Number crunching? I can't see that is has to crit first have been taking into account, this is just one of several short comings of your PE superiority theory falling short. Not to mention your own crude calculations are wrong by your own flawed logic:
[(4500/10)*1.1 + (3000*1.58)*0.1]/(3000*1.58) = 20.4% should be [(4500/10)*1.1 + (3000*1.58)*1.1]/(3000*1.58) = 22.4%
That way of comparing max DOT and increase is also besides the point the point is both the burst dmg and who obtains maximum DOT first and then the seize of the DOT, the calculations prove nothing.
The logic is pretty straight forward, firebirds 6 piece bonus gives you double up on all fire dmg, until reaching perma burn. Physical DOT is subpar as fire wiz compared to more fire dmg, as it scales better for a fire wiz with decent 100% fire dmg. The calculation would look very different from the proposed if it should illustrate it, as you have to show the curve of the dmg given and time to perma burn. Instead of these miscalculated max DOT percentage nonsense.
First of all, that quote was from the official forum and it wasn't calculated by Boozor. If you have an issue with it, go to the official forum and talk to the guy who used those numbers in the first place. It's more or less napkin math.
Second of all, this is a conversation regarding how effective PE is in a T6 setting where you more often than not one-shot elite packs with a single spell. Perma-DoT from the 6-piece bonus is rarely a factor other than against the RG. It's meant to compare other oft-used gems, especially in high level GRs, and discuss whether or not such oft-used gems can really shine at all in a speed run. Gems like Bane of the Trapped have virtually no chance to really shine because CC is an afterthought in speed runs.
Short story is, PE is worth using. It's nice that you can run through enemies with Frozen Storm and they drop dead just from the PE DoT.
Number crunching? I can't see that is has to crit first have been taking into account, this is just one of several short comings of your PE superiority theory falling short. Not to mention your own crude calculations are wrong by your own flawed logic:
[(4500/10)*1.1 + (3000*1.58)*0.1]/(3000*1.58) = 20.4% should be [(4500/10)*1.1 + (3000*1.58)*1.1]/(3000*1.58) = 22.4%
That way of comparing max DOT and increase is also besides the point the point is both the burst dmg and who obtains maximum DOT first and then the seize of the DOT, the calculations prove nothing.
The logic is pretty straight forward, firebirds 6 piece bonus gives you double up on all fire dmg, until reaching perma burn. Physical DOT is subpar as fire wiz compared to more fire dmg, as it scales better for a fire wiz with decent 100% fire dmg. The calculation would look very different from the proposed if it should illustrate it, as you have to show the curve of the dmg given and time to perma burn. Instead of these miscalculated max DOT percentage nonsense.
This is the spreadsheet i used to determine the damage outputs over a 5 second time frame.
You can enter the various gems and compare their outputs and total outputs against each other.
Your underestimating the strength of the PE gem as you did before. Your right in saying that extra fire % will indeed make the fire portion of your output stronger, but the fact is, PE's DOT makes up a significant portion of your overall damage. Damage in T6 never reach perma DOT against trash and rarely against elites, so your "who obtains maximum DOT first" is pointless. So much of your damage is done before perma DOT, and that is why PE's DOT is so strong.
All the while, not needing any effort to trigger it. Blizzard crits countless times over a single cast, "mini ticks" that all crit individually. Frozen storm crits non stop in the same way.
Again, if you've given this gem the light of day, you wouldn't be questioning its effectiveness.
oh btw, I don't have harringtons yet or maximus/furnace so I opted for a triple tal'rasha for those extra meteors.
I do feel like a good rolled regular weapon is better than a medium sunkeeper that doesn't have EE benefits.
Do you think attack speed on weapon should be as low as possible or doesn't it matter that much?
For solo, harrington's is pretty overkill depending on how strong the rest of your gear is you may or may not need it. For a full 4-man carry, harrington will definately help out even the most geared FB wizards.
The meteors from TR bonus don't really give much of a benefit, but the extra DPS does help out a bit, however the effort to have all 4 of them come down mind hinder some other aspects of your build. But definitely still viable.
Don't underestimate SK compared to extra 5% EE bonus, the 30% elite damage does help quite a bit especially if you are not over geared for T6. In general, an SK should out DPS say a Neanderthal with extra 5% EE any day of the week against elites.
