I'm a big fan of cooldown reduction, and figured this deserved it's own thread. Although I personally don't have RoS beta, I've been very interested in a few things after watching streams since its release - mostly cd reduction.
We need to get some real theory crafting going. I'd greatly appreciate it if someone could post real numbers regarding values of CD reduction rolls for items (ie gloves can roll .2 -.8% reduction), gem cd reduction values, and max reduction through paragon points. Last time I checked you could spend 50 points which equaled 5%. Not sure on that, could be way off.
All classes can spec into CD reduction. All classes have skills that would be badass (and probably not too broken due to enchanting into it = losing other stats) if freed from cooldown. Right now I play a 0Dog WD and when I feel like goofing around, 0Wall WD. These builds are based around reducing the cooldown of skills, but through items...unlike CM Wiz which just broke the game due to frost nova/op passive reduc. I think it would be really cool to stack some CD reduction and be able to drop a piece or two off the gear required to make these spells have 0 cd. If I could remove 7 seconds worth of cooldown from all skills (targeting summon dogs here), I'd be able to free up a ring slot or a helmet slot for my 0dog set up. Similar ideology behind the 0wall gearing. Pick up a new legendary with an awesome new proc or ability - but I'd lose my ability to spam main spell. Just respec into cooldow reduction - item fits into build. Furthermore, I've been DROOLING over the thought of having zombie nova reduced to 0 sec cd. Can you imagine zombie nova with 0 cd!? It would look like wizard explosive blast So, gather as many items that reduce cooldown of that skill as possible, and then spec/enchant fully into cooldown reduction even more. With WD's cd reduction passive on kill, 0 cd zombie nova IS POSSIBLE. o.OOr how about a barb that could leap around with no cooldown? Just because! If you stacked full cooldown reduction, how close could you get? What about skills for Demon Hunter, Monk, and Wizard.
Soj, Skullies, and Mara's can all roll at lvl 70 now. Keep that in mind.
It's time we had some #^$%^@%@^ fun in this game. Think hard about what could be possible, not just in the sense of whats optimal but what would be VIABLE and fun. Looks like thats the only way we are going to have any longevity in this game without trading. Please blow this thread upppppp hmu in game mathias#1223
Personally, as a Witchdoctor, I'd be pretty excited about Mass Confusion having no CD. Paranoia is pretty yummy.
Excellent idea - I'd even take 3-5 seconds of cool down there. Near perma 20% dmg buff and moderate cc attained through creative gearing and sacrificing of boring pure dmg stats via enchanting. other runes for MC suddenly seem more viable with a shorter cd (key word viable).
I'd like to take a quick second to point out this isn't about having strong enough gear to make weak spells strong. The thread could potentially go there, and that's not what we are discussing. This is about reducing cool downs
Continuing on with WD - we just got a new piranha spell. One of the runes turns it into a wave - having that as my main ability would be really exciting I think
I've actually been a big fan of Diablo 3 having cooldowns. I'm not too versed on MMOs and other games the mechanic was lifted from, but it just encourages more strategic gameplay and timing. Diablo 1 and 2 had mana potions, and as long as you stocked enough on you, you could spam spells/skills all you wanted. Which was fine, if you were playing solo and had to farm gold or items to buy more potions, but I'm sure people traded for mana potions in bulk all the time. And that's not a low blow at trading, it's a jab at mana potions making spamming every skill in the game so easy.
That being said, I'm also very interested in Cooldown Reductions, Paragon Point usage in particular. I don't know if there's a way to completely kill cooldowns, or how high they can stack, but yeah, CDR on items and through Paragon Points will open up builds drastically.
I know there's a kind of WD focus in this thread so far, but the way Blizzard changed the Archon mechanic for the Wizard is another perfect example. I haven't used Archon in quite a while, and I know people seemed to like the 100% uptime they could get. But I really like how they changed it. You get more damage the more you kill, but with items and Paragon Points that reduce Cooldown, you may not be able to keep it up 100% of the time, but you can still use it more, making a build centered around Archon extremely viable in the expansion.
