Just remove stupid GR keys, if someone can play only 1-2 hours, they dont need to farm keys for GR-s to play with friends. Or make restriction with keys only for new levels, like if you did lv55 solo before, you dont need key below 55, but you need it for 55+ and so on ...
Just remove stupid GR keys, if someone can play only 1-2 hours, they dont need to farm keys for GR-s to play with friends. Or make restriction with keys only for new levels, like if you did lv55 solo before, you dont need key below 55, but you need it for 55+ and so on ...
Getting rid of GR keys would be fantastic. I'd rather log on and play GR all day if I had my "dream day". Sadly that either requires farming up a ton of keys before hand, or I'll have to make little pit stops in the day to go through an incredibly boring and unrewarding normal old rift.
"Why they're cheating" would be a super interesting thing to know for a developer of a game like this.
It's a useful discussion.
No it's not.
Here is the list:
Tedium - Picking up items
Farming - The sink (can't or won't do it)
Malfeasance - Fuck the police
That's it. That's literally the list of the reason why people cheat. There is nothing more too it. If you can think of any reason that isn't covered under these 3 bases. I'd would love to hear it. FFS there is a dude with no arms that doesn't cheat. What is your excuse?
"Can't or won't do it" - why they won't do it?
i.e. they don't want to / don't enjoy it - the question is, why they don't want to / don't enjoy it. As a developer or a designer you're constantly asking yourself "why/what do people enjoy/don't enjoy about my game/product"
And you still don't understand. There is no excuse. I'm not saying that there is an excuse, either. I am just saying that the subject is more interesting than "people who cheat should go play another game".
If there's a lot of people who say that your product sucks (or a certain part of it sucks) - via words OR ACTION (action in this case) - then it's all worth reviewing, analyzing, and learning from.
Sorry, that is under malfeasance. Can't or won't might even fall under tedium. It isn't interesting in the slightest. EVERYTHING mentioned here for reasons to bot or not do something, has been mentioned a 100 times. It's a beaten horse.
The games flaws has been mentioned. Numerous times, across numerous forums, across numerous mediums. At this point, if you know anything about D3, you know it's flaws. Excuses aren't interesting, excuses are lame.
"Why they're cheating" would be a super interesting thing to know for a developer of a game like this.
It's a useful discussion.
No it's not.
Here is the list:
Tedium - Picking up items
Farming - The sink (can't or won't do it)
Malfeasance - Fuck the police
That's it. That's literally the list of the reason why people cheat. There is nothing more too it. If you can think of any reason that isn't covered under these 3 bases. I'd would love to hear it. FFS there is a dude with no arms that doesn't cheat. What is your excuse?
"Can't or won't do it" - why they won't do it?
i.e. they don't want to / don't enjoy it - the question is, why they don't want to / don't enjoy it. As a developer or a designer you're constantly asking yourself "why/what do people enjoy/don't enjoy about my game/product"
And you still don't understand. There is no excuse. I'm not saying that there is an excuse, either. I am just saying that the subject is more interesting than "people who cheat should go play another game".
If there's a lot of people who say that your product sucks (or a certain part of it sucks) - via words OR ACTION (action in this case) - then it's all worth reviewing, analyzing, and learning from.
Sorry, that is under malfeasance. Can't or won't might even fall under tedium. It isn't interesting in the slightest. EVERYTHING mentioned here for reasons to bot or not do something, has been mentioned a 100 times. It's a beaten horse.
The games flaws has been mentioned. Numerous times, across numerous forums, across numerous mediums. At this point, if you know anything about D3, you know it's flaws. Excuses aren't interesting, excuses are lame.
so i guess you think that if a topic has been talked about a hundred times, its enough talk and we should just accept it?
well its like your mother telling you not to stay up late a hundret times when you were young and you still didnt accept it .. right?
excuses aren't lame - excuses are important to understand the mindframe of people. Once you understood this by having something like empathy you can react accordingly and try to do something against the problem. It even enables yourself to realize that there is indeed a problem.
But ofcourse if you are egocentric and only care about your own oppinion, of course what you say makes sense.
