I only want to know one thing before I comment any further - are you basing your assumptions on your knowledge of the books you've read or are you just throwing this out into the air?
I'm basing it on the fact that any right minded person agrees that a place of order and peace, where you don't bother someone who doesn't bother you, is to be desired over a place filled with torment and chaos.
I'm basing it on the fact that any right minded person agrees that a place of order and peace, where you don't bother someone who doesn't bother you, is to be desired over a place filled with torment and chaos.
It's not that simple.
We have almost none idea of how Heaven is and how angels think. Any though about those stuff is merely baseless speculation.
What in have in terms of fact is D1 and D2 storyline, D3 recent lore and the Sin War trilogy. At D1 and D2 we have almost no contact with Heavens because Tyreal is a rebel angel.And in the Sin War trilogy the picture of Heaven is that they are potential enemies of Sanctuary just like Hell is. This is putted VERY clear in the damn books, if you didn't read then and don't want to believe what people read there - you need a bit more of lore in your brain.
And I'm pretty sure that is not me and Xerj who are basing our arguments in speculation of what we want or not in D3's plot. You are the one doing it because you simply want believe that Heaven are the good guys without even the minimun lore basement.
I'm basing it on the fact that any right minded person agrees that a place of order and peace, where you don't bother someone who doesn't bother you, is to be desired over a place filled with torment and chaos.
Just so you know, we're talking about Heaven in the diablo universe, not Heaven as seen by religion.
Heaven in diablo doesn't really care if Sanctuary is there or not, and some in heaven wish it to be completely destroyed.
Read up on some of the lore.
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Quote from "Sixen" »
"One in every 10 million people can potentially have a headache from this pill." God forbid she is the 0.000000001% of having a headache.
I'm basing it on the fact that any right minded person agrees that a place of order and peace, where you don't bother someone who doesn't bother you, is to be desired over a place filled with torment and chaos.
I'm not even going to dignify you with a decent comment.
It's not that simple.
We have almost none idea of how Heaven is and how angels think. Any though about those stuff is merely baseless speculation.
What in have in terms of fact is D1 and D2 storyline, D3 recent lore and the Sin War trilogy. At D1 and D2 we have almost no contact with Heavens because Tyreal is a rebel angel.And in the Sin War trilogy the picture of Heaven is that they are potential enemies of Sanctuary just like Hell is. This is putted VERY clear in the damn books, if you didn't read then and don't want to believe what people read there - you need a bit more of lore in your brain.
And I'm pretty sure that is not me and Xerj who are basing our arguments in speculation of what we want or not in D3's plot. You are the one doing it because you simply want believe that Heaven are the good guys without even the minimun lore
basement.
All we need to know is why they do what they do, which is common knowledge from the D storylines and from exerpts taken from the books, in which everything the angels do is a reaction (talking about the consensus, not including those like Inarius). Their intent is to deal with any threats against them, which in turn is a threat to the establishment of order and structure. The reason Sanctuary is a target in question for them is because people (Nephalem) have the potential to be more powerful than both angel and demon, without any preset dedication to either side, meaning there is potential for powerful, self interested only, and corruptive people. So you got one part of heaven that wants to eliminate the whole batch to get rid of the potential "bad apples", and one side that wants to perserve the good ones. Sorry for us that we're on the pointy end side of this debate. Again, you can keep tapdancing around the "means" but its the understanding of the "ends" or the end result that they are trying to achieve that showcases what their nature is. This is totally different from a being that only thirsts for power and chaos.
And the irony here is that you claim that I have a biased view of what's "good" and "evil", when you and the others are judging what you claim to be "good" or "evil" purely based on who is currently either "friend" or "foe".
Quote from Zhar »
Just so you know, we're talking about Heaven in the diablo universe, not Heaven as seen by religion.
Heaven in diablo doesn't really care if Sanctuary is there or not, and some in heaven wish it to be completely destroyed.
Read up on some of the lore.
Which is the same Heaven I'm talking about. And like I stated above, the reason so many in Heaven aren't too happy with Sanctuary being in existence, is because of all the potential threats it contains.
Quote from Xerj »
I'm not even going to dignify you with a decent comment.
Instead of the repetitive "Go read the books" response, why don't you use the knowledge you have from these stories to counter my arguments. You're almost making it look like you can't.
Despite what some of you seem to assume, my position comes from the FACT that one entity leads to a "positive" atmosphere, while the other leads to a "negative" one. It can be seen just by reading exerpts describing Heaven in the D universe as a place where you can hear "children laughing, and people singing", which in FACT details a positive, euphoric atmosphere. Being that Heaven is the realm that exudes the very nature and desired atmosphere of that of the angels, its obvious that their ''ends'' in which they aim to achieve is a positive one, making them totally different to that of demons.
To sum it up,the difference is that if there is a particular being deemed to be harmless, the angels will leave it alone because it doesn't pose any threat to them, while a demon most likely would see it as usless then would want to dispose of it, yet if there is an entity that possesses the potential to be a powerful threat, the angels would want to have it dealt with as they see fit, while demons would want to control it and use it for their purposes alone.
If the intentions of angels and demons were absolutely clear, then this thread wouldn't even exist.
This thread only exist because the sin war trilogy is unpopular even among the diablo fans. And you are right, their intention is not absolutly clear - thats why is irrelevant to discuss it, unless you are discussing it in a speculative scenarium wich is not this thread case. The question is "CAN Heaven be a enemy in D3?", it's not speculation, it's a possibility, and yes it's damn possible.
