Items could turn "account bound" upon purchase from the AH.
Either
a)permanently
or
b)temporarily (like 3 weeks, tuneable in all directions)
This would create a huge item sink and remove flipping from the game. Either you need the item or you don't buy it, period. It's similar to the WoW "BoE" system, now, that I think about it, though "BoE" wouldn't be enough for D3, for obvious reasons.
If you think "Wait, what if I want to purchase an item now and resell it once I get something better?!", please imagine how much you'd actually lose. Odds are, that by the time, that you dump an item, it doesn't have nearly the value it had, when you purchased it.
What are your thoughts? I know, the AH-players wouldn't like it, it's like taking away their game. Are these the majority of players these days? After most of the monster slayers left
edit:
copy/pasting this from my latest response for those, who only read starting posts because I consider it a good summary of my pov:
Quote from "shaggy" »
They shouldn't remove or penalize trading. But they should de-incentivize it by making it plausible for you to effectively play the game without engaging in it.
I kind of agree with this.
I could reduce my suggested item sink to "bind to account on equip", that would be the bare minimum and a pure improvement of the game with no unwarranted penalties to anyone.
That would keep trading and flipping alive and working at full capacity. The problem of this is, that time spent on the AH would remain more rewarding than time spent playing, which is one of the game's biggest issues. Tackling this is important, imo. And via my original suggestion, Blizz could kill those two birds with one stone.
Yeah, has been discussed several times. I can try to dig up some of the responses to this idea.
In the end, if you think about it, it doesn't really change much. I really don't like the AH and wouldn't mind if it would be gone by tomorrow, but it wouldn't help me to get more fun out of the game at all. I don't re-sell my old items (too lazy, just salvage them), and I don't care about flippers. The best items in the game are sold outside of the AH anyways, and items worth less than a million aren't probably worth to be put on the AH again anyways. So, this would only affect (and annoy) a limited amount of players, but it wouldn't address the root of the problem.
My thoughts? I hate it. Making items BOA is not the answer. I am strongly opposed to any form of binding gear to accounts or characters.
Also, the auction house is a perfectly valid form of trading. Honestly your post reeks of self found elitism. Flipping yes is a consequence of implementing an AH but if anything flippers lose out on their experience. I don't understand why flipping hurts someone who doesn't use the AH.
Bagstone:
I don't think, it'd be the be all end all cure for the game, but I consider it an improvement nonetheless.
It's targeted at players like me, who want to spend most of their time killing monsters, but would also like to sell their finds via the AH and buy some upgrades from the money gained that way. It would be elitist to call this "the way it's meant to be played", but I think (or hope) that most players, who bought the game a year ago, wanted that.
I really think, there would be economical benefits to anyone in that group of players I described. With so many items out of the system after useage, prices would never be so low. And new drops would have value, because there wouldn't already be millions of the same item in play. Currently, even if you do hit the jackpot and find, say, a Mempo, it's still not even worth a million (unless that 1 random stat is crit). Thus you can't "live" from your own drops, which results in not being able to purchase other peoples wares, yadda yadda yadda.
So the item sink (which wasn't my idea, it was mentioned by maka in my last thread) would be the overwhelming benefit. Removing flippers (mostly bots) from the game would be more of a -beneficial- side effect.
After all, if there is a good deal on the item that I want, I don't want it taken away and price-corrected by some guy who never even met Diablo in a game named after him
That's a little egoistic, though, but feel free to think the same way
There is nothing wrong with the AH, people who still claim that are delusional.
The AH is nothing but a trading platform. If you are not happy with itemisation or drop rates or your drop luck or whatever, then complain about those, not about the AH.
If you think "Wait, what if I want to purchase an item now and resell it once I get something better?!", please imagine how much you'd actually lose. Odds are, that by the time, that you dump an item, it doesn't have nearly the value it had, when you purchased it
This part is particularily stupid. Imagine somebody buying a 2 billion item and finding a 5 billion upgrade later. I am pretty sure he wants his original 2bill back by selling his item. It's not his fault that you never traded anything valuable. Most oher people have.
