You are not accounting for the fact that it may not roll the stats you need. I get plenty of items that are ancient but roll too many stats i do not need for my build rendering the item useless. Considering that happens more often than not even with the re-roll ability, i would argue against what you are presenting. Just because something has a less than 1% drop rate does not make it a meager 1% upgrade overall. Primal ancients are going to roll completely perfect for the stats they roll.
EX.
Primal Ancient Hellfire Amulet
+armor
+area damage
+life on hit
(Insert useless passive)
Get my point? All those stats will roll perfect but the item is useless because of how crap it rolled and no re-rolling will save it.
I can agree here. I think it's a cop out on creating actual content for the game (ie. more-to-do). The ladder grind doesn't really feel like competition. It's under-rewarding and it's insanely time-consuming. I feel the game needs a way that's rewarding for players to interact with one another that isn't a monotonous grind vs. the algorithm. A way for the players of the game to test their minds against each other, rather than against the AI.
I think Challenge Rifts will be a pretty good addition for that. No excuses, no meta, no RNG - everyone uses the same char/build and has the same rift and it's a true race; i don't think the game engine and mechanics are feasible and flexible enough for a true PvP competition. It's something i'm not interested on actually, but the system is way better than the current "i have farmed 100% efficiently for a thousand hours more than you so i win" thing.
The game needs other things to do, simply put. Story mode could be meaningful in some way but it's just left there. New zones are cool but they're there just for a couple of new bouties no one cares for. Character power is tied to GRs climbing and legendary gems since gearing reaches a plateau pretty fast even for casual players.
You're wrong about PvP. I've seen a system that would work insanely well with this game type. During Christmas Dota2 has an event where two parties are killing npc monsters from separate ends of the map. The team with the most monster kills at the end of the timer wins. It kinda takes balance vs. each other and makes that a non-issue (tuned for monster kills, looking for monster kills). Add a few on ground buffs and make a set or 2 that only drops from the game mode (or gems that drop for other slots in gear other than jewelry). Done.
The fact remains that the devs from this game haven't even tried to create a "true" competitive environment. Brawling is a cop out as well (and the worst, most sad feature of the game).
I don't think people will care about the initial balance if there are items to be had. If something gets too crazy, they can fix it later. It's all about pushing that content. Make a map. Put the players on the board.
This is my #1 complaint against the game and it has been from day one: D3 devs are pussies that don't take risks and are so out of touch with the players they don't even know what we want anymore. They just keep dropping in these "new areas" that add NOTHING to the game. Set dungeons? WTAF.
You're wrong about PvP. I've seen a system that would work insanely well with this game type. During Christmas Dota2 has an event where two parties are killing npc monsters from separate ends of the map. The team with the most monster kills at the end of the timer wins. It kinda takes balance vs. each other and makes that a non-issue (tuned for monster kills, looking for monster kills). Add a few on ground buffs and make a set or 2 that only drops from the game mode (or gems that drop for other slots in gear other than jewelry). Done.
The fact remains that the devs from this game haven't even tried to create a "true" competitive environment. Brawling is a cop out as well (and the worst, most sad feature of the game).
I don't think people will care about the initial balance if there are items to be had. If something gets too crazy, they can fix it later. It's all about pushing that content. Make a map. Put the players on the board.
This is my #1 complaint against the game and it has been from day one: D3 devs are pussies that don't take risks and are so out of touch with the players they don't even know what we want anymore. They just keep dropping in these "new areas" that add NOTHING to the game. Set dungeons? WTAF.
Ok, that is PvPvE, which was not something i had in mind. It's a really valid option.
As for new areas, they are just X2 content that was realized before the plan was scrapped and polished enough to be in game. Just to not just throw everything away.
As for set dungeons: yes, they suck for the most part. But imho the bad thing is that they have objectives realted to sepcific set powers and are basically gimmicks you find a way to cheat over. Some sort of PvE content with static maps (bigger than set dungoens) and objectives imho would be something nice to have.
Similar to you PvPvE thing, we may open a portal to a Demon stronghold and destroy the beacons keeping the portal open, just to fight waves of enemies until we defeat the generals firth and the commander in the end, then run away before the portal collapses trapping us inside.
