I'd like to start off by saying that Blizzard is doing a quality job with the storyline in D3 and that in no way do I think that I could do a better job. What I would like to do is point out a couple things that I think aren't as fluid as I'm used to and hoping to see if people agree or can point out how I can see things better.
Generally speaking, Blizzard has put out some fantastic story lines. Warcraft 1&2, Starcraft and Diablo 1&2 are perfect examples of this. Warcraft 3 had some bits that I wasn’t too sure about because it left me with questions yet still epic. Usually, a good storyline is one that has closure, one that I can relate to and is plausible in the setting.
When it comes to D3, or at least the beta, there are a couple things I don’t find plausible. This worries me because in the first 1/3 of the beta there are already issues.
Firstly is Haedrig who is tasked with killing his friends and his wife because they’re infected but can’t bring himself to do it. I can relate to this. The hero then tells him “It must be done!” And that seems to be all the convincing Haedrig needs go beat his wife to death. I don’t find this plausible. Obviously Haedrig is having some serious issues and these issues won’t be resolved by some stranger saying “your feelings are irrelevant, go kill them anyways”. Also, the moment you enter the area with the zombies, Haedrig will go about bashing skulls independent of the hero like he had no qualms to begin with thereby contradicting his previous actions.
Secondly is the final showdown with the skeleton king. The context of D3 is that a physical beat-on-each-other-with-weapons-and-spells is how the player interacts with monsters. So when the skeleton king says “you’ll never defeat me”, I interpret this as a statement of bravado prompting an immediate act of violence. This would flow perfectly within the context of an Action RPG. Instead, he retreats. Also, why do they need to find the crown to defeat him? Does the Skeleton King know this and that’s why he’s running? Why does the hero assume that the skeleton king is stopping him/her from finding the fallen star? How does the hero, who is new to Tritram, know so much about the layout of the cathedral to know s/he can’t bypass the skeleton king?
When you’re reading this, please note that I’m not looking for answers to these questions. What I’m looking for is a plot that prevents these questions from popping up. If you have a suggestion for a plot that doesn’t generate these questions please let me know. Also, if you do not have a problem with the plot because it doesn’t generate these questions for you, please feel free to explain.
Well, as in many games with novels tied to them diablo games series spwaned the novels no the other way around
In this particuar case you cant see such fluid/transparent flow of events to macht each other is just a blizzard thing, they just dont do it, most of it is there to fill the game, with minor influence in the upcoming end of things only mayor quest will do perform such impact in the game and most of those will do have coorelation with the lore that you could find in other sources
Somethings will not look plausible as you said, but remember in what "Universe" does this things happend you have to put things in perspective and even so things still will not look clear but thas how this works so accept that.
I think this is almost where story and gameplay have to be merged or forgotten a little, in order to have a working game.
For your first example, you could explain it that deep inside he actually wants to kill his family. Deep down, he knows he needs to do this, to end their suffering but it's his family he has to kill! It's not a simple "Oh, they're zombies, where's my axe?" question, it's pretty deep. But considering his entire family has become lost, with no way to seek much closure about their position other than death, almost any excuse or co--ercision into what he truely wants, is going to push him down that path. He just needs a little push down the "correct" path and he kills them.
Now, if this happened during a cut-scene, you'd probably see his sadness, anger and depression at this point. Sadly, it's in game and out comes his axe and he's chopping off zombie heads. Sometimes the gameplay, has to over-ride the story, else at every single tangent you'd see in game characters or even your own breaking down with emotional stress.
As for the skeleton king, i've got no idea for the question regarding the crown. I've been trying to keep myself spoiler free, but i'm sure there's an answer later on in that act (or at least i'd hope so). As for pressing deeper into the Cathedral, it's another gameplay over story argument. Would it be cool if you could search for a secret passage, advoiding the boss and then triggering new events to occur in the game? Of course it would be, but how far would you take this? Would ever boss skipped, would every monster slain/left alive twist and shape the story? It could, but that's a hell of alot of extra programming that would probably leave with a very fractured and un-cohesive story.
