it. But if Malthael can harvest the souls of Humanity, he can shelter them from the End Times and restore them, allow them to rebuild amidst the rubble of Creation after the last angel and the last demon destory each other.
Edit: It occurs to that this also provides an excellent reasoning for Malthael letting Tyrael live in the video. Obviously he recognized Tyrael; they'd fought side by side for eons. But angels can assume the guise of mortals, as the Prophet did when he trained Eirena and her sisters. But the moment he began to take Tyrael's soul, he realized that Tyrael was human. Angels and demons in Diablo seem to lack free will: they must act according to their natures, whether for good or evil. But here was another way. A way for angels,a nd perhaps even demons, to shed those limitations and become free. Free to choose not to destroy wach other. If nothing else, it would be worth considering and observing. And meanwhile, Mathael can go on about his original plan in case Tyrael is a fluke.
Maybe Malthael wants to set in motion the end of the eternal conflict by bringing back Tathamet and having the Nephalem kill him considering they've been able to defeat every prime evil single handedly which all of the heavens couldn't do combined. We've been able to invade Hell twice and now we are about to go through the pandemonium fortress twice and we've made it to heaven once, maybe Malthael just sees us as a tool to use.
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How does Eldruin justify something as righteous anyway? Does it have a moral standard? If it is it's probably a standard that goes beyond mortal understanding and/or normal convention. Maybe it's a standard biased towards the High Heavens but who knows.
That same question can be asked for Kal-El killing Zod, or Batman refusing to save Ras.
Yeah I agree with you there actually ... otherwise who was the aspect of justice, Tyreal or El'durin..
I think I am thrown off by Josh Mosqueira's interview where he said that Maltheal's actions were justifiable.
But I guess justifiable doesn't exactly mean righteous.
Malthael was first interested in getting his hands on the black soul stone. Why? He wants some sort of power in order to achieve something. That something is presumed to be righteous intent since El'druin passed trough him.
Malthael then goes wandering about collecting the essences of demons, angels and the living things upon sanctuary. What will happen when all Angels and demons will be trapped into the black soulstone? Seems to me like the essence of Anu and Tathamet being reunited. Will the black soul stone form the pearl that was once at the beginning of all time?
Now, this is what you find on Wiki when you search for Anu:
Made of shining diamond. Anu was the sum of all things: good and evil, light and dark, physical and mystical, joy and sadness—all reflected across the crystalline facets of its form. And, within its eternal dream-state, Anu considered itself—all of its myriad facets. Seeking a state of total purity and perfection, Anu cast all evil from itself. All dissonance was gone. But what of the cast-off aspect of its being? The dark parts, the sharp, searing aspects of hate and pridefulness? Those could not remain in a state of separation, for all things are drawn to all things. All parts are drawn to the whole. Those discordant parts assembled into the Beast-the Dragon. Tathamet was his name-and he breathed unending death and darkness from his seven devouring heads. The Dragon was solely composed of Anu's cast-off aspects. The end sum of the whole became a singular Evil- the Prime Evil, from which all the vileness would eventually spread throughout existence.
The diamond warrior and the seven-headed dragon proved to be the equal of the other, neither ever gaining the upper hand in their fierce and unending combat-till at last, their energies nearly spent after countless millennia of battle, the two combatants delivered their final blows. The energies unleashed by their impossible fury ignited an explosion of light and matter so vast and terrible that it birthed the very universe all around us.
Now, once again, i will ask you guys, what will happen if Malthael successfully traps all aspects, dark and light? Will it result in the creation of a new universe? Malthael became a madmen because of the world stone. He probably found the way to feed his needs. If Malthael was to revive the worldstone or a new universe, this would definitely be something that we could call righteous intents. I believe that Malthael is still haunted by the world stone and all his actions are driven by that. Why Malthael did not appeared earlier in the story? Seems to me like he appeared not long after the black soulstone was retrieved.
I like where you are going with this - especially since Zoltun Kulle made the Soul stone to also capture Angels.
I don't think he went crazy. I mean if he was being philosophical on existence and asking the big questions but he can't answer them just because he is Wisdom and that made him 'crazy' i think that is a stretch. He is Wisdom and I think he has to be the most logical being in existence and would not let emotions get the best of him to make him 'crazy'.
Maybe... he is trying to do what you say and create a new universe. MAYBE that new universe would be for Angels and Demons only and would leave Sanctuary and the Nephalem to exist without Angels or Demons.. 2 universes that could not touch each other...
Malthael said himself that he does not care in "The vailed prophet".
"Whatever the choice in the end, it does not matter for me... I abstain."
Selathiel says in D3 act4 that Malthael was lost to them the moment the world stone disappear.
"Much uncertainty surrounds the archangel Malthael. Once the calm guiding hand of wisdom, he was lost to us the moment the Worldstone disappeared. Unable to fathom that catastrophic event, he abandoned Heaven. His departure has created a colossal fracture within the council, one that to this day remains unrepaired."
I think that Malthael left Tyrael live because he was not "an angel" as to speak. Tyrael became mortal so it might not be the time to removes Tyrael's essence right now for Malthael. Maybe he is waiting for Tyrael to regain his angelic powers.
About trapping everything in the soul stone, if you recall correctly, Anu was the sum of all to begin with and all of this was contained in something similar to a pearl. That pearl exploded to create the universe after the final blow was dealt by Anu and Tathamet.
I don't know.. Covetus Shen seemed to have a sense of humour and talks a lot... Malthael seems almost the complete opposite. I don't think he is a good enough actor.
I think that him being the Trickster God Zei will be the case for Shen: http://www.diablowiki.net/The_Legend_of_Zei_the_Trickster
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Blizzard doing an unpredictable plot twist... its a stretch for them. They are not exactly the writers for game of thrones...
All in the Forger's wake is left bereft and fallow-Excerpt from the Litany of Residuum;
As Translated by He Who Brings Order
So here's an idea. Maybe Malthael is trying to SAVE humanity/Nephilim. The Eternal Conflict seems to be in its end stages. The Prime and Lesser Evils are destroyed, or at least contained, the demonic forces in Sanctuary have been routed and destroyed, and the Burning Hells are ripe for a final invasion by Heaven's forces (And hey, what do you know? We'll be going to the Pandemonium Fortress, whcih is Heaven's deepest bastion in the Hells,a nd the jumping-off point for their previous incursions into the Hells.).
So perhaps Malthael forsees the angels and the remaining demons destroying themselves in one last enormous war, one that will rage across not only the Heavens and hells, but across Sanctuary, as the prophecy of the End Times fortells. Knowing this, he's decided that the forces of Heaven and Hell are a lost cause. They're going to play out their pearts according to their natures to the bitter end, and if that means bringing Creation down in ruins around them, so be it. But if Malthael can harvest the souls of Humanity, he can shelter them from the End Times and restore them, allow them to rebuild amidst the rubble of Creation after the last angel and the last demon destory each other.
Edit: It occurs to that this also provides an excellent reasoning for Malthael letting Tyrael live in the video. Obviously he recognized Tyrael; they'd fought side by side for eons. But angels can assume the guise of mortals, as the Prophet did when he trained Eirena and her sisters. But the moment he began to take Tyrael's soul, he realized that Tyrael was human. Angels and demons in Diablo seem to lack free will: they must act according to their natures, whether for good or evil. But here was another way. A way for angels,a nd perhaps even demons, to shed those limitations and become free. Free to choose not to destroy wach other. If nothing else, it would be worth considering and observing. And meanwhile, Mathael can go on about his original plan in case Tyrael is a fluke.