Linkx, I totally understand your point of view but the fact that the Quran has science in it is something well known. Im not trying to argue, im sharing knowledge. The fact that i'm not managing to give you good examples does not mean that i am wrong.
First of all, about the stars, i think that you can describe nuclear fusion as "Burning".
And now for more examples of sceince in the Quran.
-There is a part in the Quran that god talks about the moon, the sun and the planets he describes them as so: "Each one is traveling in an orbit with its own motion". When did man discover that planets have orbits?
-"I built the heaven with power and it is I, who am expanding it". The expansion of the universe was first suggested by the general theory of relativity and is supported by the calculations of astrophysics. The regular movement of the galactic light towards the red section of the spectrum is explained by the distancing of one galaxy from another. Thus, the size of the universe appears to be progressively increasing.
-"Have We not made the earth an expanse and the mountains stakes / Pegs". the Modern earth sciences have proven that mountains have deep roots under the surface of the ground and that these roots can reach several times their elevations above the surface of the ground. So the most suitable word to describe mountains on the basis of this information is the word "peg", since most of a properly set peg is hidden under the surface of the ground. The history of science tells us that the theory of mountains having deep roots was introduced only in the latter half of the nineteenth century.
-Mountains also play an important role in stabilizing the crust of the earth. They hinder the shaking of the earth. God has said in the Quran: "And He has set firm mountains in the earth so that it would not shake with you..." Likewise, the modern theory of plate tectonics holds that mountains work as stabilizers for the earth. This knowledge about the role of mountains as stabilizers for the earth has just begun to be understood in the framework of plate tectonics since the late 1960’s.
-Some interesting info about our brain:
"No! If he does not stop, We will take him by the "naseyah" (front of the head), a lying, sinful "naseyah"!. Today we know that the prefrontal part of our brain is responsible for planning, motivating, and initiating good and sinful behavior and is responsible for the telling of lies and the speaking of truth. Scientists have only discovered these functions of the prefrontal area in the last sixty years...
Sorry, I'm still not convinced. Translations are often tweaked to suit ones needs. For example, I have seen other translations that says the heavens are an expanse - not expanding. How easily this can be misleadingly translated, it's not funny.
And you seem to have also skipped any false predictions.
Sorry, not convinced. And why is it that in this case god can freely give us all the "correct" information about the Universe? It has been argued that the incorrect scientific facts in the bible is there because the perfection of god works in ways we can't perceive. Does this suggest the Islamic god(s) are imperfect, or are we going to be altering and re-altering our arguments to support each and every religion?
Or maybe the people that are writing these books are making vague predictions that can be interpreted in many different ways such that it fits with the current theories of science?
Linkx, I totally understand your point of view but the fact that the Quran has science in it is something well known. Im not trying to argue, im sharing knowledge. The fact that i'm not managing to give you good examples does not mean that i am wrong.
Well, I'll try to explain where you are wrong with your quotes again. I'm no Carl Sagan or Steven Hawkins, but I'll give it the ol' college try.
-There is a part in the Quran that god talks about the moon, the sun and the planets he describes them as so: "Each one is traveling in an orbit with its own motion". When did man discover that planets have orbits?
Actually it's not the Earth's motion, but rather the motion of gravity from the well created by the sun that causes the Earth to orbit the Sun. No sun, no well. No well, no Earth orbit. (There were two ways I could read that, hopefully I read that the way you wanted it to be read.)
-"I built the heaven with power and it is I, who am expanding it". The expansion of the universe was first suggested by the general theory of relativity and is supported by the calculations of astrophysics. The regular movement of the galactic light towards the red section of the spectrum is explained by the distancing of one galaxy from another. Thus, the size of the universe appears to be progressively increasing.
I give you this, but what happens if there is more gravity then matter, and the Universe begins to come back upon itself in what is known in the Scientific Community as the Big Crunch? I hardly think they are going to change the Quran...
(Edit: And I hardly think that taking a 50/50 chance of the Universe either growing or shrinking is a scientific knowledge.)
-"Have We not made the earth an expanse and the mountains stakes / Pegs". the Modern earth sciences have proven that mountains have deep roots under the surface of the ground and that these roots can reach several times their elevations above the surface of the ground. So the most suitable word to describe mountains on the basis of this information is the word "peg", since most of a properly set peg is hidden under the surface of the ground. The history of science tells us that the theory of mountains having deep roots was introduced only in the latter half of the nineteenth century.
Actually, about 99% of the mountains of Earth are created by one plate sliding above another. Rockies. Appalachian. Andies. Alps. Etc. I wouldn't calla an entire tectonic plate a "peg". (Granted, there are mountains like the Hawaiian Islands, but we have to compare the frequency of those kinds of mountains with the other kinds of mountains.) (I am not the most knowledgeable about tectonic plates so if somebody else could add in some information, I'd be grateful. )
-Mountains also play an important role in stabilizing the crust of the earth. They hinder the shaking of the earth. God has said in the Quran: "And He has set firm mountains in the earth so that it would not shake with you..." Likewise, the modern theory of plate tectonics holds that mountains work as stabilizers for the earth. This knowledge about the role of mountains as stabilizers for the earth has just begun to be understood in the framework of plate tectonics since the late 1960’s.
Mountains are the proof of anything but stabilization... How do you think the Rockies were made, hugs and kisses? o.O A big ass plate hits another big ass plate, either one goes down or one goes up, and earthquakes rock the place.
-Some interesting info about our brain:
"No! If he does not stop, We will take him by the "naseyah" (front of the head), a lying, sinful "naseyah"!. Today we know that the prefrontal part of our brain is responsible for planning, motivating, and initiating good and sinful behavior and is responsible for the telling of lies and the speaking of truth. Scientists have only discovered these functions of the prefrontal area in the last sixty years...
With all due respect, this sounds like, from the context, another issue with translation. Similar to the way Murder in the Ten Commandments doesn't mean generic murder but rather murder of an Israelie. I can't comment on this one as much as I'd like, because I don't have all the information. :/ Sorry!
Can you please stop talking about Christianity and the Bible, and start talking about the Quran, and start giving me examples from those specific things, without retorting to Google? Wait, you can't? Thought so. You haven't read the Quran. You know next to nothing about it and about Islam, so stop defaming it.