Lower attack speed on weapon is not necessary, but you should be clear that the faster weapon does not have any benefit to a slower weapon in terms of damage. It will help with casting animation say, a sword vs a 2H mace, this is the delay between spell casts, but damage output is not represented properly since most likely a sword will be show more sheet DPS then a slow mace for example. but in reality, the mace would do more damage. In general, if two weapon are equal DPS or offer equal sheet DPS, then slower one is more powerful for THIS build.
I think it's best to compare the two items without the gem or have the same gem in it. With these two weapons the attack speeds are the same and the spear is actually stronger then the SK on paper but the elite affix on the SK is where SK advantage will come from .
But let's say the damage difference was 7.9% between the two. The SK would be 22.1% stronger against elites roughly but slightly weaker against trash. This is pretty sizeable advantage against elites which would make the SK more favourable in many situations.
I did compare the twoo without the socket as you can tell by the screenshot ^^ (use shift, if you didn't know)
Thanks for that tip
The SK would be much stronger then the spear against elites as i mentioned, slightly worse against whites, but the SK doesn't have any weapon % damage on it so you could definately use a better one
Another question: I don't have a Furnace, but I have a decent Maximus. I typically run a 1h SK setup for GRs, but, I was wondering if the top end on maximus might be better on trash for single casts of blizzard while running away. Thoughts?
edit: just tried it myself and it isn't worth it... trash at times was faster but all elites substantially slower. Meh.
Another question: I don't have a Furnace, but I have a decent Maximus. I typically run a 1h SK setup for GRs, but, I was wondering if the top end on maximus might be better on trash for single casts of blizzard while running away. Thoughts?
edit: just tried it myself and it isn't worth it... trash at times was faster but all elites substantially slower. Meh.
I was just going to say... for GRs Maximus is viable, but against elites (where most of your time is spent ..especially the RG, the SK will show its worth there).
For T6, either is fine, elites do not have enough HP to be noticeable.
Have you tried Wreath of Lightning at all? Guess I'm not sure which gem would be worth dropping for it, though!
Wreath of lightning does almost no damage ... Its a minor speed boost when active, you might as well take the Boon of the hoarder gem at least you will get gold and the same similar speed boost.
Another question: I don't have a Furnace, but I have a decent Maximus. I typically run a 1h SK setup for GRs, but, I was wondering if the top end on maximus might be better on trash for single casts of blizzard while running away. Thoughts?
edit: just tried it myself and it isn't worth it... trash at times was faster but all elites substantially slower. Meh.
I was just going to say... for GRs Maximus is viable, but against elites (where most of your time is spent ..especially the RG, the SK will show its worth there).
For T6, either is fine, elites do not have enough HP to be noticeable.
Have you tried Wreath of Lightning at all? Guess I'm not sure which gem would be worth dropping for it, though!
Wreath of lightning does almost no damage ... Its a minor speed boost when active, you might as well take the Boon of the hoarder gem at least you will get gold and the same similar speed boost.
Thanks! I've been giving Pain Enhancer a whirl. Pretty nifty... If not for the damage boost on Toxin I might use it in GRs too...
[quote=Mav;/members/167464-mav;/forums/diablo-iii-class-forums/wizard-the-ancient-repositories/97855-guide-firebird-maximum-t6-efficiency?comment=40]Another question: I don't have a Furnace, but I have a decent Maximus. I typically run a 1h SK setup for GRs, but, I was wondering if the top end on maximus might be better on trash for single casts of blizzard while running away. Thoughts?
edit: just tried it myself and it isn't worth it... trash at times was faster but all elites substantially slower. Meh.
I was just going to say... for GRs Maximus is viable, but against elites (where most of your time is spent ..especially the RG, the SK will show its worth there).
For T6, either is fine, elites do not have enough HP to be noticeable.
Have you tried Wreath of Lightning at all? Guess I'm not sure which gem would be worth dropping for it, though!
Wreath of lightning does almost no damage ... Its a minor speed boost when active, you might as well take the Boon of the hoarder gem at least you will get gold and the same similar speed boost.
Thanks! I've been giving Pain Enhancer a whirl. Pretty nifty... If not for the damage boost on Toxin I might use it in GRs too...
Its pretty close PE vs TOX even for GR, but TOX has a longer duration and this helps with herding and also does not need to be reapplied as often as PE so it gets a slight edge for GRs.