I really think, there would be economical benefits to anyone in that group of players I described. With so many items out of the system after useage, prices would never be so low. And new drops would have value, because there wouldn't already be millions of the same item in play.
That's pretty much the situation we have in HC. I dont know how much you played it, but the effect is not what you imagine. Items are RARE. You will not be able to buy any set or legendary item ( for lvl 60 ) because they all cost billions. Yes, new drops have value. So much that you wont be able to afford it, and only the very few rich 0.5% at the top can ever afford them.
That's the thing about it. A change that targets a specific group is not fair.
Anyways, I don't think any changes should be made until itemization 2.0. We should see how that effects the economy before making irreversible changes.
Anyways, I don't think any changes should be made until itemization 2.0. We should see how that effects the economy before making irreversible changes.
There is nothing wrong with the AH, people who still claim that are delusional.
The AH is nothing but a trading platform. If you are not happy with itemisation or drop rates or your drop luck or whatever, then complain about those, not about the AH.
Well, the AH in itself is fine, it's just the part of the game that reveals some flaws and puts them right in your face. Comparing this to a complaint about drop luck is rather childish. Yes, this is offensive, which I usually don't like to be, but it seems, I have to adapt.
This part is particularily stupid. Imagine somebody buying a 2 billion item and finding a 5 billion upgrade later. I am pretty sure he wants his original 2bill back by selling his item. It's not his fault that you never traded anything valuable. Most oher people have.
That's what I meant. I'd say, it's stupid to make up a scenario that could affect about 0.0001% of the playerbase and then has a chance to happen of about 0.0001% again in an effort to prove something wrong.
So you paid 2b for a Manticore 6 months ago and got a better one now? Guess what that original one is worth now. And seriously, who would complain about finding a 5b item right after spending 2b on another one?
Also, if it were the norm to not recycle items, like it's been in WoW for ages, nobody would even bother about a refund for their old stuff.
That's pretty much the situation we have in HC. I dont know how much you played it, but the effect is not what you imagine. Items are RARE. You will not be able to buy any set or legendary item ( for lvl 60 ) because they all cost billions. Yes, new drops have value. So much that you wont be able to afford it, and only the very few rich 0.5% at the top can ever afford them.
Hardly, got dragged into it by a friend for a night, but I don't like the mode.
But I don't consider your statements negative. I want drops to have value. And no, not all legendary items in hc cost billions. You're just making up ridiculous numbers again to show off so others believe you more.
edit:
Hey maka, seems we think similar about his hc statements. Though I think he wanted to make it sound bad (when it actually is great)
Calling peoples opinions stupid is shooting yourself in the foot if you are trying to win an argument.
There is no argument and no winning here. We all are not in a position where we realy have any influence on what blizzard is gonna do, so all we can do is exchange ideas. And yes, calling a idiot a idiot will not make you popular amongst idiots. But they are not my targeted audience anyway.
Well, the AH in itself is fine, it's just the part of the game that reveals some flaws and puts them right in your face.
That's exactly what I said and what everybody is ridiculing ( in their own ignorance ).
I am not saying that the game is perfect or that it can not be improved. I am just saying that removig the AH ( or drastically reducing it ) is not the improvement we are looking for.
It's a very difficult balancing act and the more players the game has, the harder it is to balance. I dont know if we will ever see a solution that everybody is happy with, I hardly doubt it in fact. Unless they split the game up much much more.
What I know is that if we remove the AH. trading will happen elsewhere ( like on this forum ). If we make items bind on account once they are put in the AH, people will trade outside the AH again. This wont change the game though, people will still buy items to resell ( just outside the game ), people will still have chars quadrillion times more powerfull than our chars, there will still be a selected few items that are godly and the rest will mainly be trash. All that is different is that you can not compare it that easily ingame any more, therefore it is easier to stay ignorant for people who chose so. But that ignorance does not change the facts.
BoA from AH use won't solve anything. It will just force people to use non-AH methods to trade.
Some people think that you just make anything exchanged in any manner BoA but that's not likely something they'll implement as it severely impinges upon the Diablo tradition.