Yes you're right, I don't know much if anything about it. But that's a pretty low blow to criticize me for not knowing about such a specialized topic.
I wouldn't have even made a single post in this thread if it was labelled "Quran Vs. Science" But since it's about religion, that I do know. And I was brought up in a Christian family, so you can guess which religion I am specifically going to be addressing.
Good luck proving to me that people were brainwashed thousands of years ago.
I doubt your grandpa or daddio were alive back then. They didn't "prove" anything, they just preached, and you were free to believe. Some performed miracles, some things were performed by God.
Take a look at the nature of people. They easily succumb to any rumours that seem to explain that which they do not know. It's not surprising that many people in the past believed in those stories, because belief spreads like wildfire - in other words, you would be shunned by the community if you opposed their belief. And what is critically important to note in this case is that no one had any reason to not believe in it. It was their only answer.
If you don't want to believe that kind of stuff, don't. I do. But don't start berating me for believing in what I believe, because I certainly am not doing that.
Feel free to believe what you want to believe, but I for one, will not live my life thinking that I'm just living life for the sake of living it, and that there's no endgame content.
What you believe doesn't concern me. I just want to ask you, if you're happy with your life then why do you need to be considering what will happen in your afterlife when you,
1) Aren't sure it even exists
2) Probably haven't even considered what you will do 10 years from now
Doesn't it occur to you that man could've made up that whole heaven-hell comparison just to try and make you and me a better person in life? The most effective tool in changing someone's attitude is fear, and this is what they're using against us.
But if heaven and hell exists, why would we have a justice system? Why don't they just leave it in the devil's hands to punish them for the rest of eternity? Sorry, I don't mean to sound rude, but justice systems were created because there are many logical minded people out there that can see passed this brainwashing scheme, and lots of them are bad people too.
Tell you what. Provide me with some of that hardcore scientific "evidence" proving that God doesn't exist, and I'll rest my case. Just as I can't actually PROVE that God exists, you equally CAN'T prove that he DOESN'T exist.
This argument has been used to death already...
You know that when Galileo gave some of that hardcore scientific evidence you're referring to about the Earth revolving around the Sun, he was tortured for it. Before this, if anyone questioned the Bible's facts then the same argument could have been produced: "Well then prove that it isn't true". Back then it couldn't, but what about now? Oh well now it's different. No one even thinks of arguing for the Bible's facts without coming up with some very crude and imaginative responses such as "the math was wrong".
The only evidence one can give for your query is of course limited to the discoveries Science has already made. I can say for one that if God is perfect, then he wouldn't be so imperfect as to create lies.
At the end of the day, this is just an argument with no end in sight. It's like two people arguing about The Lochness Monster. There's no proof that it exists, but there's no proof that it absolutely does not exist.
Notice your use of "absolutely". Evidence is swaying much more towards that it doesn't exist because proving/disproving that the Loch Ness monster exists is a much easier challenge and within modern Science's grasp than proving god doesn't exist. They were both based on the same principle though. Some people think they saw something and their imagination ran wild.
There was the tribe of Quraish back when the Prophet Muhammed was spreading the word of Islam. An entire fucking tribe opposing him and Islam. Not to mention all the other people who didn't associate with Muhammad, or with the Quraish tribe. Get your facts straight. All you know abou is Christianity, yet you denounce God and all forms of religion.
Give me a break with all your conspiracy theories and all that Prison Break nonsense. I have a firm belief in the afterlife..where do you get off telling me that I don't? I know where I'm gonna be 50 years from now, nevertheless 10.
Justice systems are created because..wow, OMG, did you seriously just bring up such a horrid point? God didn't say that he will punish people directly, right off the bat, if they commit a sin. He wouldn't spray you with his titty milk from up in heaven if you murdered someone. You can do whatever you want on Earth, but when you die, you're gonna go to Hell if you are a sinner. The justice system is something implemented thousands of years ago, even by the prophet Muhammed. Dear God, that was such a horrible point you were trying to make.
Bible Bible bla bla bla..stop talking to me about Christianity.
God, Mephisto I find your lack of common sense disturbing. I love how you take my one line and take it completely out of context when this entire thread could get anybody banned for "religious discrimination". If you want to debate, be prepared to be called out on your bullshit or please don't be part of this because I have a feeling that you are posting just to feel... what do you call it... "big".
I would much rather believe in the harsh truth than the comforting lie, but apparently, that's just a "matter of opinion". I posted on your response to that and I would like to remind you that you also use quite "interesting" words to label other people's opinions, do please don't be a hypocrite. If you want to get me banned, please try. I am honestly sick of you coming into threads, posting opinions, and when people respond to it, you laugh at it and ruin the entire thread because you have to act like a troll in everything you do.
But hey, I guess that's just a matter of opinion.
You called my argument bullshit. Do that, or anything remotely close to it, and you're gonna be permanently banned. Simple as that. You didn't post an opinion, you posted an insult, and I bet you my frikkin' account that every single person on the staff list will agree with me.
LinkX, sugarplumb, I'm not a troll. You just think I'm a troll because I keep owning your ass 20482084 ways from Sunday, and everyone but you and your (apparently) boyfriend Irrational fail to see that. Lol@2 out of like, 200 members hating me. The argument you made about pixies and Kami and all those whatevers is more ridiculous than any of your other arguments. LOL. Those characters can be attributed to human beings who admittedly created them. They're a form of art, and they have well known artists. How the fuck did you even think that one out, I don't know.
Man, you guys are making a fool out of yourselves..you should just retire from posting in this thread.
-Mephisto's Lament-, you're honestly being such a hypocrite. He called your argument bullshit, you threaten to ban him, you call mine bullshit and make your negative emotions very clear, should I threaten to ban you? Oh wait I can't, and whatever, it's not like I would care to do so. Get out of your high chair and debate like a man, not a little boy with more power than he knows what to do with.
All your negativity obviously stems from your firm beliefs in an afterlife. Whether this is a false hope or not doesn't bother you one bit, well fine, but I'm not going to bother arguing with such a closed-minded individual. And I know you'll surely have a problem with that comment so just ban me for it...