But basically you're just being unconstructive. - You even quote a post which states "this is not an excuse" (and i agree with that - the post is analyzing the situation in an abstract way - not even writing about him/herself) but complain that excuses (like the one quoted) are lame.
You are not only unconstructive but also rather contradictory.
I have another word for that but i will get banned if i say it. - but i guess you got the point
so i guess you think that if a topic has been talked about a hundred times, its enough talk and we should just accept it?
well its like your mother telling you not to stay up late a hundret times when you were young and you still didnt accept it .. right?
excuses aren't lame - excuses are important to understand the mindframe of people. Once you understood this by having something like empathy you can react accordingly and try to do something against the problem. It even enables yourself to realize that there is indeed a problem.
But ofcourse if you are egocentric and only care about your own oppinion, of course what you say makes sense.
But basically you're just being unconstructive. - You even quote a post which states "this is not an excuse" (and i agree with that - the post is analyzing the situation in an abstract way - not even writing about him/herself) but complain that excuses (like the one quoted) are lame.
You are not only unconstructive but also rather contradictory.
I have another word for that but i will get banned if i say it. - but i guess you got the point
Totally misses the point. Secondly, get mad. It shows how little argument you have against it. If there is no excuse, as you have said. Then ALL point and feelings are moot. They are entirely irrelevant. Cheaters will exist in all walks, no matter what is going on. You could get EVERYTHING you ask for in the game, and there will still people that cheat the system some how. That is the nature of human beings. If you cheat, you lack moral fiber, nothing else, nothing more. Any reason, any attempt at validation is an excuse.
If cheating didn't give an advantage people wouldn't do it. Simple as that. Even if it's entirely for themselves, and only affect themselves. The AH was a prime example of this. People complained the AH didn't allow them to play the game. Now I bet these same people are botting, because they don't want to actually play the game. They want an excuse to whine, and an excuse blame, and an excuse to cheat the system. It's all excuses, which are entirely moot and entirely irrelevant.
so i guess you think that if a topic has been talked about a hundred times, its enough talk and we should just accept it?
well its like your mother telling you not to stay up late a hundret times when you were young and you still didnt accept it .. right?
excuses aren't lame - excuses are important to understand the mindframe of people. Once you understood this by having something like empathy you can react accordingly and try to do something against the problem. It even enables yourself to realize that there is indeed a problem.
But ofcourse if you are egocentric and only care about your own oppinion, of course what you say makes sense.
But basically you're just being unconstructive. - You even quote a post which states "this is not an excuse" (and i agree with that - the post is analyzing the situation in an abstract way - not even writing about him/herself) but complain that excuses (like the one quoted) are lame.
You are not only unconstructive but also rather contradictory.
I have another word for that but i will get banned if i say it. - but i guess you got the point
Totally misses the point. Secondly, get mad. It shows how little argument you have against it. If there is no excuse, as you have said. Then ALL point and feelings are moot. They are entirely irrelevant. Cheaters will exist in all walks, no matter what is going on. You could get EVERYTHING you ask for in the game, and there will still people that cheat the system some how. That is the nature of human beings. If you cheat, you lack moral fiber, nothing else, nothing more. Any reason, any attempt at validation is an excuse.
If cheating didn't give an advantage people wouldn't do it. Simple as that. Even if it's entirely for themselves, and only affect themselves. The AH was a prime example of this. People complained the AH didn't allow them to play the game. Now I bet these same people are botting, because they don't want to actually play the game. They want an excuse to whine, and an excuse blame, and an excuse to cheat the system. It's all excuses, which are entirely moot and entirely irrelevant.
Why are you still posting in this thread? Your responses are the same every time.You aren't contributing, you're just giving the same black and white rationale and trying to impose your self-righteous opinion as the only correct one. An excuse to whine? Even people who don't even bot complain about the exact same issues with the game that drive people to bot!
