There have been questions regarding to how many skills are there in D3. Here's some facts (its obviously all susceptible to change at this point, but intriguing nonetheless).
Some observations and facts we can derive from there:
One skill tier comes at every 5 character levels. We have seen the first several tiers of skills for up to character level 20 (the first tier starts from character level 1, second from 5, third from 10, and fourth from 15)
Each skill tier has 0, 1 or 2 active spells and 3 fixed passives.
There is a big scroll bar. If maximum character level is going to be 100, that means there will be 20 (or 21) tiers of skills which cannot all be shown on one page, obviously.
If this current state of facts is of any indication, each skill tree is likely going to have around (probably a bit less) 40 active spells and exactly 60 passives.
That is 120 active spells and 180 passives per character class, not counting skill rune upgrades. Impressive!
EDIT: As Shisou has suggested, there's a possibility that tiers are capped at the maximum requirement of level 30, as they were in D2. That would make 63 passives and around 40 actives. ~100-110 skills per character. However, we can't know where and if the tiers are capped. One thing is for certain - what we can see for now is definitely not all of them (there is AT LEAST one more confirmed skill tier that we can't see). You will apparently be able to scroll down and see higher tiers just like how you had to do with WoW talent specs, and why would they put just one tier that you have to scroll down to? They would rather change the design of the page to accommodate for one more tier. Also, logic implies that since the pacing and progression in D3 is identical to D2 (length, number of acts, level cap, three difficulty modes), it is only natural that you will be able to reach the highest skill tier no sooner than level 30 as it was in D2 - which makes 7 tiers.
There are 7 different runes right? That means if you have 14 attack spells like the Wizard, you come out with 98 different skill variants on attacks alone?
Just a little disclaimer about the OP. Its possible that they made every tier cover 5 character levels just for Blizzcon so that people could try out more at once. Perhaps later tiers come on every 10 levels, or maybe they all will in the final game. That would potentially cut the amount of skills per character to 150+ instead of 300 which isn't any less mind-boggling.
If nothing is changed within the current system, its pretty much ~100-120 unique spells per character and 180 passives.
I don't even know if there can possibly BE 180 passive skills for ONE character, nevermind 5 :\
You should see WoTLK talent specs - they have the same amount of passives and some actives for up to level 80. Once (and if) WoW expansions move the cap to 100, the number will be similar. Even though in WoW you learn most of the active spells outside the actual tree system, the number is nowhere near 100 or 120 which is how much D3 promises so far. But that's where the real challenge is. Passive spells are easy to design and balance.
Dimebag, what the heck are you talking about? You know that's not right...the skill tiers have nothing to do with character level. Tier 5 skills cannot be used until you have 5 SKILL points in that skill tree already. Same for Tier 10 skills, etc. There are only 4 skill tiers total and it has no relation to character level. Haven't you been following the news?
You should see WoTLK talent specs - they have the same amount of passives and some actives for up to level 80. Once (and if) WoW expansions move the cap to 100, the number will be similar. Even though in WoW you learn most of the active spells outside the actual tree system, the number is nowhere near 100 or 120 which is how much D3 promises so far. But that's where the real challenge is. Passive spells are easy to design and balance.
If you ask me, it's impossible to design that many different passive/non-passive spells and still be very original, and unrepetitive within the same character, or whilst comparing characters. Les with no similarities is way better than a lot with an insane amount of similarities.
The tiers might cap at level 30 like in Diablo 2, though.
Good point. It's still an awful amount of skills. That would make 63 passives and around 40 actives. ~100-110 skills per character.
I just wanted to point out that people have been mislead with the current info on the skill trees reported by certain people. At this point we can't know where exactly will the cap be (if they cap it), since no active spells synergize directly anymore. So unless they plan to introduce some end-game skill runes later, I doubt they would cap it to somewhere as low as 30. But it is possible.
Quote from "mahamoti" »
Dimebag, what the heck are you talking about? You know that's not right...the skill tiers have nothing to do with character level. Tier 5 skills cannot be used until you have 5 SKILL points in that skill tree already. Same for Tier 10 skills, etc. There are only 4 skill tiers total and it has no relation to character level. Haven't you been following the news?
News? There has been no official info on what the maximum tier is. Why do you think there is a scroll bar on the right? Obviously you can't see the whole thing.
I think this claculation are totally wrong. It's the kind of thing we can only see more later or when the game. They allready say the number of active skills a normal build would get was around 6, wich is a very good number.
As we can see, there exacly 6 active skills per tree. So i guess only 2 or 3 new active skills will be added to the skill list.