@Elight: And i'm pretty tired of discussing this ... I've used all my arguments back there and i will not repeat then. I'm not talking about what is "good" and "evil". I never ever mentioned it in my posts.
The Heaven you are talking about are simply not pictured in any recent/relevant lore canon. So i have no reason of why Heaven should be a positive energy plane. It is putted several time that Heaven is bounded to "order" - not to "good" or a positive plane of pure delight and joy. I have already give the explantion of why Heaven is a potential threat in my preview posts, read then or (even better) read the sin war trilogy.
This thread only exist because the sin war trilogy is unpopular even among the diablo fans. And you are right, their intention is not absolutly clear - thats why is irrelevant to discuss it, unless you are discussing it in a speculative scenarium wich is not this thread case. The question is "CAN Heaven be a enemy in D3?", it's not speculation, it's a possibility, and yes it's damn possible.
@Elight: And i'm pretty tired of discussing this ... I've used all my arguments back there and i will not repeat then. I'm not talking about what is "good" and "evil". I never ever mentioned it in my posts.
The Heaven you are talking about are simply not pictured in any recent/relevant lore canon. So i have no reason of why Heaven should be a positive energy plane. It is putted several time that Heaven is bounded to "order" - not to "good" or a positive plane of pure delight and joy. I have already give the explantion of why Heaven is a potential threat in my preview posts, read then or (even better) read the sin war trilogy.
In that, I was addressing those who claim that there is no difference between angel and demon except for their looks, in which your stance seemed to be somewhat supportive of.
And again, you don't need to be a scholar in all of the books to gain an understanding of why they do what they do. Through the storyline and some of the lore which can be found just about anywhere on the net, it is shown that they are of a defensive nature. Pose no threat, and they wish you no harm. That makes them alot better than the other type in my book.
The problem is that some have no defensive nature, pose threat and wish harm to sanctuary. The conflict between Heaven and Hell are bilateral - noone knows who started it and both sides have no plans of stop the war, they both are destined to fight for all eternity.
You can make big point by posting the site were angels are acknowledge as the good guys of the story.
All we need to know is why they do what they do, which is common knowledge from the D storylines and from exerpts taken from the books, in which everything the angels do is a reaction (talking about the consensus, not including those like Inarius). Their intent is to deal with any threats against them, which in turn is a threat to the establishment of order and structure. The reason Sanctuary is a target in question for them is because people (Nephalem) have the potential to be more powerful than both angel and demon, without any preset dedication to either side, meaning there is potential for powerful, self interested only, and corruptive people. So you got one part of heaven that wants to eliminate the whole batch to get rid of the potential "bad apples", and one side that wants to perserve the good ones. Sorry for us that we're on the pointy end side of this debate. Again, you can keep tapdancing around the "means" but its the understanding of the "ends" or the end result that they are trying to achieve that showcases what their nature is. This is totally different from a being that only thirsts for power and chaos.
And the irony here is that you claim that I have a biased view of what's "good" and "evil", when you and the others are judging what you claim to be "good" or "evil" purely based on who is currently either "friend" or "foe".
Which is the same Heaven I'm talking about. And like I stated above, the reason so many in Heaven aren't too happy with Sanctuary being in existence, is because of all the potential threats it contains.
Instead of the repetitive "Go read the books" response, why don't you use the knowledge you have from these stories to counter my arguments. You're almost making it look like you can't.
Despite what some of you seem to assume, my position comes from the FACT that one entity leads to a "positive" atmosphere, while the other leads to a "negative" one. It can be seen just by reading exerpts describing Heaven in the D universe as a place where you can hear "children laughing, and people singing", which in FACT details a positive, euphoric atmosphere. Being that Heaven is the realm that exudes the very nature and desired atmosphere of that of the angels, its obvious that their ''ends'' in which they aim to achieve is a positive one, making them totally different to that of demons.
To sum it up,the difference is that if there is a particular being deemed to be harmless, the angels will leave it alone because it doesn't pose any threat to them, while a demon most likely would see it as usless then would want to dispose of it, yet if there is an entity that possesses the potential to be a powerful threat, the angels would want to have it dealt with as they see fit, while demons would want to control it and use it for their purposes alone.
Obvious difference between the two.
Allright - I'll counter your so called "arguments" (though you argue with no basis):
All we need to know is why they do what they do, which is common knowledge from the D storylines and from exerpts taken from the books, in which everything the angels do is a reaction - where exactly does it say that everything the angels do is a reaction? As far as I know, they are an active side in a war, just as the demons are. The reasons to the war are unknown.
Their intent is to deal with any threats against them, which in turn is a threat to the establishment of order and structure - speculations. Their reasons may be completely different, and much more malevolent.
So you got one part of heaven that wants to eliminate the whole batch to get rid of the potential "bad apples", and one side that wants to perserve the good ones. - Not quite. You got one part of heaven that wants to eliminate everything that is not angelic in nature, and another part of heaven that got tired of it, ran away, created a race that is stronger than themselves and now want to control/kill it. Tyrael is an exception.
This is totally different from a being that only thirsts for power and chaos. - Riiight... they strive for power and order. Same thing to those with less power than them.
Instead of the repetitive "Go read the books" response, why don't you use the knowledge you have from these stories to counter my arguments. You're almost making it look like you can't. - you see, the thing is, this is a thread which bases upon the diablo lore. Most of the lore is... you guessed it... in the books. Arguing about the lore without knowing it is like... well... stupid. Sorry, it is.