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"Pull 'em in, den smash 'em up gud!" - Grimjaw, Barbarian Poet
Kariostkt,
If I understand correctly what you're saying, it is that Blizzard is making games not books therefore it's not their priority to make the best plotlines in their games. This makes sense to me. What I'm wondering is how come Diablo 1&2, Warcraft 1-3 and starcraft have such great plot lines whereas Blizzard's later games seem to have lost that aspect?
I also agree that it's hard to say what is plausible and unplausible is hard to define in a universe where magic exists. That being said, even the supernatural aspects to fantasy tend to abide by certain rules. Take for instance the Game of Thrones series. Despite being in a fantasy world, the fantastic apsects, such a dragons, wights and the "others" act in a fantastic way while still abiding by certain consistancies.
Zaxlor,
Thanks for your reply. I found it very informative. When it comes to Haedrig, your reasoning makes a lot of sense. Once again, should we expect programmers to spend an extra few months and thousands of dollars on a cutscene just to make the story more fluid or would I rather just a few words of dialogue and move quickly on to bashing monsters? Probably the latter. That being said, what if when Haedrig faces his wife's zombie, he says "I... I just can't do it" and runs to the corner in a fetal position?
As for bypassing the skeleton king, what I meant to say was that the hero knows a lot about an area which is supposed to be new to him. Instead of the hero recognizing that the Skeleton king blocks his path, what if Cain informed him of this fact. I think that would make more sense because cain spent a few days down there. What do you think?
In essence, I guess I'm wondering if there wouldn't be a cheap and easy way to make a more fluid plot using the tools and game features already available to blizzard?
Both of your ideas are pretty good actually. It does annoy me when characters in games say one thing, but then do another. Seeing him cowering in a corner, or imploring the player to do the killing would make alot more sense, but it's an extra step that isn't really needed, since you can just fill in the blanks in your head.
Almost like the Skeleton King dilema. Cain telling you "This is the only route Hero, we can only go deeper into the crypts from here. There is no turning back!" would help, but you've already got a quest telling you to slay him anyways. Hopefully, there isn't alot of this in game. Another thing that annoys me, is constant reference to the threat at hand, or what's going on. The latest Legend of Zelda game did this with Skyward Sword, where you were constantly told what was going on. You'd watch a cut-scene of a door opening, after hitting a switch that you KNEW would open the door...to then have to read text telling you the door was open.
The other thing to remember, is how much more the devs know about the game and story than us. It's incredibly hard to re-call all the details of something when you're so wound up in the development and creating of it. You know what's going on and happening, so you don't feel the need to explain yourself at all times. It happens, but hopefully it won't happen very often during the 4 acts.
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"Pull 'em in, den smash 'em up gud!" - Grimjaw, Barbarian Poet
Well if the hero knows so much it's because they didn't just become powerful yesterday. It's been some 20 odd years since the worldstone on sanctuary was shattered, they have to be reawakening their powers and growing as individuals and in knowledge prior to their visit to tristram. It's not like they were born right then with a clean slate.
As for Haedrig, if he just quickly dispatched of his loved ones instead of initially displaying some hesitation, I guess we'd be all peachy Maybe the trauma from the situation causes haedrig to snap and go all in. I mean if you can justify killing your most loved ones, then why not kill anything that is remotely evil at all, and, isn't it your responsibility at that point to justify your decision. Maybe he knew what he had to do but was just reluctant and needed someone of respectable nature to tell him it's ok so that even if he were to think it were wrong in the future, he could always blame the one who "forced" him to kill.
This is way out of my element though. As for the skeleton king. Crownzies.
I definitely agree with your point on the Haedrig thing, it is rather unbelievable that in two seconds he doesa 180 and goes in and murders everyone. Obviously this is a gameplay thing, since the focus is on people not having to stand around and listed to quest dialogues all that muchin D3, but I agree that it could have been handled better. Your suggestion is a good one.
Almost like the Skeleton King dilema. Cain telling you "This is the only route Hero, we can only go deeper into the crypts from here. There is no turning back!" would help, but you've already got a quest telling you to slay him anyways. Hopefully, there isn't alot of this in game.
But the point isn't so much to inform us, it's to weave us into the world and prevent us from remembering that there's a UI overlay telling us with divine power what our purpose is.
Though to be honest I hadn't really reflected on the crown thing until I read it here. I guess that goes to show you how ingrained the "fetch arbitrary item to proceed further"-mentality is in a gamer's head
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Wow, I can't believe I attracted the attention of two moderators. I'm flattered.