Hell was described in great detail as being so horrid we couldn't even fathom the pain it would bring to us. And for all eternity too? This seems like more than enough punishment for your sins on Earth in such a short lifetime. If this fear actually got through to everyone, then we would have no need for a justice system! It's because we have non-believers on both the good and bad sides of the law that we need one. It's the only logical way to punish someone because lets face it, if heaven and hell isn't real (I know you find that very hard to swallow, but it IS a possibility) then these sinners would have gotten off scot-free.
Linkx, I totally understand your point of view but the fact that the Quran has science in it is something well known. Im not trying to argue, im sharing knowledge. The fact that i'm not managing to give you good examples does not mean that i am wrong.
Well, I'll try to explain where you are wrong with your quotes again. I'm no Carl Sagan or Steven Hawkins, but I'll give it the ol' college try.
-There is a part in the Quran that god talks about the moon, the sun and the planets he describes them as so: "Each one is traveling in an orbit with its own motion". When did man discover that planets have orbits?
Actually it's not the Earth's motion, but rather the motion of gravity from the well created by the sun that causes the Earth to orbit the Sun. No sun, no well. No well, no Earth orbit. (There were two ways I could read that, hopefully I read that the way you wanted it to be read.)
-"I built the heaven with power and it is I, who am expanding it". The expansion of the universe was first suggested by the general theory of relativity and is supported by the calculations of astrophysics. The regular movement of the galactic light towards the red section of the spectrum is explained by the distancing of one galaxy from another. Thus, the size of the universe appears to be progressively increasing.
I give you this, but what happens if there is more gravity then matter, and the Universe begins to come back upon itself in what is known in the Scientific Community as the Big Crunch? I hardly think they are going to change the Quran...
(Edit: And I hardly think that taking a 50/50 chance of the Universe either growing or shrinking is a scientific knowledge.)
-"Have We not made the earth an expanse and the mountains stakes / Pegs". the Modern earth sciences have proven that mountains have deep roots under the surface of the ground and that these roots can reach several times their elevations above the surface of the ground. So the most suitable word to describe mountains on the basis of this information is the word "peg", since most of a properly set peg is hidden under the surface of the ground. The history of science tells us that the theory of mountains having deep roots was introduced only in the latter half of the nineteenth century.
Actually, about 99% of the mountains of Earth are created by one plate sliding above another. Rockies. Appalachian. Andies. Alps. Etc. I wouldn't calla an entire tectonic plate a "peg". (Granted, there are mountains like the Hawaiian Islands, but we have to compare the frequency of those kinds of mountains with the other kinds of mountains.) (I am not the most knowledgeable about tectonic plates so if somebody else could add in some information, I'd be grateful. )
-Mountains also play an important role in stabilizing the crust of the earth. They hinder the shaking of the earth. God has said in the Quran: "And He has set firm mountains in the earth so that it would not shake with you..." Likewise, the modern theory of plate tectonics holds that mountains work as stabilizers for the earth. This knowledge about the role of mountains as stabilizers for the earth has just begun to be understood in the framework of plate tectonics since the late 1960’s.
Mountains are the proof of anything but stabilization... How do you think the Rockies were made, hugs and kisses? o.O A big ass plate hits another big ass plate, either one goes down or one goes up, and earthquakes rock the place.
-Some interesting info about our brain:
"No! If he does not stop, We will take him by the "naseyah" (front of the head), a lying, sinful "naseyah"!. Today we know that the prefrontal part of our brain is responsible for planning, motivating, and initiating good and sinful behavior and is responsible for the telling of lies and the speaking of truth. Scientists have only discovered these functions of the prefrontal area in the last sixty years...
With all due respect, this sounds like, from the context, another issue with translation. Similar to the way Murder in the Ten Commandments doesn't mean generic murder but rather murder of an Israelie. I can't comment on this one as much as I'd like, because I don't have all the information. :/ Sorry!
I know how mountains are created, but after they are, they do from these pegs / roots that i mentioned. When preassure is released somewhere as a mountain, it stablizes the area for a long period of time. An entire tectonic plate is not a peg. After the tectonic plates clash and form a mountain, a peg is created.
Anyway dude, if you fail to see how these are scientific issues presented to us in one of the holy books then i cant convince you otherwise. It is clearly sience. If you agree with it or not, or if you can post theories that counter it, its your opinion and right. But you cant deny that this is infact sience. And that was my point from the start.
-Mephisto's Lament-, you're honestly being such a hypocrite. He called your argument bullshit, you threaten to ban him, you call mine bullshit and make your negative emotions very clear, should I threaten to ban you? Oh wait I can't, and whatever, it's not like I would care to do so. Get out of your high chair and debate like a man, not a little boy with more power than he knows what to do with.
All your negativity obviously stems from your firm beliefs in an afterlife. Whether this is a false hope or not doesn't bother you one bit, well fine, but I'm not going to bother arguing with such a closed-minded individual. And I know you'll surely have a problem with that comment so just ban me for it...
Hell was described in great detail as being so horrid we couldn't even fathom the pain it would bring to us. And for all eternity too? This seems like more than enough punishment for your sins on Earth in such a short lifetime. If this fear actually got through to everyone, then we would have no need for a justice system! It's because we have non-believers on both the good and bad sides of the law that we need one. It's the only logical way to punish someone because lets face it, if heaven and hell isn't real (I know you find that very hard to swallow, but it IS a possibility) then these sinners would have gotten off scot-free.
I would have had absolutely no problem if he called my argument ridiculous or nonsensical, then stated why. Absolutely none. Calling it bullshit is crossing the line. I'm not on a high chair, and I have no powers as I can't ban anyone myself, and even if I did, I wouldn't have banned him on the spot.
Even believers do wrong things. It's near impossible to live a completely virtuous life. God is forgiving, and if you do a lot more good than you did bad, you are forgiven (but that shouldn't be used as an excuse for doing completely fuck-awful things). In my mind, there's no possibility that there is no heaven and hell. Absolutely none, so I can't even imagine your scenario.
Can you please stop talking about Christianity and the Bible, and start talking about the Quran, and start giving me examples from those specific things, without retorting to Google? Wait, you can't? Thought so. You haven't read the Quran. You know next to nothing about it and about Islam, so stop defaming it.