It's not that I can't counter your arguments, but you'll just make up new ones. You see, if you'll read the sin war trilogy, where (and I say this with no attempt to patronize you) the powers of heaven really really really are presented just as bad as the forces of hell, you'll understand what I'm talking about.
But you ofcourse don't want to read the books. You played the games, saw the nice Tyrael, and think you know all there is to know about the lore. Maybe you've even read a few wikis.
Well, there's more to that in the diablo universe. And I know that I could be a bit nicer telling you this but - I mean... you're arguing about a topic which you don't know and then tell everyone that just cause you don't know it and they don't explain it to you then it probably makes you right.
Get over yourself and go read the god damn books. People worked hard to write them, and blizzard worked hard to create a unique fantasy world with them. Where there are no "good guys" and "bad guys", but where there is an underdog (humanity) fighting off two bullies against all odds.
Jeesh, people like you are like those people who read about sport results in the papers and then say they've seen the game.
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~ All of us live in a cage, few of us see it. (S.F.) ~
1. If either Heaven or Hell won and let us survive, would the humans prefer to have angelic or demonic leaders?
I really don't know the answer of this because I don't know the deep nature of Nephalem, so it is possible that it would be 50/50 on both sides. If that is the case, then both sides are indeed equally evil/good, and none is fighting for a better cause than the other. This is quite possible because the fight between Heaven and Hell is supposed to be zen, it is eternal, with no side stronger than the other. But if the humans would have a happier life with one of the sides over the other, then one of the sides fights for a better cause than the other (from a human point of view), and that side would then be "better" than the other for most humans.
2. Lets say that the humans gets strong enough to defend themselves from angels and demons, then would we be able to beat both sides?
This is in my opinion the only thing that makes Heaven and Hell use resources on us when they are in a war. And if the humans are starting to defeat their attackers, what would they then do to stay alive? Would they team up with angels/demons? Ally with us (not permanently)? Or accept defeat?
The next question isn't really about lore, but I'll ask anyway.
3. The Prime Evils had quite a few (ok, i got no idea of how many they are) "loyal" demons that followed them into Sanctuary instead of accepting Azmodan and Belial as their new leaders. Those demons were killed by us in D1 and D2. Heaven never sent soldiers into Sanctuary during this time, wouldn't that mean that Hell used more resources on Sanctuary than Heaven did? And in turn, wouldn't it mean that Heaven should have had a good opportunity to strike back against the demons.
3. Followup: So Hell is obviously sending alot (still don't know the full size of thier army) of demons into Sanctuary, this is seen in the trailer. Heaven is as far as we can see, not taking part in the war between humans and demons. Is this a tactical move that will remain? Are they making humans fight against demons by not doing anything?
I see this as very possible. The demons are usng the tactic of enslaving us and using our powers against Heaven, and the angels are taking that opportunity to attack Hell while they are fighting humans. It would make humans see demons as a threat, and not angels. And it means that Hell now has double trouble. But if this is the case, I'm not sure if it will remain as their tactic (now when the worldstone is gone). If humans do defeat demons, then the angels has to act quickly, or otherwise they might never achieve the 100% angelic world they want. If demons defeats humans, then the angels has a even bigger problem.
Wow - some really good questions there Emil.
Well... these are my opinions atleast for those questions:
1) If either Heaven or Hell won and let us survive, would the humans prefer to have angelic or demonic leaders?
I think that to correctly answer that we must realize that humans will never have a single opinion on this matter. Some will prefer heavenly rulers, some will work with the demons to further their own power and some will rebel against both sides and say that humanity should govern itself.
Thus I'm pretty confident there will never be a united front in favor of one side or the other.
2) Lets say that the humans gets strong enough to defend themselves from angels and demons, then would we be able to beat both sides?
I think so. It is clearly stated that the nephalem (I always misspell their name) are stronger than both the demons and the angels.
3) Prime Evils had quite a few (ok, i got no idea of how many they are) "loyal" demons that followed them into Sanctuary instead of accepting Azmodan and Belial as their new leaders. Those demons were killed by us in D1 and D2. Heaven never sent soldiers into Sanctuary during this time, wouldn't that mean that Hell used more resources on Sanctuary than Heaven did? And in turn, wouldn't it mean that Heaven should have had a good opportunity to strike back against the demons.
That's not really correct to be honest. The demons who were killed by the heroes in D1 and D2 were but a fraction of diablos (and his brothers in D2) followers who were summoned by them to sanctuary, or native sanctuary denizens corrupted by his presense. Well... act IV excluded, that when we actually invade hell, where the demons live.
In the beginning, Inarius himself would dwell in Sanctuary and kept whining about how this world is his and that he will destroy it if the demons will try to take it away from him (really, he did whine a lot in the books).
So you could say that while heaven did not send soldiers, their leader was living here in person, bending mortals to his will (there was a "soul race" between him and the church of the prime evils to who gets more mortals to himself).
And as I said, hell also does not have a permanent force of demons on sanctuary. They all live in hells, except when summoned by either mortals or the more powerfull demons. And even then they have to play by some sort of rules (for example, for a certain spell a representitive of each of the three prime evil armies HAD to be present or the spell would fail).
That's... pretty much it.