I had a couple other thoughts on this recently. Having only played D2 (but seen D1 on multiple occasions), I became familiar with the layout for tristram. Is it me or does D3's Tristram not really resemble prior layouts? I know there are similar locations like the blacksmith and Adria's house but I'm not sure if they're even in the same spots they used to be in. Also, what would really help me get a better feel for it would to actually get my hands on the beta. That way I would know for sure.
Also, one of the surprising elements that made Starcraft 1 and D2's stories so appealing was that they refered to things that the player had no idea about. For intance, SC1 spoke about the Xel'Naga like we all knew what they were talking about and D2 talked about the lesser and greater Evil's the same way. Normally, I would think I would have a problem with this because I can't relate to what the character's are refering to. However, it seemed this element made the SC1 and D2 universe much more immersive: It gave impression there was a dynamic world to discover. Phrozen, I've heard you on podcasts and I know you're a lore expert so I'm wondering what your thoughts are on this and also why/if this element does not seem to be in D3?
I had a couple other thoughts on this recently. Having only played D2 (but seen D1 on multiple occasions), I became familiar with the layout for tristram. Is it me or does D3's Tristram not really resemble prior layouts? I know there are similar locations like the blacksmith and Adria's house but I'm not sure if they're even in the same spots they used to be in. Also, what would really help me get a better feel for it would to actually get my hands on the beta. That way I would know for sure.
You're right, they're not the same at all. To be honest I think it's at least partly an aesthetic decision: the original layout from D1 is very spacious and would probably look rather weird if it was out into the new D3 Sanctuary alongside all the other towns.
For intance, SC1 spoke about the Xel'Naga like we all knew what they were talking about and D2 talked about the lesser and greater Evil's the same way. Normally, I would think I would have a problem with this because I can't relate to what the character's are refering to. However, it seemed this element made the SC1 and D2 universe much more immersive: It gave impression there was a dynamic world to discover. Phrozen, I've heard you on podcasts and I know you're a lore expert so I'm wondering what your thoughts are on this and also why/if this element does not seem to be in D3?
I don't think one should mistake ignorance on the player's behalf with immersion. D2 contains just as much, or rather just as little, as it did when it was released. D3 by comparison is by almost any metric a much more developed and fully-fledged world.
What I think you really mean is that SC1 and D2 introduced new story concepts which you were unfamiliar with, while D3 seems to just expand on exactly what you learned in D2. And that is certainly true so far, but any new developments that stray from what we know from D2 would be considered spoilers and would be information that Blizzard would not give out to us.
Let me ask you, how many of the books/datamined spoilers have you looked over?
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Green skins eh? I'll keep that in mind haha. Still, your avatar looks pretty epic.
I'm glad to hear that there are still some immersive story that has been found in D3, or at least in the beta. Phrozen, you also raise a couple good points. First, that earlier games helped set up the universe so there was much more of the mystery aspect I spoke about earlier. Now that D3 is out and that it's a much bigger game, they can really flesh out the story. In essence, the style of the story has to be different from one game to the next. Second, it is true that there really isn't much to go on because of how much Blizz is trying to keep hidden. I am also trying to keep as much hidden as possible so I have not really sought out too much of the datamined spoilers. I also have not read the books but it is on my to do list. That being said, I am up to date on the lore from the wiki site and from ForceStrategy Gaming Diablo Cast episodes where you speak about the lore in the books. Again, I can't wait for release/beta so I can spend hours going over the lore. That will be my favourite part.
Second, it is true that there really isn't much to go on because of how much Blizz is trying to keep hidden. I am also trying to keep as much hidden as possible so I have not really sought out too much of the datamined spoilers. I also have not read the books but it is on my to do list. That being said, I am up to date on the lore from the wiki site and from ForceStrategy Gaming Diablo Cast episodes where you speak about the lore in the books.
Well then how can you know there won't be any "Xel'Naga" mentioned in D3?