Yes you're right, I don't know much if anything about it. But that's a pretty low blow to criticize me for not knowing about such a specialized topic. I wouldn't have even made a single post in this thread if it was labelled "Quran Vs. Science" But since it's about religion, that I do know. And I was brought up in a Christian family, so you can guess which religion I am specifically going to be addressing.
Good luck proving to me that people were brainwashed thousands of years ago.I doubt your grandpa or daddio were alive back then. They didn't "prove" anything, they just preached, and you were free to believe. Some performed miracles, some things were performed by God.
Take a look at the nature of people. They easily succumb to any rumours that seem to explain that which they do not know. It's not surprising that many people in the past believed in those stories, because belief spreads like wildfire - in other words, you would be shunned by the community if you opposed their belief. And what is critically important to note in this case is that no one had any reason to not believe in it. It was their only answer.
If you don't want to believe that kind of stuff, don't. I do. But don't start berating me for believing in what I believe, because I certainly am not doing that.
Feel free to believe what you want to believe, but I for one, will not live my life thinking that I'm just living life for the sake of living it, and that there's no endgame content.
What you believe doesn't concern me. I just want to ask you, if you're happy with your life then why do you need to be considering what will happen in your afterlife when you,1) Aren't sure it even exists2) Probably haven't even considered what you will do 10 years from now Doesn't it occur to you that man could've made up that whole heaven-hell comparison just to try and make you and me a better person in life? The most effective tool in changing someone's attitude is fear, and this is what they're using against us.But if heaven and hell exists, why would we have a justice system? Why don't they just leave it in the devil's hands to punish them for the rest of eternity? Sorry, I don't mean to sound rude, but justice systems were created because there are many logical minded people out there that can see passed this brainwashing scheme, and lots of them are bad people too.
Tell you what. Provide me with some of that hardcore scientific "evidence" proving that God doesn't exist, and I'll rest my case. Just as I can't actually PROVE that God exists, you equally CAN'T prove that he DOESN'T exist.
This argument has been used to death already...You know that when Galileo gave some of that hardcore scientific evidence you're referring to about the Earth revolving around the Sun, he was tortured for it. Before this, if anyone questioned the Bible's facts then the same argument could have been produced: "Well then prove that it isn't true". Back then it couldn't, but what about now? Oh well now it's different. No one even thinks of arguing for the Bible's facts without coming up with some very crude and imaginative responses such as "the math was wrong".The only evidence one can give for your query is of course limited to the discoveries Science has already made. I can say for one that if God is perfect, then he wouldn't be so imperfect as to create lies.
At the end of the day, this is just an argument with no end in sight. It's like two people arguing about The Lochness Monster. There's no proof that it exists, but there's no proof that it absolutely does not exist.
Notice your use of "absolutely". Evidence is swaying much more towards that it doesn't exist because proving/disproving that the Loch Ness monster exists is a much easier challenge and within modern Science's grasp than proving god doesn't exist. They were both based on the same principle though. Some people think they saw something and their imagination ran wild.
There was the tribe of Quraish back when the Prophet Muhammed was spreading the word of Islam. An entire fucking tribe opposing him and Islam. Not to mention all the other people who didn't associate with Muhammad, or with the Quraish tribe. Get your facts straight. All you know abou is Christianity, yet you denounce God and all forms of religion.Give me a break with all your conspiracy theories and all that Prison Break nonsense. I have a firm belief in the afterlife..where do you get off telling me that I don't? I know where I'm gonna be 50 years from now, nevertheless 10.Justice systems are created because..wow, OMG, did you seriously just bring up such a horrid point? God didn't say that he will punish people directly, right off the bat, if they commit a sin. He wouldn't spray you with his titty milk from up in heaven if you murdered someone. You can do whatever you want on Earth, but when you die, you're gonna go to Hell if you are a sinner. The justice system is something implemented thousands of years ago, even by the prophet Muhammed. Dear God, that was such a horrible point you were trying to make.Bible Bible bla bla bla..stop talking to me about Christianity.
God, Mephisto I find your lack of common sense disturbing. I love how you take my one line and take it completely out of context when this entire thread could get anybody banned for "religious discrimination". If you want to debate, be prepared to be called out on your bullshit or please don't be part of this because I have a feeling that you are posting just to feel... what do you call it... "big". I would much rather believe in the harsh truth than the comforting lie, but apparently, that's just a "matter of opinion". I posted on your response to that and I would like to remind you that you also use quite "interesting" words to label other people's opinions, do please don't be a hypocrite. If you want to get me banned, please try. I am honestly sick of you coming into threads, posting opinions, and when people respond to it, you laugh at it and ruin the entire thread because you have to act like a troll in everything you do.But hey, I guess that's just a matter of opinion.
You called my argument bullshit. Do that, or anything remotely close to it, and you're gonna be permanently banned. Simple as that. You didn't post an opinion, you posted an insult, and I bet you my frikkin' account that every single person on the staff list will agree with me.LinkX, sugarplumb, I'm not a troll. You just think I'm a troll because I keep owning your ass 20482084 ways from Sunday, and everyone but you and your (apparently) boyfriend Irrational fail to see that. Lol@2 out of like, 200 members hating me. The argument you made about pixies and Kami and all those whatevers is more ridiculous than any of your other arguments. LOL. Those characters can be attributed to human beings who admittedly created them. They're a form of art, and they have well known artists. How the fuck did you even think that one out, I don't know.Man, you guys are making a fool out of yourselves..you should just retire from posting in this thread.
I would have had absolutely no problem if he called my argument ridiculous or nonsensical, then stated why. Absolutely none. Calling it bullshit is crossing the line. I'm not on a high chair, and I have no powers as I can't ban anyone myself, and even if I did, I wouldn't have banned him on the spot.Even believers do wrong things. It's near impossible to live a completely virtuous life. God is forgiving, and if you do a lot more good than you did bad, you are forgiven (but that shouldn't be used as an excuse for doing completely fuck-awful things). In my mind, there's no possibility that there is no heaven and hell. Absolutely none, so I can't even imagine your scenario.