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~ All of us live in a cage, few of us see it. (S.F.) ~
Ok, but I had this followup question. If Hell attacks Sanctuary and Heaven not, wouldn't that mean that Hell will lose forces quicker than Heaven? And if Hell never manage to beat the humans, would that mean that Heaven wins unless we take part in the war between them?
But there is one more question that keeps messing with this theory.
The Prime Evils existed only in their soulstones, they contained their souls (with Baal as a exception). Perhaps someone answered this question before, but what happens to the soul when the stone is destroyed? If the soul doesn't "die", then it should be able to be summoned into another body. And if the other demons are alike, then the demons that dies on the battlefield can be summoned into new bodies. Is this a reason to why the battle can last forever?
Those are good questions, and I'm not certain I can really answer them - but I'll write my own thoughts on the subject.
About the question about the numbers of hell being declining, I honestly have no idea as to what to say to that. Logic would say you are right, but then again, who knows how fast they reproduce and what percentage of them were slain.
Also, in the books there are humans who gave their life to become first grade demon warriors (don't remember their names), and there was quite an army of them.
Also remember that there are also undead and that powerfull demons have the power to corrupt creatures of low will around them.
About the soul stones, well, not that much is known about them, but there are a few theories.
There is a wide theory that says that the exile of the prime evils by the lesser evils, and the binding of them to the soul stones is but a ruse made by the prime evil themselves in order for them to slip onto sanctuary without railing the entire forces of heaven onto full blown charge against them.
It's like a silent invasion no one knows is happening.
I don't think honestly that the lesser evils would have enough power to overthrone the three, but again, it's only a theory.
And look at what they have accomplished since (true, they have been sort of stopped by the players of D1 and D2 but... then again... that's the whole point of the storyline).
Diablo had turned one of the great kings of men into a madman, made his knights into his own loyal and some of his most powerfull soldiers (death knights), ignited a war between two kingdoms and took control of the kings son. All while he was inside his soulstone.
Baal took control of one of the most powerful human mages (Tal Rasha). Sure, he was imprisoned for a while, but I'm sure it's only a short stretch of time for an immortal being.
Mephisto, the most powerfull of the three, had turned the cathedral of light (THE FREAKING CATHEDRAL OF LIGHT) into his own puppets, and their council into minor images of himself (he gave them shards of his soulstone to be inserted in them, and as such they sort of became his mini-mes).
And they did all this without calling forth the power of the burning hells.
Oh... and did I mention that they have corrupted the world stone?
Also, so far no one knows what happens to them when you smash their soulstones. I bet they didn't really perish.
All those questions I bet will be answered in either D3 or the future novels.
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~ All of us live in a cage, few of us see it. (S.F.) ~
But since it is likely that they are immortal and that their souls are permanent, does that apply to the other demons? The minions that are used as soldiers? Because that would be a serious issue when humans are not
Well, we're not really sure wether humans in their true form are mortal... they could be just as immortal as angels and demons when they have their true powers.
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~ All of us live in a cage, few of us see it. (S.F.) ~
The power degeneration isn't castable again right? It was Inarius, the "dad" of all humans, that made the spell, so it is possible that he and Lilith is the only ones that can reduce the powers of the humans.
So that means that reducing the powers of humans are no longer possible. So if the humans gets to the level of immortality, then they would be that forever.
Cool
Actually - both Lilith and Inarius are still out there... somewhere...
So who knows
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~ All of us live in a cage, few of us see it. (S.F.) ~
where exactly does it say that everything the angels do is a reaction? As far as I know, they are an active side in a war, just as the demons are. The reasons to the war are unknown.
It's pretty obvious from excerpts taken from the books (yeah I've read some) that the angels war against demons because of their relentles, self interest only, and chaotic nature. the war is an everlasting reaction to these ever lusting, nonstop, offensive beings.
Quote from "Xerj" »
speculations. Their reasons may be completely different, and much more malevolent.
Though they have not shown any case of committing malevelont acts,. Again, give me some specific examples using your 'knowledge in lore' besides essentially saying, "I've read the books so this is why this is true". Show me a situation where the angels attacked a being just because....or where they have taken action against someone or something without the reason being illustrated through conversation of some type.
Quote from "Xerj" »
Not quite. You got one part of heaven that wants to eliminate everything that is not angelic in nature, and another part of heaven that got tired of it, ran away, created a race that is stronger than themselves and now want to control/kill it. Tyrael is an exception.
But why is that part of Heaven so focused on wanting to destroy the Nephalem and Sanctuary? Because they are part demonic blood and could potentially possess the same corruptive nature. And I already stated that Inarius is an exclusion because he is not part of the consensus.
Quote from "Xerj" »
Riiight... they strive for power and order. Same thing to those with less power than them.
How is acting against potential corruptive threats "striving for power"?
Quote from Xerj »
you see, the thing is, this is a thread which bases upon the diablo lore. Most of the lore is... you guessed it... in the books. Arguing about the lore without knowing it is like... well... stupid. Sorry, it is.
It's not that I can't counter your arguments, but you'll just make up new ones. You see, if you'll read the sin war trilogy, where (and I say this with no attempt to patronize you) the powers of heaven really really really are presented just as bad as the forces of hell, you'll understand what I'm talking about.
But you ofcourse don't want to read the books. You played the games, saw the nice Tyrael, and think you know all there is to know about the lore. Maybe you've even read a few wikis.
Well, there's more to that in the diablo universe. And I know that I could be a bit nicer telling you this but - I mean... you're arguing about a topic which you don't know and then tell everyone that just cause you don't know it and they don't explain it to you then it probably makes you right.