The point is that in D3 tehre's a lot of stuff that could be done without messing up with the core systems, yet we get Ancient Ancients (and then Perfect Ancients because Ancient Ancients were a crap idea).
What are you considering endless? the legendary-ancient step? The paragon system?
Game is stagnating, that is very hard to argue against.
Seasonal rewards aren't enough to keep the interest. And plenty of players (myself included) have recently finished their maximum stash tabs allowance, even after missing 1 or 2 seasons.
No matter that you like it or not, game needs to provide incentives to those who spend more time on it; this ain't a Call of Duty game - We don't need or want to be clones of each other with same stats; if you wanna compete, just play enough to compete. Big names always manage to make great results with lower paragon.
The intent of reducing power-creep has been one of the reasons for the streamers to leave for greener pastures. They want a game where knowing about the game and investing time has real benefits. And , nowadays, streamers-elite players-competition are a big point of attracting new players to a game.
Game doesn't need pointless power creep to be made more playable by the competitive crowd. It needs more competing options, less power gap, and ways to distinguish player ability that don't involve grinding up the stat ladder.
Nearly 100% of what gets a player on the top leaderboards is pure stat. The only bit of differentiation between players at the top by the end of a season is how lucky they were fishing for rifts. Power creep doesn't make knowledge of the game any more important, nor does it make time investment any more rewarding. It's just same shit different numbers.
If you want the game to hold the attention of streamers add something like PoE map system (which let a player progress through challenges). Add a balanced competitive mode (whole point of challenge rifts). Add more competing options and wildly crazy items. Don't just tack another zero onto the end of stat values and say "Now your time matters more".
Yea I am going to have to disagree with Autocthon as well in regards to leaderboards being stat based... However you are 100% accurate in that the top spots reflect your groups GRift fishing skills/patience. But even with an op map/mob combo, if the group doesn't have the right synergy or if someone isn't properly pulling their weight, 10/10 fail - so chalk it up as an XP run, It shows when a S9 4man w/ combined para 9169 can clear a 117 while a NS9 group in the top 5 sits at a 116 - even though combined their para is 13007. Same era, meta, and skils.
Yea I am going to have to disagree with Autocthon as well in regards to leaderboards being stat based... However you are 100% accurate in that the top spots reflect your groups GRift fishing skills/patience. But even with an op map/mob combo, if the group doesn't have the right synergy or if someone isn't properly pulling their weight, 10/10 fail - so chalk it up as an XP run, It shows when a S9 4man w/ combined para 9169 can clear a 117 while a NS9 group in the top 5 sits at a 116 - even though combined their para is 13007. Same era, meta, and skils.
Yea I am going to have to disagree with Autocthon as well in regards to leaderboards being stat based... However you are 100% accurate in that the top spots reflect your groups GRift fishing skills/patience. But even with an op map/mob combo, if the group doesn't have the right synergy or if someone isn't properly pulling their weight, 10/10 fail - so chalk it up as an XP run, It shows when a S9 4man w/ combined para 9169 can clear a 117 while a NS9 group in the top 5 sits at a 116 - even though combined their para is 13007. Same era, meta, and skils.
That also has something to do with effort as well. A lot of players push leaderboards in seasonal, I don't see as much or nearly as much effort in non-seasonal play. To me, being on the leaderboards in non-seasonal doesn't rellay matter, because everybody has their GG gear, their 4-5k paragons, the super gems, it's not really worth it. In seasonal, everybody's trying to push as high as they can for the end of the season, with the "fair opportunity".
I don't have an issue with non-seasonal, I just don't find it nearly as competitive as seasonal. As far as your math is concerned, if the zDPS have more paragon than the DPS, your whole total is out of line. It's dependant on the DPS paragons how fast the clear is, not the overall combined total.
That's actually hilarious, considering that the primals will do nothing but serve to save time.
The end goal for a character is to have a character with every item you want, perfect stat placement and the most perfectly rolled stats you can manage.