I honestly don't get it. You're pretty much cornered in every way here. You got caught on your bullshit in every way, including with your arguments, your ban call, your hypocrisy, etc, and you still are finding a way to try to argue back. Look at the arguments you're presenting:
I would have had absolutely no problem if he called my argument ridiculous or nonsensical, then stated why. Absolutely none.
The argument of "God is the ONLY answer" is universally known as nonsense because it was the attitude of the people in the Dark Ages. This answer is usually frowned upon because of the absolute denial of an open mind. Also did I ever say "Your view is bullshit!" No. I said "The entire 'God is the ONLY answer' bullshit". I would also like to remind you that you call a lot of other things bullshit, and that it seems to be perfectly fine to you, even though you get called out on it a lot by people that are not me, LinkX, or Puttah. But hey, I guess rules don't apply to you.
Even believers do wrong things. It's near impossible to live a completely virtuous life. God is forgiving, and if you do a lot more good than you did bad, you are forgiven (but that shouldn't be used as an excuse for doing completely fuck-awful things). In my mind, there's no possibility that there is no heaven and hell. Absolutely none, so I can't even imagine your scenario.
Again, you are preaching to us now. You are saying that if we live a life as a believer and are "forgiven", then we shall go into this place that you call heaven (or hell depending on how you live). Interesting sales man technique. Here's a counter example: I made a religion called Irrationalism. It's if you don't do good you get your face nailed to a wall while having your genitals ripped from under you.
Seems motivating enough right? No. It's a simple sales man technique used by religions to make followers scared and need to follow that religion.
You called my argument bullshit. Do that, or anything remotely close to it, and you're gonna be permanently banned. Simple as that.
Read above. Threatening to say that someone will get banned is an equal infraction, I got reminded of that myself once. I would watch my back if I were you
.LinkX, sugarplumb, I'm not a troll. You just think I'm a troll because I keep owning your ass 20482084 ways from Sunday, and everyone but you and your (apparently) boyfriend Irrational fail to see that.
The argument you made about pixies and Kami and all those whatevers is more ridiculous than any of your other arguments. LOL. Those characters can be attributed to human beings who admittedly created them. They're a form of art, and they have well known artists. How the fuck did you even think that one out, I don't know.
LOL! I'm sorry this can't be ignored.
You: You can't disprove anything. Therefor it's real.
LinkX: So because I can't disprove Santa and pixies, they're real?
You: Of course not. They're not real. Where did you get that from? LOL!
You two haven't cornered me in a single thing. I wasn't hypocritical in any single thing that I said. Calling a person's argument bullshit, and calling a person's argument nonsensical are two completely and entirely different things. Point is, I can call your argument bullshit and not get banned, because, I don't know, I haven't been given 200 chances and promised to be a model user before. You have, yet you keep shitting on everyone who vouched for you.
I've never called anyone's argument bullshit. No one on this forum is more annoyed by me than you and LinkX, and it just so happens that 95% of the forum dislikes you two, and 95% of the forum practically worships me. Again, the world isn't at fault, you are. Realize that already.
God IS the only answer when it comes to that specific thing that I mentioned. It's been more than 2000 years, and they still can't explain how the world/universe came to be. The big bang theory isn't even a concrete one. Good luck getting passed the initial step, and finding out with irrefutable scientific evidence the infinite steps that came before it.
The only reason I'm not a moderator is because we don't need one. I can be a dick and tell Sixen to give me mod powers else I'll leave, and he more than likely would, because I'm not nearly as erratic as I once was. There's no need for more people with mod powers. There's a need for a community manager. If I'm such a bad member, my bans wouldn't be almost automatically lifted, and I wouldn't be on the staff list.
Religion doesn't MAKE you believe in it. God isn't FORCING you to believe in him. It's simply put. Don't worship God, you go to hell. You're free not to believe that. You're free to believe that. I'm not making you believe what I believe, I'm simply stating it. If you think it's a salesman technique, be my guest. I don't.
I can threaten you. I'm a staff member. You weren't. Good point you made there, champ.
Lol@you completely not getting my point. The Transformers aren't real because known people are behind their creation. Art is not real because there are known HUMAN artists behind them. Pixies are not real because known people created them. Can you please tell me which people, or group of people, created the idea of a divine entity ruling over the world? No, you can't. Ask the guy who created Charizard, and he'll tell you that he created him and that he's not real. That's the absolute difference. If you want to go ahead and tell me that this specific point that I'm making is funny, or doesn't make sense. Go ahead. You'll only be making a fool of yourself. It's completely logical and completely valid, yet you can't grasp that because you wet yourself when LinkX suggested that argument, and I just butchered it to pieces.
Yeah, you are. More than one user has given you irrefutable proof that what you're saying is utter nonsense, yet you don't seem to want to give it a rest and say "hmm, maybe you have a point there!".
I didn't know Christianity was a balancing act... More good things than bad is what makes God forgive you? If that's your personal conviction that's fine but that's not what the bible supports. I mean even the one parable (can't remember the name of it, google what I'm paraphrasing) that talks about the guy who hired these guys to work for him and they work the entire day and then he hired another guy for like the last hour of the day to do the same work as the other guys and then he gave them all the same amount of pay... Now I realize parables are probably one of the most debated elements of the bible in their meaning but I would say it's not how many good compared to bad you do, it's where you're at at the moment.
For example, Jeffery Dahmer or w/e his name was was a serial killer who ate the people he killed... Now, he was "converted" in prison before his execution, I'm sure his bad outweighs his good, but if he truly actually did repent and so forth do you think he will go to heaven?
I'm not talking about what the bible supports as I'm a Muslim. I don't know what it's like with Christianity, but in Islam, as long as you're a Muslim, whatever you do, you're gonna go to Heaven. It's not a free ticket though. You go to hell for your sins, but you're eventually gonna go to heaven.
I didn't know Christianity was a balancing act... More good things than bad is what makes God forgive you? If that's your personal conviction that's fine but that's not what the bible supports. I mean even the one parable (can't remember the name of it, google what I'm paraphrasing) that talks about the guy who hired these guys to work for him and they work the entire day and then he hired another guy for like the last hour of the day to do the same work as the other guys and then he gave them all the same amount of pay...
You mean the Parable of the Two workers?
