Yes there is a small minority that will want to achieve completion of the higher difficulties, but those people will not bring in sponsors, and hype like pvp will for SC1, SC2, WoW: BC.
It was all good until I read that. I would try to argue that there are a hell of a lot more people that are looking forward to inferno as their endgame as apposed to PvP but I have no solid evidence of this, I would bet that it was true though. And Blizzard don't need to bring in sponsors for Diablo 3, they have SC2 and WoW for that. As much as I would like to see more PvP in Diablo, It just doesn't look like there is much light at the end of the tunnel. I am hoping we get a better picture months down the line.
Inferno is the 4th tier difficulty. And it is freaking hard. By this time people have finished the game 3 times. So yes I would still use my phrasing "small minority," esp. considering casuals are the majority of any game. I really don't see casuals getting very far in Inferno. And actually developers and publishers need sponsorship to grow their company. That or they have to consistently exceed the success of their game launches. Of course this is not something you can rely on every quarter as a company which is why cash on the side is pretty much needed. Look at the WoW merchandise line, it's huge, but it's not doing well. So how do you make the merchandise do well? Hype.
This arena will be like eating your favorite food everyday for a whole month. You'll start to loose taste of it pretty quickly. To argue against it is not logical nor realistic, we all know we'll get bored with it pretty fast. Funny thing is that people try to tell themselves that it actually will be fun for a very very long time. Stop fooling yourselves.
To use your analogy, if I start getting tired of my favorite food...I eat something else for a couple days, and then go back to it. To put that into Diablo 3 terms...don't ONLY PvP. Simple. However, in this case...considering you're fighting human players in a team deathmatch where every team might have different strategies...its hardly like doing the same exact thing continuously. If you do find yourself needing to mix it up a bit, play some PvM.
Ecutruin. i'm all about the pvp/arena features in both WoW and Diablo series. Although that ladder is a shadow of what it once was, one lesson could be extracted from that site's existence. PVPer are f*cking hardcore. With that said I argue a different point in that Blizz really needs PvP to sustain their games. Across all their franchises, pvp has boosted and in many cases sustained the game title. Even with the Diablo franchise, pvp kept the wheels turning. I played both ladder and serious pvp in D2. And guess what? Ladder IS PvP. It's all about the epeen mentality. You didn't win any items for being the top of the ladder, you got pvp spirit, pvp pride. That is what it's all about. To rid the game of ladder/pvp (i'm not saying Blizz is actually going to), you basically turned this game into Castle Crashers. Coop linear game with harder difficulties after you beat the game. Yes there is a small minority that will want to achieve completion of the higher difficulties, but those people will not bring in sponsors, and hype like pvp will for SC1, SC2, WoW: BC.
Blizzard doesn't need a highly competitive PvP in order to sustain their game. They are perfectly capable of making the PvM entertaining enough to keep people playing for years. Their casual PvP system adds to that by giving a diversion from killing monsters. Diablo 3 will last a long time just as it is.
Honestly, it doesn't really matter if it doesn't, either. Games can have ends and it doesn't make the game a bad one. It just means it ends.
P.S: I would ask that in the future you break up your posts a bit... they get kinda hard to read as word~walls.
Yes there is a small minority that will want to achieve completion of the higher difficulties, but those people will not bring in sponsors, and hype like pvp will for SC1, SC2, WoW: BC.
It was all good until I read that. I would try to argue that there are a hell of a lot more people that are looking forward to inferno as their endgame as apposed to PvP but I have no solid evidence of this, I would bet that it was true though. And Blizzard don't need to bring in sponsors for Diablo 3, they have SC2 and WoW for that. As much as I would like to see more PvP in Diablo, It just doesn't look like there is much light at the end of the tunnel. I am hoping we get a better picture months down the line.
Inferno is the 4th tier difficulty. And it is freaking hard. By this time people have finished the game 3 times. So yes I would still use my phrasing "small minority," esp. considering casuals are the majority of any game. I really don't see casuals getting very far in Inferno. And actually developers and publishers need sponsorship to grow their company. That or they have to consistently exceed the success of their game launches. Of course this is not something you can rely on every quarter as a company which is why cash on the side is pretty much needed. Look at the WoW merchandise line, it's huge, but it's not doing well. So how do you make the merchandise do well? Hype.
Ok fair point. As for sponsors, I misunderstood what your wrote first so apologies for that.
As for the majority being casuals and unable to do inferno, what makes you think they will be able to overcome the potentially bigger challenge being PvP with unpredictable opponents and possible major imbalance? So in the end the PvM and PvP crowd could be somewhat similar in size where only the diehard players remain.