Thanks Boozor, I'm looking forward to trying out Firebird; but first, I need some help. I finally got six pieces of Firebird (I never could get a RRoG), but they seem to have really bad rolls. If I switch to them I lose 80,000 damage and 1.1 million toughness on my character sheet. Is it worth switching to them at this point or should I keep going for better rolls? I am currently using an disintegrate build, but I can't really get past T18 GRs or Torment IV solo play.
yes you should switch. Firebird gives you enough damage to do T6, if you combine it with Dominance and kill stuff fast enough you should be fine. And yes, a RRoG is very handy cause it allows for either a Cindercoat, Magefist or some other stuff, so your first thing to do after putting F6 on should be to farm a RRoG.
Thanks Boozor, I'm looking forward to trying out Firebird; but first, I need some help. I finally got six pieces of Firebird (I never could get a RRoG), but they seem to have really bad rolls. If I switch to them I lose 80,000 damage and 1.1 million toughness on my character sheet. Is it worth switching to them at this point or should I keep going for better rolls? I am currently using an disintegrate build, but I can't really get past T18 GRs or Torment IV solo play.
yes you should switch. Firebird gives you enough damage to do T6, if you combine it with Dominance and kill stuff fast enough you should be fine. And yes, a RRoG is very handy cause it allows for either a Cindercoat, Magefist or some other stuff, so your first thing to do after putting F6 on should be to farm a RRoG.
+1 Antyr.
A half decent RORG is very useful and you'll get a lot of uses out of one on almost any build or character so definitely should try to get a serviceable one first.
As for using the firebird set or not, DEFINITELY use the firebird set, the damage from the 6 piece is basically irreplaceable from our skills or other pieces of gear.
Legendary gems are the next biggest damage contributors behind the firebird 6pc damage.
Dont pay too much attention to the display damage, for Firebird, you cannot compare the display damage against another build that doesn't use Firebirds.
Thanks Boozor and Antyr. I went ahead and switched and so far it's been fantastic. I lost a ton of toughness in my Firebird gear but I'm able to kite now and not stand still to spam disintegrate. I can do T6 bounties and lesser rifts with ease though it takes a while to kill anything. I'm working on farming a good RoRG now.
As someone who does not have a lot of time to play, I rely on posts/guides like this one to make sure I am using my play time efficiently. I just wanted to say thank you to Boozer for taking the time to put this together and also to those who posted helpful comments, I really appreciate it. I was running the Woh/hoarder/gold wrap combo and this build blows that one away WRT T6 efficiency. Although, I have a hard time mentally using a 2H weapon (I do not have a furnace, so I run Maximus) over the 1H set-up it really does do a great deal more damage and I do not even have a PE gem leveled and only two slots for gems (using Zei's and Toxin until I can find a fire SOJ that is workable). Now, if Jaetch would just post a lightning Woh Guide I wouldn't have to feel bad about letting it sit in my stash....
As someone who does not have a lot of time to play, I rely on posts/guides like this one to make sure I am using my play time efficiently. I just wanted to say thank you to Boozer for taking the time to put this together and also to those who posted helpful comments, I really appreciate it. I was running the Woh/hoarder/gold wrap combo and this build blows that one away WRT T6 efficiency. Although, I have a hard time mentally using a 2H weapon (I do not have a furnace, so I run Maximus) over the 1H set-up it really does do a great deal more damage and I do not even have a PE gem leveled and only two slots for gems (using Zei's and Toxin until I can find a fire SOJ that is workable). Now, if Jaetch would just post a lightning Woh Guide I wouldn't have to feel bad about letting it sit in my stash....
Very glad it has been helpful for you.
I'm all about using my play time wisely as well and am happy to help others.
Imo Gloves of Worship + Hellfire Amulet (to get Astral Presence) > Cindercoat + any other Amulet
Play for a longer periot of time and you will see 2-6 shrines active all the time when clearing T6 Rifts in around 4 minutes
Perhaps.
Cindercoat is very hard to replace and Astral Presence isn't going to be the answer. Flat regeneration of AP/second is second to spell reduction.
As well don't forget you will be losing 20% fire from the cindercoat, and shrines require RNG. Cool down and Speed shrine will definately be sexy with the GoW, but i'm talking about reliable front damage from start to finish. I did give GoW and illusory boots a mention in the thread as options, but not what i would deem the best.