Now I realize parables are probably one of the most debated elements of the bible in their meaning but I would say it's not how many good compared to bad you do, it's where you're at at the moment.
But they are also explained in the Bible right away. One only needs to read it to find that out.
For example, Jeffery Dahmer or w/e his name was was a serial killer who ate the people he killed... Now, he was "converted" in prison before his execution, I'm sure his bad outweighs his good, but if he truly actually did repent and so forth do you think he will go to heaven?
You know, the Son of Sam had an actual real conversion while in prison. He did radio interviews and even said that he deserved what he was getting. He came to terms with the fact that he was completely wrong for his actions and deserved his punishment. But it didn't bother him because he said that he was going to heaven. Now, I lived in Milwaukee when the things with Dahmer went on. As for his "conversion", the actual chances of him having a real conversion are, IMO, slim to none. To say he didn't have one is not up to me. He was killed shortly after he was taken to the max security prison. If his conversion was real then yes, he would go to heaven. Look at the thief on the cross next to Jesus. Prime example of a conversion while imprisoned. Hell, he was dying on a cross! Asked Jesus to remember him when he got to his Kingdom, Jesus' response was "Today, you will be with me in Paradise". True conversion does happen, and can happen no matter what you have done in your life.
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With all due respect, this sounds like, from the context, another issue with translation. Similar to the way Murder in the Ten Commandments doesn't mean generic murder but rather murder of an Israelie. I can't comment on this one as much as I'd like, because I don't have all the information. :/ Sorry!
Where is it confirmed that the Ten Commandments from Moses only apply to Israelites? Sure it is believed that it was given to Moses by God for the sake of how to guide his people (the Israelites) but it does not confirm that this only applied to said people when this principle applied worldwide amongst the course of 2K years.
Where is it confirmed that the Ten Commandments from Moses only apply to Israelites? Sure it is believed that it was given to Moses by God for the sake of how to guide his people (the Israelites) but it does not confirm that this only applied to said people when this principle applied worldwide amongst the course of 2K years.
Oh no no no. You misunderstand what I say. I don't mean the Ten Commandments are only for Isrealites. (I don't think they are for anything, but that's beside the point. Haha.) The Hebrew word used in the Ten Commandments for Murder was ratsakh. If I am not mistaken, it has two definitions, one is illegal murder (ie not putting someone to death ala the court system) and killing an Israelite. However, when it was originally translated to English, they used murder to replace ratsakh.
Where is it confirmed that the Ten Commandments from Moses only apply to Israelites? Sure it is believed that it was given to Moses by God for the sake of how to guide his people (the Israelites) but it does not confirm that this only applied to said people when this principle applied worldwide amongst the course of 2K years.
Oh no no no. You misunderstand what I say. I don't mean the Ten Commandments are only for Isrealites. (I don't think they are for anything, but that's beside the point. Haha.) The Hebrew word used in the Ten Commandments for Murder was ratsakh. If I am not mistaken, it has two definitions, one is illegal murder (ie not putting someone to death ala the court system) and killing an Israelite. However, when it was originally translated to English, they used murder to replace ratsakh.
And I hope I spelled that right...
"retsakh" means killing someone with the intention to do it. Murder, yes. About the second defenition, im not sure, i never heard of another meaning for this word, i even ried checking but i couldnt find anything. "ratsakh" is murdered in the past. i dont understand how the translation is wrong? or is it?
It was an older meaning. Like how queer means gay now, and you only see it used as meaning gay, but a while back it used to mean abnormal or wierd.
I'll see if I can't find it after work today. Just remind me.
Are you sure about that? I found a hebrew bible lexicon or however you call it. anyway under the verb "retsakh" i could only find one meaning. It is explained what different punishments a man would get if he murdered on purpose or by accident. Im interested in these kind of things so if you can find a link it would be nice.
Edit: Oh and it is made clear that in the 10 commandments it says "lo tertsakh" which means do not murder. It is considered a murder if a man is killed without trial or court.
If anyone will address another concern I have about Christianity. The Earth was apparently created 6000 years ago while Jesus came to be 2000 years ago. If Jesus was the messenger of God in a sense and as such, the bible was created in his honour, and the bible speaks of obeying the ten commandments or you will go to hell if you don't pray for forgiveness, then would've all those that lived between 2000-6000 years ago be left in the dark about it all and since they had no knowledge of praying or of god then they would go to hell because everyone obviously sins.
I don't know much about the old testament, but did this book address this concern? What was the ancient peoples' beliefs regarding Christianity?
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First of all, about the stars, i think that you can describe nuclear fusion as "Burning".
And now for more examples of sceince in the Quran.
-There is a part in the Quran that god talks about the moon, the sun and the planets he describes them as so: "Each one is traveling in an orbit with its own motion". When did man discover that planets have orbits?
-"I built the heaven with power and it is I, who am expanding it". The expansion of the universe was first suggested by the general theory of relativity and is supported by the calculations of astrophysics. The regular movement of the galactic light towards the red section of the spectrum is explained by the distancing of one galaxy from another. Thus, the size of the universe appears to be progressively increasing.
-"Have We not made the earth an expanse and the mountains stakes / Pegs". the Modern earth sciences have proven that mountains have deep roots under the surface of the ground and that these roots can reach several times their elevations above the surface of the ground. So the most suitable word to describe mountains on the basis of this information is the word "peg", since most of a properly set peg is hidden under the surface of the ground. The history of science tells us that the theory of mountains having deep roots was introduced only in the latter half of the nineteenth century.
-Mountains also play an important role in stabilizing the crust of the earth. They hinder the shaking of the earth. God has said in the Quran: "And He has set firm mountains in the earth so that it would not shake with you..." Likewise, the modern theory of plate tectonics holds that mountains work as stabilizers for the earth. This knowledge about the role of mountains as stabilizers for the earth has just begun to be understood in the framework of plate tectonics since the late 1960’s.
-Some interesting info about our brain:
"No! If he does not stop, We will take him by the "naseyah" (front of the head), a lying, sinful "naseyah"!. Today we know that the prefrontal part of our brain is responsible for planning, motivating, and initiating good and sinful behavior and is responsible for the telling of lies and the speaking of truth. Scientists have only discovered these functions of the prefrontal area in the last sixty years...