I'm not claiming casual players can withstand the wrath of good pvpers at all. To be honest a game does need some casual pvpers, but not all of them. What a pvp system needs is balance and fairness. Hard to achieve? You damn right it is. But the beauty of it is the games never have to be balanced. Blizz just needs to TRY to balance it and it'll be enough to stop pvpers from quitting. I'm going a little off track here. I'm going to use WoW pvp in my point. Vanilla WoW, PvP was to a certain degree imbalanced but balancing patches were constantly being released. Same with BC, where PvP was so hyped that many players know the top pvpers and their arena teams by name. LOTS of merchandise were launched at the end of BC as well as the sharp spike in Blizzcon goers. WoW even had it's own trading card game at this point. Was the game ever really balanced? No, but Blizz was trying. Eventually the imbalanced were getting out of hand and it just looked like Blizz was never on the right path to fix the more obvious issues such as the burst damage in WOTLK. Burst damage isn't as big an issue as it was in WOTLK currently but there hasn't been a balance patch since over 9 months ago. And each year the crowd size at the 3s arena tournament at Blizzcon gets sadder. I'm not saying WoW as a game is dead, but they have lost a lot of subscribers in the past year. The numbers are currently holding up due to the annual D3 pass and the closeness of MOP. But where would the game be if it did not entice our competitive nature in both the pve and the pvp realm?
I don't think that's entirely true... PvM and PvP is in itself two playtypes that need each other... Getting badass stuff in PvM to solely use in PvM is how you start the countdown for the death of the game, as is pure pvp-orientation, where PvM is seen as nothing but a barrier, and as such something to get through asap... To keep the game alive, you need to mix PvPers and PvMers and cater to both... And yes, i know the PvM-part of the game weighs more, but it's partially going to be kept alive by PvP, and the other way around.
I think that arenas can be kept fun through increased options, different arenas/playstyles and private turnaments with set rules (which i guess would suit the die-hard pvpers), however i don't see PvP in the playthroughs as happening...
However i could just be rambling, focusing on what I'm going to do... PvM in the beginning, PvP when i think my toon is "tough" enough, and I feel content with my gear, then switch back and forth, and maybe playing on my other heroes... (same story there...)
See I think you're wrong on one point.. I think people think way too little of PvM. There are a large group of players that will play the game solely to PvM. They won't PvP, they will continually make characters as they attempt to master hardcore inferno, etc. We don't need some highly competitive PvP scene to keep the game alive.
In addition to that, people keep talking like we aren't getting PvP. Blizzard has already given us a glimpse of the PvP we'll be getting. They've told us information about the direction they are going with PvP and they have stated that after release development will be completely focusing on finishing this PvP.
So....what is the issue? We're not getting 'enough' PvP?
Heh, now that i re-read what i posted, i can see my arguments fell a little short...
To simplify, let's (for the sake of argument) put players into categories...
There will be people playing PvM purely (as you said) who will emerge themselves in the atmosphere and flow of the game. (right?)
What i meant with "countdown till game is dead" is that i think there's only so much you can do in a game, before it just becomes a no-effort treasure hunt, all about maxing the stats... The game is very well suited for 10, 20 maybe 30 playthroughs after you finish inferno, because of the randomization, but after that the chance of finding new content becomes slim, and the rest is grinding for the sake of grinding.
Sure. I can agree with this, that after an excessive number of plays through...things will become more stale. However, I'd like to point out that it isn't really a negative thing. Take a game like...Super Mario World. You play through it, and maybe go through it some more trying to find all the secrets..but then it's done. It really isn't a bad thing for a game to have an end.
In this case, the randomized environments (which are supposed to be more random further in the game), inferno mode, multiple classes, randomized gear, and billions of build combinations give enough replay. By the time someone has actually completed the game, Blizzard will likely have another expansion out, causing the cycle to start all over (maybe with another class even).
Then there are the dedicated PvP'ers... The same kind of people that made the competitive, private ladders with fixed rules or gtfo (to eliminate exploitations)
With the arena-system, it's very important to get some variation, since we can't PvP in "game mode". Bigger game-space, traps, terrain like tundra/forest/mountainside etc could be possible options that players can choose from, and at the same time let it be up to the players if it's going to be 1v1, 2v2, 3v3 or 4v4. As mentioned before, many times, it all comes down to possibilities, and if you are forced to restrict PvP to arenas, then make some diversity! If not, PvPers might face the same content-starvation as the PvMers could, which could damage replayability.
Sure, I'll agree again that variation would be good...that variation doesn't need to be excessive customization though. Instead, it could be as simple as new game modes. Team death~match is the first mode they are likely adding, and they could add additional ones like capture the flag, king of the hill, etc. They could space adding these new modes out as to offer regular content for PvP players, without resorting to adding more competitively focused features.
In all honesty though, Blizzard has stated that the overall goal they are pushing with Diablo 3 is PvM. So, adding equal content for PvP to that of PvM doesn't make much sense with that goal. It makes more sense that they would instead focus their development on more PvM content.
Where i think the two has some co-dependance is when PvMers wants to bring their kick-ass toon to best themselves against others, in either casual or competitive PvP. (which i could see happening when they have beaten inferno a couple of times, and the initial hype has mellowed). It would be like a second challenge, and would require the PvM player to maybe change his/her priorities with what gear to look for, etc, effectively restarting the grinding focus...
And of course (this is what i felt about PvPers needing PvM, which, short of stating the obvious, doesn't make any sense ) PvPers need to go PvM to get their gear (either that or AH) and i just fear that PvP becomes a form of grinding (either as rewards or whatot)
I wouldn't say there is much co~dependence as the PvM players don't rely on PvP really. The PvP focused players need to either take part in PvM themselves or purchase gear from a PvM player. However, the PvM focused character can PvM without ever worrying about PvP and be unaffected.