Do the math, honestly. You'll find that the odds of you rolling a perfect ancient are lower than rolling the item as a primal once, at which point you can stop feeding tens of thousands of blood shards to Kadala for more and more ancients hoping that you'll get that one perfect or "Good Enough" item roll.
The best part about primal ancients, is they serve to level the playing field between the top tier leaderboard players (Sort of) if you put in enough time currently, you'll likely have a really well serviceable set of gear that you can use to push GR's but that one person luckier than you has even that slight advantage over you until you one-in-a-million that near perfectly rolled item for each slot. Granted it's still going to be hard as hell to roll a primal for every slot, but better than the odds of doing it when playing RNGception with current ancients.
At this point (when everyone has full primals) people can focus on being better than one another rather than luckier, again this is one hell of a long haul.
Blizzard is too afraid to make actual items (not versions of the same item) super rare again. Therefore we get ancients, and primals. Can't wait to farm the exact same item 100 times hoping the stats are higher.
Just the mere idea that we can't have super rare, hard to find items again like in D2 BECAUSE a small amount of people will whine that they can't find it during a season is depressing.
I don't think we'll ever get an actual Diablo game again. It'l be this same arcade 'rare'-items-rain-down crap over and over.
That's actually hilarious, considering that the primals will do nothing but serve to save time.
The end goal for a character is to have a character with every item you want, perfect stat placement and the most perfectly rolled stats you can manage.
Do the math, honestly. You'll find that the odds of you rolling a perfect ancient are lower than rolling the item as a primal once, at which point you can stop feeding tens of thousands of blood shards to Kadala for more and more ancients hoping that you'll get that one perfect or "Good Enough" item roll.
The best part about primal ancients, is they serve to level the playing field between the top tier leaderboard players (Sort of) if you put in enough time currently, you'll likely have a really well serviceable set of gear that you can use to push GR's but that one person luckier than you has even that slight advantage over you until you one-in-a-million that near perfectly rolled item for each slot. Granted it's still going to be hard as hell to roll a primal for every slot, but better than the odds of doing it when playing RNGception with current ancients.
At this point (when everyone has full primals) people can focus on being better than one another rather than luckier, again this is one hell of a long haul.
I agree, but once everyone has all the primals they need it will be down to paragon grinding again.
Coming up next, Extra Extra Primal Ancients. More Ancienterer and Strongerer than the old Ancients. SRSLY, you kids just don't understand this game. You will NEVER have the best gear, or the best paragon. that's the point of the game, that's the only thing that makes this game not the same exact thing over and over again (which it still is anyway) is new gear and the power gained from paragon.
I do agree that it is indeed a fact that the seasonal ladder is WAY more competitive with individuals and groups consistently pushing for the top rung. I also agree that if the NS ladder was as popular as the seasonal, theoretically the bar would be higher. You're right - 2 zdps at 5000 para and 2 dps sitting at 1500 wouldn't have the damage output for grifts at that level. Though it should go without saying that a group (like in my example) would probably not attempt any notable push with the aforementioned power imbalance. That being the case or not, I could have included the individuals paragon levels... all of which sitting around 3500.
Still, it is beside the point. I was simply providing evidence that you don't need 4k para to be pushing 115s and on the front page. You better believe it helps though .
And Autocthon, I consider it bad form to start posting random player's names but the group I was referring to has a 14:22 -116 clear and the first player of said group is listed at rank 20 4man NS.
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You are not accounting for the fact that it may not roll the stats you need. I get plenty of items that are ancient but roll too many stats i do not need for my build rendering the item useless. Considering that happens more often than not even with the re-roll ability, i would argue against what you are presenting. Just because something has a less than 1% drop rate does not make it a meager 1% upgrade overall. Primal ancients are going to roll completely perfect for the stats they roll.
EX.
Primal Ancient Hellfire Amulet
+armor
+area damage
+life on hit
(Insert useless passive)
Get my point? All those stats will roll perfect but the item is useless because of how crap it rolled and no re-rolling will save it.
The fact remains that the devs from this game haven't even tried to create a "true" competitive environment. Brawling is a cop out as well (and the worst, most sad feature of the game).