Quote from name="-Mephisto"s Lament-" »
I HATE having a lot of stuff to choose from.
Man, so don't play a game thats all about choose skills, hirelings, items, upgrade for items (in the sace of sockatables), hireling's items... Diablo greatest quality is to have to choose a lot of stuff =D
Around 6 skills to be combined at any given time, not 6 same skills to be used throughout the entire game!
Anyway. There is a scrollbar and I don't see them putting the cap on the last tier any lower than level 30. After all the structure of the game progression is similar to D2 considering that the level cap is practically identical, the length is almost identical and both have the same difficulty modes.
No prerequisits for level 1 skills
Level 2 skills need 5 skill points anywhere in that tree
Level 3 skills need 10 skill points anywhere in that tree
Level 4 skills need 15 skill points anywhere in that tree
Also note that we do not know how many skill points we get per level. It's probably that we only get one, but maybe we get more? Maybe you normally get 1 point per level but get an extra point every 5 levels? We dont know.
Also note that this is the entire wizard skill tree. There are only 4 levels per tree. having any more skills than that will only complicate things too much.
Blizzard wont create too many skills for the same reason why they are only sticking to 5 classes. It would be hard to create 300 skills per character and have them all be unique enough to be effective, distinct, and powerful. They are trying to create a simple game that has lots of options (hence the runes). Creating a character with too many skills would only needlessly complicate the situation.
The number of slikks you see at the above link is probably what you will see (on average) for each character.
Someone should make a thread about that in suggestions so that the community could come up with a whole lot more ideas then 7. (obviously many will probably suck or be incompatible with the skills we don't know about yet, but it might give Blizzard some ideas)
Yeah that'd be a good thread but I don't think theyve even released the names of the 7 so far. I think we know only a few.
Well. Think of 7 different ways to modify the slow time bubble thing....
Quote from "Cosmosis" »
The number of slikks you see at the above link is probably what you will see (on average) for each character.
That is not correct. We already know there is AT LEAST one more tier of skills that you can't see there. But it could easily be two or three tiers, since they wouldn't put an entire scroll bar just to be able to scroll down to another tier - they would rather tighten up the current design. We know about 4 tiers, and we know that there is at least a 5th one. More likely 7 tiers since that would mean that you could reach the highest tier at level 30 just like in D2. Considering that pacing and progression are the same: same length, same level cap, same amount of difficulty levels.
I was hoping someone knew a bit more about them, maybe better wait till we atleast know the 7. (else it could become such a clusterfuck of a thread)
Yeah we don't even have clear cut definitions of what each rune do. Obviously multistrike adds more hits and striking adds a hit to a non attack spell, like they did with teleport.
It's fun to think of what they could do though.
Is this confirmed that each rune has an effect on each skill, or will there be some runes only meaningfully working with some skills? (sorry bout hijacking the thread, the runes aspect is one of the things i look most forward too, that and the random quests)
It isn't confirmed but I think that's what they're aiming for, all skills have a slot for a rune, even barbarian ones though they weren't activated for the demo.
LOL no way that there are 300 skills per character. Even if, it would be a GREAT FLAW in the game. Because its TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE to make them all balanced, unique, useful etc..
Yeah. I kind of oversaw the fact that the last tier will most likely require level 30. That makes 7 tiers. That is a LOT more than the current 4 that we are shown. Its official that there is at least a 5th that we don't see, and it is logical that there is a 6th due to the scrollbar (they wouldn't make a scrollbar just for one more tier?), but most likely 7 due to the fact that the progression in the game is the same as in D2 so you would be able to reach the last few skill on each tree only at level 30 and not before.
All this skill tree stuff is way over done to begin with...... Its far to easy to get your character half way and discover that you have used the points all wrong. At that point its better to start over with a new character rather than taking a lame character up to max level. People care far less about detailed character trees and more about functional game play.
I have always liked the idea of making it hard to find a spell and after a certain level I can learn a spell but after that, I want to simply add to the spell level as I wish. I do not want to have to build up 4 of 5 different sub spells that I will never use and stuff like that. Dont get my wrong, I like the concept but as far as looking through a bunch of stuff on a screen and having to flip to page 2 sub para 3 and stuff like that takes away from functional game-play.
As long as a game has a good mission/goal that makes sense and the graphic are at least average, I will play it for a long time. If all is good and the function/use is frustrating, I will quit in a few days.
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Screenshot:
http://www.joystiq.com/photos/blizzcon-2008-diablo-iii-in-depth-hands-on/1092161/full/
Some observations and facts we can derive from there:
That is 120 active spells and 180 passives per character class, not counting skill rune upgrades. Impressive!