As for PvP becoming a grind, actually...the route Blizzard is taking with PvP stops any benefit of grinding PvP for rewards as the only awards achievable will be things you could achieve by casually playing. The goal of PvP in Diablo 3 is to just play for fun without worry about rewards...and honestly I like that.
Ecutruin: Okay, so, you're saying that if we have perfect gear and nothing left to collect, we're forced to PvP and PvE? Thats retarded. Then there is no endgame at all, only the illusion of it.
If you have perfect gear, you could PvM for fun if you enjoy that kind of thing. Otherwise you could fight other players with your perfect gear for fun...if you enjoy that kind of thing. Or.. you could just be done, you've beaten the game and gotten all you wanted out of it. Might as well move on to a new game until the expansion comes out. All three options are good ones.
I already made a big ol' post a page or two back, so here's the summary;
Jay wilson himself said that even WITH the demand from the community, they will NOT be adding features like replays, or spectator mode, and they will NEVER make D3 an Esport.
This should literally /all this bickering and fighting.
For a Blizzard game it kinda is a bad thing. They have put a lot of effort for the replayability, but they seem to forgot about never-ending goals, trying to tell us that the game is about grinding for grinding sake. Anyway it doesn't matter much, since Jay Wilson said that they will add such goals later in the game, as thoes will not be needed for first few months.
Why does their need to be never~ending goals? The game will have a ton of replayability already. I fully expect it to take 6 months to a year for someone to have perfected the PvM game. That's a rather large amount of replay if you ask me. Around that time would be when I expect them to have an expansion at least announced, if not released.
I'm not sure what goals you expect them to add really. Inferno is their primary end~game for PvM.. and their system for PvP doesn't really have never~ending goals either. Hell the only goals they said they were adding for PvP were some achievements. So what are these supposed goals that will give never~ending goals?
So you're saying that Diablo 2 is way better then, just with worse Graphics . Arena Will suck and the longevity of the game is shorter then tetris
Diablo 2 might be better for you. As for me, I really like what Blizzard is offering and feel the game will have me playing if for a few years at least. The Arena seems like it will be awesome to jump into and I expect to have a blast with the fast paced PvP.
I don't know how you got what you got out of what I said.. maybe you should stick with Diablo 2 though.
Ecutruin: Endgame wont be endgame, PvP wont be PvP. Gear will just be gear and there is nothing in the game to strive and fight for. Fun will stop being fun, even to you unless ofcourse you're one of those who can ride a bike around a pole for hours on end. Usually, you enjoy the PvE game, gather the best gear so you then can preform better in PvP and climb the ranks, right there you have a game that will last for many years to come. You all get the illusion that this arena they are creating will be like rebecca black says "FUN FUN FUN". Yes it will be fun in the beginning but people will whine about balance and overpowered setups and then they will start to whine over the incompentet players they get paired with unless you team up with RLs or other good players that you know. This arena will most defenetly not be as fun as people think it will. No good rewards, no goals, teamed up with retards no matter what "hidden rating you have" which will be another "fun" experience and add to the more fun, they will whine about balance, they will whine about getting owned, they will whine about overpowered setups and the flaming will begin. Killing players will get old unless you're one of those who get distracted by a shiny penny on the ground while someone gets killed in the background. No goals, no rewards, whats the point? Forced to play PvE just because there is no good PvP? Bite me honestly. Blizzard can skip making an arena if they think their PvE will hold, but no they make PvP because they know it wont hold for that long and neither will their casual arena.
Bingo.
People have way to much faith in Blizzards PvM haha. I only PvM'd in Diablo 2 so I could get better gear so I could PvP. You honestly think killing some retarded AI monsters is incentive for me to play the game for a long time? Game is about building your character, gathering your gear, and seeing who is the best. Can't wait for their "hard" mode inferno to get stomped in a few weeks.
I would also like to point out that the players themselves have evolved...probably in a negative fashion.
Grinding for gear in D2 was awesome because you can makes games and kill bosses for good loot every couple of minutes. This feeling was unprecedented and was pure heaven. People could grind the same mobs for hours, weeks, even months non-stop. I want to say that this feeling and addiction probably occurred dued to the fact that many people felt it was easier compared to RO and Ultima. With WoW, the game has been easier and easier and easier. Loot is easier to get, bosses, questing, leveling, rep grinding, everything became easier and faster. Yet players can still go for more convenience and more purple loot. My point is, there will be a smaller population that would still grind those sleepless nights for months compared to that of D2. Not to mention the majority of the kids who played D2 have jobs now which means they have less time and effectively less patience to sit thru the grinds. :]
Well my point is that the majority of the players will get tierd of just "having fun" and not being able to progress towards something that is meaningful and rewarding.
Dude.. PvP doesn't need rewards to be fun, it's the challenge of fighting other players that keeps it interesting.
As for your other word~wall post... not going to read it. Please break up your posts if you expect me to actually do so.
Well i dont care if you read my posts or not and i wrote it on my phone so i cba to break it up. Anyway the fight itself is awsome, getting rewarded properly is more awsome. It would be like saying pve without rewards would be awsome. It wouldnt. Climbing ranks, perhaps getting pvp dedicated Vanity items, pvp dedicated colors and titles would be freakin sweet. That would make the game live for a very very Long time and it gives People something to fight for.