Another great example...the Barbarian's Rage skills. Those have pretty huge Cooldowns, as they should, but I'm sure if you found enough CDR items and put points into it, you could have Barbs running around with two, maybe even three Rage skills on their active bar.
Something to consider - right now I'm already giving up stats to have reduced cool down through items, and I'm not above losing more. I understand gearing mechanics in ros. re read that twice if you feel the need
anyone able to find some numbers regarding gem / para / item rolls? I really need them.
I'd like to imagine completing builds in this manner without the use of shrine gloves, they are neat but will probably be nerfed to oblivion (inc bonus 30 seconds to shrine buffs) in the usual blizzard way
there are TONS of abilities that would be worthy of your "main skill" if they had their cd reduced. Many more group/utility spells Would see action as well. We might see people playing without "necessary" abilities because others would replace them in a viable way. In conjunction with picking up random legendaries, this would make for some seriously creative customization. Keep the ideas coming, this thread has incredible potential if the right people see it.
D3 is already based on reduction of cool downs for me. That's my gameplay - my endgame. I make crazy builds, but sacrifice some damage to do so.. I don't even have the stat available yet /maniacal cackle
seems like you guys understand pretty well - as the mentality is pretty simple. I don't want to eliminate all cool downs from all spells obviously, balance would seem to work itself out though. Spells over "x" seconds would still have a downtime, mostly the ones that already have a large baseline cool down for a reason. Teoi's last few words pretty much hit the nail on the head.
My gut feeling is that 100% CDR = 50% off the CD. Translated to English: 100% CDR means you can cast the spell twice as much... sorta like "haste" in WoW. It would be really good to get confirmation on this, though.
CDR works like this, if you have 20% on skill u get a cd down from 10 to 8. if you then have 25% CDR in helm you get 8x0.25 more reduction and so on
This can't be right. CDR of 100% would mean skills have no CD. Very definitely wrong.
Because...0sec CD is unheard of in this game?
From what I saw in the Beta streams I watched, it looked like you wouldn't be able to get near 100% CDR without an Empowerment shrine, but maybe that's incorrect. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me that 100% CDR = 0 sec CD though.
CDR works like this, if you have 20% on skill u get a cd down from 10 to 8. if you then have 25% CDR in helm you get 8x0.25 more reduction and so on
This can't be right. CDR of 100% would mean skills have no CD. Very definitely wrong.
Because...0sec CD is unheard of in this game?
[/quote]
From what I saw in the Beta streams I watched, it looked like you wouldn't be able to get near 100% CDR without an Empowerment shrine, but maybe that's incorrect. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me that 100% CDR = 0 sec CD though.
Those builds are called CMWW and WW. Are you sure you want things like that in game? Think of Archon or Beserker's rage with zero cooldown. It would break the game all over again. Or, if they apply minus CD runes before CDR, it devalues those runes significantly as CDR improves, doesn't it?
right now i have ITEMS that allow me to use zombie wall with 0 cooldown. not the rune specifically, the skill itself. with enough cooldown redcution, i could IN THEORY reduce the cooldown for other runes (granted i can get enough seconds, 12 available through items) to zero, or really really close? i'd be overshooting the 10 second requirement of wall by 2. so whatever maximum reduction from cooldown stat would be, - 2 seconds FOR THAT SKILL - ALL runes. same idea behind 0 dog.
regardless, if we had enough cd reduc, this could open up rotation style builds - or even better - situational builds. i bet if you stack enough cd reduction you can get toad of hugeness to a pretty low cd. i think some fun could be had there. many runes for spells without cooldowns have unique, short cooldowns specifically. use 3 or 4 very short rotational cooldown skills that would otherwise be unused blah blah - thats the idea im looking for here.
as stated...spells with the longest cooldowns will still have the longest cooldown in your build, in relation x to y etc etc. not trying to break the game here, nor am i looking to eradicate cooldowns entirely. im just trying to think of new ways to play and design builds, im amazed at the people already trying to reject a simple theorycrafting thread.