- It's like buying a game at a gamestop, play it for a week and get your money back before the returndate expires...
Let the flippers hit the floor.
Are you suggesting that buying low and selling high destroys economies? Because EVERY OTHER ECONOMY IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD begs to disagree. It sounds to me like you believe that someone who buys a new TV on eBay and only pays $25 for it should be criminalized for ruining the economy.
What you demonize is just a natural part of auctioning. Just go to any brick-and-mortar auction. Some items sell above their actual value, some sell below. This is life, and it doesn't ruin anything. Trying to blame a very natural part of an economy for the ills of the world is just completely ignorant of .... how everything actually works.
I mean, in all seriousness, if I'm a "car guy" and I find a 1967 Mustang on eBay for $1000 but I know it's worth $5000 and, through the luck of the draw, I manage to purchase it for $1250 and immediately resell it for $5000.... are you saying that is causing the economy to falter? Because, if so, I have to severely disagree. And I'm pretty sure every economist would severely disagree as well. It sounds great to blame YOUR economic problems on people who are flipping items, but it just doesn't hold any sort of water when you look at it under a microscope.
Maybe we should arrest the Pawn Stars too. Those guys are always buying low and selling high... they're clearly destroying the Las Vegas economy.
EDIT
In fact, the whole idea of flipping is the entire basis of the stock market. And, while you could argue that Wall Street is fucking the economy up, it's not because of simple stock purchases. It's because of the sinister behind-closed-doors shit that goes on.
People have been flipping real estate for a very long time without any significant detriment to the market. There are few things which truly aren't flippable. You rarely see any actual damage to the economies as a result, though.
I'm sure that if flipping is so detrimental to economies that you could give some examples. Don't worry, I won't wait, because they don't exist outside of people who got their economics degrees from a Happy Meal pontificating on Diablo 3 forums.
I don't think everyone would suddenly visit other sites. And having an active trading subforum on dfans wouldn't be that bad either.
I also like Elendiro's view of items being a one-way investment. Therefore why not just kill two birds with one stone and also make them BoE?
1 : cause items are not a one way investment.
2 : you obviously have not gone trough the hassle of forum trading in older games. It's terrible and having a ingame trading tool is a great thing that we should be greatful for.
Also : if you take out the ingame trading tool, how will you balance items and stats and drop rates ? Obviously some people will not bother to find outside the game trade sources, while others will be filthy rich on these trade forums. Will you balance around selffound only ? Or keep the balance as it is now ? I can tell you, whatever you do, people will complain. Ingame trade tool is the only way to go. Everything else is wishful thinking and totally last millennium.
Or you just go full selffound, which maybe 1% of the player will keep playing and the rest finds new games.
A person who has flipped, got 1 000 elite kills, 300k dps and mp10 viable.
vs.
A person who has played and found items for himself for 200 hours, around 10 000 elite kills, 150k dps and absolutely not mp10 viable...
A person who aquired quite alot of knowledge about the game and used said knowledge to cleverly trade his way up to the riches
vs
somebody who brainlessly grinds monsters for way more time than is good for him
Yes, the first should be rewarded IMO. But you see, that's just a opinion, The difference is that I dont call for parts of the game to be removed.
All that complaining about how easy it is to get to super godly level with just a bit of AH flipping... First off you gotta have some starting gold, for which you have to play the game first. Second you have to actually know what you are doing, or you'll just be wasting gold. Then you need the time and the patience and the luck to find the good deals that make you rich, and then you need to find somebody who actually pays the full price for the item.
All in all, it is not that easy, or we would all be billionaires.
( Yes, some use bots for it, which is cheating and totally undefendable. And yes, some throw huge ammounts of money at the game to instabuy their way to the top, but I dont think that that is too many players. Who has a few 10'000 lying around waiting for some pixels ? I dont think that these two cathegories should influence the discussion, one being cheating and forbidden and the other being very rare. )
you obviously have not gone trough the hassle of forum trading in older games. It's terrible and having a ingame trading tool is a great thing that we should be greatful for.