If there are no rewards, no ranking or any competetive Nature within their pvp systems then the whole Point with pvp is gone. you Will get tierd of it 2 pretty soon im sure. Unless ofcourse you can Chase a goat around a pole for hours and still be amused. My Point is pvp is competetive by nature and Will Always be. Take that away and its not pvp, you might aswell make npcs to fight in the arena because the whole meaning with it is gone. its just as fun smashing npcs for no reason as it is killing players for no reason. There is no difference.
A; The game is going to live for a very long time because of the PVE element of the item hunt. It's what kept D2 going for so long - not pvp. As a matter of fact, a very small fraction of the D2 community pvp'd more than once in a great while.
B; Blizzard has already said, very recently, that they are firmly against; Spectator mode / replays / pvp ladders / pvp only items / anything that leads towards competitiveness in PVP other than the very nature of pvp itself. In other words, it's going to stay the way it was before, save for maybe some different game modes, and maybe the option to do custom matches.
Blue: okay so then they can skip the arena completely since pvp is competetive either way. They just dont provide you with a system where you can see your rank etc. Also, no, pve didnt keep d2 alive all these years, dedicated pvpers did. Doubt you kept playing for years just to kill mephisto one more time. You want gear from pve so you can get stronger in pvp because thats the Only way to obtain gear.
Once you aquire the gear you want i doubt you'll keep farming for hours on End. Thats where pvp comes in, climbing ranks, becoming better, getting titles and maxing out your pvp achievements etc. Thats where the longevity is.
Not everyone plays to get more PvP power. In fact, many plays played purely to overcome PvM challenges. Just because that isn't something you enjoy, doesn't mean it isn't something many other players do. In Diablo 3 there is the added challenge of Inferno, which will keep people grinding PvM for at least a year likely (more if you consider hardcore characters).
That said, I'm looking forward to PvP in Diablo 3. Arena should offer a welcome break from grinding in a fun casual environment. I don't want to see that changed because such an environment will encourage players that would never have PvP'd in Diablo 2, to PvP in Diablo 3. It doesn't need rewards, it doesn't need more competitive features, or anything like that. It can be fun just for the sake of having fun killing other players.
Why do you have this need to make a game into something the developers themselves do not want?
Well i dont care if you read my posts or not and i wrote it on my phone so i cba to break it up. Anyway the fight itself is awsome, getting rewarded properly is more awsome. It would be like saying pve without rewards would be awsome. It wouldnt. Climbing ranks, perhaps getting pvp dedicated Vanity items, pvp dedicated colors and titles would be freakin sweet. That would make the game live for a very very Long time and it gives People something to fight for.
If there are no rewards, no ranking or any competetive Nature within their pvp systems then the whole Point with pvp is gone. you Will get tierd of it 2 pretty soon im sure. Unless ofcourse you can Chase a goat around a pole for hours and still be amused. My Point is pvp is competetive by nature and Will Always be. Take that away and its not pvp, you might aswell make npcs to fight in the arena because the whole meaning with it is gone. its just as fun smashing npcs for no reason as it is killing players for no reason. There is no difference.
A; The game is going to live for a very long time because of the PVE element of the item hunt. It's what kept D2 going for so long - not pvp. As a matter of fact, a very small fraction of the D2 community pvp'd more than once in a great while.
B; Blizzard has already said, very recently, that they are firmly against; Spectator mode / replays / pvp ladders / pvp only items / anything that leads towards competitiveness in PVP other than the very nature of pvp itself. In other words, it's going to stay the way it was before, save for maybe some different game modes, and maybe the option to do custom matches.
All of my years of experience on Diablo and the countless amount of people I met along the way disprove your argument A. It is just as Conax says, people PvM'd to level and get gear, so they could PvP.
Now obviously everyone plays the game for different reasons, everyone has a different experience. There is no 1 right way to play Diablo. So to discredit how we saw the game or how we played the game is just plain retarded. You and even Blizzard have no actual data determining what was the reason D2 lasted as long as it did(does). They could possibly and this is a long stretch, have data seeing how many PvM games vs Duel games there are, but to what end those PvM games are is data that is impossible to achieve. Not to mention the countless private duel games and the private PvM games which would skew all of the data to a drastic margin.
Bottom line of this story, don't look like an ass and preach baseless lies as facts.
Not everyone plays to get more PvP power. In fact, many plays played purely to overcome PvM challenges. Just because that isn't something you enjoy, doesn't mean it isn't something many other players do. In Diablo 3 there is the added challenge of Inferno, which will keep people grinding PvM for at least a year likely (more if you consider hardcore characters).
That said, I'm looking forward to PvP in Diablo 3. Arena should offer a welcome break from grinding in a fun casual environment. I don't want to see that changed because such an environment will encourage players that would never have PvP'd in Diablo 2, to PvP in Diablo 3. It doesn't need rewards, it doesn't need more competitive features, or anything like that. It can be fun just for the sake of having fun killing other players.
Why do you have this need to make a game into something the developers themselves do not want?