I will agree that cheating shows a lack of moral fiber, although I think it only holds truth in the context of competition, as the intention is more often malicious in these circumstances (i.e. deliberately gaining an advantage over other players with the intention of claiming an undeserved rank/reward). I still think the widespread use of non-default (cheat) features within the community warrants attention, in order to isolate the exact cause. I will also agree that these causes have been mentioned numerous times across the forums; although I don't think this is a good enough reason to lower our voices on the issue. In fact, I think that this thread may be a more appropriate location to post such concerns, purely due to its visibility to the community (almost 200 posts in a matter of days), and as a result, its visibility to the Blizzard affiliated readers who patrol these forums.
To be fair, I also think that making excuses for cheating is a fruitless endeavor (it won't earn anybody's respect), however I believe there are some groups who will have more legitimate reasoning for cheating. The most common example being; GRift key farming reduces a player's ability to enjoy the aspect of the game which they take most interest in, due to extremely limited free time for gaming.
This is not my own personal circumstances, but it is a dilemma faced by some players;
Do I spend all of my available time farming GRift keys only to run 0 GRs?
OR
Do I move on from the game due to its time sink requirements?
At this point I would like to remind the reader that we are all paying customers.
Following on from this scenario; what if there was a compromise?
A bot could farm the keys for the player, so that they could simply log on and run GR, which was their entire goal to begin with. For obvious reasons, this is likely to appeal to many players facing the aforementioned dilemma.
This scenario may identify the need for GRift keys as being a concern for casual players, deterring them from playing the game. This may be considered as a significant issue, as the majority of console gamers are thought to be casual gamers, and may therefore represent a significant market share.
look.. we are not arguing pro cheating. we are trying to discuss and analyze how we could make botting less attractive thats all.
why do you want to stop this discussion?
guess iam talking against a wall with some people here..
Because the discussion has beat to death. There is literally 3 slots in which cheats fall under. Tedium(picking up items, farming, Rifts to Grifts,), Time-Sink(Farming), or Malfeasance( I don't care, I don't like this part of the game, fuck Blizzard). All of the reason cheaters cheat can be classified under these 3. What could you possibly enlighten on the situation, that hasn't been done before?
If you don't like Diablo 3 without cheats, and you cheat, then you aren't playing D3. Simple as that.
sorry how could i not understand what you were writing.
now after you repeated yourself for the 3rd time all becomes clear.
sorry - you are totally right - everything in life is black and white - as is cheating.
Then explain to me then, how cheating is so dynamic without making excuses? So I want you to think about it, and if your thought process falls under tedium, sink, or malfeasance. Because if your explanation does, then I don't want to hear it. I would love to hear something other than the 3. I'm being 100% serious. This is me, doing exactly as you ask, open minded and listening. Now, I want to you think about why cheaters cheat, and find a reason outside the 3 and get back to me.
look.. we are not arguing pro cheating. we are trying to discuss and analyze how we could make botting less attractive thats all.
why do you want to stop this discussion?
guess iam talking against a wall with some people here..
Because the discussion has beat to death. There is literally 3 slots in which cheats fall under. Tedium(picking up items, farming, Rifts to Grifts,), Time-Sink(Farming), or Malfeasance( I don't care, I don't like this part of the game, fuck Blizzard). All of the reason cheaters cheat can be classified under these 3. What could you possibly enlighten on the situation, that hasn't been done before?
If you don't like Diablo 3 without cheats, and you cheat, then you aren't playing D3. Simple as that.
The difference in our view points is that you are hell-bent on classifying everything into its appropriate group, whereas I am attempting to more clearly state the items listed under each group. The reasons for using cheats do fit into your 3 groups, that much is fairly simple, they are all-encompassing.
Let's take a brief look at rifts. We could say that rifts serve purely to provide GR keys (tedious - monotonous). So far, the most commonly offered solution to the botting trend has been to remove the need for GR keys, however this will impact on rifts, making them redundant. So basically, you have solved the issue of tedious rifts by removing rifts completely.
I think removing rifts would be a bad idea and offer the alternative of a unique reward, making rifts more attractive. While GR keys are a unique reward available only in rifts, they do not provide any immediate benefits to the player, which leads to a sense of non-accomplishment (tedious - unrewarding).