Well, I was there in D2, spend some years with DAoC and during that time Blizz invented the AH in WoW. It was a good idea and still is, I'm not saying otherwise. Like I said, it's not the root of the problem, but it shows us problems, we otherwise might not see.
The biggest item problem is the overabundance of everything. We have gold sinks and keep getting more of them (like the recently introduced Marquise gems), so gold retains its value. Yet there is no item sink, therefore we get more Mempos every day.
And it is really disheartening for an average player to find such a fabulous item only to find out it's worthless because there are millions of it already.
So, KISS (keep it simple stupid) version:
AH: good,
flippers: not nice, but somehow natural
resellability/reuseability of items: very, very bad
Oh and if you played WoW, you might notice, that the first two aspects are the same there while the third isn't.
A person who aquired quite alot of knowledge about the game and used said knowledge to cleverly trade his way up to the riches
vs
somebody who brainlessly grinds monsters for way more time than is good for him
Yes, the first should be rewarded IMO. But you see, that's just a opinion, The difference is that I dont call for parts of the game to be removed.
It's your opionion, ok, but I disagree. You're right that it does take some skill to make money on the AH. You can either check out guides to learn, which items and stats are useful (and therefore in demand) for actually playing the game or you could just extract those informations directly from the AH by studying the item/price ratios there. But being good at the trading aspect of the game shouldn't equal being much better in the Diablo killing part of the game. It's like saying you want the best driver to win a chess tournament.
My point is, playing the AH is not playing Diablo. It's part of it like the toilet is part of an appartment. It's a good place to go for when you need to get rid of something. And for that, it's a vast improvement over medieval outhouses. But I don't want to spend the entire f**ng day there!
I DO care that my experience when I play the game by.....actually PLAYING the game (alien concept, I know) is being negatively affected (by way of reduced drop rates) to accommodate those that want to spend hours looking at listings in the auction house.
The best (but hardest) way to make us less "AH dependant" would be to create an alternate path of progression. This way, items would only be half of the problem and we could make our character better by playing the game. Think about it a little like parangon levels but with a variety of skills/perks/bonuses (many affecting gameplay) chosen along the way.
IMO we allready have leveling and paragon leveling, that's enugh progressing trough playing. ( Beside the fact that you probably will still farm from time to time to build up some wealth and to get crafting materials etc... )
The biggest item problem is the overabundance of everything. We have gold sinks and keep getting more of them (like the recently introduced Marquise gems), so gold retains its value. Yet there is no item sink, therefore we get more Mempos every day.
And it is really disheartening for an average player to find such a fabulous item only to find out it's worthless because there are millions of it already.
Ok, few things to think about here imo.
1 : More mempos every day can be a good thing, specially for people who dont have billions to throw around. As it is atm, low, middle and high class items keep getting cheaper, and only the top end highest best items keep getting more expensive. Which is good IMO, otherwise only the richest players would be wearing good gear.
2 : We need better and worse items to make the game somewhat interesting. Not everybody should wear a mempo, or they can hand out free mempos rigth at the character creation. And I think that is more motivating than disheartening.
3 : What do you mean by "average" players ? There is a little bit of a skill factor in this game, but most of the time the quality of your gear is directly related to the time invested. Which again is a good thing IMO. ( Of course not talking about people botting, but I think we all agree that this is so bad that we dont need to talk about it. )
It doesn't matter if trading would take place outside of the game, in forums.
<snip>
I don't care that people have better gear than me, I don't care that "people would still flip and trade and buy their gear in 3rd party sites".
I've had sufficient back-and-forth to understand that you truly feel this way. I fully agree with you here, for the record.
But, the cynic in me simply says that MOST people who whine about the AH (and I'm not calling you a whiner) are really whining about other people's gear. That's why they come up with derogatory phrases like "pay to win" for RMAH users and portray flipping as the downfall of modern societies despite history demonstrating that it has next to no actual effect on anything.