Well just because it is something you don't enjoy doesn't mean that it is bad for the game or the community. You keep throwing around these "statistics" which have no real meaning, they are as meaningful as me saying you suck at the game or that PvP'ers are the majority or that PvM'ers are the majority, neither of us can prove any of these ignorant statements and they do nothing but show ignorance on our part.
Arena can and i'm sure will provide you and people like you with that casual experience, the break from the grind, the fun 1 off play through of PvP. What does it offer to people who actually like the PvP style of Diablo though? We are suddenly shunned and kicked in the corner because we simply enjoy to have some sort of competitiveness in our PvP? We are outlawed and banished because we simply want to help grow the community and interest in Diablo and show off its great PvP potential? When it comes to talking with you, it always comes down to how you are the majority and how Blizzard hates competition in Diablo, you are always completely ignorant and blind to what a competitive community can do for a game and constantly misuse words like esports and competition.
All of my years of experience on Diablo and the countless amount of people I met along the way disprove your argument A. It is just as Conax says, people PvM'd to level and get gear, so they could PvP.
Now obviously everyone plays the game for different reasons, everyone has a different experience. There is no 1 right way to play Diablo. So to discredit how we saw the game or how we played the game is just plain retarded. You and even Blizzard have no actual data determining what was the reason D2 lasted as long as it did(does). They could possibly and this is a long stretch, have data seeing how many PvM games vs Duel games there are, but to what end those PvM games are is data that is impossible to achieve. Not to mention the countless private duel games and the private PvM games which would skew all of the data to a drastic margin.
Bottom line of this story, don't look like an ass and preach baseless lies as facts.
From my experience, it went both ways. There wasn't a majority that PvM'd purely to PvP even in the last few years that I played. Some did go for PvP, sure...but many also did it just to level, get gear, and overcome challenges. So, from my experience there was as many or more people playing PvM just to enjoy PvM (cannot account for private matches).
This is at the END of the game's life, when the majority of players had played through the story an extensive amount of times. So the fact that PvM players matched PvP players in numbers...means that Blizzard is fully justified in focusing Diablo 3 on PvM... If Blizzard can achieve those results via PvM still with a game that is 12~ years old...imagine what they can achieve with a new game.
All of my years of experience on Diablo and the countless amount of people I met along the way disprove your argument A. It is just as Conax says, people PvM'd to level and get gear, so they could PvP.
Now obviously everyone plays the game for different reasons, everyone has a different experience. There is no 1 right way to play Diablo. So to discredit how we saw the game or how we played the game is just plain retarded. You and even Blizzard have no actual data determining what was the reason D2 lasted as long as it did(does). They could possibly and this is a long stretch, have data seeing how many PvM games vs Duel games there are, but to what end those PvM games are is data that is impossible to achieve. Not to mention the countless private duel games and the private PvM games which would skew all of the data to a drastic margin.
Bottom line of this story, don't look like an ass and preach baseless lies as facts.
From my experience, it went both ways. There wasn't a majority that PvM'd purely to PvP even in the last few years that I played. Some did go for PvP, sure...but many also did it just to level, get gear, and overcome challenges. So, from my experience there was as many or more people playing PvM just to enjoy PvM (cannot account for private matches).
This is at the END of the game's life, when the majority of players had played through the story an extensive amount of times. So the fact that PvM players matched PvP players in numbers...means that Blizzard is fully justified in focusing Diablo 3 on PvM... If Blizzard can achieve those results via PvM still with a game that is 12~ years old...imagine what they can achieve with a new game.
Ha ok, so you are boasting that a game primarily developed for its robust and terrific PvM has its community matched by an inferior shallow mechanic right?
Now imagine if that shallow inferior mechanic was given a little bit more depth, a little more opening toward new players, a little more exposure...you think your robust PvM that is only evenly matched with the shallow inferior mechanic will still compete when it is also a robust mechanic?
The correct answer is, who the hell cares. Obviously there are players who enjoy both a great amount. To limit one for the other is a dumb idea. Especially when 1 community takes care of themselves and only require so very little ha.
Ha ok, so you are boasting that a game primarily developed for its robust and terrific PvM has its community matched by an inferior shallow mechanic right?
Now imagine if that shallow inferior mechanic was given a little bit more depth, a little more opening toward new players, a little more exposure...you think your robust PvM that is only evenly matched with the shallow inferior mechanic will still compete when it is also a robust mechanic?
The correct answer is, who the hell cares. Obviously there are players who enjoy both a great amount. To limit one for the other is a dumb idea. Especially when 1 community takes care of themselves and only require so very little ha.
You see it as a dumb idea, while Blizzard (and others in their community) see it as the developers wanting to focus on developing what they enjoy developing (the PvM). Just because that means the game doesn't cater to your play~style specifically, doesn't make it a dumb idea. Blizzard doesn't make decisions like these without research either. They obviously know they can keep the game alive without a highly competitive PvP environment...
Yes, PvM is evenly matched with PvP still after 12~ years of Diablo 2's life. Considering many of those people still grinding PvM after all this time have beaten the story...a couple hundred times?...seems pretty amazing that PvM is still going that strong. I'm confident that Diablo 3's PvM crowd will be the majority...for a few years at least. Sure, many will PvP for fun occasionally...but that doesn't mean their focus will be PvP. Just like many players I knew in Diablo 2 did PvP on occasion...but it wasn't their focus.