AS you can see, there are 2 different reasons as to why rifts are tedious; monotony and lack of accomplishment. These factors, and the circumstances which form them do not become clear until we take a closer look at the issue. It is not the same thing to say;
"People cheat because rifts are tedious."
and
"Rifts are unrewarding and monotonous, which leads to the acceptance of cheats; furthermore these rifts are unrewarding/monotonous because X, Y and Z."
Personally, I would like to see rifts provide attractive rewards (some unique benefit, as leg gems are to GR, or mats are to bounties) which would bring immediate benefit to the player. This would provide more progression routes (variety in gameplay) for players, and allow GR keys to be phased out. This new reward should warrant a bump in rift difficulty (preferably on an infinite scale, just as GRs provide), which would make them more challenging (less tedious) and may also reduce the effectiveness of bot programs (which cannot play the game as well as a human).
Because the discussion has beat to death. There is literally 3 slots in which cheats fall under. Tedium(picking up items, farming, Rifts to Grifts,), Time-Sink(Farming), or Malfeasance( I don't care, I don't like this part of the game, fuck Blizzard). All of the reason cheaters cheat can be classified under these 3. What could you possibly enlighten on the situation, that hasn't been done before?
If you don't like Diablo 3 without cheats, and you cheat, then you aren't playing D3. Simple as that.
The difference in our view points is that you are hell-bent on classifying everything into its appropriate group, whereas I am attempting to more clearly state the items listed under each group. The reasons for using cheats do fit into your 3 groups, that much is fairly simple, they are all-encompassing.
Let's take a brief look at rifts. We could say that rifts serve purely to provide GR keys (tedious - monotonous). So far, the most commonly offered solution to the botting trend has been to remove the need for GR keys, however this will impact on rifts, making them redundant. So basically, you have solved the issue of tedious rifts by removing rifts completely.
I think removing rifts would be a bad idea and offer the alternative of a unique reward, making rifts more attractive. While GR keys are a unique reward available only in rifts, they do not provide any immediate benefits to the player, which leads to a sense of non-accomplishment (tedious - unrewarding).
AS you can see, there are 2 different reasons as to why rifts are tedious; monotony and lack of accomplishment. These factors, and the circumstances which form them do not become clear until we take a closer look at the issue. It is not the same thing to say;
"People cheat because rifts are tedious."
and
"Rifts are unrewarding and monotonous, which leads to the acceptance of cheats; furthermore these rifts are unrewarding/monotonous because X, Y and Z."
Personally, I would like to see rifts provide attractive rewards (some unique benefit, as leg gems are to GR, or mats are to bounties) which would bring immediate benefit to the player. This would provide more progression routes (variety in gameplay) for players, and allow GR keys to be phased out. This new reward should warrant a bump in rift difficulty (preferably on an infinite scale, just as GRs provide), which would make them more challenging (less tedious) and may also reduce the effectiveness of bot programs (which cannot play the game as well as a human).
You haven't said anything unique in the slightest. No more than I have. Expect I have said it in less words. The game is lacking is an excuse. You can beat, why the game lacks, to death. NONE of that is going to get fixed. It's too late for that to happen. It's delusional to even discuss the issues at hand, because you can have EVERYTHING you want, plus more. And fuckers with STILL cheat the system
Everything you want is the same of what we already have. It will just drive a more monotonousness gameplay, then we already have. Giving an even greater excuse for botting to happen. As streamlining the process prevents engagement. Sometimes the shit is convoluted to keep you engaged in what you are doing and why.
If Blizzard gives you an auto mat pickup, you will complain about not knowing your bag space and demand a counter. Cheaters will never be happy the game will always need improvement, and cheat will use any excuse for any reason to bot, cheat, or mod the game. Either play Diablo 3 as the experience intended or don't bother.
Your post suggests you have given up any hope of improving/modifying the game form its current state. I refuse to agree with this stand-point because it is irrational; patches are on-going, and with these patches come the potential for change. Since change is possible, we should focus on discussing those changes which will have the most positive impact on us, as a gaming community, within the bounds of the developer's capabilities. The suggestion I have made above is in no way difficult to implement. You simply remove GRift keys and put a new unique reward in its place (preferably infinite scaling, with a low gain, in the same way that caldessan's and leg gems are), and re-align difficulties with power creep.