There's a chasmic difference between someone like you who wants to "just play the game" - which is a COMPLETELY non-controversial position to have - and someone who wants the AH gone so that people who acquired better gear would be penalized. When I read this thread, I can't help but get the feeling that you are the ONLY person who has fallen into the first category. I mean this whole thread is about penalizing flippers (which existed in D2 online and didn't "destroy" the economy) through means that also penalize everyone else.
Gear is so much more visible, not just because of the AH, but because of diabloprogress and the armory. It's as if people see others gear and, in their head, determine that paper doll DPS is the competitive aspect of the game and that because some hairy, sweaty dude spent six weeks flipping items on the GAH that they've been inherently wronged and are deserving of divine retribution. And, while I completely and totally agree with you that finding items for yourself HAS to be balanced in a way that feels rewarding, enjoyable, and engaging... I just don't agree with the other chuckleheads who take it to the next level and want to go around busting the kneecaps of people who have more gold than they do.
If some guy wants to sit around all day flipping, well... good for him I guess. It's not my thing, but I'm not going to tell him he can't do it (provided he's not botting, if he's botting he can go to hell). I just want "my" way to feel rewarding too. I don't need 700 billion gold to "win" at this game so I don't really want to bother flipping items. That's my choice, much as engaging in scrolling through lists of items ad infintum is his choice.
My point is, playing the AH is not playing Diablo. It's part of it like the toilet is part of an appartment. It's a good place to go for when you need to get rid of something. And for that, it's a vast improvement over medieval outhouses. But I don't want to spend the entire f**ng day there!
You dont have to. Go kill shit all day. You will find stuff to sell, and you will make gold. Nobody is forcing you to play the AH. There are even players who only play selffound. If that's what you want, there is nobody stopping you from doing it.
Items could turn "account bound" upon purchase from the AH.
Either
a)permanently
or
b)temporarily (like 3 weeks, tuneable in all directions)
This would create a huge item sink and remove flipping from the game. Either you need the item or you don't buy it, period. It's similar to the WoW "BoE" system, now, that I think about it, though "BoE" wouldn't be enough for D3, for obvious reasons.
If you think "Wait, what if I want to purchase an item now and resell it once I get something better?!", please imagine how much you'd actually lose. Odds are, that by the time, that you dump an item, it doesn't have nearly the value it had, when you purchased it.
What are your thoughts? I know, the AH-players wouldn't like it, it's like taking away their game. Are these the majority of players these days? After most of the monster slayers left
edit:
copy/pasting this from my latest response for those, who only read starting posts because I consider it a good summary of my pov:
I kind of agree with this.
I could reduce my suggested item sink to "bind to account on equip", that would be the bare minimum and a pure improvement of the game with no unwarranted penalties to anyone.
That would keep trading and flipping alive and working at full capacity. The problem of this is, that time spent on the AH would remain more rewarding than time spent playing, which is one of the game's biggest issues. Tackling this is important, imo. And via my original suggestion, Blizz could kill those two birds with one stone.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
In the end, if you think about it, it doesn't really change much. I really don't like the AH and wouldn't mind if it would be gone by tomorrow, but it wouldn't help me to get more fun out of the game at all. I don't re-sell my old items (too lazy, just salvage them), and I don't care about flippers. The best items in the game are sold outside of the AH anyways, and items worth less than a million aren't probably worth to be put on the AH again anyways. So, this would only affect (and annoy) a limited amount of players, but it wouldn't address the root of the problem.
Also, the auction house is a perfectly valid form of trading. Honestly your post reeks of self found elitism. Flipping yes is a consequence of implementing an AH but if anything flippers lose out on their experience. I don't understand why flipping hurts someone who doesn't use the AH.
I don't think, it'd be the be all end all cure for the game, but I consider it an improvement nonetheless.
It's targeted at players like me, who want to spend most of their time killing monsters, but would also like to sell their finds via the AH and buy some upgrades from the money gained that way. It would be elitist to call this "the way it's meant to be played", but I think (or hope) that most players, who bought the game a year ago, wanted that.