I don't think people will care about the initial balance if there are items to be had. If something gets too crazy, they can fix it later. It's all about pushing that content. Make a map. Put the players on the board.
This is my #1 complaint against the game and it has been from day one: D3 devs are pussies that don't take risks and are so out of touch with the players they don't even know what we want anymore. They just keep dropping in these "new areas" that add NOTHING to the game. Set dungeons? WTAF.
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ModeratorAs for new areas, they are just X2 content that was realized before the plan was scrapped and polished enough to be in game. Just to not just throw everything away.
As for set dungeons: yes, they suck for the most part. But imho the bad thing is that they have objectives realted to sepcific set powers and are basically gimmicks you find a way to cheat over. Some sort of PvE content with static maps (bigger than set dungoens) and objectives imho would be something nice to have.
Similar to you PvPvE thing, we may open a portal to a Demon stronghold and destroy the beacons keeping the portal open, just to fight waves of enemies until we defeat the generals firth and the commander in the end, then run away before the portal collapses trapping us inside.
The point is that in D3 tehre's a lot of stuff that could be done without messing up with the core systems, yet we get Ancient Ancients (and then Perfect Ancients because Ancient Ancients were a crap idea).
I don't have an issue with non-seasonal, I just don't find it nearly as competitive as seasonal. As far as your math is concerned, if the zDPS have more paragon than the DPS, your whole total is out of line. It's dependant on the DPS paragons how fast the clear is, not the overall combined total.
That's actually hilarious, considering that the primals will do nothing but serve to save time.
The end goal for a character is to have a character with every item you want, perfect stat placement and the most perfectly rolled stats you can manage.
Do the math, honestly. You'll find that the odds of you rolling a perfect ancient are lower than rolling the item as a primal once, at which point you can stop feeding tens of thousands of blood shards to Kadala for more and more ancients hoping that you'll get that one perfect or "Good Enough" item roll.
The best part about primal ancients, is they serve to level the playing field between the top tier leaderboard players (Sort of) if you put in enough time currently, you'll likely have a really well serviceable set of gear that you can use to push GR's but that one person luckier than you has even that slight advantage over you until you one-in-a-million that near perfectly rolled item for each slot. Granted it's still going to be hard as hell to roll a primal for every slot, but better than the odds of doing it when playing RNGception with current ancients.
At this point (when everyone has full primals) people can focus on being better than one another rather than luckier, again this is one hell of a long haul.
Blizzard is too afraid to make actual items (not versions of the same item) super rare again. Therefore we get ancients, and primals. Can't wait to farm the exact same item 100 times hoping the stats are higher.
Just the mere idea that we can't have super rare, hard to find items again like in D2 BECAUSE a small amount of people will whine that they can't find it during a season is depressing.
I don't think we'll ever get an actual Diablo game again. It'l be this same arcade 'rare'-items-rain-down crap over and over.
Anyway, yea OP you're correct.
I agree, but once everyone has all the primals they need it will be down to paragon grinding again.
Coming up next, Extra Extra Primal Ancients. More Ancienterer and Strongerer than the old Ancients. SRSLY, you kids just don't understand this game. You will NEVER have the best gear, or the best paragon. that's the point of the game, that's the only thing that makes this game not the same exact thing over and over again (which it still is anyway) is new gear and the power gained from paragon.
I do agree that it is indeed a fact that the seasonal ladder is WAY more competitive with individuals and groups consistently pushing for the top rung. I also agree that if the NS ladder was as popular as the seasonal, theoretically the bar would be higher. You're right - 2 zdps at 5000 para and 2 dps sitting at 1500 wouldn't have the damage output for grifts at that level. Though it should go without saying that a group (like in my example) would probably not attempt any notable push with the aforementioned power imbalance. That being the case or not, I could have included the individuals paragon levels... all of which sitting around 3500.
Still, it is beside the point. I was simply providing evidence that you don't need 4k para to be pushing 115s and on the front page. You better believe it helps though
.
And Autocthon, I consider it bad form to start posting random player's names but the group I was referring to has a 14:22 -116 clear and the first player of said group is listed at rank 20 4man NS.