So factoring in GoW RNG for shrines and the AP requirements of blizzard spamming, its not just not as reliable.
4 mins is VERY average. Sub 3mins is usually the norm if this build is looking to get to the RG and close rift.
Thanks for the discussion, just my opinions and reasonings.
As for swapping bracers, I tend to open up my inventory to swap as soon as I see a shrine. So by the time I get to it, I already have Nemesis equipped. And considering there's no need to swap mid-fight against a T6 elite if you're not running Strongarm, I swap back to Warzechian after I dump my spells and I'm moving away.
It's usually pretty smooth and you don't miss a beat at all.
Right: -30% AP cost > +2,5 AP/s but the additional AP reg is simply enough
4 min is high for sure but even if you need 4 min for a Rift you will see at least 2 Shrines active all the time, and the best Shrine is the 25% Exp Shrine if you play on Exp/h like most people with endgear do
Alternatively you can play with Itemswitch Macros if you like to stress yourself by swapping to Reapers Wraps/Nemesis and back to Warzechian
But note: Its not 100% legit... use it at your own risk. Anyways Blizzard seems to allow Num Locking Skills too and its nothing more than a macro...
BTW: The Official Diablo 3 Mouse by Blizzard is supporting Macros as well XP
I'm going to disagree, its NOT enough. 2.5AP/second isn't close compared to -30% reduction. Even with -30% reduction, its not 100% bullet proof either, so running with just regen isn't even going to be on the same consistency.
I'm going for consistency and reliability, from start of game to end. Yes shrine gloves fully stacked up are GG. But how often, is that going to happen?
+20% fire and -30% reduction is too good to give up. Especially when you consider how much AP you spend in heavy density rifts. Even considering using Conduit with Cindercoat for much better AP management. You will notice as you start clearing content faster, your AP starved a lot. And everytime you miss a cast thats losing efficiency.
Also from what I read, macros to swap items are grounds for termination. I'm not sure if it applies to 1-item though, but either way, its not difficult to swap bracers for a shrine.
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[(4500/10)*1.1 + (3000*1.58)*0.1]/(3000*1.58) = 20.4% should be [(4500/10)*1.1 + (3000*1.58)*1.1]/(3000*1.58) = 22.4%
That way of comparing max DOT and increase is also besides the point the point is both the burst dmg and who obtains maximum DOT first and then the seize of the DOT, the calculations prove nothing.
The logic is pretty straight forward, firebirds 6 piece bonus gives you double up on all fire dmg, until reaching perma burn. Physical DOT is subpar as fire wiz compared to more fire dmg, as it scales better for a fire wiz with decent 100% fire dmg. The calculation would look very different from the proposed if it should illustrate it, as you have to show the curve of the dmg given and time to perma burn. Instead of these miscalculated max DOT percentage nonsense.
Second of all, this is a conversation regarding how effective PE is in a T6 setting where you more often than not one-shot elite packs with a single spell. Perma-DoT from the 6-piece bonus is rarely a factor other than against the RG. It's meant to compare other oft-used gems, especially in high level GRs, and discuss whether or not such oft-used gems can really shine at all in a speed run. Gems like Bane of the Trapped have virtually no chance to really shine because CC is an afterthought in speed runs.
Short story is, PE is worth using. It's nice that you can run through enemies with Frozen Storm and they drop dead just from the PE DoT.
Armory | YouTube | Twitter | Clan Site
As mentioned the above analysis was from another poster on a similar topic.
https://docs.google....ClWE/edit#gid=0
This is the spreadsheet i used to determine the damage outputs over a 5 second time frame.
You can enter the various gems and compare their outputs and total outputs against each other.
Your underestimating the strength of the PE gem as you did before. Your right in saying that extra fire % will indeed make the fire portion of your output stronger, but the fact is, PE's DOT makes up a significant portion of your overall damage. Damage in T6 never reach perma DOT against trash and rarely against elites, so your "who obtains maximum DOT first" is pointless. So much of your damage is done before perma DOT, and that is why PE's DOT is so strong.
All the while, not needing any effort to trigger it. Blizzard crits countless times over a single cast, "mini ticks" that all crit individually. Frozen storm crits non stop in the same way.
Again, if you've given this gem the light of day, you wouldn't be questioning its effectiveness.
The meteors from TR bonus don't really give much of a benefit, but the extra DPS does help out a bit, however the effort to have all 4 of them come down mind hinder some other aspects of your build. But definitely still viable.