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Haha, that's a good point. I mean, the idea of a meteor starting a demonic invasion is so Warcraft 3. Who knows, maybe the Nephalem become the Xel'Naga. Which reminds me, does it seem to you like there is less and less original story content to blizz games? I mean, if they have an idea from the warcraft universe that would work in the starcraft/Diablo universe, why not use it? I can understand that. But is there a point when it becomes too much? Personally, if I said "the meteor signals the demonic invasion and afterwards people start having trouble with the undead" I could be talking about D3 or War3. Likewise, the similiarities between the zerg and the Warcraft 3 Undead in the story line are super similar. The undead were used by the Demons to destroy any opposition just like the zerg were used by (what we think is) the Xel'Naga. These things, although, interesting plot lines just feel too "copy-paste" for me. What do you think?
"The hero then tells him “It must be done!” And that seems to be all the convincing Haedrig needs go beat his wife to death" AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA the way you phrased that was hilarious, I laughed so hard. That being said I felt the same way during that part, it really doesn't paint a very realistic emotional setting. One of the only weak points I noticed though.
To me, it all kind of made sense. I'm a writer by profession, and while it's a bit different writing books, I can understand the quick change in behavior. It was a necessity, as others have mentioned they couldn't go into a long drawn out conversation about it, and even when you talk to him about it after, he doesn't want to give up much more than he has, he's obviously upset, and unhappy about what happened, but knew it must be done. Personally I felt like I was the one that killed his wife, while he seemed to fight kind of half heartedly, not really going full force, but that could be a jaded view from playing that part of the beta so many times.
I had never thought of the crown, and why it would be needed to kill him. It's certainly an interesting question. And I can see us getting more detail. But it still makes sense. Traditionally ghosts are things that are holding onto this world, and items of personal value often can be a center for their energies. When you encoutner him before, he's in a more corpreal state, but when you put the crown on his head, he takes a physical form, instead of summoning other demons to do his bidding, I mean he could have struck down Cain all by himself but he chooses to use summons instead. So I think the crown is what was needed to defeat not only his body, but the part of his soul that was tethered to the world. But that's just logic attached to speculation, and I'm hoping that it's revealed more in the full game.
I found it very odd that the first real mini boss would say something like "You shall never defeat me." It seemed really cheesy, and not placed well. I mean think about it, we're obviously going to defeat him, he's the first damn boss. If Diablo, or one of the lesser demon lords said that, it's a little bit more believable that we could have a tough time defeating him, but my first thought when I heard that was, "Yeah right." And then smashed his face in (or rather shot him with darts til he died.)
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I had never thought of the crown, and why it would be needed to kill him. It's certainly an interesting question. And I can see us getting more detail. But it still makes sense. Traditionally ghosts are things that are holding onto this world, and items of personal value often can be a center for their energies. When you encoutner him before, he's in a more corpreal state, but when you put the crown on his head, he takes a physical form, instead of summoning other demons to do his bidding, I mean he could have struck down Cain all by himself but he chooses to use summons instead. So I think the crown is what was needed to defeat not only his body, but the part of his soul that was tethered to the world. But that's just logic attached to speculation, and I'm hoping that it's revealed more in the full game.
I'm not so certain we'll get an explanation about it, but something along those lines seems to be the most reasonable explanation at least.
I found it very odd that the first real mini boss would say something like "You shall never defeat me." It seemed really cheesy, and not placed well. I mean think about it, we're obviously going to defeat him, he's the first damn boss.
That to me doesn't seem all that unreasonable. I mean, if this had not been a story and he's revived again, really pissed off, and faces off some (as far as he can tell) random adventurer, I'd be pretty cocky too.
Something I find much more strange is the first time you encounter him, when he says "The power of the fallen star awakened me". How does he know it was a fallen star? Or a more prudent question, why does he assume like all the townsfolk, who actually was something fall, that it's a star? He was dead and gone, buried underground, and he only just woke up after the thing crashed. He's talked to no one, and all he knows is that there's a big blue hole in the ground. And even if he suspected that, why say "the power of the fallen star?" As far as we know it's definitely not a star, and if anyone else knows this it ought to be Leoric. It seems like he's only saying it so the player gets a quick explanation for why he's not dead anymore.
Btw, kickass name Damerflinn. I always liked Flinn best of the Asha'man
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In the end it is just a game, no need to make psychological profiles of any NPC.