Test this yourself. Put any number of paragon points into cooldown reduction. Put any level diamond in a helm or throw on Evocation if you're a wizard.
If I have 6% in paragon points and a diamond with 8% cooldown, I'll have a total of:
Thanks for your answer Jaetch, I already feared for this outcome, wish they could make it additive...
Well, back to the drawing table I guess.
I don't think that they will ever make CDR additive and reason has already been explained here in the thread: Archon, CMWW, 0dogs, etc. Blizzard knew that having "reduce X seconds cooldown on y ability" would result in people stacking those to get back to perma-archon/freeze/etc.
Could they have just ignored those abilities in those cooldown options? Sure. However, the way that they have implemented CDR now allows for flexibility in all skills and may allow for builds we have anticipated yet. Maybe you can get your CD low enough to come out of archon, freeze mobs, then stun them, then pop back into Archon when cooldown is up.
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We need to get some real theory crafting going. I'd greatly appreciate it if someone could post real numbers regarding values of CD reduction rolls for items (ie gloves can roll .2 -.8% reduction), gem cd reduction values, and max reduction through paragon points. Last time I checked you could spend 50 points which equaled 5%. Not sure on that, could be way off.
All classes can spec into CD reduction. All classes have skills that would be badass (and probably not too broken due to enchanting into it = losing other stats) if freed from cooldown. Right now I play a 0Dog WD and when I feel like goofing around, 0Wall WD. These builds are based around reducing the cooldown of skills, but through items...unlike CM Wiz which just broke the game due to frost nova/op passive reduc. I think it would be really cool to stack some CD reduction and be able to drop a piece or two off the gear required to make these spells have 0 cd. If I could remove 7 seconds worth of cooldown from all skills (targeting summon dogs here), I'd be able to free up a ring slot or a helmet slot for my 0dog set up. Similar ideology behind the 0wall gearing. Pick up a new legendary with an awesome new proc or ability - but I'd lose my ability to spam main spell. Just respec into cooldow reduction - item fits into build.
Furthermore, I've been DROOLING over the thought of having zombie nova reduced to 0 sec cd. Can you imagine zombie nova with 0 cd!? It would look like wizard explosive blast So, gather as many items that reduce cooldown of that skill as possible, and then spec/enchant fully into cooldown reduction even more. With WD's cd reduction passive on kill, 0 cd zombie nova IS POSSIBLE. o.O Or how about a barb that could leap around with no cooldown? Just because! If you stacked full cooldown reduction, how close could you get? What about skills for Demon Hunter, Monk, and Wizard.
Soj, Skullies, and Mara's can all roll at lvl 70 now. Keep that in mind.
It's time we had some #^$%^@%@^ fun in this game. Think hard about what could be possible, not just in the sense of whats optimal but what would be VIABLE and fun. Looks like thats the only way we are going to have any longevity in this game without trading.
Please blow this thread upppppp
hmu in game mathias#1223
I'd like to take a quick second to point out this isn't about having strong enough gear to make weak spells strong. The thread could potentially go there, and that's not what we are discussing. This is about reducing cool downs
Continuing on with WD - we just got a new piranha spell. One of the runes turns it into a wave - having that as my main ability would be really exciting I think
That being said, I'm also very interested in Cooldown Reductions, Paragon Point usage in particular. I don't know if there's a way to completely kill cooldowns, or how high they can stack, but yeah, CDR on items and through Paragon Points will open up builds drastically.
I know there's a kind of WD focus in this thread so far, but the way Blizzard changed the Archon mechanic for the Wizard is another perfect example. I haven't used Archon in quite a while, and I know people seemed to like the 100% uptime they could get. But I really like how they changed it. You get more damage the more you kill, but with items and Paragon Points that reduce Cooldown, you may not be able to keep it up 100% of the time, but you can still use it more, making a build centered around Archon extremely viable in the expansion.