Get over yourself and go read the god damn books. People worked hard to write them, and blizzard worked hard to create a unique fantasy world with them. Where there are no "good guys" and "bad guys", but where there is an underdog (humanity) fighting off two bullies against all odds.
Jeesh, people like you are like those people who read about sport results in the papers and then say they've seen the game.
Like I keep stating, you don't have to know every bit of lore to gain an understanding of what the angels nature is. It is shown through plenty of dialogue that their actions are reactions to potential or immediate threats (the consensus). But you have to have an independent perspective instead of that of seemingly an inhabitant of Sanctuary to see that.
Though they have not shown any case of committing malevelont acts,. Again, give me some specific examples using your 'knowledge in lore' besides essentially saying, "I've read the books so this is why this is true". Show me a situation where the angels attacked a being just because....or where they have taken action against someone or something without the reason being illustrated through conversation of some type.
Allrighty -
"YOU SHALL NOT TAKE FROM ME SANCTUARY, Inarius reprimanded her memory. I WILL NOT LET YOU AGAIN DESTROY MY DREAM! SANCTUARY AND ALL IT CONTAINS WILL NOT BE YOURS, EVEN IF I MUST DESTROY IT MYSELF...AS IS MY RIGHT...
This is a direct copy/paste from the sin war trilogy. This is Inarius talking to himself in front of the mirror, imagining he is talking to Lilith.
Now tell me the truth, does that like the good guy to you?
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~ All of us live in a cage, few of us see it. (S.F.) ~
But I am able to understand Inarius frustration. He made this Sanctuary to escape the war, and all he wants is for the humans to worship him so he can live in peace (did i get this right?). Lilith wants to use the humans as a private army, that goes against all of the things Inarius wants. But Lilith follows the chaotic nature to kill. If she can kill, with these powerful human tools, why not? Inarius wants a ordered world, a ordered world can't contain war. The opinions of each and every angel and demon can't be alike, but their inner nature is probably the same. But this is just my thoughts based on quotes by other people I could be way off now.
Thing is - Inarius did not create Sanctuary. Inarius AND Lilith made Sanctuary (together with a bunch of other demons and angels).
And they both wanted to escape the war. In fact, it is written that when Inarius approached the band of demons with whom he created Sanctuary he was surprised to see how like minded they were.
Then angels and demons fell in love, did the deed, and that's how baby humans were born.
However when they saw what they created was more powerful than them Inarius wanted to destroy them and Lilith wanted to use them.
I honestly think angels and demons in the diablo universe deserve each other
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~ All of us live in a cage, few of us see it. (S.F.) ~
That's the eternal struggle between order and chaos, good and evil, light and darkness, Yin and Yang. Nor Heaven or Hell will ever get a major footstep towards one another without losing it some time after. They?ve battled a long time and some angels and demons even got bored of it, so I don?t think it?s the human interference that will chance this conflict. Either more because the humans inherited the angel and demon side.
So I think this conflict bases more on making Sanctuary unconnected with heaven and hell for a time.
Quote from "emilemil1" »
Angels and demons are indeed pretty much meant for eachother Together they create perfect zen. The problem is that angels and demons are so different in some of their nature, even if they can share opinions, they can probably only in rare cases be so alike that they can get along in a relationship.
Imagine and angel/demon couple.
Demon baby:
"Well honey I think we need to discuss our relantionship. You never open yourself to me"
Angel guy:
"Ohhh no! That bulshit talk again about me and your hellfire mother. Just give me a beer and quit"
There's a lot of miss information in this thread regarding the lore and such.
Inarius was never the leader of angels. Angels are ruled by a council, not a single individual. Inarius was the Angiris Council's Advisor.
Not all angels want Sanctuary & humans destroyed. The council voted half in favor of letting Sanctuary exist and half for it's destruction. Malthael, believed to be the Archangel of Death, didn't vote as he believed the matter didn't concern him.
Tyrael, the Archangel of Justice, had the final and deciding vote. He was originally in favor of destroying humans. He called them abominations, but the last, self sacrificing act of the main protagonist in the Sin War books (I can't remember his name) changed Tyrael's mind. He said it himself that he once called humans abominations but that he was wrong, and so with his single vote, saved humanity from being erased.
We don't see Angels running around Sanctuary because they do not believe in interfering in the affairs of humans.
Inarius wanted humanity to worship him to fuel his narcissistic personality.
The Angiris Council made a deal with Mephisto. They would hand him the traitor Angel Inarius in exchange for Mephisto's word he would not invade Sanctuary. he cut his hand and dripped his blood in a rune to prove his oath or something along those lines. I forget exactly.
Inarius is imprisoned in Hell in a place called The Hall of Mirrors where he is chained and forced to gaze upon his misshapen self for all eternity. If I remember correctly, it was once again Tyrael who had the final say in agreeing that Mephisto could take Inarius. I may be mistaken, but I remember something along those lines from the last book in the Sin War.
Humans, particularly Necromancers, consider both Heaven and Hell a threat because both sides wish to use humanity for their own ends. Necromancers believe in balance. In that there is no good without evil. That good must triumph over evil but not erase it, or even good will eventually turn on itself. They basically fight for humanity to govern itself and not be controlled by either side.
Tyrael seems to be a bit of an enigma amongst angels. He seems to genuinely care for humanity and has directly influenced the outcome of major events by his actions in helping humanity against hell. He has done so on many occasions in direct opposition of the will of the Angiris Council.