No disrespect intended but I have the opposite opinion. Character development makes the story (Damerflinn, you're the author so feel free to correct me). I guess, we don't necessarily need a psychoanalist's perspective into the minds of the characters to enjoy the story. However, a basic ability to relate to why the characters are making their choices and their behaviours changing over time helps me understand the characters and, in the process, the story as well. Axtroz, what do you think?
Phrozen and Damerflinn, you also spurred another thought in my mind about the behaviour of the undead. It's a good point about the Skeleton King knowing about why he was woken up. I never thought of that. I guess some things which are fluid to me are not fluid to others. But more to the point: I like the idea of traditional undead psyche. The undead tend to repeat past experiences and attach themselves to physical objects which they can no longer hold causing them to remain in our world. The idea of the crown being the object of the S.K.'s desire and what is needed to make him corporeal/defeatable does make sense. Adding the line in Cain's monologue "we need the crown to make him corporeal so he can be defeated" doesn't seem to be too hard and would have added to the fluidity. Also, from my understanding of the S.K., he was such a righteous person that he became mostly evil yet never fully lost control to Diablo, yet now he's all evil. One of the aspects of the undead is that they incorperate the living into their undead narrative. As an example, the ghost of a king who was killed by his trusted soldiers may mistake any random passerby as somebody attempting to assasinate him. In my opinion, if we saw the S.K. confuse the D3 hero as a betrayer, it would fit better with the theme of the undead and the fluidity of the S.K.'s story.
NaginnahNibor - On the crown you might have hit on it there. With him needing the crown to defeat a boss. A part of the SKs essence might have been traped in the crown upon death or after wearing it for some many years. (A D&D plot that the players had to kill a Deathknight but they had to find the slain remains of his paladin mount to trigger his weakness.)
On the Haedrig subject it could be like what people see on TV / movies. An example was in an eposide of Walking Dead with Sophie walking out of the barn and Rick had to shot her, but you could tell it hurt him to do so. Just something that had to be done but what do you do. Let them "live" and destory everything else that means something to you?
Great things to read so far all. I enjoy what I have seen on this topic.
If you are in the feudal age, what things do you know of that can possibly fall from the sky and smash a decent hole into a church?
In the end it is just a game, no need to make psychological profiles of any NPC.
When you watch a movie or read a book you do not feel part of the story as it happens? I do and thats why I enjoy reading so much. Several games included in this.
what i would think of the crown, is that you use it to bring him to the physical world where you can beat him the right way. If you recall when he's following cain he appears in ghost from, still able to control the skele minions, an unbeatable form. And the reason you have to beat him first may be that if you dont you'll have to handle his minions all the way down to the fallen star, making it way too hard, realistic wise.
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On the Haedrig subject it could be like what people see on TV / movies. An example was in an eposide of Walking Dead with Sophie walking out of the barn and Rick had to shot her, but you could tell it hurt him to do so. Just something that had to be done but what do you do. Let them "live" and destory everything else that means something to you?
Most epic Walking Dead scene ever! I agree! When I compare the scene with Rick Grimes to the one with Haedrig Eamon I have to ask myself why I enjoyed Rick's scene but was jilted by Haedrig's. I think one of the differences is that Rick never said "I can't do it" wheras Haedrig did. I think they both recognized that it had to be done. Haedrig says something along the lines of "not now... I have to put down the people in the cellar but how can I do it?" It just seems like a major jump from when he says "I can't do it" yet seconds later he's doing it. In essence, I just think it could have been handled better.
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Generally speaking, Blizzard has put out some fantastic story lines. Warcraft 1&2, Starcraft and Diablo 1&2 are perfect examples of this. Warcraft 3 had some bits that I wasn’t too sure about because it left me with questions yet still epic. Usually, a good storyline is one that has closure, one that I can relate to and is plausible in the setting.
When it comes to D3, or at least the beta, there are a couple things I don’t find plausible. This worries me because in the first 1/3 of the beta there are already issues.
Firstly is Haedrig who is tasked with killing his friends and his wife because they’re infected but can’t bring himself to do it. I can relate to this. The hero then tells him “It must be done!” And that seems to be all the convincing Haedrig needs go beat his wife to death. I don’t find this plausible. Obviously Haedrig is having some serious issues and these issues won’t be resolved by some stranger saying “your feelings are irrelevant, go kill them anyways”. Also, the moment you enter the area with the zombies, Haedrig will go about bashing skulls independent of the hero like he had no qualms to begin with thereby contradicting his previous actions.