EDIT: As Shisou has suggested, there's a possibility that tiers are capped at the maximum requirement of level 30, as they were in D2. That would make 63 passives and around 40 actives. ~100-110 skills per character. However, we can't know where and if the tiers are capped. One thing is for certain - what we can see for now is definitely not all of them (there is AT LEAST one more confirmed skill tier that we can't see). You will apparently be able to scroll down and see higher tiers just like how you had to do with WoW talent specs, and why would they put just one tier that you have to scroll down to? They would rather change the design of the page to accommodate for one more tier. Also, logic implies that since the pacing and progression in D3 is identical to D2 (length, number of acts, level cap, three difficulty modes), it is only natural that you will be able to reach the highest skill tier no sooner than level 30 as it was in D2 - which makes 7 tiers.
Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions
I can't wait.
If nothing is changed within the current system, its pretty much ~100-120 unique spells per character and 180 passives.
Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions
If you ask me, it's impossible to design that many different passive/non-passive spells and still be very original, and unrepetitive within the same character, or whilst comparing characters. Les with no similarities is way better than a lot with an insane amount of similarities.
Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions
I just wanted to point out that people have been mislead with the current info on the skill trees reported by certain people. At this point we can't know where exactly will the cap be (if they cap it), since no active spells synergize directly anymore. So unless they plan to introduce some end-game skill runes later, I doubt they would cap it to somewhere as low as 30. But it is possible.
News? There has been no official info on what the maximum tier is. Why do you think there is a scroll bar on the right? Obviously you can't see the whole thing.
As we can see, there exacly 6 active skills per tree. So i guess only 2 or 3 new active skills will be added to the skill list.
Man, so don't play a game thats all about choose skills, hirelings, items, upgrade for items (in the sace of sockatables), hireling's items... Diablo greatest quality is to have to choose a lot of stuff =D
Anyway. There is a scrollbar and I don't see them putting the cap on the last tier any lower than level 30. After all the structure of the game progression is similar to D2 considering that the level cap is practically identical, the length is almost identical and both have the same difficulty modes.
See the following link:
http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=1020
No prerequisits for level 1 skills
Level 2 skills need 5 skill points anywhere in that tree
Level 3 skills need 10 skill points anywhere in that tree
Level 4 skills need 15 skill points anywhere in that tree
Also note that we do not know how many skill points we get per level. It's probably that we only get one, but maybe we get more? Maybe you normally get 1 point per level but get an extra point every 5 levels? We dont know.
Also note that this is the entire wizard skill tree. There are only 4 levels per tree. having any more skills than that will only complicate things too much.
Blizzard wont create too many skills for the same reason why they are only sticking to 5 classes. It would be hard to create 300 skills per character and have them all be unique enough to be effective, distinct, and powerful. They are trying to create a simple game that has lots of options (hence the runes). Creating a character with too many skills would only needlessly complicate the situation.
The number of slikks you see at the above link is probably what you will see (on average) for each character.
7 different runes SO far, 5 different qualities, they said they're working on making more and possibly a 6th quality in there.
Yeah that'd be a good thread but I don't think theyve even released the names of the 7 so far. I think we know only a few.
Yeah we know 4 so far of the 7.
That is not correct. We already know there is AT LEAST one more tier of skills that you can't see there. But it could easily be two or three tiers, since they wouldn't put an entire scroll bar just to be able to scroll down to another tier - they would rather tighten up the current design. We know about 4 tiers, and we know that there is at least a 5th one. More likely 7 tiers since that would mean that you could reach the highest tier at level 30 just like in D2. Considering that pacing and progression are the same: same length, same level cap, same amount of difficulty levels.
Yeah we don't even have clear cut definitions of what each rune do. Obviously multistrike adds more hits and striking adds a hit to a non attack spell, like they did with teleport.
It's fun to think of what they could do though.
It isn't confirmed but I think that's what they're aiming for, all skills have a slot for a rune, even barbarian ones though they weren't activated for the demo.
I have always liked the idea of making it hard to find a spell and after a certain level I can learn a spell but after that, I want to simply add to the spell level as I wish. I do not want to have to build up 4 of 5 different sub spells that I will never use and stuff like that. Dont get my wrong, I like the concept but as far as looking through a bunch of stuff on a screen and having to flip to page 2 sub para 3 and stuff like that takes away from functional game-play.
As long as a game has a good mission/goal that makes sense and the graphic are at least average, I will play it for a long time. If all is good and the function/use is frustrating, I will quit in a few days.