The worldstone was created to keep the power of the Nephalem (humans) in check and to diminish it. Each subsequent generation of humans born had less and less of their Nephalem birthright powers to the point that it has been erased from the current human population in Sanctuary. It's never made clear if it's permanently gone, but from the way it's worded, I believe it suggests that it is. World stone or not, humanity has had their powers taken away from them slowly over many generations because of the stone.
I forget what else in the lore was a bit conflicted in this thread. I'll read it further and see what else comes up.
I'm basing it on the fact that any right minded person agrees that a place of order and peace, where you don't bother someone who doesn't bother you, is to be desired over a place filled with torment and chaos.
It's not that simple.
We have almost none idea of how Heaven is and how angels think. Any though about those stuff is merely baseless speculation.
What in have in terms of fact is D1 and D2 storyline, D3 recent lore and the Sin War trilogy. At D1 and D2 we have almost no contact with Heavens because Tyreal is a rebel angel.And in the Sin War trilogy the picture of Heaven is that they are potential enemies of Sanctuary just like Hell is. This is putted VERY clear in the damn books, if you didn't read then and don't want to believe what people read there - you need a bit more of lore in your brain.
And I'm pretty sure that is not me and Xerj who are basing our arguments in speculation of what we want or not in D3's plot. You are the one doing it because you simply want believe that Heaven are the good guys without even the minimun lore basement.
Just so you know, we're talking about Heaven in the diablo universe, not Heaven as seen by religion.
Heaven in diablo doesn't really care if Sanctuary is there or not, and some in heaven wish it to be completely destroyed.
Read up on some of the lore.
I'm not even going to dignify you with a decent comment.
Go read the books.
(Must... hold... back... from... name... calling.)
All we need to know is why they do what they do, which is common knowledge from the D storylines and from exerpts taken from the books, in which everything the angels do is a reaction (talking about the consensus, not including those like Inarius). Their intent is to deal with any threats against them, which in turn is a threat to the establishment of order and structure. The reason Sanctuary is a target in question for them is because people (Nephalem) have the potential to be more powerful than both angel and demon, without any preset dedication to either side, meaning there is potential for powerful, self interested only, and corruptive people. So you got one part of heaven that wants to eliminate the whole batch to get rid of the potential "bad apples", and one side that wants to perserve the good ones. Sorry for us that we're on the pointy end side of this debate. Again, you can keep tapdancing around the "means" but its the understanding of the "ends" or the end result that they are trying to achieve that showcases what their nature is. This is totally different from a being that only thirsts for power and chaos.
And the irony here is that you claim that I have a biased view of what's "good" and "evil", when you and the others are judging what you claim to be "good" or "evil" purely based on who is currently either "friend" or "foe".
Which is the same Heaven I'm talking about. And like I stated above, the reason so many in Heaven aren't too happy with Sanctuary being in existence, is because of all the potential threats it contains.
Instead of the repetitive "Go read the books" response, why don't you use the knowledge you have from these stories to counter my arguments. You're almost making it look like you can't.
Despite what some of you seem to assume, my position comes from the FACT that one entity leads to a "positive" atmosphere, while the other leads to a "negative" one. It can be seen just by reading exerpts describing Heaven in the D universe as a place where you can hear "children laughing, and people singing", which in FACT details a positive, euphoric atmosphere. Being that Heaven is the realm that exudes the very nature and desired atmosphere of that of the angels, its obvious that their ''ends'' in which they aim to achieve is a positive one, making them totally different to that of demons.
To sum it up,the difference is that if there is a particular being deemed to be harmless, the angels will leave it alone because it doesn't pose any threat to them, while a demon most likely would see it as usless then would want to dispose of it, yet if there is an entity that possesses the potential to be a powerful threat, the angels would want to have it dealt with as they see fit, while demons would want to control it and use it for their purposes alone.
Obvious difference between the two.
This thread only exist because the sin war trilogy is unpopular even among the diablo fans. And you are right, their intention is not absolutly clear - thats why is irrelevant to discuss it, unless you are discussing it in a speculative scenarium wich is not this thread case. The question is "CAN Heaven be a enemy in D3?", it's not speculation, it's a possibility, and yes it's damn possible.
@Elight: And i'm pretty tired of discussing this ... I've used all my arguments back there and i will not repeat then. I'm not talking about what is "good" and "evil". I never ever mentioned it in my posts.
The Heaven you are talking about are simply not pictured in any recent/relevant lore canon. So i have no reason of why Heaven should be a positive energy plane. It is putted several time that Heaven is bounded to "order" - not to "good" or a positive plane of pure delight and joy. I have already give the explantion of why Heaven is a potential threat in my preview posts, read then or (even better) read the sin war trilogy.
In that, I was addressing those who claim that there is no difference between angel and demon except for their looks, in which your stance seemed to be somewhat supportive of.
And again, you don't need to be a scholar in all of the books to gain an understanding of why they do what they do. Through the storyline and some of the lore which can be found just about anywhere on the net, it is shown that they are of a defensive nature. Pose no threat, and they wish you no harm. That makes them alot better than the other type in my book.
You can make big point by posting the site were angels are acknowledge as the good guys of the story.
Allright - I'll counter your so called "arguments" (though you argue with no basis):
All we need to know is why they do what they do, which is common knowledge from the D storylines and from exerpts taken from the books, in which everything the angels do is a reaction - where exactly does it say that everything the angels do is a reaction? As far as I know, they are an active side in a war, just as the demons are. The reasons to the war are unknown.