Secondly is the final showdown with the skeleton king. The context of D3 is that a physical beat-on-each-other-with-weapons-and-spells is how the player interacts with monsters. So when the skeleton king says “you’ll never defeat me”, I interpret this as a statement of bravado prompting an immediate act of violence. This would flow perfectly within the context of an Action RPG. Instead, he retreats. Also, why do they need to find the crown to defeat him? Does the Skeleton King know this and that’s why he’s running? Why does the hero assume that the skeleton king is stopping him/her from finding the fallen star? How does the hero, who is new to Tritram, know so much about the layout of the cathedral to know s/he can’t bypass the skeleton king?
When you’re reading this, please note that I’m not looking for answers to these questions. What I’m looking for is a plot that prevents these questions from popping up. If you have a suggestion for a plot that doesn’t generate these questions please let me know. Also, if you do not have a problem with the plot because it doesn’t generate these questions for you, please feel free to explain.
In this particuar case you cant see such fluid/transparent flow of events to macht each other is just a blizzard thing, they just dont do it, most of it is there to fill the game, with minor influence in the upcoming end of things only mayor quest will do perform such impact in the game and most of those will do have coorelation with the lore that you could find in other sources
Somethings will not look plausible as you said, but remember in what "Universe" does this things happend you have to put things in perspective and even so things still will not look clear but thas how this works so accept that.
For your first example, you could explain it that deep inside he actually wants to kill his family. Deep down, he knows he needs to do this, to end their suffering but it's his family he has to kill! It's not a simple "Oh, they're zombies, where's my axe?" question, it's pretty deep. But considering his entire family has become lost, with no way to seek much closure about their position other than death, almost any excuse or co--ercision into what he truely wants, is going to push him down that path. He just needs a little push down the "correct" path and he kills them.
Now, if this happened during a cut-scene, you'd probably see his sadness, anger and depression at this point. Sadly, it's in game and out comes his axe and he's chopping off zombie heads. Sometimes the gameplay, has to over-ride the story, else at every single tangent you'd see in game characters or even your own breaking down with emotional stress.
As for the skeleton king, i've got no idea for the question regarding the crown. I've been trying to keep myself spoiler free, but i'm sure there's an answer later on in that act (or at least i'd hope so). As for pressing deeper into the Cathedral, it's another gameplay over story argument. Would it be cool if you could search for a secret passage, advoiding the boss and then triggering new events to occur in the game? Of course it would be, but how far would you take this? Would ever boss skipped, would every monster slain/left alive twist and shape the story? It could, but that's a hell of alot of extra programming that would probably leave with a very fractured and un-cohesive story.
"Pull 'em in, den smash 'em up gud!" - Grimjaw, Barbarian Poet
If I understand correctly what you're saying, it is that Blizzard is making games not books therefore it's not their priority to make the best plotlines in their games. This makes sense to me. What I'm wondering is how come Diablo 1&2, Warcraft 1-3 and starcraft have such great plot lines whereas Blizzard's later games seem to have lost that aspect?
I also agree that it's hard to say what is plausible and unplausible is hard to define in a universe where magic exists. That being said, even the supernatural aspects to fantasy tend to abide by certain rules. Take for instance the Game of Thrones series. Despite being in a fantasy world, the fantastic apsects, such a dragons, wights and the "others" act in a fantastic way while still abiding by certain consistancies.
Zaxlor,
Thanks for your reply. I found it very informative. When it comes to Haedrig, your reasoning makes a lot of sense. Once again, should we expect programmers to spend an extra few months and thousands of dollars on a cutscene just to make the story more fluid or would I rather just a few words of dialogue and move quickly on to bashing monsters? Probably the latter. That being said, what if when Haedrig faces his wife's zombie, he says "I... I just can't do it" and runs to the corner in a fetal position?
As for bypassing the skeleton king, what I meant to say was that the hero knows a lot about an area which is supposed to be new to him. Instead of the hero recognizing that the Skeleton king blocks his path, what if Cain informed him of this fact. I think that would make more sense because cain spent a few days down there. What do you think?