I really think, there would be economical benefits to anyone in that group of players I described. With so many items out of the system after useage, prices would never be so low. And new drops would have value, because there wouldn't already be millions of the same item in play. Currently, even if you do hit the jackpot and find, say, a Mempo, it's still not even worth a million (unless that 1 random stat is crit). Thus you can't "live" from your own drops, which results in not being able to purchase other peoples wares, yadda yadda yadda.
So the item sink (which wasn't my idea, it was mentioned by maka in my last thread) would be the overwhelming benefit. Removing flippers (mostly bots) from the game would be more of a -beneficial- side effect.
After all, if there is a good deal on the item that I want, I don't want it taken away and price-corrected by some guy who never even met Diablo in a game named after him
That's a little egoistic, though, but feel free to think the same way
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
The AH is nothing but a trading platform. If you are not happy with itemisation or drop rates or your drop luck or whatever, then complain about those, not about the AH.
This part is particularily stupid. Imagine somebody buying a 2 billion item and finding a 5 billion upgrade later. I am pretty sure he wants his original 2bill back by selling his item. It's not his fault that you never traded anything valuable. Most oher people have.
That's pretty much the situation we have in HC. I dont know how much you played it, but the effect is not what you imagine. Items are RARE. You will not be able to buy any set or legendary item ( for lvl 60 ) because they all cost billions. Yes, new drops have value. So much that you wont be able to afford it, and only the very few rich 0.5% at the top can ever afford them.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Twoflower-2131/hero/47336841
Anyways, I don't think any changes should be made until itemization 2.0. We should see how that effects the economy before making irreversible changes.
So much this. So very very very much this.
Just to let you know, even Blizzard disagrees with you.
http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/03/28/jay-wilson-wed-turn-off-diablo-iiis-auction-house-if-we-could
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7980249170?page=20#387
... and many other sources if you wanna ask Google.
Well, the AH in itself is fine, it's just the part of the game that reveals some flaws and puts them right in your face. Comparing this to a complaint about drop luck is rather childish. Yes, this is offensive, which I usually don't like to be, but it seems, I have to adapt.
That's what I meant. I'd say, it's stupid to make up a scenario that could affect about 0.0001% of the playerbase and then has a chance to happen of about 0.0001% again in an effort to prove something wrong.
So you paid 2b for a Manticore 6 months ago and got a better one now? Guess what that original one is worth now. And seriously, who would complain about finding a 5b item right after spending 2b on another one?
Also, if it were the norm to not recycle items, like it's been in WoW for ages, nobody would even bother about a refund for their old stuff.
Hardly, got dragged into it by a friend for a night, but I don't like the mode.
But I don't consider your statements negative. I want drops to have value. And no, not all legendary items in hc cost billions. You're just making up ridiculous numbers again to show off so others believe you more.
edit:
Hey maka, seems we think similar about his hc statements. Though I think he wanted to make it sound bad (when it actually is great)
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
If you cared to read you would see that I never said anything like that. I was comparing economies.
There is no argument and no winning here. We all are not in a position where we realy have any influence on what blizzard is gonna do, so all we can do is exchange ideas. And yes, calling a idiot a idiot will not make you popular amongst idiots. But they are not my targeted audience anyway.
Then on topic :
We need ladders for that reason IMO.
That's exactly what I said and what everybody is ridiculing ( in their own ignorance ).
I am not saying that the game is perfect or that it can not be improved. I am just saying that removig the AH ( or drastically reducing it ) is not the improvement we are looking for.
It's a very difficult balancing act and the more players the game has, the harder it is to balance. I dont know if we will ever see a solution that everybody is happy with, I hardly doubt it in fact. Unless they split the game up much much more.
What I know is that if we remove the AH. trading will happen elsewhere ( like on this forum ). If we make items bind on account once they are put in the AH, people will trade outside the AH again. This wont change the game though, people will still buy items to resell ( just outside the game ), people will still have chars quadrillion times more powerfull than our chars, there will still be a selected few items that are godly and the rest will mainly be trash. All that is different is that you can not compare it that easily ingame any more, therefore it is easier to stay ignorant for people who chose so. But that ignorance does not change the facts.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Twoflower-2131/hero/47336841
d'oh
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
Some people think that you just make anything exchanged in any manner BoA but that's not likely something they'll implement as it severely impinges upon the Diablo tradition.