We both know that cheaters will always exist; the aim is to minimise their numbers. Obviously, regular ban waves is one method to achieve this. Another method may be to tweak current features in accordance with player requirements/suggestions. The difference between the 2, is that 1 approach will ultimately reduce the player base, while the other could potentially expand it.
sorry how could i not understand what you were writing.
now after you repeated yourself for the 3rd time all becomes clear.
sorry - you are totally right - everything in life is black and white - as is cheating.
Then explain to me then, how cheating is so dynamic without making excuses? So I want you to think about it, and if your thought process falls under tedium, sink, or malfeasance. Because if your explanation does, then I don't want to hear it. I would love to hear something other than the 3. I'm being 100% serious. This is me, doing exactly as you ask, open minded and listening. Now, I want to you think about why cheaters cheat, and find a reason outside the 3 and get back to me.
Well now you are at least trying. thats something.
I kind of get now where the problem lies in our communication.
I guess you interpret what we state as an explanation for cheating - as an excuse for cheating.
You're not wrong. If someone says he bots because he has no time - its an excuse. But at the same time it's an explanation.
The difference between both is, that an explanation is objective and an excuse has a notion of emotional rating - by yourself. Rated in negative way of course.
Its negative because you say there is in general no excuse for cheating . and you'Re right again.
Of course when somebody says he is botting becaus he has no time it is an excuse BY THAT PERSON for that person.
However the statement / fact that somebody( note its anonymous here) cheated because of lack of time is not to be interpreted as an excuse but rather as an explanation for something.
We do not deny that its also an excuse but if you take it as an objective statement you can start asking WHY all this is happening.
You woulnt say to this senstence that it is containing an excuse, would you? :" Someone could cheat because he lacks the time to otherwise reach his goals in the game."
Because here the word "could" implies that its only a possibility. Since an excuse has to directed at another person or a group of people.
So it all comes down to interpreting what is said in a way that will benefit the discussion. If you don't want to thats your coice of course - but for the sake of the discussion you should try not to see it as an excuse.(even if it is one)
To qoute you :All of the reason cheaters cheat can be classified under these 3. What could you possibly enlighten on the situation, that hasn't been done before? If you don't like Diablo 3 without cheats, and you cheat, then you aren't playing D3. Simple as that. You're right with those 3 categories. Nothing to object here. I also probably cant add any new category what you desired from me. But just because these categories exist doesnt mean there is no deeper meaning in all of this. could it just be possible that you still think the topic of this discussion is : Is there any valid reason for cheating? And of course - there isn't! But by hearing out people who cheat we get there subjective reasons (which are excuses on a personal level) but we interpret them as explanations for a certain behaviour and based on this we try to find commonalities between all cheaters which would help us pinpoint the most common excuses for cheating. (These commonalities are of course the 3 categories you mentioned yourself - this part of the discussion is so to say finsihed)
Deeper analysation of "most common excuses" for cheating could potentially reveal shortcommings of the game which could be changed in a way that eiminates (optimum) or at least alleviates the need for botting for people having these excuses in common. So the topic of the thread is : How can diablo be changed to reduce cheating / make cheating less attractive?
Does our mumojumbo at least make a little sense now with the possibility that you just got the topic wrong ?
Quote from Jalatiphranextnext Well now you are at least trying. thats something.
I kind of get now where the problem lies in our communication.
I guess you interpret what we state as an explanation for cheating - as an excuse for cheating.
You're not wrong. If someone says he bots because he has no time - its an excuse. But at the same time it's an explanation.
The difference between both is, that an explanation is objective and an excuse has a notion of emotional rating - by yourself. Rated in negative way of course.
Its negative because you say there is in general no excuse for cheating . and you'Re right again.
Of course when somebody says he is botting becaus he has no time it is an excuse BY THAT PERSON for that person.
However the statement / fact that somebody( note its anonymous here) cheated because of lack of time is not to be interpreted as an excuse but rather as an explanation for something.