Their intent is to deal with any threats against them, which in turn is a threat to the establishment of order and structure - speculations. Their reasons may be completely different, and much more malevolent.
So you got one part of heaven that wants to eliminate the whole batch to get rid of the potential "bad apples", and one side that wants to perserve the good ones. - Not quite. You got one part of heaven that wants to eliminate everything that is not angelic in nature, and another part of heaven that got tired of it, ran away, created a race that is stronger than themselves and now want to control/kill it. Tyrael is an exception.
This is totally different from a being that only thirsts for power and chaos. - Riiight... they strive for power and order. Same thing to those with less power than them.
Instead of the repetitive "Go read the books" response, why don't you use the knowledge you have from these stories to counter my arguments. You're almost making it look like you can't. - you see, the thing is, this is a thread which bases upon the diablo lore. Most of the lore is... you guessed it... in the books. Arguing about the lore without knowing it is like... well... stupid. Sorry, it is.
It's not that I can't counter your arguments, but you'll just make up new ones. You see, if you'll read the sin war trilogy, where (and I say this with no attempt to patronize you) the powers of heaven really really really are presented just as bad as the forces of hell, you'll understand what I'm talking about.
But you ofcourse don't want to read the books. You played the games, saw the nice Tyrael, and think you know all there is to know about the lore. Maybe you've even read a few wikis.
Well, there's more to that in the diablo universe. And I know that I could be a bit nicer telling you this but - I mean... you're arguing about a topic which you don't know and then tell everyone that just cause you don't know it and they don't explain it to you then it probably makes you right.
Get over yourself and go read the god damn books. People worked hard to write them, and blizzard worked hard to create a unique fantasy world with them. Where there are no "good guys" and "bad guys", but where there is an underdog (humanity) fighting off two bullies against all odds.
Jeesh, people like you are like those people who read about sport results in the papers and then say they've seen the game.
Wow - some really good questions there Emil.
Well... these are my opinions atleast for those questions:
1) If either Heaven or Hell won and let us survive, would the humans prefer to have angelic or demonic leaders?
I think that to correctly answer that we must realize that humans will never have a single opinion on this matter. Some will prefer heavenly rulers, some will work with the demons to further their own power and some will rebel against both sides and say that humanity should govern itself.
Thus I'm pretty confident there will never be a united front in favor of one side or the other.
2) Lets say that the humans gets strong enough to defend themselves from angels and demons, then would we be able to beat both sides?
I think so. It is clearly stated that the nephalem (I always misspell their name) are stronger than both the demons and the angels.
3) Prime Evils had quite a few (ok, i got no idea of how many they are) "loyal" demons that followed them into Sanctuary instead of accepting Azmodan and Belial as their new leaders. Those demons were killed by us in D1 and D2. Heaven never sent soldiers into Sanctuary during this time, wouldn't that mean that Hell used more resources on Sanctuary than Heaven did? And in turn, wouldn't it mean that Heaven should have had a good opportunity to strike back against the demons.
That's not really correct to be honest. The demons who were killed by the heroes in D1 and D2 were but a fraction of diablos (and his brothers in D2) followers who were summoned by them to sanctuary, or native sanctuary denizens corrupted by his presense. Well... act IV excluded, that when we actually invade hell, where the demons live.
In the beginning, Inarius himself would dwell in Sanctuary and kept whining about how this world is his and that he will destroy it if the demons will try to take it away from him (really, he did whine a lot in the books).
So you could say that while heaven did not send soldiers, their leader was living here in person, bending mortals to his will (there was a "soul race" between him and the church of the prime evils to who gets more mortals to himself).
And as I said, hell also does not have a permanent force of demons on sanctuary. They all live in hells, except when summoned by either mortals or the more powerfull demons. And even then they have to play by some sort of rules (for example, for a certain spell a representitive of each of the three prime evil armies HAD to be present or the spell would fail).
That's... pretty much it.
Those are good questions, and I'm not certain I can really answer them - but I'll write my own thoughts on the subject.
About the question about the numbers of hell being declining, I honestly have no idea as to what to say to that. Logic would say you are right, but then again, who knows how fast they reproduce and what percentage of them were slain.
Also, in the books there are humans who gave their life to become first grade demon warriors (don't remember their names), and there was quite an army of them.
Also remember that there are also undead and that powerfull demons have the power to corrupt creatures of low will around them.
About the soul stones, well, not that much is known about them, but there are a few theories.
There is a wide theory that says that the exile of the prime evils by the lesser evils, and the binding of them to the soul stones is but a ruse made by the prime evil themselves in order for them to slip onto sanctuary without railing the entire forces of heaven onto full blown charge against them.
It's like a silent invasion no one knows is happening.
I don't think honestly that the lesser evils would have enough power to overthrone the three, but again, it's only a theory.
And look at what they have accomplished since (true, they have been sort of stopped by the players of D1 and D2 but... then again... that's the whole point of the storyline).
Diablo had turned one of the great kings of men into a madman, made his knights into his own loyal and some of his most powerfull soldiers (death knights), ignited a war between two kingdoms and took control of the kings son. All while he was inside his soulstone.
Baal took control of one of the most powerful human mages (Tal Rasha). Sure, he was imprisoned for a while, but I'm sure it's only a short stretch of time for an immortal being.