Are you suggesting that buying low and selling high destroys economies? Because EVERY OTHER ECONOMY IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD begs to disagree. It sounds to me like you believe that someone who buys a new TV on eBay and only pays $25 for it should be criminalized for ruining the economy.
What you demonize is just a natural part of auctioning. Just go to any brick-and-mortar auction. Some items sell above their actual value, some sell below. This is life, and it doesn't ruin anything. Trying to blame a very natural part of an economy for the ills of the world is just completely ignorant of .... how everything actually works.
I mean, in all seriousness, if I'm a "car guy" and I find a 1967 Mustang on eBay for $1000 but I know it's worth $5000 and, through the luck of the draw, I manage to purchase it for $1250 and immediately resell it for $5000.... are you saying that is causing the economy to falter? Because, if so, I have to severely disagree. And I'm pretty sure every economist would severely disagree as well. It sounds great to blame YOUR economic problems on people who are flipping items, but it just doesn't hold any sort of water when you look at it under a microscope.
Maybe we should arrest the Pawn Stars too. Those guys are always buying low and selling high... they're clearly destroying the Las Vegas economy.
EDIT
In fact, the whole idea of flipping is the entire basis of the stock market. And, while you could argue that Wall Street is fucking the economy up, it's not because of simple stock purchases. It's because of the sinister behind-closed-doors shit that goes on.
People have been flipping real estate for a very long time without any significant detriment to the market. There are few things which truly aren't flippable. You rarely see any actual damage to the economies as a result, though.
I'm sure that if flipping is so detrimental to economies that you could give some examples. Don't worry, I won't wait, because they don't exist outside of people who got their economics degrees from a Happy Meal pontificating on Diablo 3 forums.
I don't think everyone would suddenly visit other sites. And having an active trading subforum on dfans wouldn't be that bad either.
I also like Elendiro's view of items being a one-way investment. Therefore why not just kill two birds with one stone and also make them BoE?
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
1 : cause items are not a one way investment.
2 : you obviously have not gone trough the hassle of forum trading in older games. It's terrible and having a ingame trading tool is a great thing that we should be greatful for.
Also : if you take out the ingame trading tool, how will you balance items and stats and drop rates ? Obviously some people will not bother to find outside the game trade sources, while others will be filthy rich on these trade forums. Will you balance around selffound only ? Or keep the balance as it is now ? I can tell you, whatever you do, people will complain. Ingame trade tool is the only way to go. Everything else is wishful thinking and totally last millennium.
Or you just go full selffound, which maybe 1% of the player will keep playing and the rest finds new games.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Twoflower-2131/hero/47336841
A person who aquired quite alot of knowledge about the game and used said knowledge to cleverly trade his way up to the riches
vs
somebody who brainlessly grinds monsters for way more time than is good for him
Yes, the first should be rewarded IMO. But you see, that's just a opinion, The difference is that I dont call for parts of the game to be removed.
All that complaining about how easy it is to get to super godly level with just a bit of AH flipping... First off you gotta have some starting gold, for which you have to play the game first. Second you have to actually know what you are doing, or you'll just be wasting gold. Then you need the time and the patience and the luck to find the good deals that make you rich, and then you need to find somebody who actually pays the full price for the item.
All in all, it is not that easy, or we would all be billionaires.
( Yes, some use bots for it, which is cheating and totally undefendable. And yes, some throw huge ammounts of money at the game to instabuy their way to the top, but I dont think that that is too many players. Who has a few 10'000 lying around waiting for some pixels ? I dont think that these two cathegories should influence the discussion, one being cheating and forbidden and the other being very rare. )
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Twoflower-2131/hero/47336841
Well, I was there in D2, spend some years with DAoC and during that time Blizz invented the AH in WoW. It was a good idea and still is, I'm not saying otherwise. Like I said, it's not the root of the problem, but it shows us problems, we otherwise might not see.