Diablo has always been a game about diving through dungeons, killing the minions of hell...
Maybe it is because I'm more of a PvM player but I don't understand why the hardcore PvP people are upset with Blizz. They have actually put in a stand alone PvP system that matches you up with other people of a similar ranking. Compared to D2 this system should see more people actually doing PvP (compared to D2 where very few did it from my experience). Are people mad because they can't show off how high their ranking is and only have the win amounts to show? Or are they just mad because there isn't a PK/dueling system?
The only gripe I have with D3 PvP is that I want to be able to challenge my friends. It seems like we will just be able to group up with friends and challenge other random groups... but who knows what will be added in the PvPatch
Ecutruin: i love the fact that you sound all knowing, even statistics blizzard cant get. It's funny because when adon says it goes both wys you're unwilling to accept that it actually does. It just shows how deeply down you are as a blizzard fanboy. You Only use their Words to counter ours, you have no argument of your own that actually has meaning. It gets abit tiersome when People are preaching things when they clearly have no idea about statistics or what People did. Anyway i'll probably ignore you in the future because you and i disagree in Everything. You say you enjoy pvp but you talk like you cant pvp or enjoy it. Much like my gf really Only that she understands the Point of giving the hardcore People the Tools they need to enjoy the game as much as the other playerbase, but you refuse to realise that and preach that blizzard is right in all their thoughts and opinions.
you need to see that there is a need for both parts. As you Said without knowing at all, alot of People pvped and pved. Then that means that its 50/50 according to your useless statistics. Yeah, i Believe People loved d2s non excistant story and awsome boss farming. They didnt Do it for other reasons at all.
You're missing a key factor here, Conax. Blizzard's own developers don't want the features you guys seem to want. Why do you somehow deserve something that the developers don't even want to implement? Its like expecting FarmVille to implement PvP with a full combat system, just because you want it. It's just not the direction the developers want to go with the game.
As for the need for both parts...we are getting both PvP and PvM. Sure, they are focusing their balance and development primarily on PvM, but that doesn't mean their PvP system will be bad. Just because there isn't some ranking system for people to fluff their ego, doesn't make the system bad.
Now, about my statistics... I played a lot of Diablo 2, both during its prime and towards the end. So, the statistics I have aren't out of nowhere...they are based on my experience with the game. However, the statistics don't really matter in the end...Blizzard has made it clear that their primary development focus will be PvM...pretty much end of story.
Inferno is the 4th tier difficulty. And it is freaking hard. By this time people have finished the game 3 times. So yes I would still use my phrasing "small minority," esp. considering casuals are the majority of any game. I really don't see casuals getting very far in Inferno. And actually developers and publishers need sponsorship to grow their company. That or they have to consistently exceed the success of their game launches. Of course this is not something you can rely on every quarter as a company which is why cash on the side is pretty much needed. Look at the WoW merchandise line, it's huge, but it's not doing well. So how do you make the merchandise do well? Hype.
To use your analogy, if I start getting tired of my favorite food...I eat something else for a couple days, and then go back to it. To put that into Diablo 3 terms...don't ONLY PvP. Simple. However, in this case...considering you're fighting human players in a team deathmatch where every team might have different strategies...its hardly like doing the same exact thing continuously. If you do find yourself needing to mix it up a bit, play some PvM.
Blizzard doesn't need a highly competitive PvP in order to sustain their game. They are perfectly capable of making the PvM entertaining enough to keep people playing for years. Their casual PvP system adds to that by giving a diversion from killing monsters. Diablo 3 will last a long time just as it is.
Honestly, it doesn't really matter if it doesn't, either. Games can have ends and it doesn't make the game a bad one. It just means it ends.
P.S: I would ask that in the future you break up your posts a bit... they get kinda hard to read as word~walls.
I'm not claiming casual players can withstand the wrath of good pvpers at all. To be honest a game does need some casual pvpers, but not all of them. What a pvp system needs is balance and fairness. Hard to achieve? You damn right it is. But the beauty of it is the games never have to be balanced. Blizz just needs to TRY to balance it and it'll be enough to stop pvpers from quitting. I'm going a little off track here. I'm going to use WoW pvp in my point. Vanilla WoW, PvP was to a certain degree imbalanced but balancing patches were constantly being released. Same with BC, where PvP was so hyped that many players know the top pvpers and their arena teams by name. LOTS of merchandise were launched at the end of BC as well as the sharp spike in Blizzcon goers. WoW even had it's own trading card game at this point. Was the game ever really balanced? No, but Blizz was trying. Eventually the imbalanced were getting out of hand and it just looked like Blizz was never on the right path to fix the more obvious issues such as the burst damage in WOTLK. Burst damage isn't as big an issue as it was in WOTLK currently but there hasn't been a balance patch since over 9 months ago. And each year the crowd size at the 3s arena tournament at Blizzcon gets sadder. I'm not saying WoW as a game is dead, but they have lost a lot of subscribers in the past year. The numbers are currently holding up due to the annual D3 pass and the closeness of MOP. But where would the game be if it did not entice our competitive nature in both the pve and the pvp realm?