Mephisto, the most powerfull of the three, had turned the cathedral of light (THE FREAKING CATHEDRAL OF LIGHT) into his own puppets, and their council into minor images of himself (he gave them shards of his soulstone to be inserted in them, and as such they sort of became his mini-mes).
And they did all this without calling forth the power of the burning hells.
Oh... and did I mention that they have corrupted the world stone?
Also, so far no one knows what happens to them when you smash their soulstones. I bet they didn't really perish.
All those questions I bet will be answered in either D3 or the future novels.
Well, we're not really sure wether humans in their true form are mortal... they could be just as immortal as angels and demons when they have their true powers.
Actually - both Lilith and Inarius are still out there... somewhere...
So who knows
It's pretty obvious from excerpts taken from the books (yeah I've read some) that the angels war against demons because of their relentles, self interest only, and chaotic nature. the war is an everlasting reaction to these ever lusting, nonstop, offensive beings.
Though they have not shown any case of committing malevelont acts,. Again, give me some specific examples using your 'knowledge in lore' besides essentially saying, "I've read the books so this is why this is true". Show me a situation where the angels attacked a being just because....or where they have taken action against someone or something without the reason being illustrated through conversation of some type.
But why is that part of Heaven so focused on wanting to destroy the Nephalem and Sanctuary? Because they are part demonic blood and could potentially possess the same corruptive nature. And I already stated that Inarius is an exclusion because he is not part of the consensus.
How is acting against potential corruptive threats "striving for power"?
Like I keep stating, you don't have to know every bit of lore to gain an understanding of what the angels nature is. It is shown through plenty of dialogue that their actions are reactions to potential or immediate threats (the consensus). But you have to have an independent perspective instead of that of seemingly an inhabitant of Sanctuary to see that.
Allrighty -
"YOU SHALL NOT TAKE FROM ME SANCTUARY, Inarius reprimanded her memory. I WILL NOT LET YOU AGAIN DESTROY MY DREAM! SANCTUARY AND ALL IT CONTAINS WILL NOT BE YOURS, EVEN IF I MUST DESTROY IT MYSELF...AS IS MY RIGHT...
This is a direct copy/paste from the sin war trilogy. This is Inarius talking to himself in front of the mirror, imagining he is talking to Lilith.
Now tell me the truth, does that like the good guy to you?
Thing is - Inarius did not create Sanctuary. Inarius AND Lilith made Sanctuary (together with a bunch of other demons and angels).
And they both wanted to escape the war. In fact, it is written that when Inarius approached the band of demons with whom he created Sanctuary he was surprised to see how like minded they were.
Then angels and demons fell in love, did the deed, and that's how baby humans were born.
However when they saw what they created was more powerful than them Inarius wanted to destroy them and Lilith wanted to use them.
I honestly think angels and demons in the diablo universe deserve each other
So I think this conflict bases more on making Sanctuary unconnected with heaven and hell for a time.
Imagine and angel/demon couple.
Demon baby:
"Well honey I think we need to discuss our relantionship. You never open yourself to me"
Angel guy:
"Ohhh no! That bulshit talk again about me and your hellfire mother. Just give me a beer and quit"
Inarius was never the leader of angels. Angels are ruled by a council, not a single individual. Inarius was the Angiris Council's Advisor.
Not all angels want Sanctuary & humans destroyed. The council voted half in favor of letting Sanctuary exist and half for it's destruction. Malthael, believed to be the Archangel of Death, didn't vote as he believed the matter didn't concern him.
Tyrael, the Archangel of Justice, had the final and deciding vote. He was originally in favor of destroying humans. He called them abominations, but the last, self sacrificing act of the main protagonist in the Sin War books (I can't remember his name) changed Tyrael's mind. He said it himself that he once called humans abominations but that he was wrong, and so with his single vote, saved humanity from being erased.
We don't see Angels running around Sanctuary because they do not believe in interfering in the affairs of humans.
Inarius wanted humanity to worship him to fuel his narcissistic personality.
The Angiris Council made a deal with Mephisto. They would hand him the traitor Angel Inarius in exchange for Mephisto's word he would not invade Sanctuary. he cut his hand and dripped his blood in a rune to prove his oath or something along those lines. I forget exactly.
Inarius is imprisoned in Hell in a place called The Hall of Mirrors where he is chained and forced to gaze upon his misshapen self for all eternity. If I remember correctly, it was once again Tyrael who had the final say in agreeing that Mephisto could take Inarius. I may be mistaken, but I remember something along those lines from the last book in the Sin War.
Humans, particularly Necromancers, consider both Heaven and Hell a threat because both sides wish to use humanity for their own ends. Necromancers believe in balance. In that there is no good without evil. That good must triumph over evil but not erase it, or even good will eventually turn on itself. They basically fight for humanity to govern itself and not be controlled by either side.
Tyrael seems to be a bit of an enigma amongst angels. He seems to genuinely care for humanity and has directly influenced the outcome of major events by his actions in helping humanity against hell. He has done so on many occasions in direct opposition of the will of the Angiris Council.
The worldstone was created to keep the power of the Nephalem (humans) in check and to diminish it. Each subsequent generation of humans born had less and less of their Nephalem birthright powers to the point that it has been erased from the current human population in Sanctuary. It's never made clear if it's permanently gone, but from the way it's worded, I believe it suggests that it is. World stone or not, humanity has had their powers taken away from them slowly over many generations because of the stone.
I forget what else in the lore was a bit conflicted in this thread. I'll read it further and see what else comes up.