The biggest item problem is the overabundance of everything. We have gold sinks and keep getting more of them (like the recently introduced Marquise gems), so gold retains its value. Yet there is no item sink, therefore we get more Mempos every day.
And it is really disheartening for an average player to find such a fabulous item only to find out it's worthless because there are millions of it already.
So, KISS (keep it simple stupid) version:
AH: good,
flippers: not nice, but somehow natural
resellability/reuseability of items: very, very bad
Oh and if you played WoW, you might notice, that the first two aspects are the same there while the third isn't.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
It's your opionion, ok, but I disagree. You're right that it does take some skill to make money on the AH. You can either check out guides to learn, which items and stats are useful (and therefore in demand) for actually playing the game or you could just extract those informations directly from the AH by studying the item/price ratios there. But being good at the trading aspect of the game shouldn't equal being much better in the Diablo killing part of the game. It's like saying you want the best driver to win a chess tournament.
My point is, playing the AH is not playing Diablo. It's part of it like the toilet is part of an appartment. It's a good place to go for when you need to get rid of something. And for that, it's a vast improvement over medieval outhouses. But I don't want to spend the entire f**ng day there!
absolutely agree
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
IMO we allready have leveling and paragon leveling, that's enugh progressing trough playing. ( Beside the fact that you probably will still farm from time to time to build up some wealth and to get crafting materials etc... )
Ok, few things to think about here imo.
1 : More mempos every day can be a good thing, specially for people who dont have billions to throw around. As it is atm, low, middle and high class items keep getting cheaper, and only the top end highest best items keep getting more expensive. Which is good IMO, otherwise only the richest players would be wearing good gear.
2 : We need better and worse items to make the game somewhat interesting. Not everybody should wear a mempo, or they can hand out free mempos rigth at the character creation. And I think that is more motivating than disheartening.
3 : What do you mean by "average" players ? There is a little bit of a skill factor in this game, but most of the time the quality of your gear is directly related to the time invested. Which again is a good thing IMO. ( Of course not talking about people botting, but I think we all agree that this is so bad that we dont need to talk about it. )
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Twoflower-2131/hero/47336841
I've had sufficient back-and-forth to understand that you truly feel this way. I fully agree with you here, for the record.
But, the cynic in me simply says that MOST people who whine about the AH (and I'm not calling you a whiner) are really whining about other people's gear. That's why they come up with derogatory phrases like "pay to win" for RMAH users and portray flipping as the downfall of modern societies despite history demonstrating that it has next to no actual effect on anything.
There's a chasmic difference between someone like you who wants to "just play the game" - which is a COMPLETELY non-controversial position to have - and someone who wants the AH gone so that people who acquired better gear would be penalized. When I read this thread, I can't help but get the feeling that you are the ONLY person who has fallen into the first category. I mean this whole thread is about penalizing flippers (which existed in D2 online and didn't "destroy" the economy) through means that also penalize everyone else.
Gear is so much more visible, not just because of the AH, but because of diabloprogress and the armory. It's as if people see others gear and, in their head, determine that paper doll DPS is the competitive aspect of the game and that because some hairy, sweaty dude spent six weeks flipping items on the GAH that they've been inherently wronged and are deserving of divine retribution. And, while I completely and totally agree with you that finding items for yourself HAS to be balanced in a way that feels rewarding, enjoyable, and engaging... I just don't agree with the other chuckleheads who take it to the next level and want to go around busting the kneecaps of people who have more gold than they do.
If some guy wants to sit around all day flipping, well... good for him I guess. It's not my thing, but I'm not going to tell him he can't do it (provided he's not botting, if he's botting he can go to hell). I just want "my" way to feel rewarding too. I don't need 700 billion gold to "win" at this game so I don't really want to bother flipping items. That's my choice, much as engaging in scrolling through lists of items ad infintum is his choice.
You dont have to. Go kill shit all day. You will find stuff to sell, and you will make gold. Nobody is forcing you to play the AH. There are even players who only play selffound. If that's what you want, there is nobody stopping you from doing it.
Same goes for Maka. But I dont like his attitude.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Twoflower-2131/hero/47336841