And you seem to have also skipped any false predictions.
Sorry, not convinced. And why is it that in this case god can freely give us all the "correct" information about the Universe? It has been argued that the incorrect scientific facts in the bible is there because the perfection of god works in ways we can't perceive. Does this suggest the Islamic god(s) are imperfect, or are we going to be altering and re-altering our arguments to support each and every religion?
Or maybe the people that are writing these books are making vague predictions that can be interpreted in many different ways such that it fits with the current theories of science?
edit: This debunking site might be of interest to you http://councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=4537.0
Well, I'll try to explain where you are wrong with your quotes again. I'm no Carl Sagan or Steven Hawkins, but I'll give it the ol' college try.
You can also describe swiming as a "flying" underwater. Doesn't make it scientifically accurate though.
Actually it's not the Earth's motion, but rather the motion of gravity from the well created by the sun that causes the Earth to orbit the Sun. No sun, no well. No well, no Earth orbit. (There were two ways I could read that, hopefully I read that the way you wanted it to be read.)
I give you this, but what happens if there is more gravity then matter, and the Universe begins to come back upon itself in what is known in the Scientific Community as the Big Crunch? I hardly think they are going to change the Quran...
(Edit: And I hardly think that taking a 50/50 chance of the Universe either growing or shrinking is a scientific knowledge.)
Actually, about 99% of the mountains of Earth are created by one plate sliding above another. Rockies. Appalachian. Andies. Alps. Etc. I wouldn't calla an entire tectonic plate a "peg". (Granted, there are mountains like the Hawaiian Islands, but we have to compare the frequency of those kinds of mountains with the other kinds of mountains.) (I am not the most knowledgeable about tectonic plates so if somebody else could add in some information, I'd be grateful. )
Mountains are the proof of anything but stabilization... How do you think the Rockies were made, hugs and kisses? o.O A big ass plate hits another big ass plate, either one goes down or one goes up, and earthquakes rock the place.
With all due respect, this sounds like, from the context, another issue with translation. Similar to the way Murder in the Ten Commandments doesn't mean generic murder but rather murder of an Israelie. I can't comment on this one as much as I'd like, because I don't have all the information. :/ Sorry!
There was the tribe of Quraish back when the Prophet Muhammed was spreading the word of Islam. An entire fucking tribe opposing him and Islam. Not to mention all the other people who didn't associate with Muhammad, or with the Quraish tribe. Get your facts straight. All you know abou is Christianity, yet you denounce God and all forms of religion.
Give me a break with all your conspiracy theories and all that Prison Break nonsense. I have a firm belief in the afterlife..where do you get off telling me that I don't? I know where I'm gonna be 50 years from now, nevertheless 10.
Justice systems are created because..wow, OMG, did you seriously just bring up such a horrid point? God didn't say that he will punish people directly, right off the bat, if they commit a sin. He wouldn't spray you with his titty milk from up in heaven if you murdered someone. You can do whatever you want on Earth, but when you die, you're gonna go to Hell if you are a sinner. The justice system is something implemented thousands of years ago, even by the prophet Muhammed. Dear God, that was such a horrible point you were trying to make.
Bible Bible bla bla bla..stop talking to me about Christianity.
You called my argument bullshit. Do that, or anything remotely close to it, and you're gonna be permanently banned. Simple as that. You didn't post an opinion, you posted an insult, and I bet you my frikkin' account that every single person on the staff list will agree with me.
LinkX, sugarplumb, I'm not a troll. You just think I'm a troll because I keep owning your ass 20482084 ways from Sunday, and everyone but you and your (apparently) boyfriend Irrational fail to see that. Lol@2 out of like, 200 members hating me. The argument you made about pixies and Kami and all those whatevers is more ridiculous than any of your other arguments. LOL. Those characters can be attributed to human beings who admittedly created them. They're a form of art, and they have well known artists. How the fuck did you even think that one out, I don't know.
Man, you guys are making a fool out of yourselves..you should just retire from posting in this thread.
Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions
All your negativity obviously stems from your firm beliefs in an afterlife. Whether this is a false hope or not doesn't bother you one bit, well fine, but I'm not going to bother arguing with such a closed-minded individual. And I know you'll surely have a problem with that comment so just ban me for it...
Hell was described in great detail as being so horrid we couldn't even fathom the pain it would bring to us. And for all eternity too? This seems like more than enough punishment for your sins on Earth in such a short lifetime. If this fear actually got through to everyone, then we would have no need for a justice system! It's because we have non-believers on both the good and bad sides of the law that we need one. It's the only logical way to punish someone because lets face it, if heaven and hell isn't real (I know you find that very hard to swallow, but it IS a possibility) then these sinners would have gotten off scot-free.
I know how mountains are created, but after they are, they do from these pegs / roots that i mentioned. When preassure is released somewhere as a mountain, it stablizes the area for a long period of time. An entire tectonic plate is not a peg. After the tectonic plates clash and form a mountain, a peg is created.
Anyway dude, if you fail to see how these are scientific issues presented to us in one of the holy books then i cant convince you otherwise. It is clearly sience. If you agree with it or not, or if you can post theories that counter it, its your opinion and right. But you cant deny that this is infact sience. And that was my point from the start.
I would have had absolutely no problem if he called my argument ridiculous or nonsensical, then stated why. Absolutely none. Calling it bullshit is crossing the line. I'm not on a high chair, and I have no powers as I can't ban anyone myself, and even if I did, I wouldn't have banned him on the spot.
Even believers do wrong things. It's near impossible to live a completely virtuous life. God is forgiving, and if you do a lot more good than you did bad, you are forgiven (but that shouldn't be used as an excuse for doing completely fuck-awful things). In my mind, there's no possibility that there is no heaven and hell. Absolutely none, so I can't even imagine your scenario.
Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions
I honestly don't get it. You're pretty much cornered in every way here. You got caught on your bullshit in every way, including with your arguments, your ban call, your hypocrisy, etc, and you still are finding a way to try to argue back. Look at the arguments you're presenting:
The argument of "God is the ONLY answer" is universally known as nonsense because it was the attitude of the people in the Dark Ages. This answer is usually frowned upon because of the absolute denial of an open mind. Also did I ever say "Your view is bullshit!" No. I said "The entire 'God is the ONLY answer' bullshit". I would also like to remind you that you call a lot of other things bullshit, and that it seems to be perfectly fine to you, even though you get called out on it a lot by people that are not me, LinkX, or Puttah. But hey, I guess rules don't apply to you.