We do not deny that its also an excuse but if you take it as an objective statement you can start asking WHY all this is happening. You woulnt say to this senstence that it is containing an excuse, would you? :" Someone could cheat because he lacks the time to otherwise reach his goals in the game."
Because here the word "could" implies that its only a possibility. Since an excuse has to directed at another person or a group of people.
So it all comes down to interpreting what is said in a way that will benefit the discussion. If you don't want to thats your coice of course - but for the sake of the discussion you should try not to see it as an excuse.(even if it is one)
First off, the topic of the thread is US/EU Ban Wave. There is NOTHING in the title to suggest I should be talking about WHY people cheat. Even if, I have covered all the excuses or, as you want to say, explanations under the 3 bases. Which you have so thoroughly made my point for me.
Let's talk about the bold part, and the reason your logic is flawed. Yes, that is an excuse covered under Time-Sink. You don't have the time, you don't get the goods. It's like anything else in life. You can't go to college, you don't get the degree. You don't work, you don't get money. Trying to justify and "explain" the situation is utterly ridiculous.
What you are doing is called, using Weasel Words. You are attempting to challenge that your "explanations" are somehow different from an excuse. It isn't. You have said so yourself. Here is a prime example:
Sometimes, the only one who can really know if their statement is an excuse or an explanation is the one saying it. Telling the police who
pulled you over that you are running late for work is a good example of this. If you were hoping to get out of a ticket or lying, it was probably an excuse. If the officer asked why you were driving 30 in a 25, and you answered honestly, it was an explanation.
Now, when you are trying to "explain" why you cheat on the internet. No one cares. We don't care if you are late to work, it can be explanation. It just doesn't matter. You're failing to realize this. Your "explanations" are falling on deaf ears, and unwilling participants.
Too much bots are farming only keys.
Just remove stupid GR keys, if someone can play only 1-2 hours, they dont need to farm keys for GR-s to play with friends. Or make restriction with keys only for new levels, like if you did lv55 solo before, you dont need key below 55, but you need it for 55+ and so on ...
Botters will still bot.. Does not matter what. I am pretty sure botting is like heroine, once you tried it it's no turning back. Just too good.
Unlimited mats, unlimited crafting, unlimited hellfire amulets.. etc..
I pesonally know botter who never did grifts, just botted 25000 deaths breaths then crafted shit like crazy.
http://www.angryroleplayer.com/
http://www.youtube.com/c/angryroleplayer
https://www.diablofans.com/builds/105329-2-6-7-rend-bleed-whirlwind-gr130
https://www.diablofans.com/builds/105301-2-6-7-fist-of-the-heavens-aegis-of-valor-gr110
The games flaws has been mentioned. Numerous times, across numerous forums, across numerous mediums. At this point, if you know anything about D3, you know it's flaws. Excuses aren't interesting, excuses are lame.
well its like your mother telling you not to stay up late a hundret times when you were young and you still didnt accept it .. right?
excuses aren't lame - excuses are important to understand the mindframe of people. Once you understood this by having something like empathy you can react accordingly and try to do something against the problem. It even enables yourself to realize that there is indeed a problem.
But ofcourse if you are egocentric and only care about your own oppinion, of course what you say makes sense.
But basically you're just being unconstructive. - You even quote a post which states "this is not an excuse" (and i agree with that - the post is analyzing the situation in an abstract way - not even writing about him/herself) but complain that excuses (like the one quoted) are lame.
You are not only unconstructive but also rather contradictory.
I have another word for that but i will get banned if i say it. - but i guess you got the point
If cheating didn't give an advantage people wouldn't do it. Simple as that. Even if it's entirely for themselves, and only affect themselves. The AH was a prime example of this. People complained the AH didn't allow them to play the game. Now I bet these same people are botting, because they don't want to actually play the game. They want an excuse to whine, and an excuse blame, and an excuse to cheat the system. It's all excuses, which are entirely moot and entirely irrelevant.
yeah if you would have read my postings i kind of agree with you.
what I agree with you when you say cheating will always happen in some way
i disagree when you say we cant do anything game related to change the effectiveness of botting.