Another great example...the Barbarian's Rage skills. Those have pretty huge Cooldowns, as they should, but I'm sure if you found enough CDR items and put points into it, you could have Barbs running around with two, maybe even three Rage skills on their active bar.
I'd love to see that, :-)
Something to consider - right now I'm already giving up stats to have reduced cool down through items, and I'm not above losing more. I understand gearing mechanics in ros. re read that twice if you feel the need
anyone able to find some numbers regarding gem / para / item rolls? I really need them.
there are TONS of abilities that would be worthy of your "main skill" if they had their cd reduced. Many more group/utility spells Would see action as well. We might see people playing without "necessary" abilities because others would replace them in a viable way. In conjunction with picking up random legendaries, this would make for some seriously creative customization. Keep the ideas coming, this thread has incredible potential if the right people see it.
D3 is already based on reduction of cool downs for me. That's my gameplay - my endgame. I make crazy builds, but sacrifice some damage to do so.. I don't even have the stat available yet /maniacal cackle
seems like you guys understand pretty well - as the mentality is pretty simple. I don't want to eliminate all cool downs from all spells obviously, balance would seem to work itself out though. Spells over "x" seconds would still have a downtime, mostly the ones that already have a large baseline cool down for a reason. Teoi's last few words pretty much hit the nail on the head.
My gut feeling is that 100% CDR = 50% off the CD. Translated to English: 100% CDR means you can cast the spell twice as much... sorta like "haste" in WoW. It would be really good to get confirmation on this, though.
confirmation request seconded
From what I saw in the Beta streams I watched, it looked like you wouldn't be able to get near 100% CDR without an Empowerment shrine, but maybe that's incorrect. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me that 100% CDR = 0 sec CD though.
right now i have ITEMS that allow me to use zombie wall with 0 cooldown. not the rune specifically, the skill itself. with enough cooldown redcution, i could IN THEORY reduce the cooldown for other runes (granted i can get enough seconds, 12 available through items) to zero, or really really close? i'd be overshooting the 10 second requirement of wall by 2. so whatever maximum reduction from cooldown stat would be, - 2 seconds FOR THAT SKILL - ALL runes. same idea behind 0 dog.
regardless, if we had enough cd reduc, this could open up rotation style builds - or even better - situational builds. i bet if you stack enough cd reduction you can get toad of hugeness to a pretty low cd. i think some fun could be had there. many runes for spells without cooldowns have unique, short cooldowns specifically. use 3 or 4 very short rotational cooldown skills that would otherwise be unused blah blah - thats the idea im looking for here.
as stated...spells with the longest cooldowns will still have the longest cooldown in your build, in relation x to y etc etc. not trying to break the game here, nor am i looking to eradicate cooldowns entirely. im just trying to think of new ways to play and design builds, im amazed at the people already trying to reject a simple theorycrafting thread.
i want to spam zombie nova. badly.
I'll just copy and paste this explanation from another one of my posts in the official forum:
If the cooldown stats you have are as follows:
Helm: 9.5% diamond
Shoulder: 4%
Gloves: 6%
Evocation: 20%
Paragon: 10%
The calculations will be:
1 - (0.905 * 0.96 * 0.94 * 0.8 * 0.9) = 0.4119 = ~41.2%
Test this yourself. Put any number of paragon points into cooldown reduction. Put any level diamond in a helm or throw on Evocation if you're a wizard.
If I have 6% in paragon points and a diamond with 8% cooldown, I'll have a total of:
1 - (0.94 * 0.92) = 0.1352 or 13.52% cooldown.
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Could they have just ignored those abilities in those cooldown options? Sure. However, the way that they have implemented CDR now allows for flexibility in all skills and may allow for builds we have anticipated yet. Maybe you can get your CD low enough to come out of archon, freeze mobs, then stun them, then pop back into Archon when cooldown is up.