There is a good reason why you are not on a moderator.
Again, you are preaching to us now. You are saying that if we live a life as a believer and are "forgiven", then we shall go into this place that you call heaven (or hell depending on how you live). Interesting sales man technique. Here's a counter example: I made a religion called Irrationalism. It's if you don't do good you get your face nailed to a wall while having your genitals ripped from under you.
Seems motivating enough right? No. It's a simple sales man technique used by religions to make followers scared and need to follow that religion.
Read above. Threatening to say that someone will get banned is an equal infraction, I got reminded of that myself once. I would watch my back if I were you
Yup, that definitely proves you're not a troll.
Lol? Yeah it's DEFINITELY only 2 members. But I don't hate you. You just annoy me.
LOL! I'm sorry this can't be ignored.
You: You can't disprove anything. Therefor it's real.
LinkX: So because I can't disprove Santa and pixies, they're real?
You: Of course not. They're not real. Where did you get that from? LOL!
Yeah you get the point.
Yeah, we're definitely the ones making a fool out of ourselves.
I've never called anyone's argument bullshit. No one on this forum is more annoyed by me than you and LinkX, and it just so happens that 95% of the forum dislikes you two, and 95% of the forum practically worships me. Again, the world isn't at fault, you are. Realize that already.
God IS the only answer when it comes to that specific thing that I mentioned. It's been more than 2000 years, and they still can't explain how the world/universe came to be. The big bang theory isn't even a concrete one. Good luck getting passed the initial step, and finding out with irrefutable scientific evidence the infinite steps that came before it.
The only reason I'm not a moderator is because we don't need one. I can be a dick and tell Sixen to give me mod powers else I'll leave, and he more than likely would, because I'm not nearly as erratic as I once was. There's no need for more people with mod powers. There's a need for a community manager. If I'm such a bad member, my bans wouldn't be almost automatically lifted, and I wouldn't be on the staff list.
Religion doesn't MAKE you believe in it. God isn't FORCING you to believe in him. It's simply put. Don't worship God, you go to hell. You're free not to believe that. You're free to believe that. I'm not making you believe what I believe, I'm simply stating it. If you think it's a salesman technique, be my guest. I don't.
I can threaten you. I'm a staff member. You weren't. Good point you made there, champ.
Lol@you completely not getting my point. The Transformers aren't real because known people are behind their creation. Art is not real because there are known HUMAN artists behind them. Pixies are not real because known people created them. Can you please tell me which people, or group of people, created the idea of a divine entity ruling over the world? No, you can't. Ask the guy who created Charizard, and he'll tell you that he created him and that he's not real. That's the absolute difference. If you want to go ahead and tell me that this specific point that I'm making is funny, or doesn't make sense. Go ahead. You'll only be making a fool of yourself. It's completely logical and completely valid, yet you can't grasp that because you wet yourself when LinkX suggested that argument, and I just butchered it to pieces.
Yeah, you are. More than one user has given you irrefutable proof that what you're saying is utter nonsense, yet you don't seem to want to give it a rest and say "hmm, maybe you have a point there!".
Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions
For example, Jeffery Dahmer or w/e his name was was a serial killer who ate the people he killed... Now, he was "converted" in prison before his execution, I'm sure his bad outweighs his good, but if he truly actually did repent and so forth do you think he will go to heaven?
unzip, strip, touch, finger, grep, mount, fsck, more, yes, fsck, fsck, fsck, umount, sleep
Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions
But they are also explained in the Bible right away. One only needs to read it to find that out.
You know, the Son of Sam had an actual real conversion while in prison. He did radio interviews and even said that he deserved what he was getting. He came to terms with the fact that he was completely wrong for his actions and deserved his punishment. But it didn't bother him because he said that he was going to heaven. Now, I lived in Milwaukee when the things with Dahmer went on. As for his "conversion", the actual chances of him having a real conversion are, IMO, slim to none. To say he didn't have one is not up to me. He was killed shortly after he was taken to the max security prison. If his conversion was real then yes, he would go to heaven. Look at the thief on the cross next to Jesus. Prime example of a conversion while imprisoned. Hell, he was dying on a cross! Asked Jesus to remember him when he got to his Kingdom, Jesus' response was "Today, you will be with me in Paradise". True conversion does happen, and can happen no matter what you have done in your life.
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Where is it confirmed that the Ten Commandments from Moses only apply to Israelites? Sure it is believed that it was given to Moses by God for the sake of how to guide his people (the Israelites) but it does not confirm that this only applied to said people when this principle applied worldwide amongst the course of 2K years.
Oh no no no. You misunderstand what I say. I don't mean the Ten Commandments are only for Isrealites. (I don't think they are for anything, but that's beside the point. Haha.) The Hebrew word used in the Ten Commandments for Murder was ratsakh. If I am not mistaken, it has two definitions, one is illegal murder (ie not putting someone to death ala the court system) and killing an Israelite. However, when it was originally translated to English, they used murder to replace ratsakh.
And I hope I spelled that right...
"retsakh" means killing someone with the intention to do it. Murder, yes. About the second defenition, im not sure, i never heard of another meaning for this word, i even ried checking but i couldnt find anything. "ratsakh" is murdered in the past. i dont understand how the translation is wrong? or is it?
I'll see if I can't find it after work today. Just remind me.
Are you sure about that? I found a hebrew bible lexicon or however you call it. anyway under the verb "retsakh" i could only find one meaning. It is explained what different punishments a man would get if he murdered on purpose or by accident. Im interested in these kind of things so if you can find a link it would be nice.
Edit: Oh and it is made clear that in the 10 commandments it says "lo tertsakh" which means do not murder. It is considered a murder if a man is killed without trial or court.
(See, I can admit I am wrong. )
Good for you, I'm still waiting for Irrational's rebuttal.
I don't know much about the old testament, but did this book address this concern? What was the ancient peoples' beliefs regarding Christianity?