I will agree that cheating shows a lack of moral fiber, although I think it only holds truth in the context of competition, as the intention is more often malicious in these circumstances (i.e. deliberately gaining an advantage over other players with the intention of claiming an undeserved rank/reward). I still think the widespread use of non-default (cheat) features within the community warrants attention, in order to isolate the exact cause. I will also agree that these causes have been mentioned numerous times across the forums; although I don't think this is a good enough reason to lower our voices on the issue. In fact, I think that this thread may be a more appropriate location to post such concerns, purely due to its visibility to the community (almost 200 posts in a matter of days), and as a result, its visibility to the Blizzard affiliated readers who patrol these forums.
To be fair, I also think that making excuses for cheating is a fruitless endeavor (it won't earn anybody's respect), however I believe there are some groups who will have more legitimate reasoning for cheating. The most common example being; GRift key farming reduces a player's ability to enjoy the aspect of the game which they take most interest in, due to extremely limited free time for gaming.
This is not my own personal circumstances, but it is a dilemma faced by some players;
Do I spend all of my available time farming GRift keys only to run 0 GRs?
OR
Do I move on from the game due to its time sink requirements?
At this point I would like to remind the reader that we are all paying customers.
Following on from this scenario; what if there was a compromise?
A bot could farm the keys for the player, so that they could simply log on and run GR, which was their entire goal to begin with. For obvious reasons, this is likely to appeal to many players facing the aforementioned dilemma.
This scenario may identify the need for GRift keys as being a concern for casual players, deterring them from playing the game. This may be considered as a significant issue, as the majority of console gamers are thought to be casual gamers, and may therefore represent a significant market share.
There are no legitimate reasons for cheating. Why is this thread still open...
look.. we are not arguing pro cheating. we are trying to discuss and analyze how we could make botting less attractive thats all.
why do you want to stop this discussion?
guess iam talking against a wall with some people here..
If you don't like Diablo 3 without cheats, and you cheat, then you aren't playing D3. Simple as that.
sorry how could i not understand what you were writing.
now after you repeated yourself for the 3rd time all becomes clear.
sorry - you are totally right - everything in life is black and white - as is cheating.
Hi all
I do have 1 question will they also do this to Asian server? As to date no action has been taken there.
Let's take a brief look at rifts. We could say that rifts serve purely to provide GR keys (tedious - monotonous). So far, the most commonly offered solution to the botting trend has been to remove the need for GR keys, however this will impact on rifts, making them redundant. So basically, you have solved the issue of tedious rifts by removing rifts completely.
I think removing rifts would be a bad idea and offer the alternative of a unique reward, making rifts more attractive. While GR keys are a unique reward available only in rifts, they do not provide any immediate benefits to the player, which leads to a sense of non-accomplishment (tedious - unrewarding).
AS you can see, there are 2 different reasons as to why rifts are tedious; monotony and lack of accomplishment. These factors, and the circumstances which form them do not become clear until we take a closer look at the issue. It is not the same thing to say;
"People cheat because rifts are tedious."
and
"Rifts are unrewarding and monotonous, which leads to the acceptance of cheats; furthermore these rifts are unrewarding/monotonous because X, Y and Z."
Personally, I would like to see rifts provide attractive rewards (some unique benefit, as leg gems are to GR, or mats are to bounties) which would bring immediate benefit to the player. This would provide more progression routes (variety in gameplay) for players, and allow GR keys to be phased out. This new reward should warrant a bump in rift difficulty (preferably on an infinite scale, just as GRs provide), which would make them more challenging (less tedious) and may also reduce the effectiveness of bot programs (which cannot play the game as well as a human).
Everything you want is the same of what we already have. It will just drive a more monotonousness gameplay, then we already have. Giving an even greater excuse for botting to happen. As streamlining the process prevents engagement. Sometimes the shit is convoluted to keep you engaged in what you are doing and why.
If Blizzard gives you an auto mat pickup, you will complain about not knowing your bag space and demand a counter. Cheaters will never be happy the game will always need improvement, and cheat will use any excuse for any reason to bot, cheat, or mod the game. Either play Diablo 3 as the experience intended or don't bother.