Don't underestimate SK compared to extra 5% EE bonus, the 30% elite damage does help quite a bit especially if you are not over geared for T6. In general, an SK should out DPS say a Neanderthal with extra 5% EE any day of the week against elites.
Lower attack speed on weapon is not necessary, but you should be clear that the faster weapon does not have any benefit to a slower weapon in terms of damage. It will help with casting animation say, a sword vs a 2H mace, this is the delay between spell casts, but damage output is not represented properly since most likely a sword will be show more sheet DPS then a slow mace for example. but in reality, the mace would do more damage. In general, if two weapon are equal DPS or offer equal sheet DPS, then slower one is more powerful for THIS build.
Quote from Syldra
Thanks for the fast reply,
I was comparing these twoo - on sheet it would make the grimshaw win but this is incorrect then?
http://s17.postimg.org/deft4p5bj/screenshot_212.jpg
I think it's best to compare the two items without the gem or have the same gem in it. With these two weapons the attack speeds are the same and the spear is actually stronger then the SK on paper but the elite affix on the SK is where SK advantage will come from .
But let's say the damage difference was 7.9% between the two. The SK would be 22.1% stronger against elites roughly but slightly weaker against trash. This is pretty sizeable advantage against elites which would make the SK more favourable in many situations.
The SK would be much stronger then the spear against elites as i mentioned, slightly worse against whites, but the SK doesn't have any weapon % damage on it so you could definately use a better one
Have you tried Wreath of Lightning at all? Guess I'm not sure which gem would be worth dropping for it, though!
edit: just tried it myself and it isn't worth it... trash at times was faster but all elites substantially slower. Meh.
For T6, either is fine, elites do not have enough HP to be noticeable.
Wreath of lightning does almost no damage ... Its a minor speed boost when active, you might as well take the Boon of the hoarder gem at least you will get gold and the same similar speed boost.
Its pretty close PE vs TOX even for GR, but TOX has a longer duration and this helps with herding and also does not need to be reapplied as often as PE so it gets a slight edge for GRs.
yes you should switch. Firebird gives you enough damage to do T6, if you combine it with Dominance and kill stuff fast enough you should be fine. And yes, a RRoG is very handy cause it allows for either a Cindercoat, Magefist or some other stuff, so your first thing to do after putting F6 on should be to farm a RRoG.
A half decent RORG is very useful and you'll get a lot of uses out of one on almost any build or character so definitely should try to get a serviceable one first.
As for using the firebird set or not, DEFINITELY use the firebird set, the damage from the 6 piece is basically irreplaceable from our skills or other pieces of gear.
Legendary gems are the next biggest damage contributors behind the firebird 6pc damage.
Dont pay too much attention to the display damage, for Firebird, you cannot compare the display damage against another build that doesn't use Firebirds.
He made it for the 2.1 PTR but i'm pretty sure it's still relevant for T6.
I'm all about using my play time wisely as well and am happy to help others.
Perhaps.
Cindercoat is very hard to replace and Astral Presence isn't going to be the answer. Flat regeneration of AP/second is second to spell reduction.
As well don't forget you will be losing 20% fire from the cindercoat, and shrines require RNG. Cool down and Speed shrine will definately be sexy with the GoW, but i'm talking about reliable front damage from start to finish. I did give GoW and illusory boots a mention in the thread as options, but not what i would deem the best.
So factoring in GoW RNG for shrines and the AP requirements of blizzard spamming, its not just not as reliable.
4 mins is VERY average. Sub 3mins is usually the norm if this build is looking to get to the RG and close rift.
Thanks for the discussion, just my opinions and reasonings.
It's usually pretty smooth and you don't miss a beat at all.
Armory | YouTube | Twitter | Clan Site
I'm going for consistency and reliability, from start of game to end. Yes shrine gloves fully stacked up are GG. But how often, is that going to happen?
+20% fire and -30% reduction is too good to give up. Especially when you consider how much AP you spend in heavy density rifts. Even considering using Conduit with Cindercoat for much better AP management. You will notice as you start clearing content faster, your AP starved a lot. And everytime you miss a cast thats losing efficiency.
Also from what I read, macros to swap items are grounds for termination. I'm not sure if it applies to 1-item though, but either way, its not difficult to swap bracers for a shrine.