In essence, I guess I'm wondering if there wouldn't be a cheap and easy way to make a more fluid plot using the tools and game features already available to blizzard?
Almost like the Skeleton King dilema. Cain telling you "This is the only route Hero, we can only go deeper into the crypts from here. There is no turning back!" would help, but you've already got a quest telling you to slay him anyways. Hopefully, there isn't alot of this in game. Another thing that annoys me, is constant reference to the threat at hand, or what's going on. The latest Legend of Zelda game did this with Skyward Sword, where you were constantly told what was going on. You'd watch a cut-scene of a door opening, after hitting a switch that you KNEW would open the door...to then have to read text telling you the door was open.
The other thing to remember, is how much more the devs know about the game and story than us. It's incredibly hard to re-call all the details of something when you're so wound up in the development and creating of it. You know what's going on and happening, so you don't feel the need to explain yourself at all times. It happens, but hopefully it won't happen very often during the 4 acts.
"Pull 'em in, den smash 'em up gud!" - Grimjaw, Barbarian Poet
As for Haedrig, if he just quickly dispatched of his loved ones instead of initially displaying some hesitation, I guess we'd be all peachy
This is way out of my element though. As for the skeleton king. Crownzies.
But the point isn't so much to inform us, it's to weave us into the world and prevent us from remembering that there's a UI overlay telling us with divine power what our purpose is.
Though to be honest I hadn't really reflected on the crown thing until I read it here. I guess that goes to show you how ingrained the "fetch arbitrary item to proceed further"-mentality is in a gamer's head
I had a couple other thoughts on this recently. Having only played D2 (but seen D1 on multiple occasions), I became familiar with the layout for tristram. Is it me or does D3's Tristram not really resemble prior layouts? I know there are similar locations like the blacksmith and Adria's house but I'm not sure if they're even in the same spots they used to be in. Also, what would really help me get a better feel for it would to actually get my hands on the beta. That way I would know for sure.
Also, one of the surprising elements that made Starcraft 1 and D2's stories so appealing was that they refered to things that the player had no idea about. For intance, SC1 spoke about the Xel'Naga like we all knew what they were talking about and D2 talked about the lesser and greater Evil's the same way. Normally, I would think I would have a problem with this because I can't relate to what the character's are refering to. However, it seemed this element made the SC1 and D2 universe much more immersive: It gave impression there was a dynamic world to discover. Phrozen, I've heard you on podcasts and I know you're a lore expert so I'm wondering what your thoughts are on this and also why/if this element does not seem to be in D3?
You're right, they're not the same at all. To be honest I think it's at least partly an aesthetic decision: the original layout from D1 is very spacious and would probably look rather weird if it was out into the new D3 Sanctuary alongside all the other towns.
I don't think one should mistake ignorance on the player's behalf with immersion. D2 contains just as much, or rather just as little, as it did when it was released. D3 by comparison is by almost any metric a much more developed and fully-fledged world.
What I think you really mean is that SC1 and D2 introduced new story concepts which you were unfamiliar with, while D3 seems to just expand on exactly what you learned in D2. And that is certainly true so far, but any new developments that stray from what we know from D2 would be considered spoilers and would be information that Blizzard would not give out to us.
Let me ask you, how many of the books/datamined spoilers have you looked over?
I'm glad to hear that there are still some immersive story that has been found in D3, or at least in the beta. Phrozen, you also raise a couple good points. First, that earlier games helped set up the universe so there was much more of the mystery aspect I spoke about earlier. Now that D3 is out and that it's a much bigger game, they can really flesh out the story. In essence, the style of the story has to be different from one game to the next.
Second, it is true that there really isn't much to go on because of how much Blizz is trying to keep hidden. I am also trying to keep as much hidden as possible so I have not really sought out too much of the datamined spoilers. I also have not read the books but it is on my to do list. That being said, I am up to date on the lore from the wiki site and from ForceStrategy Gaming Diablo Cast episodes where you speak about the lore in the books. Again, I can't wait for release/beta so I can spend hours going over the lore. That will be my favourite part.