See I think you're wrong on one point.. I think people think way too little of PvM. There are a large group of players that will play the game solely to PvM. They won't PvP, they will continually make characters as they attempt to master hardcore inferno, etc. We don't need some highly competitive PvP scene to keep the game alive.
In addition to that, people keep talking like we aren't getting PvP. Blizzard has already given us a glimpse of the PvP we'll be getting. They've told us information about the direction they are going with PvP and they have stated that after release development will be completely focusing on finishing this PvP.
So....what is the issue? We're not getting 'enough' PvP?
Sure. I can agree with this, that after an excessive number of plays through...things will become more stale. However, I'd like to point out that it isn't really a negative thing. Take a game like...Super Mario World. You play through it, and maybe go through it some more trying to find all the secrets..but then it's done. It really isn't a bad thing for a game to have an end.
In this case, the randomized environments (which are supposed to be more random further in the game), inferno mode, multiple classes, randomized gear, and billions of build combinations give enough replay. By the time someone has actually completed the game, Blizzard will likely have another expansion out, causing the cycle to start all over (maybe with another class even).
Sure, I'll agree again that variation would be good...that variation doesn't need to be excessive customization though. Instead, it could be as simple as new game modes. Team death~match is the first mode they are likely adding, and they could add additional ones like capture the flag, king of the hill, etc. They could space adding these new modes out as to offer regular content for PvP players, without resorting to adding more competitively focused features.
In all honesty though, Blizzard has stated that the overall goal they are pushing with Diablo 3 is PvM. So, adding equal content for PvP to that of PvM doesn't make much sense with that goal. It makes more sense that they would instead focus their development on more PvM content.
I wouldn't say there is much co~dependence as the PvM players don't rely on PvP really. The PvP focused players need to either take part in PvM themselves or purchase gear from a PvM player. However, the PvM focused character can PvM without ever worrying about PvP and be unaffected.
As for PvP becoming a grind, actually...the route Blizzard is taking with PvP stops any benefit of grinding PvP for rewards as the only awards achievable will be things you could achieve by casually playing. The goal of PvP in Diablo 3 is to just play for fun without worry about rewards...and honestly I like that.
If you have perfect gear, you could PvM for fun if you enjoy that kind of thing. Otherwise you could fight other players with your perfect gear for fun...if you enjoy that kind of thing. Or.. you could just be done, you've beaten the game and gotten all you wanted out of it. Might as well move on to a new game until the expansion comes out. All three options are good ones.
Jay wilson himself said that even WITH the demand from the community, they will NOT be adding features like replays, or spectator mode, and they will NEVER make D3 an Esport.
This should literally /all this bickering and fighting.
Why does their need to be never~ending goals? The game will have a ton of replayability already. I fully expect it to take 6 months to a year for someone to have perfected the PvM game. That's a rather large amount of replay if you ask me. Around that time would be when I expect them to have an expansion at least announced, if not released.
I'm not sure what goals you expect them to add really. Inferno is their primary end~game for PvM.. and their system for PvP doesn't really have never~ending goals either. Hell the only goals they said they were adding for PvP were some achievements. So what are these supposed goals that will give never~ending goals?
Diablo 2 might be better for you. As for me, I really like what Blizzard is offering and feel the game will have me playing if for a few years at least. The Arena seems like it will be awesome to jump into and I expect to have a blast with the fast paced PvP.
I don't know how you got what you got out of what I said.. maybe you should stick with Diablo 2 though.
People have way to much faith in Blizzards PvM haha. I only PvM'd in Diablo 2 so I could get better gear so I could PvP. You honestly think killing some retarded AI monsters is incentive for me to play the game for a long time? Game is about building your character, gathering your gear, and seeing who is the best. Can't wait for their "hard" mode inferno to get stomped in a few weeks.
Grinding for gear in D2 was awesome because you can makes games and kill bosses for good loot every couple of minutes. This feeling was unprecedented and was pure heaven. People could grind the same mobs for hours, weeks, even months non-stop. I want to say that this feeling and addiction probably occurred dued to the fact that many people felt it was easier compared to RO and Ultima. With WoW, the game has been easier and easier and easier. Loot is easier to get, bosses, questing, leveling, rep grinding, everything became easier and faster. Yet players can still go for more convenience and more purple loot. My point is, there will be a smaller population that would still grind those sleepless nights for months compared to that of D2. Not to mention the majority of the kids who played D2 have jobs now which means they have less time and effectively less patience to sit thru the grinds. :]
Dude.. PvP doesn't need rewards to be fun, it's the challenge of fighting other players that keeps it interesting.
As for your other word~wall post... not going to read it. Please break up your posts if you expect me to actually do so.
A; The game is going to live for a very long time because of the PVE element of the item hunt. It's what kept D2 going for so long - not pvp. As a matter of fact, a very small fraction of the D2 community pvp'd more than once in a great while.
B; Blizzard has already said, very recently, that they are firmly against; Spectator mode / replays / pvp ladders / pvp only items / anything that leads towards competitiveness in PVP other than the very nature of pvp itself. In other words, it's going to stay the way it was before, save for maybe some different game modes, and maybe the option to do custom matches.