@ Jokerfiend:
Your post suggests you have given up any hope of improving/modifying the game form its current state. I refuse to agree with this stand-point because it is irrational; patches are on-going, and with these patches come the potential for change. Since change is possible, we should focus on discussing those changes which will have the most positive impact on us, as a gaming community, within the bounds of the developer's capabilities. The suggestion I have made above is in no way difficult to implement. You simply remove GRift keys and put a new unique reward in its place (preferably infinite scaling, with a low gain, in the same way that caldessan's and leg gems are), and re-align difficulties with power creep.
We both know that cheaters will always exist; the aim is to minimise their numbers. Obviously, regular ban waves is one method to achieve this. Another method may be to tweak current features in accordance with player requirements/suggestions. The difference between the 2, is that 1 approach will ultimately reduce the player base, while the other could potentially expand it.
Well now you are at least trying. thats something.
I kind of get now where the problem lies in our communication.
I guess you interpret what we state as an explanation for cheating - as an excuse for cheating.
You're not wrong. If someone says he bots because he has no time - its an excuse. But at the same time it's an explanation.
The difference between both is, that an explanation is objective and an excuse has a notion of emotional rating - by yourself. Rated in negative way of course.
Its negative because you say there is in general no excuse for cheating . and you'Re right again.
Of course when somebody says he is botting becaus he has no time it is an excuse BY THAT PERSON for that person.
However the statement / fact that somebody( note its anonymous here) cheated because of lack of time is not to be interpreted as an excuse but rather as an explanation for something.
We do not deny that its also an excuse but if you take it as an objective statement you can start asking WHY all this is happening.
You woulnt say to this senstence that it is containing an excuse, would you? :" Someone could cheat because he lacks the time to otherwise reach his goals in the game."
Because here the word "could" implies that its only a possibility. Since an excuse has to directed at another person or a group of people.
So it all comes down to interpreting what is said in a way that will benefit the discussion. If you don't want to thats your coice of course - but for the sake of the discussion you should try not to see it as an excuse.(even if it is one)
To qoute you
:All of the reason cheaters cheat can be classified under these 3. What could you possibly enlighten on the situation, that hasn't been done before?
If you don't like Diablo 3 without cheats, and you cheat, then you aren't playing D3. Simple as that.
You're right with those 3 categories. Nothing to object here. I also probably cant add any new category what you desired from me.
But just because these categories exist doesnt mean there is no deeper meaning in all of this.
could it just be possible that you still think the topic of this discussion is : Is there any valid reason for cheating?
And of course - there isn't!
But by hearing out people who cheat we get there subjective reasons (which are excuses on a personal level) but we interpret them as explanations for a certain behaviour and based on this we try to find commonalities between all cheaters which would help us pinpoint the most common excuses for cheating. (These commonalities are of course the 3 categories you mentioned yourself - this part of the discussion is so to say finsihed)
Deeper analysation of "most common excuses" for cheating could potentially reveal shortcommings of the game which could be changed in a way that eiminates (optimum) or at least alleviates the need for botting for people having these excuses in common.
So the topic of the thread is :
How can diablo be changed to reduce cheating / make cheating less attractive?
Does our mumojumbo at least make a little sense now with the possibility that you just got the topic wrong ?
First off, the topic of the thread is US/EU Ban Wave. There is NOTHING in the title to suggest I should be talking about WHY people cheat. Even if, I have covered all the excuses or, as you want to say, explanations under the 3 bases. Which you have so thoroughly made my point for me.
Let's talk about the bold part, and the reason your logic is flawed. Yes, that is an excuse covered under Time-Sink. You don't have the time, you don't get the goods. It's like anything else in life. You can't go to college, you don't get the degree. You don't work, you don't get money. Trying to justify and "explain" the situation is utterly ridiculous.
What you are doing is called, using Weasel Words. You are attempting to challenge that your "explanations" are somehow different from an excuse. It isn't. You have said so yourself. Here is a prime example:
Now, when you are trying to "explain" why you cheat on the internet. No one cares. We don't care if you are late to work, it can be explanation. It just doesn't matter. You're failing to realize this. Your "explanations" are falling on deaf ears, and unwilling participants.