I had never thought of the crown, and why it would be needed to kill him. It's certainly an interesting question. And I can see us getting more detail. But it still makes sense. Traditionally ghosts are things that are holding onto this world, and items of personal value often can be a center for their energies. When you encoutner him before, he's in a more corpreal state, but when you put the crown on his head, he takes a physical form, instead of summoning other demons to do his bidding, I mean he could have struck down Cain all by himself but he chooses to use summons instead. So I think the crown is what was needed to defeat not only his body, but the part of his soul that was tethered to the world. But that's just logic attached to speculation, and I'm hoping that it's revealed more in the full game.
I found it very odd that the first real mini boss would say something like "You shall never defeat me." It seemed really cheesy, and not placed well. I mean think about it, we're obviously going to defeat him, he's the first damn boss. If Diablo, or one of the lesser demon lords said that, it's a little bit more believable that we could have a tough time defeating him, but my first thought when I heard that was, "Yeah right." And then smashed his face in (or rather shot him with darts til he died.)
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That to me doesn't seem all that unreasonable. I mean, if this had not been a story and he's revived again, really pissed off, and faces off some (as far as he can tell) random adventurer, I'd be pretty cocky too.
Something I find much more strange is the first time you encounter him, when he says "The power of the fallen star awakened me". How does he know it was a fallen star? Or a more prudent question, why does he assume like all the townsfolk, who actually was something fall, that it's a star? He was dead and gone, buried underground, and he only just woke up after the thing crashed. He's talked to no one, and all he knows is that there's a big blue hole in the ground. And even if he suspected that, why say "the power of the fallen star?" As far as we know it's definitely not a star, and if anyone else knows this it ought to be Leoric. It seems like he's only saying it so the player gets a quick explanation for why he's not dead anymore.
Btw, kickass name Damerflinn. I always liked Flinn best of the Asha'man
No disrespect intended but I have the opposite opinion. Character development makes the story (Damerflinn, you're the author so feel free to correct me). I guess, we don't necessarily need a psychoanalist's perspective into the minds of the characters to enjoy the story. However, a basic ability to relate to why the characters are making their choices and their behaviours changing over time helps me understand the characters and, in the process, the story as well. Axtroz, what do you think?
Phrozen and Damerflinn, you also spurred another thought in my mind about the behaviour of the undead. It's a good point about the Skeleton King knowing about why he was woken up. I never thought of that. I guess some things which are fluid to me are not fluid to others. But more to the point: I like the idea of traditional undead psyche. The undead tend to repeat past experiences and attach themselves to physical objects which they can no longer hold causing them to remain in our world. The idea of the crown being the object of the S.K.'s desire and what is needed to make him corporeal/defeatable does make sense. Adding the line in Cain's monologue "we need the crown to make him corporeal so he can be defeated" doesn't seem to be too hard and would have added to the fluidity. Also, from my understanding of the S.K., he was such a righteous person that he became mostly evil yet never fully lost control to Diablo, yet now he's all evil. One of the aspects of the undead is that they incorperate the living into their undead narrative. As an example, the ghost of a king who was killed by his trusted soldiers may mistake any random passerby as somebody attempting to assasinate him. In my opinion, if we saw the S.K. confuse the D3 hero as a betrayer, it would fit better with the theme of the undead and the fluidity of the S.K.'s story.
On the Haedrig subject it could be like what people see on TV / movies. An example was in an eposide of Walking Dead with Sophie walking out of the barn and Rick had to shot her, but you could tell it hurt him to do so. Just something that had to be done but what do you do. Let them "live" and destory everything else that means something to you?
Great things to read so far all. I enjoy what I have seen on this topic.
When you watch a movie or read a book you do not feel part of the story as it happens? I do and thats why I enjoy reading so much. Several games included in this.
-Kevin Martens
Most epic Walking Dead scene ever! I agree! When I compare the scene with Rick Grimes to the one with Haedrig Eamon I have to ask myself why I enjoyed Rick's scene but was jilted by Haedrig's. I think one of the differences is that Rick never said "I can't do it" wheras Haedrig did. I think they both recognized that it had to be done. Haedrig says something along the lines of "not now... I have to put down the people in the cellar but how can I do it?" It just seems like a major jump from when he says "I can't do it" yet seconds later he's doing it. In essence, I just think it could have been handled better.