-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8CBbeSAjVo
-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hI4peeO3yzY
LOL -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcJ_XT3oWtY
Not everyone plays to get more PvP power. In fact, many plays played purely to overcome PvM challenges. Just because that isn't something you enjoy, doesn't mean it isn't something many other players do. In Diablo 3 there is the added challenge of Inferno, which will keep people grinding PvM for at least a year likely (more if you consider hardcore characters).
That said, I'm looking forward to PvP in Diablo 3. Arena should offer a welcome break from grinding in a fun casual environment. I don't want to see that changed because such an environment will encourage players that would never have PvP'd in Diablo 2, to PvP in Diablo 3. It doesn't need rewards, it doesn't need more competitive features, or anything like that. It can be fun just for the sake of having fun killing other players.
Why do you have this need to make a game into something the developers themselves do not want?
Now obviously everyone plays the game for different reasons, everyone has a different experience. There is no 1 right way to play Diablo. So to discredit how we saw the game or how we played the game is just plain retarded. You and even Blizzard have no actual data determining what was the reason D2 lasted as long as it did(does). They could possibly and this is a long stretch, have data seeing how many PvM games vs Duel games there are, but to what end those PvM games are is data that is impossible to achieve. Not to mention the countless private duel games and the private PvM games which would skew all of the data to a drastic margin.
Bottom line of this story, don't look like an ass and preach baseless lies as facts.
Well just because it is something you don't enjoy doesn't mean that it is bad for the game or the community. You keep throwing around these "statistics" which have no real meaning, they are as meaningful as me saying you suck at the game or that PvP'ers are the majority or that PvM'ers are the majority, neither of us can prove any of these ignorant statements and they do nothing but show ignorance on our part.
Arena can and i'm sure will provide you and people like you with that casual experience, the break from the grind, the fun 1 off play through of PvP. What does it offer to people who actually like the PvP style of Diablo though? We are suddenly shunned and kicked in the corner because we simply enjoy to have some sort of competitiveness in our PvP? We are outlawed and banished because we simply want to help grow the community and interest in Diablo and show off its great PvP potential? When it comes to talking with you, it always comes down to how you are the majority and how Blizzard hates competition in Diablo, you are always completely ignorant and blind to what a competitive community can do for a game and constantly misuse words like esports and competition.
From my experience, it went both ways. There wasn't a majority that PvM'd purely to PvP even in the last few years that I played. Some did go for PvP, sure...but many also did it just to level, get gear, and overcome challenges. So, from my experience there was as many or more people playing PvM just to enjoy PvM (cannot account for private matches).
This is at the END of the game's life, when the majority of players had played through the story an extensive amount of times. So the fact that PvM players matched PvP players in numbers...means that Blizzard is fully justified in focusing Diablo 3 on PvM... If Blizzard can achieve those results via PvM still with a game that is 12~ years old...imagine what they can achieve with a new game.
Now imagine if that shallow inferior mechanic was given a little bit more depth, a little more opening toward new players, a little more exposure...you think your robust PvM that is only evenly matched with the shallow inferior mechanic will still compete when it is also a robust mechanic?
The correct answer is, who the hell cares. Obviously there are players who enjoy both a great amount. To limit one for the other is a dumb idea. Especially when 1 community takes care of themselves and only require so very little ha.
You see it as a dumb idea, while Blizzard (and others in their community) see it as the developers wanting to focus on developing what they enjoy developing (the PvM). Just because that means the game doesn't cater to your play~style specifically, doesn't make it a dumb idea. Blizzard doesn't make decisions like these without research either. They obviously know they can keep the game alive without a highly competitive PvP environment...
Yes, PvM is evenly matched with PvP still after 12~ years of Diablo 2's life. Considering many of those people still grinding PvM after all this time have beaten the story...a couple hundred times?...seems pretty amazing that PvM is still going that strong. I'm confident that Diablo 3's PvM crowd will be the majority...for a few years at least. Sure, many will PvP for fun occasionally...but that doesn't mean their focus will be PvP. Just like many players I knew in Diablo 2 did PvP on occasion...but it wasn't their focus.
Diablo has always been a game about diving through dungeons, killing the minions of hell...
The only gripe I have with D3 PvP is that I want to be able to challenge my friends. It seems like we will just be able to group up with friends and challenge other random groups... but who knows what will be added in the PvPatch
You're missing a key factor here, Conax. Blizzard's own developers don't want the features you guys seem to want. Why do you somehow deserve something that the developers don't even want to implement? Its like expecting FarmVille to implement PvP with a full combat system, just because you want it. It's just not the direction the developers want to go with the game.
As for the need for both parts...we are getting both PvP and PvM. Sure, they are focusing their balance and development primarily on PvM, but that doesn't mean their PvP system will be bad. Just because there isn't some ranking system for people to fluff their ego, doesn't make the system bad.
Now, about my statistics... I played a lot of Diablo 2, both during its prime and towards the end. So, the statistics I have aren't out of nowhere...they are based on my experience with the game. However, the statistics don't really matter in the end...Blizzard has made it clear that their primary development focus will be PvM...pretty much end of story.